Ivar
Years ago

Junior Coaching Appointments

I have been around basketball for a LONG time and it never ceases to amaze me how my Association (and I'm sure others) seem to pick their coaches? It seems that it's not what you know( or what results you have achieved) it's "who you know" Wouldn't it be better if coaches were selected and rewarded for consistently good results? After all our players have try outs and 99% of teams are picked on performance and I believe it should be the same with the coaches.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Explain how you compare coaches results and performance when they have different groups to coach.

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Ivar  
Years ago

Easy team finishes top, team above finish 6th, coach of lower team therefore on performance should replace coach of higher team.Also coaching directors need to interview parents for feedback on coaches performance and DEVELOPMENT. Then appointments would be more thorough and transparent.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Yes and no, depends on the division or team they are applying to coach, teams they have coached, if they have had the quality players to work with, the depth of players in that age group, have they actually developed kids or reaped rewards of others efforts etc. coaches can end up looking better than what they are. Some coaches are excellent development coaches in U12's e.g. Basic skill sets. If you can a quality coach like this then your in luck, the results may not necessarily be there as a lot of time may have focused on individual work (which it should be at that end the spectrum).
Then there is the otherside where I know a club on the Mornington Peninsula who looks at their ability to communicate; but you don't need to have any basketball knowledge at all cause they believe they can make a good communicator into a coach even if you don't understand the game, this is failing miserably mind you.
I think your right in saying some coaches are appointed because of who they know or some are appointed on how many years they have been coaching in the VJBL and get a position based on longevity rather than ability. I also think we have way to many teams and we are spreading our officials, our quality of players, our resources and our clubs too much.
Fact is clubs struggle for coaches and a coach with a CV stating VJBL experience is highly sort after as apposed to parents coaching if they can avoid it but no club can.

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Ivar  
Years ago

P.S. Remember higher team picked their 10 players first. Lower team then picked theirs picked theirs. Surely you see who got the most developement out of their players!!!!

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Ivar how do you compare coaches coaching VC to regional 1, if regional makes finals and VC doesn't you would replace the VC coach with the regional? Completely different styles, abilities, skills etc. played in those divisions. Your attempting to try and make this an easy task in picking the right coach for the right age group with the right playing group.....almost impossible. And basing it purely on results is crazy.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

I am not going to pretend I know how every Association does this, but I expect you would have a number of coaches apply for the jobs open at the start of every season and you go through the usual process to pick the most suitable for your teams.

Does someone see it differently to this?

If you apply the process properly you should get a decent result, but if you lack coaches or have mates doing the selecting, of course there will be bias or conjecture in some cases, nature of the beast I'm afraid.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Every program is different. Impossible to compare or make broad statements, every situation is unique.

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Ivar  
Years ago

Hi 578 you make some very good points - made a lot of sense.
581 Also good comment and yes I think VC coaches could be almost exempt. I guess I am saying from Met1 down to regional 1,2,3,4.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Of course every situation is unique, every program is different because the people are different and the players are different and there are many variables to consider. The process for appointing coaches should not vary that much though. Maybe the people involved and how they go about applying the process can lead to mistakes being made, but I don't think the process is that much different no matter what Association we care to talk about.

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Ivar  
Years ago

582 - nice comments make sense. Look everyone I don't think it's a broad statement it's more a broad issue. It is different and more difficult for smaller Associations that may not have enough applicants.I am talking about larger associations and there are quite a lot of them.I know that at the association I am at - honestly you could write a book about it (coaching appointments for friends would be a good name for the book)

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.  
Years ago

some coaches on the up, some not - I think the important thing is coaches on the up get the right appointment

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Coach  
Years ago

My problem is that any objective measures for evaluating coaches are resisted in most coaching appointments. One simple measure would be to see the difference between the preseason ranking and the postseason finish for coached teams, not for one year, but over a period of seasons, so that random events (good luck and bad luck) are smoothed out. This could, at least, be one of the starting points for a conversation.

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Bear  
Years ago

Ivar, you are comparing nepotism with a systematic process, two different things.

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Ivar  
Years ago

603 & 608 i like your comments. Bear I have read what Nepotism is." the unfair practice by a powerful person of giving jobs & other favours to relatives" Can you elaborate on what you mean with your comments?

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.  
Years ago

one issue I have noted is that due to the fact most positions are performed by volunteers - some coaches are in that position because nobody else would do it as opposed to people wanting / applying for positions.

