Jack Toft
Last year

NH: Australia Day, or Invasion Day

There is quite a discussion on at the moment relating to Jan 26. It's officially our National Day and apart from lamb barbies, backyard cricket, green and gold, kangaroos and local council citizenship ceremonies, some people are calling it "Invasion Day", the day when the Union Jack was raised in Botany Bay in 1788 and New South Wales declared a colony.

After a few other colonies were started (including our NZ friends) and after NSW was cut and shut around a bit (yes Christchurch was officially administrated by NSW at one stage, and let's not forget that Queensland was once NSW), the colonies of the Great South Land came together as Australia on Jan 1 1901.

People calling Jan 26 Invasion Day say it is offensive to aboriginals and only re-inforces their misery as a reminder of the colonisation, or invasion.

I guess I pose these questions to you punters.
Should we change the date? If so, to what date? Should we even have a National Day at all? If we keep the date of our National Day, is there anything we can do to make it more inclusive to aboriginal people?

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Anonymous  
Last year

January 1st 1901 is the date of Federation.

It makes sense to me that January 1 should be Australia Day - it's the day we became a country.

Having the date on January 26 is insensitive and excludes an important part of the population.

I would happily have January 1st and 2nd as public holidays.

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KET  
Last year

National day is fine; the date has changed several times previously so there's no reason why we can’t change it again.

Jan 26th is a stupid day to do it, of all the days this is obvious one not to do.

Arguments people pose against moving:

The day isn’t about invasion it’s about other things - This is a cop out, There is no secret of the connotation and it’s fair that many feel it.

Someone will always be offended no matter what day you choose - That’s crap - we have plenty of days in the year that go uncontroversial, we could move it to any number of days, 30th of Jan anyone?

This should be one of the easier public issues to solve. Next time we shouldn’t be so stupid in the first place!

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KET  
Last year

Agreed with anon Jan 2 is a good date

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Isaac  
Last year

Separately, I think we should adopt NT's Picnic Day (early August) nationally.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picnic_Day_(Australian_holiday)

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AngusH  
Last year

Change the date. Too much bad blood (literally) re: the 26th. Celebrate our country on any other historic date, call it whatever. Who cares, let's just eat food, drink beer, and be happy.

A bigger issue is, can we ban Latham from making awful commercials? Actually, can we ban him from being seen and/or heard?

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Ricey  
Last year

May 8 is the most Australian day to hold it

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Luuuc  
Last year

I'm selfish and therefore don't want my Australia Day public holiday crammed too close to Christmas/New Year, so August sounds great to me. The back half of the year has always needed an extra public holiday.

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KET  
Last year

Agreed we don't need to suffer seeing or hearing Latham

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KET  
Last year

Luuuc makes good point re needing a public holiday on the backend

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Jack Toft  
Last year

Sorry Ricey, why May 8th?

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Anonymous  
Last year

I'm fine if they decide to change it. The only thing that's annoyed me a bit is Triple J changing their hottest 100 date this year so it isn't on Aus Day. Personally think it should have stayed on Jan 26th holiday while that was still Aus day, then changed it to what ever date they eventually make the public holiday.

(and no I'm neither a hipster JJJ fanboy or some bogan lol)

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Jack Toft  
Last year

Isaac, the picnic day is a good idea. All the public holidays are jammed in around that Christmas time and maybe an August long weekend could spread it.

I do like Jan 1 and I do like the Aussie way of having the holiday on the second, just because....

There are not too many other common days in Australia that the states share. Maybe August 27th - Don Bradman's birthday for the cricket tragics.
September 26 is when Australia 2 won the America's Cup, maybe that's an alternate day. Any boss who doesn't give a day off is a bum.

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Btown  
Last year

"Sorry Ricey, why May 8th?"

May 8,m8, mate


You can't have it after New Years, no one will go see the fireworks.

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Waves2Lynx  
Last year

Stop having a foreigner who by birth gets to be our Head of State, become a republic SPECIFICALLY on a day that's convenient and not close to any other major public holidays.

2 birds, 1 stone.

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Anonymous  
Last year

Exactly... get rid of the monarchy ffs it's about time.

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KET  
Last year

What about becoming a republic and making Obama's president?

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UseTaHoop  
Last year

What about Proclomation Day?

Just to continue the weird Adelaide/SA business on the forum

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LoveBroker  
Last year

If some people want to be offended by it, they are free to do so.

Frankly I don't care what day its on, but celebrating the day our Western ancestors landed is not a bad thing. Australia, the country, is better off for it.

Yes the first people on the land did not fare as well, but we've compensated that through Mabo and the Native Title Act. Billions of dollars have gone towards recognising their title.



