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Swagger
Two years ago

#38149

Is grind it out games what the nbl wants?

I'm currently located baseline at the Perth at Adelaide match.

In my 20+ years of playing, coaching and watching the game this must be one of the most physical games I've ever seen. Both ways.

Is this what the new nbl wants? It must look awful on TV, yes here 5 metres away its physical but on TV it must look awful and the missed layups and turnovers would play into the worse impressions on the nbl.

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paul
Two years ago
21:20 10 Oct 15

Reply #553737

re: Is grind it out games what the nbl wants?

After four well refereed matches to start the season the three amigos completely lost control of this one, and a brilliant opening turned into a trip back in time to 2013 and a thoroughly ugly last 25 minutes.

Hopefully just a reminder of what not to do as the officiating has achieved a nice balance for the most part up until this game.


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PlaymakerMo
Two years ago
21:24 10 Oct 15

Reply #553740

re: Is grind it out games what the nbl wants?

A: grind it out games is what Perth wants.


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Wwizard
Two years ago
22:14 10 Oct 15

Reply #553758

re: Is grind it out games what the nbl wants?

Spectacle on Fox is woeful. Showcases how 'plastic' the league looks. Last quarter, 5 fouls Perth. In less than 2 mins with 3 to play, both with 5 fouls.
Cant tell me Foxtel didnt change the game with live coverage when they had a TV timeout.


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Bear
Two years ago
22:17 10 Oct 15

Reply #553760

re: Is grind it out games what the nbl wants?

You won't beat Perth in an arm wrestle, but that's kind of what we got tonight.

If that's what they call Hardball, I was never a fan, just so many holds, pushes and shoulder charges for mine.

Officials called a few fouls but for me it was the cheap ones and a couple of useless travel calls while letting so much go that confused me and that inconsistent calling is what messes everything up.

Given that the referees sometimes get it wrong, I am still enjoying the start of the season and Perth look very strong, again!


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Hendo8888
Two years ago
22:45 10 Oct 15

Reply #553771

re: Is grind it out games what the nbl wants?

There's attacking teams and there's defensive teams and there's even teams.
Perth are decidedly a defensive team. We're largely an offensive team.
It's the same in AFL, teams like Freo and Sydney win the arm wrestle, defensive games. Teams like Adelaide and West Coast try to outscore you. Teams like Hawthorn just beat you both ways.
Are some games more entertaining than others? Absolutely. But a team is going to play to their strengths and for some teams, those strengths are in creating an arm wrestle, then beating them at that game. Perth do this.


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Dazz
Two years ago
23:51 10 Oct 15

Reply #553785

re: Is grind it out games what the nbl wants?

To answer the OP's question, no the NBL would prefer college ball where everybody just runs up and down dunking.
Personally, I prefer it where a dunk is actually earned and meaningful, but that's just me.

It's the same with the NBA, and its why they keep tweaking the rules.

Personally I prefer FIBA interpretations, and the reality is that a well-balanced team, that can play both strong offence and defence, will naturally beat a flashy offensive team.

Keep in mind, that the NBL itself doesn't actually care about winning. Think about it, in any game, you've got players, coaches, staff, and legions of fans, who care about nothing but winning, but the NBL itself just wants the game to be popular.
But the teams do, and they will bring everything to bear to make that happen. If that means getting ugly, then so be it.


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Swagger
Two years ago
00:02 11 Oct 15

Reply #553789

re: Is grind it out games what the nbl wants?

Thanks all. My question was really rhetorical, I've played and coached at decent levels and love physical tough minded basketball, so for me despite being on the losing end tonight as a supporter I really enjoyed it. But I sit front row, people at home don't get to see things quite how I get to see them.

My concern was what it does to the sport as a tv product, so my question should really have been does this look as awful on tv as I think it does.

LK can spend all the money he wants but if the refs swallow their whistles guys (on both sides) will continue to foul and the viewers we need to attract I fear won't be liking what they see.


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Anthony
Two years ago
08:47 11 Oct 15

Reply #553814

re: Is grind it out games what the nbl wants?

I could not attend but watched it on TV as a product the first half very entertaining to watch. Then the refs put the whistle away and it was very ugly to watch and really did not do the game justice.


