Anonymous
Years ago

BNSW Country Premier League Round 3

Big weekend of Basketball in Wollongong and a few big results too.

In the 16 Men, Newcastle had a big upset win over the previously unbeaten Illawarra side and finished 4/4 for the weekend. Are they ones to watch for State? Or will the Hawks bounce back in whats looking like a two horse race?

In the 18 Men, Gosford City move into equal 2nd place with a hard fought 1 point win over a star studded Illawarra team whilst Newcastle go outright 1st with 4 wins from 4. Looking like a very close age group when all top 4 teams have their full squad available to play. Should be a lot of exciting games to come.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Anyone know how the results went in 14 boys?

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Wonderer  
Years ago

Great to see the Country Boys program producing such great games. Not sure why the Newcastle 16B win was seen as an upset, it's not like they are without talent and capable. Will be close all season, a shame there seems not to be too much competition outside of those 2.

In the 18M any of the top 4 could get the W with a full Spain, although CCW without Hodgson are a different level.

Looks like the top 2 in 14s are resolved, so teams qualifying for 14 clubs can start to get organised a bit earlier this year. Interesting to see that no Gosford teams will qualify, again. Not sure what's different about their development program, but they were a certainty for quite a few of the more recent years, but missing out both last year and this....unless my Maths is terrible, which is possible.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Wonderer - agreed. Newcastle's win over Illawarra in the 16B shouldn't come as a surprise but is perhaps only an upset seeing that no team has beaten them yet. Fairly sure that is John Hargreaves' first loss in over 1 year as a coach!

In the 18M its extremely hard to split the top 4, but I don't think Waves or Gosford have quite the depth that Newcastle and Illawarra have. Both teams have had two players selected in the Australian U17 squad which is remarkable. Should make for a great remainder of the season.

As for 14M, seems as if Newcastle have overtaken Gosford in terms of qualifying teams for 14 Nationals. Looking like they'll get both a boys and girls team qualified for the second year running whilst Gosford will miss out altogether for the second year running. Not sure what is being done differently up there in Gosford. For mine, the coaches seem to have strayed from the Triangle offence and a relentless half court trap that served them well for so many years.

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Anon  
Years ago

16M, Newcastle v Illawarra - saw a bit of that game. Newcastle had one of those games where they could not miss (count your lucky stars when that game comes along) and Illawarra were a squad of seven, and even those seven were the walking wounded. Will be an interesting match-up next time if Illawarra is back to full strength.

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watcher  
Years ago

Gosford are doing ok in EJL with some good results for the lower ages. Maybe a lot of bottom age in CPL?

http://www.nswbasketball.net.au/media/files/Round%203%20Standings%20Newcastle-Maitland.pdf

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Anonymous  
Years ago

They also would have qualified their boys for Nationals last year if the qualification process were the same as this year. The only time they lost to Newcastle all year was the Country Champs game that decided the Nationals bid.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Gosford are still very strong.

Reply #473881 | Report this post


watcher  
Years ago

looking at the BNSW web site , the junior state cup and junior state champ info is all for 2013.


Where is the info for 2014?

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Yeah, and the BA Junior Champs website still has 18s with a little 'next event' star, and no website for 16s, less than 2 months out from the Championships. It is, generally speaking, an incredibly poorly run sport.

For what it's worth, I heard that the tender process for State Champs/Cup has been held up by someone being away from work, and should be resolved 'soon.'

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Anonymous  
Years ago

So, no team from Illawarra/NSW Country has ever lost a game unless it's been due to injuries by the sounds of it...

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watcher  
Years ago

on info, anyone seen the pools and draw for nsw junior country champs??

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Anon  
Years ago

"So, no team from Illawarra/NSW Country has ever lost a game unless it's been due to injuries by the sounds of it..."

That's a giant leap!

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Draw for Country to be released this Sunday.

No one is suggesting that Gosford isn't strong, they still are a powerhouse. However, on any measure, they aren't dominating as much as they used to and appear to have been surpassed by Newcastle.

