Anonymous
Years ago

Forestville Zoning

When will supervisors grow some !!! and tech and eject persistent offenders of running teams of talls in zone. Changing zones to try and fool umps, ignoring warnings again and again and no penalties given.... Win fair and do what is right for basketball and play by the rules .... no respect for coaches or supervisors tonight !!!!!!

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anonymous  
Years ago

Play footy

Reply #460155 | Report this post


PlaymakerMo  
Years ago

I would ask if the OP knows the definition of a zone... but the answer is all too obvious.

Reply #460158 | Report this post


+  
Years ago

goes on all the time - we have been pulling our hair out - but half the refs don't know the bylaw on it anyway and how to action it.

Reply #460163 | Report this post


Annon  
Years ago

What age group was this at?

Reply #460193 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

12's. How can 1st years develop when clubs like Forestville field 2nd year teams of bigs that persistenly zone and clubs like Magic in 2's (wide age group problem) and 3's with top age players that are good enough for 1's and Centrals fielding 1 teams in 2's. Basketball in our state lose potential players in this first year summer season that do not continue but may be late bloomers. Potential guards without height but great skill and game IQ can not penetrate zones at this age or make the long range shots. This is why Zones were busted and Vic JBL now about to stop zones too. Well done Forestville you'll win State Champs but you will not be respected. Not good for the Sport. Poor form on BSA not addressing the issue but no surprises, you can't boot a Forestville Coach but you can other clubs for questioning and getting frustrated that no one will address it. Footy and Netball are the real winners.....

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Anonymous  
Years ago

True. On the Centrals issue, I heard that BASA tried to convince centrals to put their teams in Div 1 and Centrals refused. It's just lazy and all they did was harm the development of their own players. The lunatics are running the asylum there. Clueless!

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The coach of the opposition should force the point by playing an obvious zone for a few minutes OR ALTERNATIVELY...forget about the result, explain to his / her players that it is summer season and means stuff all and continue to develop their kids

On the Centrals issue. Not a big deal if they think their kids would get pumped, The best Div 2 side should be allowed to enter Div 2 in their place and Centrals should have to earn their spot back by winning Div 2 in future.
A bit like Victoria really I suppose

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Anonymous  
Years ago

So if Centrals put the team in d1 and they get pumped every week, there will be posts about how they need to go down and it's not good for the game (like the under 14 girls woodville/south post a few months back) or if they come 5th in div 2 (boys) there's posts whinging about how it's unfair...... People just want something to whinge about. Worry about your own club not Centrals.

In regards to the original post, maybe the coach should teach the kids a zone buster? Having coached in the 14s age group before I agree it is frustrating, but you can't dwell on it. Parents having a tantrum on here saying it's unfair isn't good for the kids, they should be teaching thier kids to work around obstacles. Not get upset and whinge about them. Most teams in 12s/14s that play zone would have never seen a zone buster offence, and would have no idea what to do about it! Would be quite ironic them playing a defense that they think you don't know what to do with, and instead you show them an offense they don't know how to gaurd! Look for solutions to the problem, not excuses for a loss. And definetly don't stoop to thier level and play a zone back, that's not helping your kids.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Lunatics running the asylum? Their results are on the up and better than a lot of clubs.

They're actually getting kids wanting to play for them.

What club are you involved in? Prob too gutless to say

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Annon  
Years ago

Thats because kids don't know the rules and love to win... Doesn't pay off in the long run... or State teams would be stacked with Forestville teams. Yes there are many from there in state but they are a big club so law of averages says that happens. All other clubs feel the same way about the issue so don't point fingers to single out individuals or clubs. It's about the sport thriving in this state and further afield... Perhaps other clubs are less selfish...

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Annon  
Years ago

Thats because kids don't know the rules and love to win... Doesn't pay off in the long run... or State teams would be stacked with Forestville teams. Yes there are many from there in state but they are a big club so law of averages says that happens. All other clubs feel the same way about the issue so don't point fingers to single out individuals or clubs. It's about the sport thriving in this state and further afield... Perhaps other clubs are less selfish...

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Annon  
Years ago

Oh, forgot to mention, central city teams always fair well in numbers due to location and demographics and nice facilities too.......

