Any one got clues who it is?

They could use another 3 man to help Tim Coenraad. Maybe Stephen Jackson or Shawn Marion?

Hawks following Marion on Twitter

Hmm... high profile import? A local who was previously a huge target of the Hawks Pit Crew?

The best starting line up they have ever had? who have they signed so far?

Kirk Penney?

R. Martin
Lisch
Ennis?
Forman
Ogilvy

it would be hilarious if it was Ennis...

Rotnei is well on par with Lisch, if not more important at the time, Ogilvy is the best big man they've had in recent memory, surely? They'd need a pretty schmick 2nd import or superstar Aussie to make it the best, wouldn't they?

What Aussies are overseas that coming back would be a huge get? Any with ties to Bevo?

The Shawn Marion follow is a bit of an odd one. Could he be the guy? #MatrixDownUnder

Could it be Kirk Penney?

Anyone know his contract status in Europe?

Don't think it's been definitively stated as an import. Just a "big signing" that will get everyone jumping on board.

Remember Spenceley was ejaculating over his import circus jumping midget last year so I normally wouldn't get too carried away BUT with the other guys buying in this has me very intrigued.

Is the reference about the pit crew a hint that it is some one they have had a running battle with.

In this case it could be Ennis but I think his future at the Heat or the NBA is still up in the air.

Marion would fill a lot of holes and could play the 3 and 4 at NBL level which is just what the Hawks need. He would only be coming here to spend time in Australia as the money would be chump change to him.

Penney I doubt as he would more than likely only return to NZ.

Maybe it's a bit over hyped and the player is Ben Madgen who as far as I know still doesn't have a Euro gig.

Surely it is not Ennis or Madgen? Ennis will at least report to training camp with Miami and if he is cut I suspect he would pursue other NBA opportunities or Europe before he looked at the NBL.

Madgen is a nice player, but not a guy who you talk of in terms of major announcements, making people re-think membership decisions and commencing discussion about the franchise's all-time great lineups.

It certainly sounds like the signing will have a bit of "wow" factor to it.

Marion or Penney would tick that box.

Just to throw more cold water on the Ennis rumour, if he were truly interested in returning to the NBL, surely Perth would have signed him and not Casey Prather?

Shawn Marion...... are you guys even being serious?
Ennis is still with the Heat and as if he would come back to the NBL at this stage in his career.

Please be realistic

Marion is only in the talks because the Hawks follow him on Twitter (and don't seem to follow other NBA players), which is kind of weird.

Penney seems to be the guy. Lachie calling him a #gun and #lethalweapon and the Hawks saying the signing will shock non-Hawks fans too would weigh in favour of that. i.e. Everyone expected Penney would only return to the NBL via the Breakers.

Few comments as well in favour of Penney

on twitter that is

Hawks signing everyone's favourite sons? Lisch, now possibly Kirk! :P

I'm not sure how to embed tweets like Isaac did in the first post of this thread, but this from Penney's twitter account on June 10, 2015:

Good luck to Sevilla Baloncesto, wishing you all the very best. #TodosConElCBSevilla @fmrg86

— Kirk Penney (@kirkpenney) June 10, 2015

Marions the last guy they followed on twitter..

Why not? dare to dream

To put a few of you out of your misery, them following Marion is a prank. Ignore that bit.

If its Ben Madgen I am going to - whatever the opposite of 'care' is..

I'd like to say Rotnei but Hawks already have their guards filled. Surely if Penney was going to be interested in returning, Breakers would of been all over him already.

Is Ryan Broekoff even in the equation ?

Boti has posted an article saying it will be Kirk Penney - a much, much better pick up than Ben (Yawn) Madgen.

Penney is elite level. Like Rotnei but with size. Could've played more NBA, IMO. Veteran now, but still a huge pickup.

If it is Penney then he can cover the 3 starting and then swing to the 2 so the concern over having only Demos and White as backups has disappeared.

The next question is have they got any cash left to fill the last spot with an import. They only need a backup 4 but in an ideal world that player could also play at 5 in case Davo has his usual injury time. Don't need scoring from the last spot so only needs to play d and rebound.

Wow ! A lot to be excited about this year. Both for Hawks and the NBL.

Cats "30 straight" in serious jeopardy this year.

