Unfortunately there is so little money available for the training of referees to improve their skills that it has become a "way of life" to have to accept the above situation at times.

I consider the above parent's concerns as legitimate - i know of many parents who have steeered their male children away from AFL football to avoid the physicality, let alone outright violence.

respondents have made valuable points as well. I don't believe that bias is a widespread issue, but have no doubt that human nature (particularly in junior referees) does play a role.

This is where the availability of extra umpire training and observation that costs money is a neccessity.

The bottom line is that BASA needs to spend money to make money - or they won't have a competition to run.

Let's face it. Refs are hard to find, and good refs are rare. Many stadiums have kids from their junior ranks run around with a whistle.
The stadiums I dread going to because you expect to be up against "The Ref Factor" are Pasadena and especially Marion.
Sometimes you feel like giving them a well-deserved serve, but it would only benefit the opposition.
Last round at Marion (Fri nite), 2 players were in charge. Ref 1 made a totally shit call, then threatened the player with a Tech for responding. Ref 2 actually told Ref 1 that he deserved the spray.

To Win or lose,

You obviously were very distressed when you wrote that article, I remind you that it was an Under 10 juniors match, referee's are not bias for no reason, you seriously need to look at the fact that referee's just like players need to learn, and people like you insulting them, and accusing them of being bias is not helping one bit.

If this is under 10's you are watching 7-9 year olds running around a basketball court, these kids have no structure, they are just told to go for the ball, most probably play or watch football, and these games are very rough.

You obviously come from a non basketball background because you have some problems complaining on a public forum about an under 10's match and expecting people to agree with you.

I am not from Sturt or Southern, and I am not a referee, but you wanted this to be taken to the UIC, mate, the UIC has more things to worry about than probably a rookie 13 year old referee not being up to standard.

The referee development is not doing so great, and yes, some refs do not like some clubs, but it looks like if the game was 7 fouls to 1 in the final quarter, you have no idea what's going on. Coaches have no secret agreement with refs; they are probably smiling because idiots like you are probably arguing with them, making you look like fools.

Videoing games, may teach some refs, but they would never do it in an Under 10's match, under 10's is a complete different game than 14's. Matches are going to be rough, refs are learning and players are learning but coaches and supporters are still in the Stone Age. 7-9 year olds just want to have fun, they will never remember if they win lose or draw, be a good loser, be a good winner. If you want umpire abuse to stop in the future, then stop bloody arguing!

So, Win or Lose, next time, just keep quiet and let your children learn and play, let the refs learn, and get the coach to chat after the game about ways or decisions missed, calmly. You are not helping the game of basketball in anyway& It is Under 10's, it's not the end of the world, and life goes on!

I am embarrassed for you that you would bring this up!

We played under 12's at Marion and ended up with 2 players on the court out of 7 starters. 12 months later we are back and had 2 players on 4 fouls after 5 minutes of play. The kids didn't deserve that treatment. After some intense discussions with the refs the fouls amazingly balanced out. Before we left the next game had started and I can still see the incredulous look on the Sturt coach as she was trying to fathom out what was happening to her team. She was getting the same treatment, 3 fouls in 2 minutes.

I totally agree with the person who started the thread. We are paying these umpires to be fair and to abide by the rules. I agree Sturt and South are the main offenders for being biased to their home teams, North a close 3rd. I have watched 2 kids play through the ranks for the last 10 years and things have not improved. The refs are poorly dressed and unkempt. Today at Port Adelaide our ref could hardly be bothered blowing his whistle, too busy looking around him!!I remember the good old days at the old Forestville with the Ollivers, they kept their staff in check!!

I refer to degenerate in particular. The referee in question had to be in his forties at least. second to this with reference to the first annom. I really dont give a damn that the team lost as I said they missed a hell of a lot of shots and lost by missing 14 shots at the net. As for anyone saying that under tens doesnt matter. Realistically these kids are meant to be learning and when the Ref calls a foul on "the pusher" he should have been called for being unsportsmanlike (its in the rules) instead when our coach argued he was given a tech. For asking if it was for unsportsman like conduct. The refs response was he doesnt know. It doesnt matter if he doesnt know is a rule. The ref has no right to change the rules. as for yeah they were up 7-1 fouls thats right but they got away with a lot more. The fact of the matter is it is very worring as a parent of an 8 year old that he will be hurt not by an accidental fall or a stray hand but deliberate elbows neck grabs and pushes in the back.