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Anonymous  
Years ago

And thier catchment area is more densely populated. Centrals southern and Eastern may geographically have the largest catchment areas, but it's all relative to population density.... And not all kids want to drive 3 hours for basketball.... And if the do drive say 2 and a half hours from ports pirie to get to gawler, what's an extra half hour -45 minutes to get to hillcrest/mars. If you've already made a 2 and a half hour comitment you don't care about another hour to get to an inner city team if they offered best development opertunities

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Anonymous  
Years ago

I think some parents would travel that extra hour to get to a club that offers that of there son or daughter had a lot of potential.

Doesn't stop the likes of Sturt trying to poach the good players off these clubs. They even try and poach good players that have been at centrals from the beginning and are local.

Get of centrals back. If it's that easy why aren't southern and eastern as strong in the boys group (this isn't a knock on those clubs either, it's for these people on here that are pathetic and negative cause one of the big clubs that knock and are negative)

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Bruce  
Years ago

Centrals overall is still a struggling club - no div 1 under12's has been an issue off and on for quite a few years Their girls program has always struggled and still is , but a couple of strong boys teams offers some hope of improvement for the club overall - but they struggle to find the coaching and player depth that many more established clubs have . Let's hope that they can improve - basketball in the north needs them to be a strong and well organised club

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Coaching depth is the problem for centrals. Good clubs produce coaches who come through playing ranks of a well coached, successful program. Centrals doesnt have that luxury.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

really like sturt?

how many of their div 1 coaches are sturt people? 1?

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Centrals are strong in boys coaches in u14, u16 and u18. I don't see the problem. They offer better and more experienced coaches than some other clubs.

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00  
Years ago

I am sick of blundering refs - kids who aren't interested in the game (just want their pocket money) and only blow their whistle when the head ref is around or they feel like it.

we train twice a week and travel all over town only to be managed by refs (usually kids) who have not got any concept of managing a game or depth of rules.

Saw a kid today step over the line on the inbounder - take the ball from the inbounders hands - ref could not have cared less - the kid inbounding even knew it was illegal - IMO might have had something to with it being the refs club as well.....

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Bruce, what club are you associated with?

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Well considering they don't have good coaches centrals are doing well in the boys. Second in state champs last year and three of the top 5 div one teams ATM

Bruce are you referring to the established clubs like Norwood west woodville north south who centrals at a div 1 level are doing better than????

Seriously no idea at all

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Anonymous  
Years ago

I think Bruce is stuck in a previous decade and actually has no idea about recent results.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

So Meseche gets beaten and has a sook... Blah Blah Blah

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Bruce  
Years ago

hey anon i agree lions going well in a couple of boys groups but you would have to be concerned at not having either div 1 in u12 boys or girls !! And it is a fact that centrals doesnt have the depth in players and coaches that some other clubs have - not being critical just stating the obvious !! lets hope the success of the 14 and 16 boys leads to improvements all through the club especially in the poorly performing girls teams

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Are you a Centrals parent Bruce?

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Its not Mesecke sooking. An observer who was watching the game who made an independent assessment of what was and has been happening. Don't make assumptions. Some people have the best interest of basketball for all juniors at heart not just a club or individuals. People do exist that care about that. We have to remember 9 & 10 year olds are in the hands of refs, coaches and supervisors. We owe it to them to provide them with a game that is within the boundries of the rules on a fair playing field win or lose. It is the right thing to do, that is why we have rules.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Why are people getting on centrals??? Get on some other clubs like south north woodville Norwood who are performing worse (well don't get on any team really but why aren't people getting on them).

Or is it people from the more "elite" clubs who are central bashing cause some of their teams cant compete so it's easier to get stuck into the club.

Centrals should be proud of where they are as they used to be the easy beats of the competition yet now there are some teams like 16 boys and 14 boys that most teams cannot get close to.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

OP
If your coach was up to it they would run a play to prove the zone with the supervisor in attendance. I would be very surprised if it was a zone. Trying to teach zone takes many hours of practice which I'm not sure a coach would waste on this age group. Perhaps it was split line defensre? Can be easily confused with zone but run a play against it to prove once and for all. Just putting it out there!

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Pretty sure that it they did and when approached by the umpire in change the Forestville coach in question went on a tirade and abused the BSA rep.

