Think you might find the entity/incorporated might be wound up so as they cannot afford to pay the potential damages/legal costs that are about to be awarded against them.
It is a shuffle of the deck chairs so they don't have to pay, think you might find they’ll sell the "name/brand" to a newly created company/entity for a token sum then wind it up.
Most likely won’t effect the day to day running of the club (domestic comps etc), a large companies do this every year for various reasons ranging for tax/employee liabilities, civil liabilities and come thru fine and continue to operate.
The above said it appears on a number of level people have been given the wrong advice so who know what might happen.
The club will continue to exist - where it's making money! That means domestic and junior teams will probably remain.
The senior teams are an absolute financial drain. I'd guess at minimum there won't be a Knox Senior Men's or Women's team playing in any top-tier competition next year.
They spend nowere near that amount.
Can't beleive people thing those sorts of dollars are spend on senior programs!
Obvioudly its junior parents who have no real idea of the true costs.
They aren't playing imports/players $60k each
There are entry fees etc but the even with two solid imports and support players your not ripping up $200K plus per team!
When you look at the total costs of running a SEABL senior program you also have to include all things not just player wages.
Youth league costs, training venue hire costs, uniforms, tape, travel, accommodation, League entry costs, coaches payments, admin costs, game day hosting and venue hire costs etc.
Its easy to see where 500K would go over 2 snr and 2 jnr teams when you look at the bigger picture.
Knox Basketball held an information/discussion forum with Member Club Representatives and Life Members on Thursday evening September 11.
The meeting discussed a broad range of issues and matters primarily emanating from the County Court Judgment involving Knox Basketball last Friday.
No outright/official decisions were made in relation to any item including the option for Knox Basketball to appeal the County Court Judgment. Knox Basketball has up until Friday September 19 to appeal.
In relation to the operations of Knox Basketball it is business as usual with junior and senior domestic competitions and Knox Junior Raider teams competing and training as per normal.
Given the current financial challenges facing Knox Basketball, some difficult decisions will be required, including the likelihood of not entering SEABL teams for the 2015 season.
Please note that there are no plans to make any changes to the junior / senior domestic competitions or Knox Junior Raider programs for season 2014/15. It is basketball operations as per normal.
Its about $70K to enter a team in SEABL and its about $5k pert team in Big v. Imports contracts are min $25k under the dept of immigration visa rules.
Min $10k per SEABL coach and prob about $2k each (or more) for the big v YL coaches.
It starts to add up.
The fact of the matter is there will be no more seabl team next season, And that is because of Eric and his wasted attempt of a law suit have cost kbi so much money that the kids who have worked so hard have had their dreams crushed
It is absolutely disgraceful and so disappointing that the ego of the board and there crusade to get revenge on Wayne Carroll has come before what is truly important. You should all be ashamed of yourselves
Wow...the board slash people who recommend they chased the case must hope they were following legal advice and can maybe make a claim against the solictor in question...if they went against that advice they could be in for some trouble....might be a few caveats slapped on houses!
All this amuses me with people talking about due diligence and such. Many corporations and others have been duped by con men. Do you all neglect to remember Skase, Bond, Pyramid Building Society and many others , all of whom conned millions from banks and investors. To say that a voluntary board should have been able to see through this, is laughable. The banks who gave money to the above people had a multitude of so called financial experts and lawyers at their disposal and it did not help them. Was Wayne Carroll going to make money from the "Microsoft deal",probably. Usually any person who brokers a deal gets a commission. This applies to Financial Advisers, Loan Brokers Insurance Agents and the like. The whole saga reeks of a very good con man who it would appear by all reports is very good at ripping people off. Should have KBI gone after Wayne, possibly, but they should have obtained expert legal advice first. But all this is now in the past, so people instead of blaming every one and the dog,get on with it and put your heads down, ar*se up and help them get out of the sh*t.
A good con man will, 99% of the time get to his target and relieve them of their money or goods. You read about it every day so lets stop the blame game.
Wayne Carroll and Stephen Gordon are both directors in Sixth Man Promotions.