I will add that I never spoke once to the ref or yelled abuse. I did say "come on" loudly when a child was knocked to the floor. But otherwise I remained silent. And as for the guy who said di you hear the ref please read again what I wrote I said the UIC spoke to the ref who walked away smiling.

how did the coaches handle the game - were they in order?

" instead when our coach argued he was given a tech "

and argued
and argued
and yelled

and the problem is.....

RELAX

Win Or Lose,

It is under 10's, calm down, it doesn't mean anything winning or losing

Also refs don't call everything to keep the game free flowing in Under 10's, if everything was called their would be a stoppage every 10 seconds

Also in Under 10's their are a lot of injuries becuase of rough play especially when parents make their children over competitive

I have said before, "they shouldn't call basketball Non-Contact"

Overall, a forty year old ref isn't going to bias to anyone, you need to just accept this fact

Also, I add

Imagine the amounts of unsportmanlikes called in one game if in Under 10's they were called for every deliberate contact, you'd have your whole team ejected!

the ref pulled the player aside and spoke to him. It appeared clear the child had no clear knowledge of the illegality of his move.

It is of more use to the u10 to have it explained simply than to have complex calls made on them.

The coach took him off straight away and explained proper defence.

The player pushed did not stumble or fall - and quick smart made his way to the stripe.

It was a half baked push anyway - but still a push.

The player rejoined the game later - prior and after this incident he displayed no malice to anyone / player at the game.

The player received shots - the only benefit to the team would have been possesion at half way.

don't you think being a good ref is being able to manage the game in an appropriate manner.

Ok I except what every one is saying, for your own personal points. What I cant except is this under 10's it doesnt matter. I personally think if you dont want it to matter (rules) then play school or conference. The fact you are playing at what ever age at the highest level for your age group means you should be called at the highest level. This would indeed slow the game. Who cares the child learns by his mistakes he/she then knows in the next age group what not to do. I have played sport all my life from local soccer to zone to club and I can tell you that at zone level/12-16 you will be called for every rule breakage there is. I am just saying the rules are there for a reason and if you can find a reason to not enforce them then why have them????

In response to the coaches question our coach calmly asked twice if the call was for unsportsman like conduct. he was then told he the child didnt know what he had done. the coach then asked again but was it for unsportsman like conduct to the ref them handing a tech. the conversation was very calm.

Win Or Lose,

If you contiually call players for every little mistake they make, it becomes boring, and annoying, and children have small attention spans and will not remember, they practice to no longer make mistakes, and when they get older, the umpire strictness toughens more and more, Under 10's is the start of the learning curve

If that player didn't know his actions were unsportsmanlike then he will learn

In Under 10's it is rough all the way through, elbows to the mouth, chrges, shops, screens, boxing out, rebounding etc. Basketball hurts and it does from start to finish of your career

the title of this thread is bias - but it seems that it is purely a dispute about wether a call should have been unsportsmanlike rather than a standard foul.

where is the evidence of bias in this?

someone earlier posted a 7-1 foul count to the complainant's advantage.

even if the coach is being "calm' continually disputing and interrupting the process of officating is a tech.

Only the coach or captain can approach the referees during time outs and quarter breaks for lengthy to and fro discussions on the calls.

that is by the book

Stadium Cat is right, even calling out "Come On" is against the rules now

the refs actual do rotate through stadiums - many go where they are needed / rostered

wait til your boy plays Div 1 Friday nights - they have a pool of rotating refs through Div 1 games at various stadiums

saturday mornings are far more tolerant than Friday nights my friend

JOBLOW,

you claim your paying the refs?

Thats funny, my understanding is that BASA gives the refs an "allowance" to help cover their costs of being there.

You must be the only person I know generous enough to slip your hand into your pocket, pull out a couple of $20 notes and slip them to the refs.

Oh you dont? Then you DONT pay the refs. Parents/spectators like you are one reason I gave away reffing.

I suppose your one of these morons that ring places like Telstra/ Gas / Electricity companies and because you pay your bill, you tell the staff there that your paying their wages?

Idiot.