Penney isn't elite any more, but still a quality veteran who will make a good contribution inside a system and also have some match-winning performances when the body is feeling good.

Great signing if true, amazed to see him at an NBL club other than NZ, but the Breakers rightfully focused on Webster and Abercrombie.

Kirk Penney is 34, btw

Forget Marion.

Kirk Penney back in the NBL would be amazing

Even if he's lost a step, teams won't be able to leave him open.

If it's legit, the Hawks off-season is roughly:

Nevill -> Ogilvy
Ervin -> Lisch
Carson -> Penney
Hill -> White
Ballinger -> ?

Import spot spare - if the points and cap space is there, go for it. If not, bring back Hill and keep the import spot as injury insurance.

*slow whistle* nice get... Like everyone else, I'm amazed to see Penney back in the NBL in anything other than a Breakers singlet...

Those improvements have been huge, really... Hopefully the increased number of wins for the players who stuck around will make up for those couple of months they weren't being paid...

Martin [5] / Demos [0?]
Lisch [10] / White [2]
Penney [9] / Coenraad [5]
Forman [5] / ??? []
Ogilvy [9] / Davidson [4]
Total = 49

with saving 8pts with loyalty discounts, there is no worry about points cap, but surely they'd have to be using some marquee money? I know Demos and White would be cheap, and it all depends if they'll run with one import or not, but that's a pretty nicely stacked first 5... teams are really gonna have to work hard on the perimeter this coming season!

Get a nice athletic 4 man and relegate Foreman to the bench and they have a pretty nice squad there. You can almost forgive them picking up White and continuing with that nobody Tyson Demos.

I am watching all of these teams make big signings - but don't worry Adelaide! You have Lucas Walker!

If true certainly justifies the signing of both demos and white which some were questioning. Penney will spend time at the two also no doubt, so I can't see white and demos playing many minutes.

Big blow for the Breakers. Was looking forward to seeing him play again for us.

Hawks, Kings, United, Taipains, Wildcats, Breakers all have strong rosters who can contend for the playoffs.

The Big 3 of Lisch, Penney & AJ Ogilvy would be massive going against Childress, Thornton and Khazzouh

Adelaide will contend. They've returned the core of a squad that made the playoffs 2 years running and still have two imports to go.

I hope Spencely's unpaid creditors are enjoying his tweets bragging about his latest spending spree.

Another great signing for the league. Little bit gutted it isn't in a Breakers jersey but also glad he didn't come here at the expense of someone in their prime like Corey Webster or Tom Abercrombie.

The Hawks must have found some cash in an old suit pocket as I can't see him coming cheap especially in NBL terms and then add in Lisch & Ogilvy and there is no way they aren't spending at least the whole salary cap.

R.Martin
K.Lisch
K.Penney
O.Foreman
A.J Ogilvy

Nice starting 5 but not sure who is going to stop anyone on another team from scoring?

Lisch and Penney play similar games so not sure how they would co-exist on court together.
They have both historically taken the bulk of their teams shots so not sure where Foreman & Ogilvy will get their touches from offensively either.

Lisch is an underrated playmaker. He does more with ball-in-hand, whereas Penney's strength is more catch-and-shoot or quick hit moves after the catch. They will complement each other fine. As you say though, I will be interested to see what Penney brings defensively.

Rob Beveridge is a fine coach though, so I think you give him this type of talent he will take them to the Top 4 for sure.

"I will be interested to see what Penney brings defensively."

and the other 4.
Lisch wasn't exactly a lockdown defender at Perth and Oscar Foreman struggles on the block defensively with most PF's. Rhys Martin & A.J Ogilvy aren't terrible defenders but aren't going to make the all defensive team anytime soon either.

Im starting to get nervous and sceptical as to why no one has been signed yet.

"If reports are true and kp is signed and bevo gets that import 4 who can flat out play as he has stated he wants Illawarra Hawks could be the team to beat"

how can they afford an import that can flat out on top of Ogilvy, Lisch & Penney, especially Lisch & Penney who were lured out of Europe?

Disagree, I think Lisch is a better than average defender. He is a bit short for a SG, though.

"Mystro.

It's the lure of Bevo. Players want to play for him."