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watcher  
Years ago

i would agree newcastle have improved over the last couple of yrs. Didnt gosford win best country club based on performance in 2013.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

I think there's also an argument that Gosford has been the big loser out of the CPL re-structuring, because they're not picking up extra kids in the way that Newcastle and Illawarra are. Newcastle u16s have a key piece from Port Macquarie; two years in a row now Illawarra u14s have had a starter (two this year) from Shoalhaven. It makes geographic sense for kids from smaller associations to play at Newcastle and Illawarra. Only CCYC could logically feed to Gosford, and they've been fielding CPL teams of their own.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

That's true to some extent but Gosford also aren't producing the same talent as they have been in previous years.

Look, for example, at the recently named NSW Country U16 Team for Nationals - not 1 Gosford player made the team. Pretty big considering they are top 3 club in Country NSW.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Sure, but you can't cite the fact that they didn't qualify for Nationals in 14s AND the fact that they couldn't get a kid into the 16s Country team in the same age group as cumulative evidence. I'm not saying they haven't dropped off, but I think it's too early to conclude that with any certainty.

Illawarra would probably struggle to qualify for 14s Nationals this year if it weren't for the two kids from Shoalhaven. Illawarra's u12s are running last in CPL. Their u14 girls will struggle to make finals. If you pick and choose your age groups, everyone's struggling.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

It's been interesting reading this thread develop and I thought I might chime in with some observations.
I think by and large, Gosford City has struggled to adapt to CPL, minus a couple age groups, I think they were used to being the big fish in the old CJL, but then would come unstuck at state champs, and to a lesser extent at country champs. Unfortunately, the same is now being found out, except for some really good older age groups, with some very classy and "winning" kids, Gosford has found that they are just another 3rd - 6th club in CPL behind Newcastle and Illawarra, I put Newcastle number 1 now, look at the CPL ladders, their worst performing team is coming 3rd!! As for Illawarra, the u12 boys are running 4th out of 4, and whilst the rest of their boys program is up and running, the same cannot be said for their girls program, without obviously knowing about their u12 girls where there is no CPL.
U14 girls are sitting 4th but with a 5-6 record, u16 girls are sitting 6th with a 3-8 record and u18 girls are 5th with a 3-6 record. I know both those teams lost a really good player each from the same family, but even still, those positions are not what we usually equate with Illawarra Basketball.

Now about 5-7 years ago, Gosford City and Newcastle were in opposite places, Gosford City was dominating Newcastle across the board pretty much, save maybe an age group or 2, so what has changed, as it isn't just one age group or one gender where they have passed, it's across the board! I'd be really interested to know from Newcastle people what has changed over those last couple of years, I would hazard a guess and say that getting out to schools has played a part, and I believe that could be an area where Gosford City can and should focus on to get more players playing Terrigal, which would in turn lead to more numbers trialling, more competition for spots and better and more balanced teams.
I don't think Gosford City is that far off from returning to the top, but doing the same thing over and over isn't going to get it done. With The Entrance falling by the wayside, there is an opportunity to get into more schools in the Wyong Shire and tap into that area, I think that is a tap that could sprout some good players.

Bringing in a player or 2 from outside always helps, it has definitely helped the Illawarra u14 boys team, who are a very good team, but with the boys from Shoalhaven has pushed them over the edge, it will be very interesting to see the matchup between them and Norths at State.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents worth, in summary, I believe Newcastle is the number 1 CPL club across the board at the moment, ladder positions are proof of that, Illawarra 2nd and Gosford City 3rd or 4th, probably 3rd, but Western Reds are doing pretty well in their age groups, but some of their teams are another argument, only some of their teams, not all, so don't shoot!!

Discuss away.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Gosford already bring in plenty of outside players.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

I only know of 2 players that play for Gosford City in CPL that don't live in the area and attend school in the area, one is in u18 girls and this is her 2nd season, the other is in u16 boys and I'm pretty sure it's his 2nd season as well, I could be wrong on that though and I stand to be corrected if I am.

Wasn't making that as the excuse for their "struggles" in CPL, was just saying that has pushed the Illawarra u14 boys over the top, they are a very strong, well coached and drilled side and deservedly sit on top of CPL, that was all the point I was making there.

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watcher  
Years ago

agree 100% with Anonymous a couple of threads ago re gosford and CPL.