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Anonymous
Two years ago
09:37 11 Oct 15

Reply #553826

re: Is grind it out games what the nbl wants?

i was there and it was very ugly basketball and i almost walked out. it was infuriating and you could feel the crowd shut off and so did the sixers and joey didn't respond. amateur hour from the foxtel camera crew going on court during foul shots and running around like chooks with their heads chopped off. i couldn't believe it. and the score board, well that is ridiculous.. how embarrassing nbl. shame on you for not sorting out the refs, the scoreboard, the keystone foxtel crew, the music, the announcer. was amateur. viewers if you were there and know your basketball you would have cringed. perth are still dirty and showing off their NIDA lessons are paying off and Nate embarrassed himself as he joined the rubbish. Joey froze in the fourth leaving some exciting youth on the bench while the regulars just went through the motions of yet another dodgy game against Perth controlled or not controlled by the mood of the umps. Joey gets a warning for a throw away comment while Gleeson with his entire bench up courtside leaning in yelling gets nothing. So tired of it all and fast losing interest. i will not be brought by some fancy talk, tv deals and tshirts. i just want to go courtside and watch a bloody good basketball game and see the scores and a fair fight coached well and controlled consistently by refs.


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Supernintendo Chalmers
Two years ago
09:50 11 Oct 15

Reply #553829

re: Is grind it out games what the nbl wants?

If you think Perth were on the right side of the reffing last night, you might have had one too many beers.


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Anonymous
Two years ago
10:23 11 Oct 15

Reply #553833

re: Is grind it out games what the nbl wants?

you assume too much. no one was on the right side of the reffing and that is the point. yes it played to perths advantage as they love it rough and dirty but if you were there you would have felt the second half boredom of the crowd as it was not basketball for either team. beal was the only one on both sides that seemed to keep playing true to his own game. and since when is it not okay to complain about no scoreboard and teams listed as team A and B. who would not complain, perth, sydney, melbourne !!!!! no one wants to keep looking at their phones and i am certain the players want to glance up to see where they are. complaining gets things fixed. apathy doesn't. it is not okay


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Swagger
Two years ago
10:31 11 Oct 15

Reply #553835

re: Is grind it out games what the nbl wants?

You've missed the point Mr. Chalmers, well at least the one I'm making.

In any case I hope that's an exception like Paul said earlier and I hope the refs involved are aware of what that game would look like to the casual viewer.

The refs are a bit part of the league, and have one of the most crucial jobs to play in the league's recovery. A thankless tough job, but crucial. Hopefully they review the game and realise just how bad for the tv product last night would have been.


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Anonymous
Two years ago
10:52 11 Oct 15

Reply #553840

re: Is grind it out games what the nbl wants?

10 min quarters hardly helps. Players don't get into any rythm and lack repitions to get them out of shooting slumps.

A lot of wide open shots missed by the cats unitl the 4th while sixers to muvh one and done. Not much running of the offence. Made it a lot easier for cats to defend.


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Supernintendo Chalmers
Two years ago
11:07 11 Oct 15

Reply #553846

re: Is grind it out games what the nbl wants?

I wasn't responding to you Swagger.


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Swagger
Two years ago
11:33 11 Oct 15

Reply #553853

re: Is grind it out games what the nbl wants?

My bad Chalmers, I misunderstood.


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Dazz
Two years ago
18:01 11 Oct 15

Reply #554019

re: Is grind it out games what the nbl wants?

Aah, and so the truth finally comes out.
If the 6's lose, it's dirty ugly basketball, everyone hates it, its the refs' fault, and the NBL must do something about it.

Call me naive, but I really thought we could get past the first week before Adelaide fans started blaming their losses on the refs.

I think the SIMPLE explanation is that Joey's plan to combat Perth's stupendous size was to outrun them, and it mostly worked for the first 3 quarters, but the 6's didn't have enough in the tank to bring it home.


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paul
Two years ago
18:40 11 Oct 15

Reply #554027

re: Is grind it out games what the nbl wants?

Tell me Dazz, who in this thread blamed the refs for the loss?


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PlaymakerMo
Two years ago
19:40 11 Oct 15

Reply #554046

re: Is grind it out games what the nbl wants?

Ash, and so the truth finally comes out.

Dazz is a wildcats fan.


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Anonymous
Two years ago
19:51 11 Oct 15

Reply #554051

re: Is grind it out games what the nbl wants?

Yeah Ash.


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PlaymakerMo
Two years ago
12:11 12 Oct 15

Reply #554187

re: Is grind it out games what the nbl wants?

^Funny guy. Aah*


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Kris G
Two years ago
12:21 12 Oct 15

Reply #554191

re: Is grind it out games what the nbl wants?