You are talking about Australians, we are talking about an import spot & most Americans with no previous playing experience in Australia wouldn't know him from a bar of soap.

nice to see Spencely has found some of that missing cash that he couldnt pay me with. . Gotta love VA wipe away nearly 2 million in debt, make arrangement that continually contracted player debts get rolled over to a new contract. Ie foreman, davidson, demos, hill, coenraad etc pay minimal amount to front office employers who chose not to come back, get NBL to issue NEW liscence , register a NEW entity with same owner and management and hey presto your back in business spending that mysterious cash. . , what a fuc$&ng insult !

"You are talking about Australians, we are talking about an import spot & most Americans with no previous playing experience in Australia wouldn't know him from a bar of soap."

It's not what players know, it's what their agents know, and any international agent worth his weight in salt would know Bevo.

What, the guy whinging about being dudded is tacky but the rich bloke who deliberately shafted people over is ok in your eyes because it means you get to watch more basketball?

You should have a problem with the law, not the guy. What he did seems in line with the laws of the land.

just because someone acts "legally" it doesn't mean they have acted ethically.

Obviously a Hawks fan then, Anon, as there's legally and then there's ethically, and then there's gloating about things on social media when he's clearly done wrong by a LOT of people, and with all this money that he COULD have paid them, is now splashing around on top quality coaches and players (of whom are in no way at any fault), it's just incredibly classless on his behalf...

My biggest concern with this roster was rebounding as they have been notoriously dismal under Gordie in that category, Bevo's teams crash the boards as a team so this team could win a lot but in their losses you'd imagine it would be boards and not ball handling, shooting or defence that's the undoing of this team of champions.

For what it's worth I think Lisch is a bloody good defender, I remember him staying on Deleon all game and kept him to like 5 points or something... I think that was against the Hawks too.

I'd love to read that Spencely has paid his players past and present what they are owed

"yes going into administration is never a great situation but the process of going into administration is there to keep businesses alive long term, it's not dodgy or unethical. the hawks couldn't survive in their previous format, it was over, lights out. "

They're owned by a guy who is worth $22 million. Yes, they could have survived.

hahahaha that isn't what tall poppy means, dickhead.

And none of those things apply here.

You're happy that you get to watch more basketball even though it took a lot of people getting screwed over to get there. Perhaps you can tell us what syndrome you have that describes that sort of selfishness.

back to talking about basketball please ?

We're talking about the current NBL here, plus what went on in the off season. Its completely relevant to the signing of Penney and other big name players.

Well said anon 142, lets hope it does mean the Hawks are alive for a long time to come.

And thats the other issue we haven't even touched yet. We've already seen Spenceley throw his toys out of the cot when things got too hard. Why would you believe that he has plans to keep this going for the long term? I mean, he won't be the first NBL rich owner to do that but sure, lets believe that this guy will be different.

What about the post-VA process has made the Hawks viable? They've got a better team, but that could've happened without VA. They need the roster to translate to sponsorship or tickets for viability.

paul, I agree with Chalmers - ethics can't be overlooked. Tax minimisation is legal but ethically ambiguous at best. I don't like this VA scenario being ignored. Feels very unfair to me and I can sympathise with anyone on the wrong side of it.

Again, if you have issues with this situation it should be with the law that allows it.

I think the usual paul is having his username borrowed by someone saying completely stupid things.

Saying people are within their rights to act within the law is hardly "completely stupid", in fact it's one of the foundations of our society.

I'm all for the law being adjusted, but not for attacking people who follow the current law.

Its a law that is really only accessible to people who have an army of lawyers and accountants at the ready to get creative enough to absolve you of any responsibility.
Using those laws to knowingly do that is abhorrent behaviour but hey, we all get to watch more basketball so that makes it all ok.

So you think the law should be changed?

Thats got nothing to do with the point I am making.

"Its a law that is really only accessible to people who have an army of lawyers and accountants at the ready to get creative enough to absolve you of any responsibility."

Sounds like you are firmly against the law to me.

Again, that has got nothing to do with the point I am making.

It has a lot to do with it. Change the law and it doesn't happen.

Or, just don't act unethically. Don't screw people over just because the law allows you too.

I can't believe Geordie walked out on the club. Didn't he know that all of this was legal?

Once again, change the law and this doesn't happen. The rest is just pub talk.

