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Anonymous
Last month

#40638

Is it time to start crowd funding refs for the nbl

Perth vs bris. Enough said.

That was one of the more disgusting things i have seen in a while. And it unfortunately isn't even close to an isolated incodent.

I am not saying they impacted the game one way or the other. I am saying the didn't let us watch a game. We expected and deserved an interesting game given circumstances. We didn't get it.


Individual calls mean nothing here there were too many howlers both ways for them to matter.

My question is this. Would you join in with me if I or someone with more influence than me started a crowd funding collection to actually buy the salary of one or several decent refs. So we could actually enjoy our sport as it starts to expand again.

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Duke Fan
Last month
22:35 9 Jan 17

Reply #617563

re: Is it time to start crowd funding refs for the nbl

1. So we pay for "several" of these mythical foolproof refs.....do they do every game every round?

2. Where are they anyway? Refs are shit worldwide


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Brutal Game
Last month
22:50 9 Jan 17

Reply #617565

re: Is it time to start crowd funding refs for the nbl

I wouldn't even donate one cent to those cheating bastards.


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Anonymous
Last month
23:39 9 Jan 17

Reply #617571

re: Is it time to start crowd funding refs for the nbl

I must admit I have just come to accept this poor level as normal, which isn't good enough


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Anonymous
Last month
07:11 10 Jan 17

Reply #617585

re: Is it time to start crowd funding refs for the nbl

Look forward to the up and coming kids being equally as bad.


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PeterJohn
Last month
08:06 10 Jan 17

Reply #617588

re: Is it time to start crowd funding refs for the nbl

Maybe it'd be useful to crowd fund ref-cams? It'd be good to see what they see when some of the dubious calls are made. At the moment, camera angles are from a different point of view than the ref's, for most calls.

Or introduce team challenges for ref's calls, similar to the NFL? i.e., a team's coach can ask for a call to be reviewed. If the review results in no change to the call, the team loses a time-out. If the result is a changed call, no loss of time-out. A challenge review can only change a call if the review finds unequivocal reason to change the call. Maximum of 2 challenges per half.

You'd need to restrict the scope of changes to the confirming or refuting the specific call itself and not other things that a review might show. e.g., revealing an uncalled foul prior to the one called, on a different player. But that's manageable.


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Isaac
Last month
08:53 10 Jan 17

Reply #617591

re: Is it time to start crowd funding refs for the nbl

No. Onus is on the league to make improvements. Whether it's giving refs more grounds to review, or specific training they're yet to include or similar.

PeterJohn, they had a ref cam earlier in the season. I think people complained more than not, and I haven't seen it since.


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Anonymous
Last month
08:55 10 Jan 17

Reply #617592

re: Is it time to start crowd funding refs for the nbl

Ref cam was last season. Hasnt been used this season at all.


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spot up
Last month
09:52 10 Jan 17

Reply #617596

re: Is it time to start crowd funding refs for the nbl

I'll say something in defence of the refs (I've had many techs and been ejected a number of times too, so I'm not always this measured).

It's a bloody hard game to officiate, and any level. Even if the refs are better trained, etc the angle you have on a play can make things appear differently for you to someone else. Different and better training and resourcing for refs is the only way it'll improve, not just continued criticism (justified or otherwise).

I also think there just needs to be a greater respect shown to refs generally. This will make it more attractive for people to become refs, and if you have a greater talent pool naturally you'll get better quality at the top.


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Gus3232
Last month
11:02 10 Jan 17

Reply #617607

re: Is it time to start crowd funding refs for the nbl

The refs would only have to do ONE thing to make me stop going on about them. STOP F**KING GUESSING CALLS. Infuriating.


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Freethrows
Last month
11:07 10 Jan 17

Reply #617608

re: Is it time to start crowd funding refs for the nbl

I have to back up @spot up on this one. It's incredibly difficult to referee a basketball game, and I'd imagine that the NBL is degrees of magnitude harder to ref than the low level club games I've officiated in times gone by.

I don't think that goes to excuse the generally poor level of refereeing we have seen in the NBL this year, however, especially with full time refs now employed.

The best way to spend crowd funding for referees would be to put more money into training the up and coming refs to provide a better game for the future. It wouldn't be difficult, with the technology that's available now, for junior refs to be able to watch games live (which would be a great use of ref-cam) and have senior referees assist them in understanding the calls that have been made - good or bad.


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Anonymous
Last month
11:07 10 Jan 17

Reply #617609

re: Is it time to start crowd funding refs for the nbl

Wow - what a bunch of whiners. Nothing screams 'im a casual fan with no real basketball knowledge' like this kind of refereeing hate.