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Wonderer  
Years ago

It seems this has become a Newcastle vs Gos debate, which is interesting. I have friends who coach in both and in other CPL teams for that matter. It would seem that the resurgence in Newcastle is more to do with a generation of talented athletes and a focus on coaches who are interested in working together to achieve results and much less on anything to do with the schools etc. It's interesting to see the number of coaches now involved in State programs, NITP, CDP etc, which all help with coach development and therefore player development and to ponder whether that is making a difference.

I think the Western Reds experiment is one which should be replicated around regions around the state as it would seem that those more than a couple of hours from Sydney are struggling. Coffs are struggling, some Maitland teams are yet to win a game, albury etc didn't get their entries to CPL accepted. The Reds are tough in quite a few grades and while not specifically from the West, are providing a place for kids and coaches who want to participate at the higher level, without decimating their own leagues.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

The Reds model is fascinating. Their u16 boys include kids who, in Junior League terms, would be West, South and North. It would be nice, I think, to see CPL become effectively a 4-association league, with 4 regional teams supported by BNSW. You could determine the 4 associations based on nominations, or offer automatic qualification to the top two sides in the age group from two years ago, or run a single-weekend pre-season tournament. 90% of the time, those nominations would probably be Illawarra, Newcastle, Gosford, Canberra. It's a format that might even give you a viable u12 competition, not least of all because there would be other teams to play against!

Players choosing to play for a regional side could compete for their home association in the relevant junior league, but players choosing to play for another association team (such as Maitland for Newcastle, Shoalhaven for Illawarra, CCYC for Gosford, etc.) could not. Make the regional sides eligible for State Champs, Country Champs, u14 Nationals.

You'll have outcry from some of the associations who like winning trophies, but it would dramatically lift the standard of the competition and provide a more predictable pathway for kids from smaller associations. The smaller associations would probably actually be better off, as their CPL-capable kids would have a good opportunity, but the weaker end of their top side could play at a junior league level to which they might be more suited. When those smaller associations have an unusually strong year (the current Tamworth u14 girls, last year's Dubbo u14 girls), they can challenge for an association spot, and do it with kids who are used to the standard of competition.

Would that rival VJBL in terms of competitiveness and unpredictability? Surely a league where any team can beat any other team is what we should be aiming for?

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watcher  
Years ago

looking at gosford's web page, they have big numbers in teams playing domestic. u12, u10 look well supported and there is also u8's. i do not think it is a numbers problem that has seen them slip behind newcastle.

Maybe it is just a cycle of ups and downs, as staying on top is very difficult. Maitland also seem to have slipped.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

I know a few of the coaches from Newcastle and they attribute their recent success, particularly in the boys program, to a combination of a few things:

(1) Much higher levels of coach involvement in state team programs/NITP
(2) Appointment of Marty McLean as a new "club coach" (sort of a "technical director" role) to oversee coaching at the club and work with all coaches/teams
(3) The schools program that Newcastle run is apparently up there with the best in NSW. They employ full time staff to visit schools and run after school programs etc
(4) Strength of the domestic competition
(5) They organised regular visits from Mark Watkins and other top NSW/AUS coaches so that their CPL and EJL coaches can learn from them, with the goal of implementing a style of play common across the whole association.

Whilst the current crop of kids up in Newcastle are undoubtedly a particularly talented one (only have to look at NSW Country/AUS squads representation in the last few years), we must remember who is responsible for the players being so talented - the coaches they have up there.

As the previous anon said, only have to look at the current CPL standings - their worst team is placed 3rd. They'd have to be, if not the best club in country NSW at the moment, a close second behind Illawarra.

As for Gosford, they are still a powerhouse in NSW Basketball and probably will be for a while to come. However, their talent appears to be more skewed towards the older age groups, which could be some cause for concern for the powers that be in Terrigal. However a lot of junior basketball is cyclical and can change dramatically season-to-season.

Aside from a few talented individuals, Maitland appear to be very much on the decline from pervious years. Somewhat puzzling given the quality of coaches they have up there with many having coached state teams.

Country Tournament should be a good indication as to who can claim the mantle as #1 club and promises to be very interesting in 3 weeks time. Last year, the associations were ranked:

1. Gosford
2. Illawarra
3. Newcastle
4. Canberra

On results so far in CPL, you'd expect some changes to that. May the best teams win.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Why should a "whole regional" team be able to play 14 Nationals? Why not just enter NSWC...