Chalmers, from what I guess is your usual political slant, paul is arguing the position I'd more expect from you!

paul, surely you can see that someone might have a view of the law and of something from an ethical perspective? And that beyond "pub talk", that pushing awareness of it has value.

Aggressive tax minimisation is a reasonable parallel for this sort of thing. Legal but ethically questionable and available mostly to the wealthy.


I run a small business and I've had to write off money owed by Australian basketball organisations. It's really damaging at this scale of business. I think Gongski (and players) have a right to feel aggrieved.

It's one thing to can later years in a contract (Nevill is one example), and another if you're ditching money owed under an amortised contract where the service has already been rendered. I think that's really unfair.

I think I know what you mean Isaac but I don't think I have ever been in favour of hiding behind a law to blatantly rip someone off.

"paul, surely you can see that someone might have a view of the law and of something from an ethical perspective? And that beyond "pub talk", that pushing awareness of it has value."

I do, but I think it's meaningless unless you're campaigning to change the law to align with those ethics. I'm all for changing the VA laws, but not for attacking people who act lawfully.

Paul I think the issue is that VA is used as a tool by some to negate their obligations. Trump has been liquidated many times but still maintains billionaire status. I would have a grievance too if a shelf company was the thin layer between my rightful income and being shafted.

Once the VA started the staff had their income turned off, all the while knowing that the guy turning the tap was perfectly capable of paying them what they were owed.

Not sure how you build confidence and a succesful culture when you have done that to people

"Paul I think the issue is that VA is used as a tool by some to negate their obligations."

Exactly. That's why the laws surrounding its use should be changed. Until they are though, a business owner is within their rights to use them.

For the anon who knows me so well, I work as a contractor and have for a number of years. One thing I've learned over those years is when people don't have a good argument they attack the person.

paul, do you think the whole Hawks VA scenario is ethical?

WOW

Is this the real reason why we have the Illawarra Hawks now because to issue a new license there had to be a name change or something along those lines?

It's worth noting that one of the aspects that makes Australia attractive as a destination for imports, is the fact that team owners generally act in an ethical and predictable manner when it comes to financial obligations etc. Flying in the face of that, by essentially leaving creditors high and dry, in order to get a fresh start, puts a dent in that reputation (however small).

I just hope that all this spending on elite players doesn't follow suit on last years financial problems. Would be a massive disaster if they went into VA again this year. Hawks fan need to show up in the masses and support the this quality team.

Townsville seem to be a little more sensible with their spending so far.

paul, the right thing and the legal thing (especially in business) are often some distance apart. Obviously countless people argued against Rosa Parks' actions at some point in the past and were legally correct. The person who protested or complained at the dinner table or wrote to a newspaper contributed in some way towards the public sentiment that helps realise change.

I'm reminded of Kerry Packer's quote:

I am not evading tax in any way, shape or form. Of course, I am minimising my tax. Anybody in this country who does not minimise his tax wants his head read.

I agree, and Rosa Parks actions were about changing the law, which they did. All i see here is talk about am individual, no talk and particularly action about the offending law.

I'll support action to alter the VA laws, I don't think they're right, I just won't vilify people who are following the laws of our country, I think I've made that pretty clear.

I don't subscribe to the current subculture of our country where people think they can vilify individuals simply because they disagree with them, arguing on moral grounds that don't require reasoned argument. It's the technique of autocrats and has no place in a genuinely democratic country.

The arms race has resumed, you're definitely right, and let's hope it's not all riding on the TV rights fairy coming through quickly. Counting your chickens before they hatch often doesn't end well.

It's the technique of autocrats and has no place in a genuinely democratic country.

"You think the law should be changed to make the Hawks' actions illegal, and the other side is being autocratic?"

You think we shouldn't have laws?

I've got no problem with moral judgements, it's vilifying someone based on them when they're acting within the law that bothers me.

Paul, you can be doing something legal AND unethical. It's not hard to understand why he is being vilified (and it's not a personal attack). If you know the laws are unjust, allowing him to act unethically and screw people over, why are you hiding behind "well it's the law" as an argument?

Do you think the whole VA thing was unethical?

I'm saying the law should be changed to stop it happening again. These aren't new laws, I'm pretty sure James Spenceley had no part in creating them and I'm pretty sure he is nowhere near the first business owner to use them.