Refs will always be imperfect. Players miss more than half their shots, lets crowd fun our own team that shoots 100%.


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Luuuc
Last month
11:40 10 Jan 17

Reply #617614

re: Is it time to start crowd funding refs for the nbl

I agree with spot up & Freethrows. It would make their job a lot easier if they were showed some basic respect.
I was actually surprised yesterday that Prather & McKay didn't cop techs for some of their carry-on. They probably should have, even though it's obvious why McKay in particular was frustrated. Calls are going to be missed no matter who is officiating, and players & coaches need to be better at dealing with that. It must weigh on your mind as a ref when you've got everyone out there carrying on demonstrably after every second possession. Having that in the back of your mind is only going to cloud your judgement further I reckon.
Cleaning that up would be an easy first step to take. They shouldn't be mates, but players, coaches & refs should be civil to each other. If they're not, start dishing out techs.
Step 1 of improving the situation is making the most of what we already have. There aren't a heap of amazing refs just sitting out there waiting for the salary to be right before they step forward.

Gus is right too. Bad calls aren't so bad to cop when something occurs that the refs didn't see. What's much worse is when nothing has occurred but a ref guesses/assumes that it has, and blows the whistle.

One other thing. I don't want the game slowed down too much with excessive reviewing, but I think there could be some merit in giving each team one "challenge" per half. Maybe it's something they could trial in the opening round of next season to see if it works.


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Anonymous
Last month
12:21 10 Jan 17

Reply #617622

re: Is it time to start crowd funding refs for the nbl

Problem with 3 refs being imperfect is that they ultimately will affect the games outcome. A player missing a shot generally won't make that difference.


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Duke Fan
Last month
12:52 10 Jan 17

Reply #617626

re: Is it time to start crowd funding refs for the nbl

"Wow - what a bunch of whiners. Nothing screams 'im a casual fan with no real basketball knowledge' like this kind of refereeing hate.

Refs will always be imperfect. Players miss more than half their shots"

Thanks for your input Ref.

I'd be interested to know if anybody could provide some information on what the work week for a full time NBL ref consists of? I have no knowledge or experience of what's involved.

Apart from my lack of knowledge there, I can say with 100 percent certainty as a player for 30 years, a referee for 10 years and then a coach for the past 16, that at all other levels of the game players and coaches put far more time and effort into honing their skills, and are more accountable, than referees.

The argument that refs aren't perfect and neither are players doesn't wash with me.


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Jason
Last month
13:00 10 Jan 17

Reply #617628

re: Is it time to start crowd funding refs for the nbl

Professional ref spots would be a great start. No, it's not going to change things overnight but if all of a sudden there is a lot more on the line to keeping your job.

As well as that, it also provides a legitmate "job in basketball" for young people who aren't good enough to make it at as a player. Again, this increases competition for the spots which can only improve the quality.

As it stands currently, it is bloody hard to get refs at every level. As long as this is the case then it's always going to be hit and miss as no league can afford to cut poor performing refs loose.


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Anonymous
Last month
13:13 10 Jan 17

Reply #617630

re: Is it time to start crowd funding refs for the nbl

Duke fan

You say: Apart from my lack of knowledge there, I can say with 100 percent certainty as a player for 30 years, a referee for 10 years and then a coach for the past 16, that at all other levels of the game players and coaches put far more time and effort into honing their skills, and are more accountable, than referees.

You also say: I'd be interested to know if anybody could provide some information on what the work week for a full time NBL ref consists of? I have no knowledge or experience of what's involved.

If you have no knowledge or experience of what referees do how can you say that players and coaches put in more time honing their skills and are more accountable than referees? If you dont know you cannot make such a sweeping statement.

Any comparisons between players and referees is mute. Players can go to the gym and put up 100 shots and practice without it being a game situation. Without games actually being played referee's can't practice!! They can watch a million game tapes and work on fitness etc but actually blowing the whistle, practicing block/charge situations, looking for the pivot foot whilst the player is being closely guarded etc they must be on court.


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Anonymous
Last month
13:16 10 Jan 17

Reply #617631

re: Is it time to start crowd funding refs for the nbl

"If you have no knowledge or experience of what referees do how can you say that players and coaches put in more time honing their skills and are more accountable than referees? If you dont know you cannot make such a sweeping statement."

You've certainly got the eyesight of a ref! He was specifically talking about what being an NBL ref entails.


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Duke Fan
Last month
13:29 10 Jan 17

Reply #617633

re: Is it time to start crowd funding refs for the nbl

I suggest you read my post again^^
Put your thicker glasses on this time


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Pop
Last month
14:03 10 Jan 17

Reply #617637

re: Is it time to start crowd funding refs for the nbl

I don't think anyone is asking for refereeing perfection and don't recall seeing that ever suggested. What I am hearing is a call for consistency and 'fairness', which I am confident could be improved in one fell swoop by minimising the number of arbitrary/discretionary decisions.