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Bear  
Years ago

Ivar, I don't know where your Association is but I am sure they have By-Laws and Policy about their processes.

That being the case, the process in appointing coaches should be covered.

That being the case, if they are not following the process and there is nepotism, they are going against the policy and possibly the specified By-Laws.

Nepotism can occur in any aspect of dealings with people, especially where selections like this are involved, however I am sure it isn't part of the process, more a complication hindering it's perception of integrity.

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Very interesting discussion...

I'm involved at one of the larger Vic clubs and are amazed at not only the process to appoint coaches but the lack of communication and planning involved...

Each team, coach, situation is really unique so it definitely isn't a one size fits all. A framework can be used but this must be tailored and adapted to the situation.

Team results are not always the best indicator of a good coach (as alluded to above by others). There are circumstances that are relevant and unique to each team.

A coach that might be outstanding in one year of say a U16 Boys VC team might struggle the following year with the same age group but different team members.

I think one key makeup that the coach needs is to be adaptable and not just force feed their system on a team.

The DOC at each club really needs to understand the different needs of each team and then try and match the appropriate coach.

Not always are the more experienced or credentialled coaches the best... I have seen some coaches that have been involved at an international level be terrible at coaching juniors, where a less experienced coach has really excelled.

It does surprise me to see some coaches given the same roles when there has been a ton of negative feedback and players leaving the club year after year... You don't always want players/parents dictating the coaching appointments but if players are leaving every year and there is continued bad feedback, it is a good sign you need to move the coach on or appoint them to a more appropriate team...

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Nepotism is rife in Basketball at the elite end, lets leave it at that...

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Ivar  
Years ago

617 - Great and informed comments It's probably what I'm trying to point out. Eh Bear - what's your interpretation of Nepotism???

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Swagger  
Years ago

Ivar, I believe this is an invalid point, a teams success is not always on the coach, a team can have a bunch of talent but not succeed. You can have success in div 3 but there is a huge difference between a division 3 team and a division 1 team. The div 3 players may be good for a div 3 players but then the division 1 team could be made up of players who would be playing div 2 at most other clubs

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Baller6  
Years ago

I think you will find that a lot of coaches will talk a good game as well and if they are loud enough and show a certain level of confidence/arrogance then they are able to talk themselves into good gigs, It's often hard to really see their lack of knowledge until you work closely with them....and in my experience sometimes it can be shocking.
This also becomes a problem when a coach is used to being gifted a certain spot when it may be a great crop of players carrying them to good records season after season, the problem here is they often don't improve as coaches as they never have to deal with taking a weaker bunch and out coaching their opponent and developing their kids opposed to relying on the talent that has been handed to them. This is also bad for the kids they coach as they will never really learn anything new under these situations until they jump to a higher level then get a huge wake up call.
Also kids should often have different coaches imho (as long as they are of a comparable level of course) as any good player knows you learn more at these ages when you take in different coaching styles and try to pick up little gems of information and tips etc on your journey, having the same coach for 3 or 4 years in a row which I have seen happen to kids at some clubs is never a good thing for a player...

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Bear  
Years ago

Ivar your original post expresses concern at how junior coaches are selected at your Association. You have stated they should be chosen based on performance and you think this isn't the case.

I was merely suggesting that if this isn't the case and you have observed direct evidence of nepotism, then someone has failed to follow a process that in fact would have been written in part to avoid this situation.

Not knowing additional circumstances and of course not taking into account all the variables that present themselves (like #617 has posted), if you in fact have observed this over a number of years perhaps it is time you either said something or applied for a position on the board to fix the issue of 'jobs for the boys'?

We have no idea if those coaches being picked are in fact good or bad, just your opinion of the way they are selected and that other have had more successful results, yet it is plainly presented before you that the criteria for a good coach islikely to be far more than results alone.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

This issue has its problems. Their is a massive difference between smaller clubs and larger ones. The talent pool of coaches is shallow and good coaches will move on if they wish to better themselves. Unfortunately 'jobs for the boys' is rife at smaller clubs because of it. But who else will do it?