Yeah, I stopped being a ref becuase of idiots like you, I never got paid more than $18, for three games of 45 minutes, and what did I get in return, idiot parents screaming at you, and coaches with complaints

Refs are not crap on purpose you know

JOBLOW and Win or Lose you are idiots, good stuff yogee

Win or loose
I really cant believe your comments.
I watched the last game these two teams played, The Tigers coach and a number of the parents were doing nothing short of abusing the two refs the whole game. The refs were juniors and obviously did not have a lot of court time. "As every one has said this is under 10,s".
Obviously the umpire in charge reacted to this and put a more experianced Ref on the court. And the Tiger Coach ended up with a Tech "in under 10,s".
Tigers team CHILL OUT, you will find that the reason the games are getting out of control is because of the hipe coming from the sideline, all the parents getting hiped up does the same to the kids on the floor at that age.
As stated earlier, the Sturt boy that gave the shove was spoken to by the umpire, and was dragged by the coach straight away.
If you payed more attention to the game and not the refs, you would have noticed that the Sturt Coach was benching his players for playing lazy defence, every time his players reached in or slapped at the ball, they were on the bench

Just another parent that suffers from the 'ugly parent syndrome' Geez, we are talking Under 10's here were the kids should be allowed to play without some parent hollering all damn game.

What's the point in a ref being bias in an under 10 game, what does it achieve? SFA, that what it achieves.

To get T-ed up in a Under 10 game the coach should be embarrased and should walk for the sake of his team. Kids this age take note of what adults do and say and to have some peanut screaming at the umpires all game, this behaviour filters to the parents, and the other kids that thinks hollering and screaming at the ref helps.

Well it makes sense why there is a serious lack of refs when ump's are getting ridden in Under 10's by coaches and parents.

Ever wondered where young rookie ref's start, just like young players in the lower levels/age groups. Put yourself in their shoes, your 14 years of age, haven't been reffing for to long and your doing an under 10 game, you have one coach being a goose plus a bunch of adults acting like 5 year olds.... I would quit too.......

I will state again that my concern was the fact that three children ended up on the floor in the last three minutes. all were tigers all were put there by rough play that should have been called fouls. all inccidents happened at the Tigers end and Sturt were in a lesser position to see the fouls. I am not a sufferer of ugly parent syndrome and extremely dispise that term. At no time did the Ref call on our seats to be quite at no time did they cop abuse. I have seen the bias at all clubs and even will restate BIAS to lazy reffing. 3 games ago we played a team who play a zone defence. when the ref was asked (a Tiger ref) to stop this she commented that the coach who placed his players there would not know what a zone is. My statements are simple the game has rules to stop things happening if no one enforces them then why have them. JUst because a child or coach does not know what he is doing is wrong doesnt make it right The rules change from age to age so why have them. Change them let them play zone let them play as rough as they like that is basically what you are saying. BASA or whoever makes the rules and the umpire should enforce them if not then why have them make them softer to let the game "run faster" anyone who says its not in the interest of the game or it slows the game or the child didnt know it is completely besides the point it is the rules. The fact is we lost I really dont give a flying toss the fact that children were in under tens grabbed by the neck elbowed behind the play ( which I caught on a still photo) is my concern. the fact that 3 players end up on the floor in a game where by the foul count it is obvious that Sturt were playing rough and the calls for these inccidents were not made, all three players had control of the ball there should have been fouls called. A player does not just fall to the floor clutching his face crying unless there was contact. In the last three minutes the physicallity seemed to esculate which is to be expected. What I am trying to say is that if the fouls are called for what they should be according to the rules then I am sure less children will get hurt and the skill level would have to by evolution grow. If a player realizes that he cannot simply elbow a child out of the way or push him in the back or grab him by the neck to stop his lead then his skill will have to grow in order to find another way to play the game.
It seems common sense. This will be my last post. But let me say again that The rules are set the refs are there as a judicial body to enforce them. If the dont then they are at fault. Be it from Bias be it from laziness or lack of knowledge. I am not upset at the loss quite honsetly it is a basketball game I dont even like basketball but I do get concerned when my child is sandwitched to the floor. I am not an irrate father I am a concerned father.