In regards to 10 min quarters not helping, why don't we do 11? ;) hit the middle ground between 10 and 12.

http://nba.nbcsports.com/2014/10/19/nbas-44-minute-game-clocks-in-at-under-two-hours-players-barely-notice/

NBL seriously needs some place for feedback / suggestions to take into consideration. They don't seem to respond to Facebook posts much and never get replies when you email them.

Having said that, LK is doing a good job in such little time so far.


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Luuuc
Two years ago
12:47 12 Oct 15

Reply #554200

re: Is grind it out games what the nbl wants?

"10 min quarters hardly helps. Players don't get into any rythm and lack repitions to get them out of shooting slumps."


One of the more 'interesting' theories I have seen lately.
How many players stay on the court for the entire 10 minutes of a quarter anyway? Of the zero that do, how many would stay for an extra 2 so that they could finally hit a shot? How many cool down so much during the brief 1Q & 3Q time breaks that it is like starting cold again in the 2nd/4th quarters?


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Anonymous
Two years ago
13:08 12 Oct 15

Reply #554205

re: Is grind it out games what the nbl wants?

I think the argument is probably I think if a game goes longer, there always more chance of someone getting hot at the end.

Part of the entertainment used to be seeing stars go for 25+ - 30 PPG regularly..


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interested observer
Two years ago
13:33 12 Oct 15

Reply #554216

re: Is grind it out games what the nbl wants?

The argument would be that with 12 minute quarters you have an extra 8 minutes of game time.

That time would likely be spread through the existing rotation and see guys getting an extra 4-5mins...

I would think that some guys may settle into a groove by getting an extra couple of minutes earlier in their game.

On the flipside of the argument, can the NBL even consider reverting to 48 minutes with the broadcast agreements in place??? I thought the big driver for the 10 minute quarters was to fit it within the broadcast timeslots?


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Kris G
Two years ago
13:46 12 Oct 15

Reply #554220

re: Is grind it out games what the nbl wants?

Yep, that's pretty much the same reason NBA were looking into condensing the game, then they smartened up and said they were going to mess with it's history, high scoring games/stats and also bench player minutes.

Like the article says, smaller rotations were going to be the problem, like it is now, no development of the other players.


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Anonymous
Two years ago
15:00 12 Oct 15

Reply #554248

re: Is grind it out games what the nbl wants?

LK next up is to get rid of the sludgeball! It is so hard to watch NBL right now.


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Dazz
Two years ago
23:00 12 Oct 15

Reply #554470

re: Is grind it out games what the nbl wants?

Tell me Dazz, who in this thread blamed the refs for the loss?

Umm, as I pointed out, that IS pretty much what this entire thread is really about.

The 6's lost, ergo it's "dirty ugly basketball" "everybody hates it", etc, etc, and yes, most of the posts explicitly blame the refs "putting away their whistles" etc, etc.
Besides, which, that's pretty much implied in the concept. If you complain that a game was too physical and "dirty," that implies criticism of the refs.

My point being, that had Adelaide won, it would have been "great physical basketball," but they lose and suddenly its "dirty and ugly."

And here's the ultimate tip. If you don't like watching defensive grind, then you are watching the wrong league, by about 20 years. Either dig out your VCR and watch re-runs of the late 80's and early 90's, or get ESPN and watch College ball.
And whatever you do, STOP watching Cats games.


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koberulz
Two years ago
23:15 12 Oct 15

Reply #554471

re: Is grind it out games what the nbl wants?

And here's the ultimate tip. If you don't like watching defensive grind, then you are watching the wrong league, by about 20 years.
I assume the zero there is a typo?


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Hoopie
Two years ago
20:47 13 Oct 15

Reply #554663

re: Is grind it out games what the nbl wants?

I disagree, Dazz - shit calling is shit calling no matter who wins.

I want to see basketball not basketbrawl!


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paul
Two years ago
21:00 13 Oct 15

Reply #554667

re: Is grind it out games what the nbl wants?

"And here's the ultimate tip. If you don't like watching defensive grind, then you are watching the wrong league, by about 20 years."

Which leagues around the world have more of an offensive focus. I suspect you've never actually seen a real grind.


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Anonymous
Two years ago
01:25 14 Oct 15

Reply #554708

re: Is grind it out games what the nbl wants?

Wow Dazz you are absolutely clueless.

Before the BA merger or thereabouts it was an offensive joy to watch. During the mid 2000s with the Kings-Tigers-Bullets dominance. Then a combination of reduction in salary cap, better players opting to go overseas, BA/40mins, etc. resulted in grindouts.