Putting that particular hobby horse aside, some genuine information/communication [i.e. not spin/PR] about what is going on in the world of NBL officials, what they are trying to achieve, how the administrators are working to improve the situation [assuming they are], and so on would help improve perceptions and understanding. So too would some accountability, like the referees coach/manager admitting when there has been an issue, when there is a current 'focus' and so on.

As previously acknowledged no-one is perfect, so one of the constant irritants is the nonsense position that referees can do no wrong or are never wrong. Everyone makes mistakes, so it is nonsensical to suggest that no referee ever makes a mistake, which seems to be the standard position. Admitting error - at least from time to time - would be a significant step towards improving understanding of the official's lot and winning public support/sympathy.

Of course, it would help if coaches and players set out to play/operate within the rules as much as possible instead of pushing the limits, which immediately puts officials under pressure and ultimately on the defensive. As a simple example, if a coach coaches/drills legal footwork there will be less travel calls to arbitrate; if a coach coaches legal defense and good screen technique there will be less illegal contact to arbitrate.

I agree that respect is important, but it is important to realise that you get respect by earning it, not by demanding it or by tech fouls [though I'm not against a good tech occasionally] and the concept of earning respect might be something the officials 'powers that be' might profitably spend some time working through.

That said, maybe the officials, coaches and players, perhaps through the players' association, could agree to respect each others' roles and agree that officials won't coach ['stop holding', 'hands off', 'straight up', 'don't block'- they're there to make decisions and blow the whistle, not tell players how to play; the player and the coach has already decided that] and that the coaches and the players won't referee - which could be limited by the officials not entering into discussion with coaches and players during the game, which must break their concentration and so I suspect is contributing to the issues being raised in this and similar discussions.

And reviews, whether initiated by an official or a team/coach are NOT the answer in my opinion. The few we have now delay and disrupt the game, destroying tempo and momentum and I'd get rid of all of them, whatever the NBA does.


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Bear
Last month
14:12 10 Jan 17

Reply #617638

re: Is it time to start crowd funding refs for the nbl

@Pop, this:

That said, maybe the officials, coaches and players, perhaps through the players' association, could agree to respect each others' roles and agree that officials won't coach ['stop holding', 'hands off', 'straight up', 'don't block'- they're there to make decisions and blow the whistle, not tell players how to play; the player and the coach has already decided that] and that the coaches and the players won't referee - which could be limited by the officials not entering into discussion with coaches and players during the game, which must break their concentration and so I suspect is contributing to the issues being raised in this and similar discussions.

Well put and spot on mate!


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Anonymous
Last month
14:12 10 Jan 17

Reply #617639

re: Is it time to start crowd funding refs for the nbl

agree that officials won't coach ['stop holding', 'hands off', 'straight up', 'don't block'- they're there to make decisions and blow the whistle, not tell players how to play;

It is a coaching concept called preventive officiating. Its an attempt to stop the silly hands fouls etc and get the game to flow. The problem is it is overused. If your still talking in the 4th its not working.


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KET
Last month
14:36 10 Jan 17

Reply #617648

re: Is it time to start crowd funding refs for the nbl

Very much on point pop!


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koberulz
Last month
14:51 10 Jan 17

Reply #617655

re: Is it time to start crowd funding refs for the nbl

It is a coaching concept called preventive officiating. Its an attempt to stop the silly hands fouls etc and get the game to flow. The problem is it is overused. If your still talking in the 4th its not working.
The problem isn't that it's overused, it's that it's used wrong. You should never have to say something twice. Say it, if there's no change, blow the whistle. Instead, you hear "hands off, hands off, hands off, hands off, hands off" for seven or eight seconds.


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Anonymous
Last month
15:05 10 Jan 17

Reply #617659

re: Is it time to start crowd funding refs for the nbl

Doesn't that mean its being overused?


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Bobby
Last month
16:54 10 Jan 17

Reply #617685

re: Is it time to start crowd funding refs for the nbl

I don't get it. All season long the refs wants players to play straight up. Hands in the air defence. Yet Jervis on a number of occassions had his hands all over the face of McKay and they had the gore to call travel on McKay even though it's a clear foul against Jervis. Plus, since two players have a handle on the ball it should be play on when McKay lands back down on the court.


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koberulz
Last month
17:00 10 Jan 17

Reply #617691

re: Is it time to start crowd funding refs for the nbl

That's not the rule, and has never been the rule.