They are also both directors in another company called Stockton To Malone.
Wayne is also a director of SBC Events.
All 3 companies were once registered at 1 Park Crescent Boronia, but now are registered at another address.
Just a statement of facts.
I wonder if Knox Basketball Inc made any payments to these companies?
Noordzy and his white nights stuffed up. They ignored legal advice, they called ex chairman and long serving board member as their key witnesses.
Crotty and Trott gave evidence that totally supported and endorsed Carroll's actions.
What organisation calls their star witnesses without knowing what testimony they were going to give. In cross examination Noordzy admitted he never spoke to or sought feedback from any old board members. If he had done so he have so realised how shaky his case was.
The court transcript clearly says Noordzy was evasive, combative, and not very believable. The judge queried where Noordzy got his information to sue Carroll given he hadn't sought out people with knowledge of the Microsoft deal.
Noordzy has briefed Knox lawyers on his own assumptions based on baseless gut feel. I'm told The Knox lawyers were frustrated as the facts came out realising they were fighting a lost cause.
So to summarise, Noordzy did not do a proper investigation of the facts, he tried to put a caveat on the Carroll family house, he failed twice to accept settlement offers, he briefed Knox lawyers with baseless allegations, and he has cost Knox potentially $400k in a frivolous litigation action.
How can you defend this man? No wonder he is moving permanently to Thailand. It's a pity people like Sewell, Jones, Tarrant, Quinn, Brookhouse have jumped off the board as they were also party to this action at the time.
(Mod: Edited at the request of Rick Vos. "Both Cress and Vos were not members of the Board until well after the dismissal of WC and both did not stand at the subsequent AGM.")
Read the transcript DH. The board following legal advice directed the finance director Waack to set up 6th man and Stockton to Malone. The board directed Carroll and Gordon to be the directors/shareholders.
The companies were set up purely to protect knox's not for profit status. The same reasons apply for SBC events.
None of these companies traded because the Microsoft deal fell over.
The court transcript clearly spells this out. So yes some of your facts are correct but like Noordzy you are trying to mislead people with innuendo and baseless comments.
The judge picked up on this very early in the case yet Knox argued otherwise for 6 days.
Come on Laurier give it a rest - you lost. The members want the truth not the crap you have carried on with for the past 18 months.
All the board that came into power in 2013 need to be thanked for what about is to transpire. LJ was the instigator and sound be held accountable ad well as EN for not following due diligence. Now we are up [email protected]&t creek without a paddle.
Knox will not have senior teams in either seabl, big v or YL next year.. Nothing to do with past management but stupidly of noordzys crew.
How many of these hypocrites remain after Noordzy flies out tomorrow ? Where's Sewell and Joyce now? Came in and personally attacked individuals. Proud of your actions boys?
Knox will not have senior teams in either seabl, big v or YL next year.. Nothing to do with past management but stupidly of noordzys crew.
How many of these hypocrites remain after Noordzy flies out tomorrow ? Where's Sewell and Joyce now? Came in and personally attacked individuals. Proud of your actions boys?
Knox will not field any senior teams nor will they operate under a different name. Stop spreading this crap.
Any decent Knox kid has decided to play footy next year, go to college or are being poached by franks ton as we speak.
Chambers left disenchanted so girls are all ready to jump ship. And Shanahan recruited over Knox kids so the boys programme is already rooted.
So Knox will pay their creditors, clear the decks and start up the senior program in 2 years time.
Any other rumours about big v is wrong.
You lot have nothing better to do than bag the people who are trying to get kbi back to where it was. You all need to get your facts correct before you go off slandering other people. And remember why we are here because you have all forgotten about our KIDS which is the real reason. You have all forgotten another person who was on the board IW.