I remember thinking wtf at the weak grand final that was Wildcats Hawks not long after Kings vs Bullets vs Tigers epic finals. It slid so quickly.


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Pat
Two years ago
12:16 14 Oct 15

Reply #554789

re: Is grind it out games what the nbl wants?

I miss those 131 - 108 score games. That and Matty Earp.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQSMDvwqt64


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Bear
Two years ago
12:27 14 Oct 15

Reply #554791

re: Is grind it out games what the nbl wants?

Everything changes over time, players get better, more skillful and bigger, at the same time more athletic and more powerful.

Coaches get better, they have a better understanding of the game, the opposition, how to defend and stop the other team's runs.

It is only when we look at all the combined influences in the game over time that we can begin to comprehend just how every little complexity along the way has created what we see on court today.

The rules have changed also, and so have interpretations, so this impacts on how games are officiated today.

Consistency, then becomes difficult to obtain, so where one game is an offensive joy to watch with open play and a high percentage scoring rate, another can end up being a grind, as we have labelled it.

I am enjoying the start of the season, I hope we get more open and free flowing games and the grinds are few and far between, but the cause that creates this difference is often subtle and can't be pointed at only one thing or one team, it is much more complex than that IMHO...


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PlaymakerMo
Two years ago
13:15 14 Oct 15

Reply #554810

re: Is grind it out games what the nbl wants?

Dazz, try to refrain from making mentalistic assumptions and twisting quotes from other posters to suit your argument.

This thread has been predominately discussing the entertainment aspect of the 36ers-Wildcats game and how the officials approach the Wildcats' style of play, not blaming the refs for the 36ers losing.

Moreover, forget about the previous 20 years of the NBL: if you'd watched any other game in round 1 of this season - (no-so)coincidentally, none that included the Wildcats - you wouldn't have seen the "defensive grind" i.e. 'basketbrawl', wrestleball', we saw in the second half in Adelaide.


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paul
Two years ago
14:28 14 Oct 15

Reply #554816

re: Is grind it out games what the nbl wants?

The reality is, the general rule in basketball is as quality improves, scoring declines. Across each continent, the highest quality league is amongst the lowest scoring.

That's where how you inteprit the rules of the game becomes important, as does the approach of coaches and their players, but the NBL, with the exception of a few years from around 1998-2000 and a couple of years following the ref crackdown in 2010, has always had an offensive mindset.

The past two years have had close to the highest scoring rate since the NBL became a truly professional comp in the mid-late 90s, and the majority of years the NBL has a higher scoring rate than the NBA.


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Pat
Two years ago
14:39 14 Oct 15

Reply #554818

re: Is grind it out games what the nbl wants?

True that, but final scores of 59 for a team aint gonna win over any fans..


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Pat
Two years ago
14:40 14 Oct 15

Reply #554819

re: Is grind it out games what the nbl wants?

The casual ones at least..


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paul
Two years ago
14:48 14 Oct 15

Reply #554821

re: Is grind it out games what the nbl wants?

What percentage of NBL games have had a final score of 59?


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paul
Two years ago
15:04 14 Oct 15

Reply #554823

re: Is grind it out games what the nbl wants?

The perception of a grind comes because teams here play scrappy, physical defence, pushing the limits of the refs. In seasons like 2001, 2010 and 2014 when things are called very tightly the product looks a lot better because offensive players can show off their skills.

The level of scrappy physicality is an issue that needs to be addressed consistently, because to the casual fan it just looks like bad basketball. In reality, the fact the league is still the highest scoring of the top leagues around the world is quite impressive. That doesn't help convert new fans though, particularly on TV.


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Supernintendo Chalmers
Two years ago
15:06 14 Oct 15

Reply #554824

re: Is grind it out games what the nbl wants?

No sooner than they do a crackdown on physicality then another group of fans (actually probably the same group) will start complaining that the refs need to "let them play."


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Redman
Two years ago
15:25 14 Oct 15

Reply #554830

re: Is grind it out games what the nbl wants?

Either way, as long as they find out how to get higher scoring games and stars gunning for 30 again, might get some casual fans in again.

Australia has no shortage of basketball/NBA fans, the NBA League Pass stats help prove that somewhat, not to mention grassroots participation. So if you're not doing your best to appeal to that group, you're not gonna get anywhere.

Entertainment peoples, Entertainment.


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paul
Two years ago
15:27 14 Oct 15

Reply #554831

re: Is grind it out games what the nbl wants?