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Confused parent  
Years ago

You need people with basketball knowledge to coach at a Met or higher level. Heard some crap about an association saying they can make anyone a good coach if you can communicate. Sure you can teach a kid skills( if you can show them) but you need to be game day smart. Tactics and reading the game are gained with experience not fundamental reviews. Telling kids to bounce a ball and throw it in the round hole is ridiculous.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

What would you do with this coach?
Parent of a child playing first year rep, puts their hand up to coach. Parent has had years of playing experience at SEABL, VBL level as a senior.
National Junior representation, multiple state representative. Only coached previously (successfully) at domestic level. Which team should they coach? No one else in the club comes close to having the same playing profile at all?
Would you make them apply for a team? Offer a team? Try and nurture and promote that coach within the program?
All hypothetical questions of course!

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Bear  
Years ago

Even more ridiculous is throwing it and not getting it in the round hole...

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Wish we had the choices we struggle each year to get suitably qualified coaches.

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Bear  
Years ago

Anonymous #641, not knowing your club, but having come from a small/medium club to a larger one I may offer you some advice to pass on, should you care to.

1. Small clubs still have parents who want to help, they are actually everywhere, you just need to look for them.
2. Most parents of under 10-12 age kids also want to be involved in what their kids are doing but may be new to all the basketball hype, so they just need to be approached the right way and 'hey presto' you have a team manager or someone who wants to help the caoch on game days.
3. These helpful and enthusiastic parents will be contained in at least one parent per team and they may even possess some sporting nouse and leadership skills.
4. Find that parent and devlop their skills, foster them into coaching domestic and doing basic basketball level 1 courses, attending seminars and take an interest in them.
5. By the time their kids are in the under 18's these parents will turn into something you are seeking (front line coaches).

Cheers...

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chewie  
Years ago

Pretty interesting points.
Not really sure where I sit with this one having witnessed it from both sides of the fence.
The only part that Id be against from the get go is parents doing coaches evaluations. My issue with this is that some parents struggle just to get their kids to training sessions. They drop them off and then pick them up and then watch every second game. While Im sure there are parents that attend and watch (not play with their phone) every training session (I know a couple of these), the majority are generally oblivious to what is going on.
Im sure there are vast ends of the spectrum when considering how much voluntary time some coaches put in at junior level, but factor:
3 or 4 tournaments a calendar year (1 interstate)
2 trainings per week
2 individual trainings per week
1 game per week
2-3 hrs of video analysis/editing and playback per week from game footage
Training planning
Watching other games, talking to other coaches, attending other training sessions/accreditation

The financial and time cost on this is pretty significant, noting that this is often voluntary (Id actually love to know how many junior coaches are paid). Having some parents with little to no involvement formally appraising a coach not knowing what goes into it comes across as a little hollow for mine. Don't get me wrong. Every parent is entitled to their opinion. It would be great if they approached their kids coaches to ask questions. If they aren't happy with the response, discuss with the club Div 1 coach or club president, and finally, they can always vote with their feet. But as for formal appraisal.....Id just be happy if they showed up on time to trainings.

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Ivar  
Years ago

I am glad I brought this topic up as there have been some
fantastic responses and ideas put forward.Thanks to Bear I now know the meaning of Nepotism!! Chewie you make a lot of sense with your comments. When I said the DOC's should ask/talk to parents I didn't mean that the parents were to appraise the coach but rather let the DOC know if they thought their kid or even the whole team had improved fundamentally,were there "bonding" sessions to bring everyone together. Was it enjoyable, did the kids have fun? The DOC could drive the querying.

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HO  
Years ago

^ I think Bear is actually talking about cronyism.

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Ivar  
Years ago

Aw come on HO HO HO DO you know where Bear is from?
Is he a SandGROPER, a Croweater, an Eastern Stater,a Cockroach, a Banana Bender or a Tasmanian with identical Twins on his big shoulders.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Settle down man you are starting to embarrass yourself

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Ivar  
Years ago

Aw c'mon man your taking life too seriously!!

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Bear  
Years ago

HO I think technically yes, it is cronyism, however splitting hairs there.

Also, Ivar I think technically speaking I am a Mexican...

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anon  
Years ago

Not all ex players make good coaches.

They may have skills when playing but trying to teach them is not as easy sometimes.

If they can read the game they can sometimes make good coaches provided they can teach skills and communicate well.

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Ivar  
Years ago

Hi Bear - Yes we Victorians are Mexicans in the eyes of NSW people we are "south of the Border" buy I have lived and worked in WA & SA & there they refer to us as Eastern
Staters. Good onya Bear love your opinions.

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Anon  
Years ago

Just heard that Knox have booted their 14-2 girls coach from this season -and she got them into Championship????