Having read this and a few other threads its fairly obvious that some people have not read the judges decision, which was made at the end of a case that went for some days. The judge basically didn't accept Noordzy as a credible witness. What was painfully obvious was that the financial problems at Knox had been developing over some time. The Microsoft issue was not the cause. In fact the board thought it was well worth spending a few dollars chasing it as the rewards were great if they came through. We of course know that didn't happen and Gordon was conning everyone. Why then did Noordzy trash Carroll and them pursue a hopeless case against him. The judges decision shows that Noordzy obviously didn't consult with the past board. IInstead he called them as witnesses and they gave no evidence that supported his argument. For example sixth man wasnt Carrolls company. it was set up by knox and carroll was made to run it as a part of his job as CEO. In short, the Knox basketball community owes Carroll an apology and a pile of money. Money that had been wasted as a result of the misguided actions of the board and which need never have been spent. Carroll was prepared to accept a lot less in march this year but now it has cost Knox probably $250-300,000 more because they pressed on when it was a hopeless case. Can someone tell me who is going to answer for this ?
Can't comment on you and Cat but it seems to me that nobody is facing up to the real issues such as;
Is any one going to apologise to Carroll?
How will the judgement and costs of approximately $300-350,000 be paid for?
How much has Knox paid its solicitors?
Who was it who gave the solicitors the information to run this case?
If the case was so misconceived why did Noordzy push it?
Did anyone ever think of the damage this will do to our junior basketball?
I've got tons more questions but there's a couple for starters
Bankruptcy just avoids the questions I asked. If its possible (and I don't think it would be) it would be just another example of Knox failing to face up to its mistakes and deal with them. Surely our basketball community is bigger and better than that (even though a recently departed Thai traveller may not be)
They will not declare bankruptcy!
Senior and junior domestic program's are huge and are the cash cow. Junior Rep program funds itself.
Senior Seabl and Vyc program costs in the order of $250k pay to fund.
KBI will never fold. They will face up to their responsibilities both financial and moral.
I hope the members learn a lesson about whom they elect in future. I doubt people like Joyce, Sewell, Brookhouse, Quinn, Jones,Tarrant and Noordzy will be visible around Knox much in the future.
But if you do happen to run into any of these fine upstanding citizens please see if you can some answers to Deimos' question.
If they are honourable people as Cat suggests then they should be forthcoming with answers.
When WC was the CEO and Knox failed to pay the council over 300,000 in rent (ask the council they simply did not pay the rent bill) anyone know why? Anyone know why tax office was not paid their outstanding money? Anyone know why door keepers were underpaid? Anyone know why money was being spent on more and more staff. That's right because Microsoft were going to ride in and save the day. Forget solid financial management in the meantime lets blow the money and wait for the white knight. A white knight that did not exist and was a fraud because due diligence went out the window. The whole situation is devastating for the association but the EN board did not come to power for no reason. They came to power because rent was not paid, loans were applied for, for 100s of 1000s of dollars, rent was not being paid to the council- the list goes on.
Read the judges decision. The wage under payments etc had been accruing for years. Microsoft were a possible solution and the board thought it was worth spending about 70,000 to try and pull it off. Even though it didn't happen, that wasn't the cause of the problem. It had been brewing for years but some people simply used the situation to advance themselves- and now they've been caught out
Well said but you forgot the phone bill, utilities and contractors who were also not being paid. It won't matter what the facts are these blind sided fools can't accept their mates let KBI down.
Funny how board members could admit it before the AGM and were happy to sprout there thoughts on WC then do a backflip. What I dont get is how WC, BT and AT were very clear at SGM about unauthorised funds being spent. Let's not forget two board members also said they didnt sack WC for fear of him taking the pending sponsorship deal to another association. You tell me how that works if Sixth Man was set up solely for the benefit of Knox. There was only ever going to be one major winner out of the Microsoft deal. Facts are facts and the fact in this case is we (KBI) and the lawyers appear to have totally screwed up the court case. None of that matters though just keep hating on those that didnt get KBI in the mess it is.
Can someone please post the transcripts link so we can all get some facts rather than all the mud slinging that is happening.
This has been a great club for many years and key people need to be put in place to rebuild Knox to where it should be. If it means no senior teams for a year or two, so be it.
In saying that, our kids need a pathway to aspire to and that is my biggest concern.