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Anonymous  
Years ago

really good discussion going on here. From a parents point of view it is hard to see whether the CPL concept has been beneficial for everyone.

Agreed Newcastle are the bench mark of NSW Country Basketball. Doing a lot of great work with the coaches and younger age groups since making some structural changes late last year.
I think some of the Gosford comments are a bit harsh. I think they were the Champion association for Country Tournament last year plus have had 4 or 5 kids invited to attend Aus Camps & plenty of NSWC representatives.
Talking to someone at CPL last weekend, they believe both Newcastle and Gosford work hard out in the schools to promote the sport. There is always the problem of transferring those school visits into domestic teams and then into the rep programs.
Illawarra might struggle in the future just because they don't spend any money on development within the club. They do have some kind of mini ball going on Saturdays, which apparently gets good numbers.
Western Reds are charging and I think they might really start to push some of the so called powerhouse clubs.

Keep up the discussion, good to hear people's different point of view.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Whole region Tassie and NT sides play 14s Nationals. And the only one of those regions that would be 'whole' with any regularity would be the West. Re-draw the regional boundary to count Tamworth as 'East,' so that they along with CCYC and Maitland provide most of the East, and Coffs, Port, Armidale, Grafton, Lismore become the 'North.' How often would an East regional team be top-2 in CPL anyway? CCYC and Maitland teams in CPL currently rank: 6th, 8th, 8th, 7th, 8th, 4th, 5th and 7th.

Gosford, Newcastle, Illawarra and Canberra currently occupy 17 of the 24 finals spots across both genders from u14-u18. Western Reds occupy 4. The other three are Tamworth (u14G), Coffs (u16G) and CCYC (u18M). Which means that outside of the four largest associations and the conglomerate, NO ONE is currently on track to qualify more than one team for finals!!

Anyway, it's never going to happen. You'd have to get the people who wanted it to happen to agree on the details of the model before they took on the people who don't want it to happen. Too many places it could fall down. But CPL currently requires teams to travel incredibly long distances and spend significantly more than the cost of the old Junior League model. And half the games are blow-outs. If going to a regional structure means more kids of the right standard get the opportunity, and the best kids from the big associations have to play more competitive games, I'd be all for it.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

It's the 14 CLUB Nationals, not a development pathway for NSWC! So it looks like you only care about your own back yard, and not basketball as a whole, and certainly not the integrity of the 14 CLUB Nationals. Typical self-centred attitude.
NT is never strong enough to worry about anyway, and a lot of other clubs are not happy that Tas get to send "regional" teams - it's not a good reason for NSWC to do it! Esp. when you have strong team representation at 14s anyway from NSWC - Illawarra, Newcastle and Gosford have all had good teams at Boys in the last decade. Not sure about the girls, but reckon I've read of Albury teams when going through the results at the time. So there is no need for it.

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watcher  
Years ago

looking at the standings for CPL, in most age groups there are 2 or 3 teams that should not be there. They have not won games, and are losing by big margins.

The cost of playing in CPL would be far more beneficial spent in other areas. To me, only a couple of teams benefit from CPL due to the blowouts.

Because of the cost and also the ratio of "good games" v blowouts, (I would think more games are 20pts+ than under 20 pts)i am not convinced CPL is giving best value for money.

Is NSW country basketball stronger since the introduction of CPL??/ I am not convinced.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

NSW Country Basketball is undeniably stronger since the start of the CPL.
However this improvement has to do with other factors too (Mark Watkins' influence and oversight of Country Tour trials + selection, improvements in coaching, CDP program)

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Anonymous  
Years ago

The associations we're talking about are stronger - because they were strong to start with and are getting more quality games than they used to (and picking up players from smaller associations with greater frequency...). But I'd agree with the assessment that NSW Country basketball in general has not been strengthened by CPL.