I wasnt going to repost but what past of the ref was in his forties did you miss???? And in Answer to the Sturt parent saying the last time we played our coach was the same is down right laughable considering the coach that we had at the last meet doesnt even live in SA anymore......And as I said before I except what everyone is saying in knowing now that the ref was our ref as it has been said it can be only laziness then. I would never berate a child in an open forum. And would apreaciate anyone responding to this entry to please read from the top and get your story straight.

I didnt say it was the same coach I just stated how he behaved.
And I will add that the current coach conducts himself a lot better.

I feel i have been unfairly critised by yogee and degenerate.I enjoy watching the games and take an active part cheering on the players. OK I know nothing of the teams involved at the under 10 level but as I reiterate I have had 2 kids play for 10 years, 1 still palying and the older 1 umpired from u/12s to u/20s so i can see things from a different perspective. I feel those critical of win or lose are reading too much into it personally as they obviously saw or know of the game.Everyone has the right to voice their opinion. I believe I do have the right to critsise by paying literally 1000s of dollars in subs and entrance fees over the years.

JOBLOW,

Put your child on the end of the receiving end of abuse that the majority of ref's cop whilst he/she is reffing a game and we'll see how long they want to continue doing it. Would you want your son/daughter to be constantly abused and critized by overzealous spectators regardless of what club they represent. I think not...

Again I feel I have been unfairly done by. If you refer to the original post it was all about which clubs are deemed to have biased umpires. I have heard many parents speak to UICs over the years with no resolution. Personally I have not as contrary to popular opinion I do not I merit the tag of "ugly parent". I stand corrected re the the payment of umpires, this is not a widely known fact, I presumed htey were taken from the entrance payments.Again I have watched my son umpire ,maybe because he was a fair and un biased ref he did not get abused!!

from the by laws



Officials' Code of Behaviour

Modify rules and regulations to match the skill levels and needs of children.

I might add that the ref in question I have just been informed was not from southern although the young Ref was a southern player/Ref. I have no more to say on this I thank you all for your reponses particually the last response I just wish your reply had of been the first one. I by no way meant to denegrate a Ref but that fact of the matter is still if the calls were made the children and the coaches will call for more carefull play. And I completely believe that if the calls had of been made for the contact the players and the coaches would have backed off and allowed a smooth skilled game...

Win or loose
I am the Coach of the under 10 Sturt team.
To state on this forum that under 10 players were "smiling at bias calls", and a player "deliberately elbows a drop elbow", in my opinion is way out of line.
I saw one push by one of our players during the game, which was addressed immediately.
Can I advise you to contact your Clubs coaching director or junior rep of your concerns, to accuse 8 year old children of these actions will require your Clubs involvement.
If not, can I suggest that you keep any similar comments to yourself.

'Win or Lose', I too saw this game and am associated with Sturt. It was plainly obvious that your team was inferior in skill level, physical talent and intelligence. This, I can only put down to genetics which has been passed down from parent to child. After all, you are associated with Southern Tigers.I personally know both refs who did the game and we did have a chuckle at the 'number' done on you guys. We've upped it to $25 per tech. on your coach for the next game. A nice way for them to supplement their income. Of course, coming from Sturt we can afford this, whereas I suspect you do not have the contacts to arrange this 'agreement' or the finances to follow through.
I was actually standing behind the Sturt bench and did overhear the coach tell his players to 'take no prisoners' and do 'whatever is necessary' to win the game. He also winked at a certain player as the U10 nodded! He was later subbed out of the game and duly congratulated on 'doing his job'. You could see his chest swell with pride on this acknowledgement by the coach. Those 'rub 'em out' drills at training are really paying dividends.........!

'Win or Lose', of course everything I have written here is total crap, but illustrates some of the misnomers that get foisted on basketball clubs. Through the thread the 'tone' of your argument has changed as facts have arisen to rebutt your statements. If you are going to load the gun and pull the trigger...best to have your facts straight at the start. It is obvious your involvement in the game at this point in time is minimal, but please realise that opening this can of worms in a public forum can erode the confidence of the parties you mention (both players and referees). Dare I say you do not fully understand this game to make the comments you have, no doubt fuelled by frustration by the lack of result by your team in the game concerned. Referees are in short supply and I suggest if you want your child to keep playing you tone down your criticism and if you do have a grievance, air it to the appropriate people which has previously been mentioned.