Here is an answer for you Deimos:
As someone who was present at the meeting last year when WC was questioned about Six Man and his answer was Six Man is my company and has nothing to do with kbi. His answer was repeated back to him and his answer was the the same Yes.So no one owes him an apology.
That is plain wrong. Go back and read over the sgm minutes.
These same minutes were presented in court. The minutes and testimony of witnesses called by Knox clearly spelt out 6th man was a shelf company set up by kbi after receiving legal advice that they needed to protect their not for profit status.
The board instructed Carroll to be their director representative on 6th man..
Maybe you are one of the intellectual giants that briefed knox's barrister?
There are NO LINKS to the court ruling as its not posted on line. Its a PDF of the original paper document handed out inside the court. The PDF was sent to all KBI clubs and can be obtained through them or by asking KBI to email you a copy. Its simple, just ask for it.
Minutes were submitted as discoverable documents goose. Read the transcript and go back reread the sgm minutes.
Wendy Waack sought legal advice and was told kbi need to set up a arms length company to protect KBI not for profit status. KBI Board agreed this shold happen.
Court documents and SGM minutes and KBI witnesses Crotty/Trott all confirmed this.
You are a DH - read the evidence. I'm really starting to believe you may be one of the Noordzy crew who so badly misinformed your legal people and have now cost Knox a bundle.
Go back to polishing caravans Pud, you have no clue and your efforts to undermine FDBA is shameful.
Frankston is a better place and stronger financially now that we have no Jokers around. The faciltiy upgrade will go ahead and so will the Blues.
Pud suffers from the same affliction I see on this forum from time to time, no personal knowledge of what really transpires in association land so they make stuff up to feel empowered.
Ok so here are some facts and people can blame who they want but in the end no one in a position of power at knox for a long time has had a well balanced plan to balance the knox books in a way which not totally reliant on one single financial payout.
When planning for the state basketball centre to be built there was insufficient funds placed (built up) in what was a future fund for this event. There was too much cash being splurged that meant that when they moved into the state centre they were not in a position to deal with the 'unforeseen' costs that presented themselves and whilst I believe SB did a reasonable job there was a reason many of the players nicknamed him the bank of Simon.
WC moved into the state centre and was handed a poison apple with huge unforeseen costs (eg. A scoreboard turning up and council sending it back because neither party had the funds to pay for it) so he needed to find a cash flow that was going to see the KBI prosper, enter the Microsoft deal which was the white night, unfortunately we all no now it was a con but we should not judge WC for being conned it was a well put together plan to rob a lot of people of a lot of money ( the percentage of money this con artist got from knox compared to the many other multiply sources was small)
Unfortunately there was a lack of a second third and forth revenue flow which was needed and this was the mistake made.
The last board came in and ran a lot of good Knox people out of the place and then dicided to put up a rediculous law suit in a simple lazy effort to get fast simple cash in a case they were never going to win and their lack of any foresight meant that it has now crippled the association with a massive court finding it needs to pay out, my only thought here is they didn't have the relevNt skill base to build the associations fiscal position so they took a pot shot in suing WC knowing they would simply walk away if unsuccessful and didn't care of the consequences.
An ugly situation which will take a lot of hard work over a long period of time to fix but unfortunately as I mentioned above a lot of the old knox people seem to have been driven away by the past and some still present board when the association needs EvERY bit of help it needs
seriously - go and read the judges decision. he said at paragraph 58 "KBI established Sixth Man. KBI wanted carroll to be a director of Sixth Man because he was the CEO of KBI. later the Board thought there should be another director. Whilst there was some consideration to making Crotty a director, ultimtaley Gordon became an equal shareholder and director with Carroll."
What is it that you people don't understand. The only person who gave any evidence in that case that suggested Six man was not KBI's company was Noordzy and he had nothing to do with its creation!!! In fact the Judge also said has had doubts about the reliability of Norrdzy's evidence and preferred carroll to Noordzy on any contested point. He found that "the attacks upon carroll were largely unjustified" and that Carroll was "an honest and reliable witness".
Seriously - have a read of it to understand the scale of the disaster that the current board has created.
So anonymous what is it? Was 6th man set up by KBI for its NFP status or Carroll for his personal gain.