Absolutely! Happens every time. It needs to be done very early in the pre-season so all teams can prepare for it. The teams need to embrace it and the refs need to monitor it consistently.

It doesn't need to be calling every bit of contact, just being consistently tough on defenders who initiate contact and being tough on defenders who slide under airborne offensive players, rather than rewarding them with charges as has been the NBL way for a long time now (I feel in Round 1 they called the charge/block pretty well for the most part).


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PlaymakerMo
Two years ago
15:30 14 Oct 15

Reply #554835

re: Is grind it out games what the nbl wants?

True, Supernintendo Chalmers. It's evidently a difficult balance for officials to maintain.

But by way of example: I thought the refs had that balance fairly well worked out in the other 6 games in round 1.

The "let them play" complaint is reflective of players not adapting to the referees interpretations quickly enough. It's understandable, especially given that some of the culprits have played this style the majority of their careers, but allowing them to push the boundaries can be bad for the NBL product.

Players and coaches need communication from officials regarding their direction so they have the opportunity to adapt, then the officials need to consistently follow through for an extended period of time. As Paul has eluded to: we haven't really had the latter occur of late.


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paul
Two years ago
15:34 14 Oct 15

Reply #554837

re: Is grind it out games what the nbl wants?

Agree with you re Round 1 Mo, I thought the Adelaide-Perth game was definitely the exception, and that was probably the weakest crew of the round too.

The test comes next time two teams really push the boundaries, do the refs put the whistles away? If they do, all the other clubs will take notice and become more physical to push those limits.


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Luuuc
Two years ago
15:39 14 Oct 15

Reply #554840

re: Is grind it out games what the nbl wants?

I thought the first half of 36ers-Cats was some very entertaining basketball.
What changed?


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paul
Two years ago
15:46 14 Oct 15

Reply #554844

re: Is grind it out games what the nbl wants?

It changed early to mid second quarter, both teams upping the defensive physicality to try and contain their oppo who were scoring freely. The game was in a rhythm so understandably the refs let it flow, but the physicality just grew and grew without the refs reclaiming control.


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Mike
Two years ago
15:49 14 Oct 15

Reply #554846

re: Is grind it out games what the nbl wants?

Maybe they should have made it #Smoothball instead


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paul
Two years ago
15:53 14 Oct 15

Reply #554847

re: Is grind it out games what the nbl wants?

The other key area for the NBL to change is perception. Oer the past two seasons, almost half of scores have been 85 or above (102ppg in 48min games) and only about 20% have been below 75 (90ppg in 48min games), yet the perception exists that NBL games are 65-58 defensive slogs.

That's where the TV production and the work making highlights available to the public become crucial. There were a heap of highlights from opening round yet where can I see them without scrolling back through the NBL twitter feed?

Links to this plays should be front and centre on the NBL website, pumped out again on social media during the week to promote upcoming games, they should be replayed in subsequent TV broadcasts, and the NBL should invest in ads on Fox Sports showcasing the best plays to a catchy tune.

Without changing perceptions it will be hard for the NBL to make ground.


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paul
Two years ago
21:38 14 Oct 15

Reply #555006

re: Is grind it out games what the nbl wants?

Tonight was another game where the physicality just grew and grew and the refs let too much go, which in the end forced them to call a lot because both NZ and Illawarra were pushing the boundaries so far.

There was so much niggly contact let go in that game that by the end it barely resembled basketball.

As for the refs calling the charge/block well in Round 1 (which they did), tonight's crew was back to the old Aussie way, Matt Beattie (who's a decent ref) falling for flops all over the place.

Thankfully Penney and Co were able to put on a show and make the game entertaining.


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Luuuc
Two years ago
21:56 14 Oct 15

Reply #555009

re: Is grind it out games what the nbl wants?

Agree about the flopping.
Just because a body goes flying doesn't mean a whistle needs to be blown. I get that it's probably a hard habit to break out of.


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Swagger
Two years ago
22:41 14 Oct 15

Reply #555023

re: Is grind it out games what the nbl wants?

Dazz, if you were paying attention to what I originally wrote, and the timing of when I wrote it, the Sixers actually had a small lead. Not that will make you change your mind.

Paul, agree with everything you have said. I only watched the first half tonight and it was decent to watch, a few dunks, a good shooting display from Penny, the curtain made the crowd look better than what it was with not many empty seats on tv. Could have been more of a contest but can't have everything, and the fast pace made it feasible for New Zealand to quickly make a run. Disappointing to hear it slowed down a lot in the second half.


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