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Anon  
Years ago

Wow and I heard her "besty" who coached the 12-2's might be going with her? WTF is happening!!!!

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Anon  
Years ago

Surely this is B.S. Can anyone confirm?

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Anonymous  
Years ago

If true don't they know how popular these 2 coaches are with the players and parents and members? It's sad,bad news.Lovely girls who have came through the system.Good luck wherever you go you know heaps of us love you both.

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Anononon  
Years ago

Confirmed. Check the Knox Website. They have posted all positions. Empty ones appear to be filled by parent coaches after try-outs.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

LOL

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Anonymous  
Years ago

I have heard they have filled some spots with younger people who have never coached and do not even have level 1' And they will be (or should be) coaching in Metro.

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Anon  
Years ago

This is not a knox thread. I assume the person having the five or six post conversation with themselves is the coach who is so good and loved by everyone but lost their job.
If you are as good as your five personalities say you are you will have other clubs knocking the door down.
I notice no mention of the players getting you to champ it was all your doing, so i assume you played for them as well

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Hi - Help!! Bear or anyone else.Do Associations/Boards have guidelines/criteria and transparency as to how they go about selecting their teams.And should the DOC's when not appointing coaches to their preferred team sit down and explain why or do/should they just leave em hanging.And is it the DOC'S or Junior Chairpersons responsibility to communicate why they they have missed what they wished for and what they need to do to be considered in the future??

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Anonymous  
Years ago

And DOC worth their salt will be consistently talking to coaches during the process of selection and updating them and talking too them about where they have been selected and why.

I would assume that this would not happen at all clubs with some choosing to just send out an email to avoid the conflict involved in telling people that they didn't get their first choice.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

So in simple terms they don't have the people/communications skills or balls or don't consider that coaches are people who have feelings?

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Anonymous  
Years ago

You may not believe me but I love the club and feel Board wise they are going well "Thank God" But I think on the playing side there needs to be some things done better I'm sorry for upsetting anyone - I guess it's just my frustration at not getting ANY feedback and there are people in high places that I do not trust. I am not going to post any more, just I guess suffer in silence.

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Anon  
Years ago

You say there is no communication but you go onto a forum to whinge about no communication instead of actually communicating with the club. If you are wondering why you are not coaching it may be due to the fact that you would even considering venting on an open forum.
It is not a good look

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Anon #101 what is it exactly you are after here?

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Glasnost - but as I said I'm done and you can post 1000 times if you want this is my final post & 127 you work it out you don't need to be a Rocket Scientist!!!

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Bear  
Years ago

Do Associations/Boards have guidelines/criteria and transparency as to how they go about selecting their teams?
Some do, usually they explain it in simple terms before try-outs in an email or flyer.

And should the DOC's when not appointing coaches to their preferred team sit down and explain why or do/should they just leave em hanging?
I expect coaches can ask to have a chat at any time and they would be able to do this.

And is it the DOC'S or Junior Chairpersons responsibility to communicate why they they have missed what they wished for and what they need to do to be considered in the future??
Well, my experience is that a good DOC would do this but it may dpend on how many applications they get, therefore I would also expect a coach can ask the DOC for a chat over a coffee too...



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Anon  
Years ago

just because announcements about coaches have not occurred doesn't mean coaches don't know who they are. At this time of year some clubs do not announce coaches to prevent speculation and whinging to keep focus on the job at hand which is the finals run.

Coaches also are not always appointed based on ability because they have families and work commitments that may influence their availability. They themselves may request something unexpected to keep coaching rather than quit so well done to coaches who have stuck their hands up.

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chewie  
Years ago

Id suggest that most SA Div 1 and 2 coaches would know by now which teams they are coaching, and the majority of them would have known for sometime now. My understanding is that clubs don't publicise this for a number of reasons, such as they are still in finals, or there may be some indecision by coaches on availability.
In saying this, I know a few Div 3 coaches that are yet to be informed on their selections. Id suggest the same issues as above dictate this. I know 1 coach that changed their selection based on availability as recently as yesterday. Change was based totally on family life and it was nothing they could anticipate.

An element of irony here. I know a number of parents that don't pay for registration of their kids until they know who the Div 1 and 2 coaches are, and I actually understand this (while I don't agree with it) based on getting the best match of coach for their kids. But how many coaches would like to change their selections of teams they volunteer/elect to coach, after they see the squads that they have to select from?

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