Glenn S
Years ago

Advantage/Disadvantage rule clarification

I have been inquiring from various officials to explain the advantage rule and I have received a few differing thoughts from them so I looked up the rule in the FIBA Rules and found this&

Art 47.3 - When deciding on a personal contact or violation, the officials shall, in each instance, have regard to and weigh the following fundamental principles:

" Consistency in the application of the concept of 'advantage/disadvantage', whereby the officials should not seek to interrupt the flow of the game unnecessarily in order to penalise personal contact that is incidental and which does not give the player responsible an advantage nor place his opponent at a disadvantage.

Now this tells me that the rule is clear about advantage / disadvantage with incidental contact but the concern I have is what do the officials find to be players advantage / disadvantage.

Examples
A) A player gets slowed down on offense by incidental contact in the back court that is to the disadvantage of the offensive team (foul)

B) A player gets bumped while making an assist (meaning made basket) pass no disadvantage either way (no foul)

I guess my question is why aren't all fouls in the back court called as there is no advantage to the offensive team but a clear advantage to the defensive team. Not only is the contact beneficial for the slowing of the offense but also if a team is allowed to make contact in the back court the physical wear on a team is very much to the disadvantage of the offensive team.

I would love to hear from any officials on this matter, I am not having a go I just want to understand what is going to be call and what will be let go.

Glenn

Topic #3430 | Report this topic


Impaler  
Years ago

Back court fouls in a one on one situation create many problems for officials, coaches, players and spectators alike. The offensive team always feels hard done by if their point guard gets hacked while brining the ball up the court, but if no clear disadvantage is apparent (such as losing control of the ball, or having to stop a dribble) the official should not really have to make a call, unless in the context of the way the game has been played (over-physically and rough) the referee make have to make a 'soft' call to make the players aware that the officials are aware of the physicality of the game. But in the same token, if the officials have let the game be played this way a call like this may seem overly soft as heavier contact has occured in rebounding or off-ball situations. Now all this may sound confusing, as it is, and is what creates what some people call 'inconsistency'.

An easy way to establish a back court one-on-one call is to watch the defense and referee the offense, meaning dont fall into the trap of penalising the defense just because the offense makes it look alot worse than what it is.

Example 1-
One-on-one backcourt play, offense drives takes the ball up the center and the defense pressures them with boy contact, not enough to loose the ball but enough to hassle them, offense gets the pass off to the wing at the same time a harder bump occurs,
-the pass goes to the directed player - no foul needed

-pass goes out of court - foul needed.

I remember an older referee telling me that we should never cancel a basket that is caused by the defense, if so we have not allowed proper implication of the advantage/disadvantage rule. Meaning a player on the drive gets hacked hard, but then continues the lay up and scores the bucket. We call a foul, basket waived, side ball. We dont call a foul, player continues, basket scored. Now i dont think many coaches or players alike can complain about that situation (unless in the bonus or a really hard foul).

Best bet talk to more experienced referees such as Nathan Wieland, Phil Haines, Andy Filmer, these blokes know exactly how to call advantage disadvantage.

Reply #39394 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

"defense pressures them with boy contact, not "

BOY contact ??? what the !!!

Reply #39396 | Report this post


ref  
Years ago

if it is a physical game - little things will slip - as refs feel like they will spoil the game.

if it is a timid game - the refs may pick more up

I suggest you establish a brief forum with the referees before EACH INDIVIDUAL GAMe and find out where there head is at - then work from there

as a ref I know - that I seek to find some common graound with the rule book, players and coaches

Reply #39397 | Report this post


Libertine  
Years ago

In a game at MARS, a guy pulled my shirt as I ran past him on a fast break - his hand slipped off my shirt and I kept going but slowed and turned waiting for the whistle - ref said because I could keep going I had an advantage....never mind the unsportsmanlike foul.

Reply #39402 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

so did the grabbing of your shirt going to make you miss the shot?

did it make you break your stride or put you off?

or did YOU decide there should be a foul and stop and cause yourself a disadvantage?

Reply #39408 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

libertine - an unsportsmanlike foul must be 'hard' as defined in the rule book.

Although in 9/10 cases a shirt pull would be an Unsportsmanlike Foul, if you make a cut and have an open cut to the basket, why would you stop, for any reason.

Reply #39417 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

BOY contact ??? what the !!!

i think that should read body contact

Reply #39419 | Report this post


Libertine  
Years ago

I was behind the halfway line on a steal, the shirt pulling clearly slowed me down - there was no-one in front of me - his teammate meanwhile had caught up in front - consequently I slowed down! The ref told me no disadvantage because i had kept going past the initial guy I stole the ball off, despite me slowing down with a guy hanging off my shirt for a second!

It's such a subjective rule, prone to inconsistent calling. (ie) Is it an advantage to let a guy go who gets fouled on a cut but then has an open layup but he misses a shot - where if you had called the foul he would have had 2 bonus free throws?

Reply #39427 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

As I believe basically there is no such thing as advantage/disadvantage on a shot. Most referee's usually put it as "protect the shooter". Basically if a player is going to the basket and gets bumped and and continues through with his 2 steps the foul should be called and player to the line whether he makes the shot or misses. That's how I see it as anyway. I may be wrong.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

and libertine he is assured of getting two fouls shots

two fouls shots does not equate to two points. most teams are lucky if they shoot at 70% from the foul line across a season.

refs are often in a no win situation they allow the player to go to the basket and they miss an easy layup which they may have missed even if they hadn't been bumped. they are in the wrong the foul should have been called.

they call the foul, the foul is only a bump the player continues the dribble scores the basket the ref calls the foul, cancells the basket because the player wasn't in the act of shooting and they shouldn't be calling soft fouls, let them play!

who would want to be a referee.