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Anonymous  
Last year

I'm going to evict your family from their property and celebrate the moment annually. If you want to be offended by that then go right ahead. If everyone else in my community thinks I'm being inappropriate then they are welcome to say so too. Oh look that's what they all seem to be doing.

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Anonymous  
Last year

"... did not fare as well"

Talk about an understatement!

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-  
Last year

all people need to live together and share - do not politicise a celebration.

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Anon2  
Last year

LOL x 2 at the "did not fare as well" part

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Anon2  
Last year

Logically speaking I agree with whoever pointed out that the day of federation makes more sense as the one we should celebrate as a nation.
Love the May 8 call too. I think that has my vote.

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Anonymous  
Last year

The end to middle of year which has very little public holidays would be best as already suggested...

make it at least always fall on a Friday so you get a long weekend...

Hell make it a Friday and Monday that's the Australian spirit... 4 day weekend!

you should not get too many people saying no if changing 1 holiday for 2!

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Anonymous  
Last year

What ever it changes to I think it would need to be a date in Dec/Jan/Feb, for a country like Australia not having the national holiday in summer just wouldn't feel right.

I do love May 8 though lol

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UseTaHoop  
Last year

As long as we remain "girt by sea", we can all be happy.

What country has a more obscure word in their anthem?

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LoveBroker  
Last year

"I'm going to evict your family from their property and celebrate the moment annually."

You are applying today's laws back 250 years.

Those settlers believed that they were discovering a new land (Terra Nullius) and did not recognise the deep culture of the natives nor their relationship to the land at that time.

Was it wrong to do so? Perhaps, but consider how the country has grown since then. When can we move on?

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Anonymous  
Last year

I'm gonna hazard a guess that it will be easier to move on once we stop rubbing the date of our landing in their faces every year. It really does not seem like a big ask. More like common decency.

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Jack Toft  
Last year

The May 8 date is growing on me but I must admit, a holiday in Dec/Jan/Feb in the Aussie summer seems Australian. Australia Day in June with rain seems "un-Australian"

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Anonymous  
Last year

Solution:
1. Become a republic
2. Switch the names of May & December
3. Maaaaaaate, have a happy Australia Day!

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LoveBroker  
Last year

"I'm gonna hazard a guess that it will be easier to move on once we stop rubbing the date of our landing in their faces every year. It really does not seem like a big ask. More like common decency."

No...the outrage will never stop.

If it were, it would have stopped once on 2 other major events.

1) Recognition that Terra Nullius did not apply and the Mabo case was won, opening the door for the Native Title Act and subsequent claims. Billions of dollars have been paid by the Austraian Taxpayer and Mining companies as a result.

2) When Kevin Rudd said sorry on behalf of the country.

On top of this we have taxpayer funded schemes that are ONLY for ATSI persons :

- Community Housing.
- Welfare payments.
- Educational assistance.

We as a nation have already gone out of our way to try and lift the quality of ATSI communities and their lives.

I don't believe we owe them anymore, even token gestures like a change in day.

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LV  
Last year

Australia Day morning should be transformed into a remembrance day or Anzac Day style event whereby past wrongs are solemnly remembered and made right.

And then the afternoon can become an afternoon of Festivals where we celebrate what's great about our nation.

This suggestion, made by John Dickson, is the only one I've heard that paves a sensible middle path on this issue, and the only one that I believe truly has potential to unite the nation.

Whether you personally agree with January 26 or not, it seems pretty obvious that changing it would be divisive in the sense that it would annoy a lot of people for whom January 26 means a great deal- for example, a friend of mine who today posted how he personally became a citizen on January 26.

People are suggesting we appease a growing number of people who want change. All this will do is transfer the angry minority to someone else.

Of course, it'll be impossible to please everyone. But, why not solemnly remember the dark aspects of the past AND celebrate our great nation all on the same day? So, why can't we, as a nation learn to walk and chew gum at the same time?

Don't CHANGE the date. Don't SAVE the date. MAKE the date something better. Transform it.

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HomicideRulz  
Last year

Ok first all, lets get this out of the way.

Australia Day is one of the top 5 public holidays in this league! I mean country.

I'm telling you now, if you get rid of the public holiday, people are going to be upset.

I guarantee you, the way to solve this problem is to keep January 26th as a public holiday, just change the name. Then add another public holiday on another date.

It's a wavvy win, win!

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LV  
Last year

Whenever I ponder this issue, I can never get Geoffrey Blainey's Great Dilemma out of my mind.