When you work it out can you please advise Judge Cosgrave that he got it totally wrong in his decision.
You bloody imbecile - perhaps you should shut up and let people guess you're an idiot rather the opening it and confirming it.
The valid reason was a decision of KBI acting on its own legal advice to create an arms length company to protect its not for profit status. Knox created the companies and installed Carroll as the shareholder and a director
That seems like a valid reason. Crotty and trott said it was and the judge agreed. Also look at the minutes of the meeting of 5 march 2013 on the Knox website and see what crotty said at point 6.
Deimos how come you can see this so clearly but anonymous can only attack me for making exactly the same comments.
Maybe I'm right ? Anonymous are you part of the board who briefed the KBI barrister?
Sounds to me you are in denial. You can get help for that.
So KBI sets up a company for itself but has their CEO as the SOLE director? So KBI CEO could have potentially moved on and retained directorship of KBIs company? Registered address of given company is rumoured to have changed from Park Crescent Boronia(KBI)to home address of CEO once questions by members start getting tricky?............Give me a break..........
Of course it's no secret. The judge has heard the evidence and accepted what KBIs witnesses ( yes, KBIs not Carrolls) said. Acting on their own legal advice KBI (not Carroll) incorporated six man and also six man never received a dollar from KBi. Read the judges decision, it's all fairly simple
In 2007 Basketball Victoria was using Knox Basketball Association as a role model example of how Basketball Associations in Victoria should aspire to be like - I still have a copy of the BVAN Presentation powerpoint with LJ's name on the front page.
While I have nothing to do with Knox it was something our association as well as many others at the time were very impressed with their development & structure and wanted to replicate.
So what went wrong - was it egos, jealousy, mismanagement, bad luck or just a combination of all these.
One thing that is not real clear to me is the financial impact of the decision by Basketball Victoria to have the State Basketball Centre built at Boronia and what significant costs were then incurred by the Knox Basketball Association to service this facility.
It seems more than coincidence that the wheels appear to have fallen off the Knox band wagon after this facility was built.
Significant increased costs & reduced revenue can have a devastating impact on any size business let alone Basketball Associations and that appears to have occurred around this time.
I know if I was involved at Knox I would be questioning the viability of the Association remaining at the SBC if the financial arrangements were not sustainable in the long term.
I'd also be asking what if any legal advice was provided by Basketball Victoria to pursue the course of action taken by its current board which has now cost the Knox Association hundreds of thousands of dollars.
The lack of accountability of individuals at Knox or BV for some of the poor decisions made seems to be a real big issue.
Let’s hope some common sense will prevail and the right people are able to get back in control to turn things back around for the good of basketball.
For Christ sake anonymous read the court transcript. Deimos has, I have yet you keep shooting your mouth off!
The judge has spoken, kbi board minutes confirm it, kbi witnesses testified to it.
Oh hang on I now see where you are coming from. The judge is corrupt, the board minutes have been doctored, and both Crotty and Trott are in collusion with Carroll.
Damn why didn't I twig to your line of thinking earlier!
Let's all now get behind anonymous as our new white knight, vote him as chairman and appeal the court decision based on the 3 points raised above.
Anonymous you are a bloody genius - sorry Deimos I'm jumping off your bandwagon.
The so called State Basketball Centre, should never have been built it's a white elephant. Certainly not enough courts or seating yo warrant that title.
Their was a perfectly good venue at dandenong that was already up and running with sufficient courts, yes it's also the state volleyball centre but that wouldn't stop them from running basketball Vic from their either and pooling recourses/sharing costs as the state government is not generous with grants that's for sure.
Then perhaps this mess would not have grown into the huge financial disaster it now is for Knox basketball, at the end of the day no one wants to see any basketball association go under
It seems to me here that behind the scenes of a lot of "successful" semi professional programs there are a lot of issues hidden behind the game night curtain..
I do wonder if it's worth the SEABL / BigV / BA running some sort of night outlining the fact that maintaining your own backyard is better than spending yourself into trouble for a $20 piece of fabric that hangs in the rafters and places your financials in trouble and then there's the staff cost issues as well.