If the laws that allow it to happen were addressed we wouldn't have this issue. Until they are addressed these situations will continue to arise in situations few ever hear about. If you're worried about people being hurt, focus on the laws that could prevent it.

Why won't you answer the question?

Which one?

Do you think the Hawks VA situation was unethical?

That's a good question. Red flags certainly go up when a business owned by someone worth a decent amount goes into VA, cuts a tight deal and then comes out spending.

The owner might say this is the level of investment required to make the business viable. He has certainly been quoted as saying they need better players to get people through the doors. Not all would agree.

You can look at it by summing up if more people benefit or are hurt by the VA outcome? Does the investment that goes into the Illawarra community, and the associated benefits of having a team, outweigh what was lost in VA?

You could say if the owner walks away after a year or two and the club dies or goes into VA again that this isn't the case, and the original VA was an unethical owner just using a sports team as a toy.

If the Hawks now become a viable business and deliver benefits for the community for decades to come perhaps the VA action was for the overall good?

Of course, the nagging question remains whether the owner would have actually walked without the VA deal in his favour?

I can't give you a yes or no answer because it is a complex issue, I haven't read all the documentation and I think what happens next is important.

But it would be nice for the VA process to somehow take into account an owners' capacity to pay, not just the business'. That would lead to greater accountability of business decisions.

I was talking about the owner - "a business owned by someone worth a decent amount".

The money comes from the owner, who knew?

Owner with plenty of $ goes into VA. Voids contracts and last three months of payments. Offers coach a deal he couldn't accept.( still had 2 years to run) Recruits new coach for probably more $. Asks and gets contracted players to take pay cut to sign under the impression they have limited budget. Signs a number of high quality players who one would expect would be on significant $. Not to mention the non basketball creditors. Tried to buy success last year and made terrible decisions. Illegal no.
Morally and ethically totally wrong. I would not want to work for this ?? and certainly will not be supporting this team. It once was the team for the community and based on working class values. If this team does not win JS will walk.

paul, there's a lot of forward looking in your assessment there - easy to excuse any action with hypothetical musings. Who knows, maybe all the post-WWII angst will somehow come to mean that the planet as a whole is better off!

At the time of the VA process however, payments to creditors were clearly neglected - no need to look forward for that. I don't think the net return to a community is a factor when making an ethical judgement about an entertainment venture, of all things!

It's a bit like pushing someone from a bridge and then saying "But it might force a driver to swerve and prevent a bus from crashing and killing a class of school kids." Or even making that judgement after the fact. (That sort of thing is sometimes used as an ethics thought experiment.)

You're overthinking it Isaac. You can either go on blaming every business person who uses VA for anything other than its purest intentions for eternity, or you can tighten the rules accordingly.

It's a bit like Fed Govt ministers comparing people claiming two lots of PPL to fraud, when all they were doing was acting in accordance with the rules made by the government.

Sorry Isaac, you were responding to a different post to what I thought.

Re 'forward thinking', how can you assess an occurrence until you see what its effects are?

And it strengthened Kestelmans position.

paul, any action influences infinite more after it. By your reasoning, how can any then judge anything?

I would tend to put greater stock in well-considered ethics than the law of the moment struggling to keep up.

Wow, this got real esoterical right quick.

The law is not the bastion of what is ethical or appropriate. Something can be totally legal and yet morally bankrupt. I don't know the whole story, but there are elements of this that stink.

Maybe parts of it were valid and necessary restructuring, but most of that can occur without the VA. It seems more an attempt to get debt forgiveness in relation to pre-Spenceley debts which, if I recall correctly, had been guaranteed (at least in the loose sense) to be paid as part of the purchase.

Paul, it might be a great business decision that the suits can laugh about with their mates down at the club, but it reeks of very sharp practice.

paul being a contractor isn't being in business for yourself, as a journalist what are your capital outlays? Exactly - no stock or wages on your end that need to paid to others before you get paid. I'm talking a business with assets which clearly you can't relate to. I feel for gongski and co. These big businesses will never do COD so you have to risk or else forgo turnover.

also never forget that Spencely is just the puppet so ask yourselves who is the puppetmaster? It is Kestelmann who has been friends with Spencely for years before he bought the Hawks. LK needed a placeholder to keep the team alive to have a minimum of eight clubs and no doubt hatched the plan