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Libertine  
Years ago

Indeed. I feel this only confuses it further - any contact by an opponent in bball is really a disadvantage, isn' it?

Reply #39439 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Comes down to respect of judgement. How many times do you see a senior referee get question on there judgement of advantage/disadvantage of a situation? Hardly ever. Rookies cop it all the time.

As has been made clear by this thread its a matter of each individuals perception of a situation. It's time people in SA accept and trust a referees judgement instead of bitching because it didn't work out in their favour or wasn't the same judgement them themselves made.

Reply #39440 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Add to this - if the ball carrier is the first to initiate contact, then the defender bumps or holds because of it.

Do you call an immidate offensive foul or call the defensive foul (2nd contact)?

Or do you just let it go?

Who'd want to be the ref!?!

Reply #39459 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

i love the ones where the offence jumps into the defensive player, leans against him or her making all the contact then bitches when they miss the shot cause they should have been awarded a foul.

how many players blame refs for bad shots and or bad passing mistakes.

Reply #39482 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

I can't understand the idea of advantage/disadvantage in basketball particularly when players can alter their play when they get into foul trouble or getting free throws when in the penalty. Surely not calling these fouls then disadvantages the team against which the foul occurred. And also, what about the person shooting or driving to the basket, is fouled and after the foul but in the same play puts up the shot and gets it in. Waved away - surely this is a disadvantage to the offensive player. I'm confused!!

Reply #39489 | Report this post


DJ  
Years ago

I'm of the opinion that a foul is a foul, no matter where it occurs or in what situation.

Ref's can call games tight or let teams bump around a bit, as long as they are consistent for the whole game than I'm happy.

Players need to adjust to the style of play, but how can you adjust when one ref will call the shirt pull and another will not

Reply #39492 | Report this post


Just Plain Stupid  
Years ago

I agree that players should be called for fouls if they make contact in the back court.

I agree with some of the posts above, if players are called for fouls then they can either stop fouling or foul out. Plus they will give the other team foul shots.

Basketball is a game of skill, not force. Plus, people should consider the impact on the point guards head if somebody is able to push them all game. Imagine if you had to do your job with somebody pushing you every time you were doing something. You wouldn't perform very well.

Keep it clean and make defence play with their feet and position. Rather than pushing and holding.

Reply #39496 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

'And also, what about the person shooting or driving to the basket, is fouled and after the foul but in the same play puts up the shot and gets it in. Waved away - surely this is a disadvantage to the offensive player. I'm confused!!'

play dribbles gets fouled, foul called player continues on and shoots the ball - scores - basket cancelled player was fouled when not in the act of shooting

player dribbles picks ball up and commences shooting action/lay up in fouled, points scored counted player was fouled in the act of shooting.

player has ball in hand jumps into offence and receives a charging foul, points go in - basket cancelled player was in control of the ball

player shoots ball then jumps into defensive player, score counts pushing foul, foul occured after release of the ball

Reply #39498 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Anon (39498),

Thanks for the clarification but my point is in the first two scenarios you listed isn't the offensive side disadvantaged by having a foul called in this instance when something similar in the back court would be let go?

Reply #39535 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

if a player isn't disadvantaged by a slap to the arm ie if he/she continues to dribble without devatation or if they make the pass without trouble why call the foul, like when a player hangs a toe nail on the line when nobody is playing defense why should it be a violation what bloody advantage did the play gain.

if every infringement of the rules was strictly called the game would take 4 hours to complete cause all the players would be fouled out and the clock would be constantly stopped.

please let some sanity rule and allow the disadvantage/advantage come into play.

to repeat what impaler said earlier
'Best bet talk to more experienced referees such as Nathan Wieland, Phil Haines, Andy Filmer, these blokes know exactly how to call advantage disadvantage.'

if not talk to them watch them ref
all three are very approachable.

Reply #39557 | Report this post


Paul Smith  
Years ago

Check out the article in FIBA Assist Issue 11 about the Principle of Offensive Threat written by Fred Horgan and member of the rules wrting group for FIBA.

I also just found the article in the resource library on the SA referees website. http://sarefs.basketball.net.au/fs_home.asp
http://www.fiba.com/asp_includes/download.asp?file_id=429

Reply #39587 | Report this post


Paul Smith  
Years ago

I guess the problem with interpretation is everyone has a different definition of what is sportsmanship and fair play.

38.1 Rules of conduct
38.1.1 The proper conduct of the game demands the full and loyal cooperation of the members of both teams (players, substitutes, coaches, assistant coaches and team followers) with the officials, table officials and commissioner.
38.1.2 Each team shall do its best to secure victory, but this must be done in the spirit of sportsmanship and fair play.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

i'm sure i know you paul smith ~ Fred Horgan is top man

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Pickles Housemate  
Years ago

My greatest concern is that Impaler (#39394) discusses "boy contact" and uses the name Impaler in the same post!!!

all jokes aside, i prefer the umpire/s (if lucky enuff to have 2!!!) discuss with themselves before the game the way they wanna call it and be consistent.

In senior grades, if players can't adjust their thinking to the way the game is being umpired (hard or soft calls) then there is a problem. I'll say it again, as long as the umpires are consistent in their calling, i don't care if they do or don't allow an advantage.

Reply #39796 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

pickles - the problem with that is that games develop often differently to how you may want to call it. often it is the first time-out, quarter when umpires will need to decide how to call it.

Reply #39807 | Report this post




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