As a basketball lover I cant help be slightly worried about the future of certain aspects of the sport - and working in the club support area for a job, I know for a fact that those fears are well and truly justified. Lets get back to pathways for our own kids instead of a team of high profile recruits.
I also hate to put teams or organisations above others but perhaps the Ballarat Basketball model (from what I've seen) should be used as an example for other organisations? Strong people in charge with a no-nonsense approach and a view for the future and kids instead of just the "now" and recruits / over staffing.
Oh and too, does this constant trashing really help anything? The fact is that associations consist of volunteers wanting to better the sport, paid administrators (some with a clue and some not) and then those that think they can run an empire when they obviously cant. They're the three types in sport and it's a fact. So instead of stating the obvious and trashing individuals can we perhaps have some people take a step back?
2-3 posts edited at the request of a third party. Be clear of your information when implicating people or be prepared to defend yourself in court. Posting anonymously will not protect you from legal action and if pressed for identifying information, I will comply and leave it in the hands of the court.
Also be very clear about what you intend by naming people. I understand that some people brought onto the board did so purely to maintain teams and competition and were not party to what is being generally implied. No volunteer acting like that for junior sport deserves harassment.
I am not a lawyer and thus unable to judge each post made but I will say again - if you have intentionally named people in a defamatory manner, I would be more than happy to provide your IP address and timestamp to a complainant's lawyers for them to review and pursue.
Nice post there "solid". As someone that played against Knox 20 years ago they always had a good name and even though we hated them we also very much respected them. Hate to see any club go through this kind of trouble, it's supposed to be about the Bball, the fans, and the kids, not all these politics. I know they have hired Bedrich Fliszar which is a step in the right direction, more people that love the game and will make their decisions based on what is best for the club not for their own egos is needed I think. Imho of course...
There is such thing a freedom of speech, you can not go to court for having an opinion or stating it.
I think it is hilarious that posts have been removed, I guess it goes to show that some people can't handle the truth.
If you don't like what people are saying about you don't read it and don't add fuel to the fire by responding. and we are not stupid, just because you make your name anon or anonymous doesn't mean we can't work out who you are your comments make it very clear who you are.
you can't handle the heat, Quit and let people who know what they are talking about run the association
wow a lot of energy directed to whats happened in the past... what about using that energy to find out whats going right now...
Being that the CEO just told us that the SEABL team may not be around next year...Can somebody please demand that the CEO answer these questions?
what is the real truth behind the finances? will he please give us an up to date P&L and a Cashflow report to show what we can see what we can and cant afford?
If the council is owed back rent, what is the current status? Have we paid any of it back? how much is left? can we negotiate to pay over a longer period of time? was it just back rent? can we see what the debt is made up off?
And I would like to know what the Tax position is?
I got told that there was a discussion about over paying GST at the AGM. What has happened to this? did we get a credit? is the ATO paid off now?
I'm sure there are many more questions about the current finances? can we put our energy towards saving the place and not arguing and bitching. It time the CEO stood up and told us exactly what is going on.
Considering the current state of affairs and I don't claim to know what is the truth or not a lot of problems could be fixed with some simple communication.
I believe Knox currently and in the past are terrible at letting anyone know what is happening,and this leads to rumour and innuendo.
Appreciate the fact that this is not the norm for a body of management ,but surely these are extra ordinary circumstances.
I implore them to use their website to update on a weekly basis on their plans and the progression of the financial position.
An example only is if there was open tryouts for senior teams with everyone knowing that there was No wages at all and no medical or physio support ,how much is needed to actually run the teams for the season.
Was it put out publicly that unless a certain amount of $$$ or a sponsor for these teams they would have to fold?
It may not have happened but at least it would be the last roll of the dice and they could say they have tried everything.
For too many years it appeared a secret society and if you dared question anything you were considered a winger and trouble maker. I for one is just interested int the facts.
If they went to court on behalf of the members ,why not put the result on their website?
Only my thoughts,and not implying I have the answers as I don't know the questions
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