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.  
Years ago

am i right in some of the court supervisors are not refs anyway ? how do they go arbitrating a dispute then ?

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Annon  
Years ago

Zone proven numerous times via plays, coach spoken to but changed the zone, etc, etc..... No they weren't playing the split line, yes 3 sec in offensive key too..... Not 1 called......

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Anonymous  
Years ago

No ones playing a zone. Have heard and read this for years - different team every year. Guessing you are the coach of the losing team, I suggest you need to understand the difference between a zone and split line. Suggest also you talk to some of the top junior coaches around the league to understand how hard it would be to teach kids at this age how to play a zone let alone remember it on court. Or if you truely believe it is happening, coach your kids to deal with it.

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AJ  
Years ago

From my limited experience of watching juniors I have not seen teams playing a zone. I have seen coaches instruct players to just stand in the key (not split line D)to plug holes to avoid opposition scoring layups.

Not a zone but not man on man either.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Are you a Centrals parent Bruce? From Kadina?

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Annon  
Years ago

AJ, that's the point as well as zone Defence, BSA clearly state Man to Man Defence. That doesn't mean you have to be right on top of a player but clearly guarding a player. It is complex but certain coaches know the difference and clearly instruct unbeknown to players to play in a zone or not Man up. The kids and parents usually have no idea. At the end of the day the supervisor agreed it was zoning which comes in many forms. The opposition tested the zone and it was proven it was and still persisted. Penalties should occur to prevent the zone. This is not about winning or losing. It is about development of all players which is why Zones are prohibited in lower juniors in SA and now VJBL is doing the same, for the good of the sport long term. While a player is young and tall it is all good but as you move up in the age groups and the game and players develop talls can fall away as they have not learnt other elements of the game. The flip side is the younger, less experienced or smaller of the lower age groups can not penetrate the zone or take outside shots. It is far more complex at a young age to penetrate a zone than to man up and develop all your core skills. It levels the playing field for all players to develop more aspects of their game. Zones and complex plays come in late junior years. Some teams develop split line Defence and more complex plays early and that shows in the stronger clubs through the type of players they pick up or good coaching and resources. Man to man allows the other clubs to have opportunity to penetrate. If the stronger clubs zone with talls and get away with it there is not much chance for all teams to penetrate let alone win in the lower junior years. This is not my rule, but a strategy developed by those who do know basketball and now Vic following SA so for people to target those questioning this call on zones is targeting their grief to the wrong people. Those 'complaining' are frustrated and may have gone through all the right channels are now venting here and perhaps hoping that someone from BSA may or leaders in clubs take action for the good of junior Basketball ball. It also allows those doing the right thing to feel vindicated and to push on, keep testing zones, keep calling the supervisor to take action and who knows one day if enough people pressure BSA they may actually take action and implement penalties. If it happens often enough players and patents will question and develop an understanding of the issue. It will after all be in the best interest of the player. Done..

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.  
Years ago

the poster saying deal with it or play an offence.

i.e. u12s cant hit 5m pull up jumpers.

That is like saying "the defence is holding my singlet coach" and coach says thats ok we will just go out and hold theirs as well.

not the answer - team breaks the rules by zoning - they should be reprimanded.

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PlaymakerMo  
Years ago

Those who know the least, know it the loudest.

Armchair critics unite!

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Anonymous  
Years ago

PlaymakerMo = Forestville coach.

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PlaymakerMo  
Years ago

PlaymakerMo = sick of whining, naïve anons.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Oh, the irony of PlaymakerMo calling anyone else naïve.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

so "PlaymakerMo = Forestville coach" = correct?

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Yes, one who loves zones.

Reply #460513 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Who is the forestville coach? He has the right to abuse BSA head refs doesn't he? He after all has Paul's support and Bet that coach doesn't get match bans.

Paul Arnott
Competitions Manager at Basketball SA
Adelaide Area, Australia | Sports
Current: Video Analyst at Adelaide 36ers, Competitions Manager at Basketball SA, Basketball Coach at Forestville Eagles Basketball Club
Past:Basketball Coach at Basketball SA, Senior Software Engineer at Freescale Semiconductor, Junior Coaching Director at Forestville Eagles Basketball...