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Anonymous
Last month
18:17 10 Jan 17

Reply #617711

re: Is it time to start crowd funding refs for the nbl

"play on" = either a travel or a possession arrow


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Maxymoo
Last month
18:21 10 Jan 17

Reply #617712

re: Is it time to start crowd funding refs for the nbl

I've been involved in bball for a long time as both a player and coach, and in those thousand plus games ...I think maybe a handful of games were perhaps won or lost on poor reffing.

I think there are 3 major things we could do (and sorry crowd funding just missed the cut).

The most obvious and pressing solution is to get more people refereeing, expand the talent pool and make the pathways clear.

Secondary to this is respect for the ref. The above does not happen as no one wants to be the guy/gal being berated - especially at Jr level but hey it goes to the top too. I'm a Cats fan and I tell you Gleeson should get about 5 more T's a season for some of his over the top antics.

Finally from the reffing fraternity and governing groups - we don't want robots and let a bit of personality filter through. Directives (like at WABL level) that you shouldn't talk to a ref during a game nor should they talk back is a mistake.....I like banter, I understand it is due to the abuse but tackle the abuse not make it so they can't be part of the great game.

Plus anyone who hasn't refereed a game and is teeing off, you try and judge a charge/block call - it's hard.

I get told you've missed 2 calls, I say you've missed 4 jump shots ....funny thin is then players get n their high horses.

I aint as bad as you think, it aint as easy as you think and finally - be part of the solution ...encourage a kid to referee, seek them out after game and shake their hands and tell em they did a great job.






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SteveK2
Last month
20:06 10 Jan 17

Reply #617731

re: Is it time to start crowd funding refs for the nbl

OP's topic meandered somewhat.

Even if we raised enough fund, would the NBL allow it? Who would we employ? I can't think of any outside the two already full time and one of them (Mayberry) was reffing the game that OP was incensed enough to start this thread.

Isaac is right the onus is on the NBL to elevate the standard. I miss the old days of Eddie Crouch and Billy Mildenhall umpiring. Somehow convince the NBL to involve those two, draw from their wealth of experience to train young and upcoming umpires.


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Jumpshot
Last month
20:44 10 Jan 17

Reply #617733

re: Is it time to start crowd funding refs for the nbl

Basketball is getting too fast for the Refs, and they are making huge errors. I suggested years ago, they need to use the video ref if they are not sure, and allow each team 2 challenges per quarter.


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Jumpshot
Last month
20:47 10 Jan 17

Reply #617734

re: Is it time to start crowd funding refs for the nbl

This is not the 80's. Use the technology that we have and be the leaders of FIBA. Make better use of the video ref. It's simple.


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Jumpshot
Last month
20:49 10 Jan 17

Reply #617736

re: Is it time to start crowd funding refs for the nbl

"I don't get it. All season long the refs wants players to play straight up. Hands in the air defence. Yet Jervis on a number of occassions had his hands all over the face of McKay and they had the gore to call travel on McKay even though it's a clear foul against Jervis."

Agreed. This was terrible. Obvious fouls on McKay on several occasions.


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Dazz
Last month
02:29 11 Jan 17

Reply #617767

re: Is it time to start crowd funding refs for the nbl

In all honesty, the problem is simple.
There has been the same problem in many sports over the years.

The problem is not that refs make "mistakes."
The problem is that the ref makes the best call he can, based on what he saw whilst trying to monitor 10 players, in real time. THEN the techs find a camera angle that just happens to show something different, they whack it up on the big screen in SLOW motion, and the commentators ooh and aagh for the next 20 minutes. Pull it up again at half time, and it then gets dissected ad nauseum in the days following, with everybody having a gander on twitter, youtube, etc.

Cricket had the same issue. The poor umpire had to judge it in real time, with a ball travelling 100mph. Then the tv coverage slows it down a 100 times, uses the "snickometer," the infrared "hot-spot" vision, and the computer generated tracking to show that he got it "wrong".
And here's the interesting part, the umpire did NOT "get it wrong." According to the rules of the game, he made the best call he could, based on the information available. Obviously the human eye is no match for infra-red vision slowed down 100x.
Cricket had to do what so many other sports have, and introduce a video umpire who used the same stuff the telecast crew were using.

The ONLY answer to this conundrum, is some form of video ref. I'm not saying they MUST do it, but if they don't the problem will never go away. No human, monitoring 10 players, and on the watch for so many different things, can ever compete with selective video replay.

I do have issues with the consistency of some calls and interpretations, but again some of that can be explained on the same basis. We see two incidents on slow-mo, and they appear to be the same, but the refs saw them differently.


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