And #339, this has been one of the most civilised threads on Hoops so far... It's a good discussion and would be nice to keep it that way. As you say, there have been a number of strong results from NSW sides at u14 'Club' Nationals in the last few years. But what does it matter what uniform they're wearing? Many SA Country and WA Country kids from smaller associations are privileged to be able to compete with Metro associations in addition to maintaining their Country affiliation. How well would the Centrals u14 Boys go this year if they were only allowed Metro players? The definition of 'club' sides varies from State to State, and BNSW doesn't allow Country/Metro overlap the way SA does, despite the fact that geographically, it is easier for Illawarra and Newcastle to compete against Sydney sides than each other. If you can't grasp the rarity with which any of those regional sides would qualify for u14 Nationals, you might want to consider how valuable your input is. Although, your comment is helpful in demonstrating the many hurdles in the way of any BNSW regional-backed teams as a standard part of CPL.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Actually anon, you are showing YOUR selfish attitude to 14 club nationals, and using it as a pathway for NSWC player development. Thank god people like you have no actual power in basketball.

Centrals country players are fine because they play for Centrals! Now if Sturt, Forestville and South want to put one combined regional team in (say called Southern Districts) then I would have the exact same problem with it.

NSW country teams have a "rarity" of qualifying for country? What rubbish!! Illawarra made about 5 or 6 in the 2000's, including a couple of top 4 finishes with Chewy coaching. McEachin had a Newcastle team easily qualify and was one of the favourites. Numerous Olbach Gosford teams have qualified. Perhaps my input (you know, actual facts) is what fazes you? Rather than your fantasy land where everyone just expects to be happy to play against state regional team rather than club/associations?

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Can we please keep the nasty comments out of this?

This is probably the most civilised thread i've seen on Hoops and the input has been really well articulated and interesting.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

#431, slow down, re-read what's been written, and actually think. I'm not suggesting the NSW Country teams rarely produce great results at u14 Nationals. The Illawarra boys finished third last year, 4th the two years prior to that. Country will qualify two teams every year, because that's how BNSW has structured their qualification system. What I'm suggesting is that if you took the entire remainder of NSW Country's 'southern' region, that regional side would rarely be strong enough to beat Illawarra anyway. The same as if you took the entirety of NSW Country's 'eastern' region minus Gosford and Newcastle, and played that team against Gosford or Newcastle. The big associations are so much stronger, they would still win most of those games.

Your defence of the SA system as being 'ok' because those Country kids play for Centrals seems to me as illogical as my argument seems to you. So you are ok with Gosford and Newcastle kids going to Country Cup in January, then turning around and playing for Norths or Hornsby during the year? It's ok if the Norths side that goes to Nationals this year has Newcastle's two best players and Gosford's two best players, because they're playing for Norths? Of course you are, because that's accepted practice in SA. But you can bet there'd be absolute outrage if it were actually tried in NSW. In NSW, their Country associations are their ONLY associations. The fact that SA is currently conducting State Championships, almost entirely without the presence of Country associations, would be completely unthinkable in NSW.

What's to prevent Western Reds running a domestic competition out of West Wyalong, calling themselves an association, and espousing their eligibility for State Champs and Nationals? Nothing. It's purely a definitional thing.

I'm no fan of what Southern Districts have done, either. But for both SA and NSW, we're talking about kids playing for one team all year, being part of that team when they qualify for Nationals and not representing anyone else at the top level. Southern Districts kids who are recruited into the team for u14 Nationals do not represent the association in any major event UNTIL u14 Nationals.

My point, which I think most people are grasping, is that 'regional' teams would, 99% of the time, provide a competitive avenue for Country kids that would stay within NSW. If, in rare instances, they qualify for Nationals, you know what? Good for them. How about the opportunity go to some kids from the middle of nowhere, who travel hundreds of kilometres every week just to get a game. You're suggesting that it's ok for Armidale kids to go to u14 Nationals, as long as they're wearing Coffs Harbour singlets. The Shoalhaven kids can go, as long as they're wearing Illawarra singlets. The CCYC kids can go if they wear Gosford singlets. The Maitland kids can go if they wear Newcastle singlets.

Like I said, there are a ton of problems with regional teams, well before you get to the question of whether or not they should be eligible for u14 Nationals. Within NSW, there would be significant debate over whether they should even be eligible for State Champs. My perspective would be far from universally popular. But it's not selfish - I'm not from one of those smaller associations that never gets to go. And it's not about undermining u14 Nationals, which is a great event in that it exposes a lot of kids who will never again have the opportunity to compete at a National Championship. It's about providing the best possible opportunity to as many kids as possible, and if the good of the many comes at a very minimal expense to the few, call me a socialist but I'd be in favour.

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