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spectator  
Years ago

I watched both u14s div1 finals and saw zones in both games. Centrals (sorry centrals fans, lot of air time here) were one. The woodville coached pointed it out n ran plays to expose it but was evident court supervisor had no idea. Other than that centrals had a cracker game. The 2nd game at the end sturt played zone tatics and i was amazed that forestville with 4 coaches on the bench could not pick this up. They basically sat 3 players on the big guy in the key and got the ball back n scored, 10 down in 4th to win, good work sturt, way to tough it n not get caught.thought one of the 4 coaches would of noticed, n even if court supervisor was advised n still nothing, they could have ran a play to work around it, but they didnt n lost. Think its time to scrap the rule all together get on the melbourne train n have zones, as we love to brag bout teams making classics who then can play zone. A zone does help teach good split lune d awareness, n on offence teaches u to move the ball. Has its perks.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Sure. Thats why Victoria just band zones in u12's.

Nice try though.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

I think spectator has no clue on a zone

You realise that a zone defense players defend an area and not a player????? Crazy hey.

Well having seen the centrals game, their players were clearly guarding players as they moved from left to right and high to low. Now if they were in a zone, wouldn't those defenders merely stay in the same area?

Now if a big sags at the foul line when there is an on ball screen and encourages the perimeter shot, that's not a zone. Also from what I saw in the second half the big played above the foul line.

Centrals big is long and is able to challenge shots most boys cannot and if you watch most times he's helping if on the split. So once again that's not a zone!

Woodville at times actually had three players on the big even before he caught the ball. How's that man to man? Not saying it's a zone, but they're not guarding a player each.

At least ubderstand a zone before you come on here and say a team played it when they didn't.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Hey spectator please enlighten us on what plays were run to expose it? You seem to know a lot for a mere "spectator".

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Anonymous  
Years ago

I agree with the anon above - spectator has no clue.

I also saw both U/14 finals and can say none of the four teams zoned. Split line defense, and dropping on screens, is all legal and part of man defense. Amazed as you may be, I'd say the Forestville coaches didn't notice as they have far more basketball knowledge than you do!
Matter of fact, I think the whole U/14 grade has been good this year with it's coaches playing man defences.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

I'm still waiting for "spectator" to explain the plays that woodville ran to show this so called zone?

I really think this person is clueless and has no idea at all.

Next he will be saying it's the only reason centrals won the game.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

The 'split line' v 'zone' argument will go on forever.

Some would say good coaching is bending the rules to get as big an advantage as you can.

Many coaches plug their big guy on 'split line' pointing at a weakside offensive player to show they are responsible for someone. Unfortunately if that player moves, cuts, rotates to ball side they don't follow their player they just point at the guy on weak side, see I'm just playing split line and the other players switch. Happens all the time. 4 players man-to-man, 1 defender zoning.

Two issues with the current rule.
1) No one knows the process. Coaches often abuse referees about it, abuse other coaches over it, abuse Court Supervisors over it. Read the By-Law it refers to another document which is a BA document, isn't followed and isn't descriptive of the SA Basketball model. Makes it hard for the correct process to be followed.

2) Court Supervisors are Zone Busters. Most are average or past referees without the training required. Others are just people around basketball, again without the training required. Makes it hard for a Zone to be seen when the only people able to enforce it don't know what a zone is. I've seen this happen on many occasion when a team follows correct process followed by a Court Supervisor watching play after play scared to enforce the rule because they're not sure. This happened just last Friday night.

Either enforce the rule properly with a clear process which is District specific (like it used to be), train current staff or place zone busters in stadiums or scrap the rule altogether.

The current system is embarrassing and as usual the coaches that bend the rules benefit most.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

I see the U/18s aren't the only massive sook group at Woodville. 14s following suit?

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Anonymous  
Years ago

There seemed to be a complaint made against centrals for playing a zone when they weren't. Yet they has two or three players on centrals big even before he caught the ball but centrals never mentioned it until woodville did.

Yes I'm involved with centrals and I was sitting behind their bench listening in and I clearly heard their coach say that if they want to put more players on their big then they're good enough to score elsewhere. That's what they did their guards hit threes and were able to get into the paint and finish or dish to open perimeter due to two or three players staying on the big.

The score was something like 70 to 20 so why would you even mention it?

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