"In a bumper year Australia feeds not only it's own people but the equivalent of more than eighty million people living in nations as far apart as Egypt and China. Australia also supplies hundreds of millions of overseas people with all the coal, iron, other minerals and fibres that they need. One of it's achievements in the last 200 years is to multiply enormously, for the benefit of much of the world, the annual produce of a difficult continent. So we return full circle to that insoluble dilemma: how do we weigh the loss suffered since 1788 by a host of Aborigines alongside the gains made by perhaps one hundred times as many other human beings in Australia and lands across the seas?"

I don't have an answer. There isn't really an "answer" I suppose. It's a moral dilemma really, isn't it?

Taking the land of a people group is not OK- it's not a fair or decent way to act at all. On the other hand, hundreds of millions of people - a great deal of humanity - has benefited from that land.

You could say the world is a better place as a result of the "invasion" or "Settlement"- whatever you want to call it. But of course, not for everyone... Yet, even many Aborigines are thankful for the things that were brought here by the Brits.

It's a tough one.

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Anonymous  
Last year

It's really not a tough one at all IMO.

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LV  
Last year

To phrase the "tough one" in a slightly different way...

- January 26 was a day that ultimately led to a lot of grief and suffering for many indigenous people

and...

- January 26 was a major milestone towards Australia becoming the great place it is today, for many different reasons

Both of these statements are simultanously correct, in my view. And fairly obviously so.

Why can't we acknowledge, celebrate and state both on the same day?

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LV  
Last year

(As in, acknowledge the first statement, and celebrate the second one as we celebrate what Australia is today)

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Anonymous  
Last year

LV with the thesis lol

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LV  
Last year

Not a thesis, but it's something I've thought a bit about in the past couple of years.

Went to Europe in 2015, was impressed and excited by the history and then realised how little I knew of Australia's history.

So I read a few history books- from historians of various persuasions including right and left wing.

And I also know people who feel quite passionate about this. For example a guy I used to play basketball with, he runs a business and let his staff work on Jan 26 and take a different day in lieu.

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Luuuc  
Last year

It's fiendishly perplexing I agree.
Do we choose to celebrate as a whole, inclusive nation on
* one of the most divisive days of our history, or
* one of the 300+ other days that aren't a slap in the face
Hmmm

BUT! then think of the consequences of changing:
* calendar/diary printers would have to change their document templates
* the lives of people who became citizens on Jan 26 would be rendered virtually meaningless
* help me out here... there must be so many more...

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The Rooster  
Last year

Are, do-Goodger's, don't you just love them. I hope all of the do-Goodger's who have received any Australia Day honor, hand them back. Oh, no, don't think that will happen.

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KET  
Last year

LV, I dare say the reason we can't is because the indigenous still feel heavily inflicted by it.

Considering the way they've been treated and continue to be, it's unlikely that will change anytime soon.

And I mean, think from their perspective why should they?

Simultaneously in our long history of Australia doing good - we were also committing murder, taking children away, segregating, depriving them of votes & representation.

Do we honestly expect them to be blase about it?

Let's not pretend Australia has cleared the air on this issue, because we haven't.

I think LoveBroker's opinion is very much proof of that. LB's opinion isn't an uncommon one in our community and it lends itself to the same absurdities that raise ire to begin with, such as Australia Day on 26th; Declaration of Terra Nullius etc.

There is this belief that Indigenous get lots of help to the unfairness of others and that it's time to stop being outraged or blaming generations who haven't done anything wrong.

When Australia deprived indigenous of representation, the ability to vote, to shape our system; when we segregated and regulated their opportunities; when we broke their families and instilled an environment ripe for mental health issues, drugs, crime etc - we created problems 1) enormous in cost and 2) impossible to lift to "contemporary standards" within a few generations.

In law and our justice system, we have this concept which is about "providing a means for returning the wronged person to the position they were in before the wrong was done."

The only problem with that is, the damage was so severe, compensation is genuinely impossible. If we were to attempt it, it would crush our economy. We created a cost we can't bare.

So we've got a dilemma - we've got a group of people who were forced into a situation of being in a different class. They can't be adequately compensated, because that would ruin our economy and therefore meaningless to them because they're part of our economy.

But we can't allow the class divide to continue to exist because that in itself comes with huge costs - including prison system, judiciary, policing, health, rehabilitation and other welfare.

The reality is the sh!t the past generation pulled doesn't just stop when we stopped pulling sh!t on them [despite many believing so].

It continues for many generations - hundreds of years

Pretending the cost doesn't exist isn't an option because reality is it does; pretending there's a class of people who should be able to just get themselves out of it after being so heavily oppressed and deprived is simple delusion.

So, past generations screwed up, they screwed up bad. Australia has to live with the cost, we don't have a choice in it.

The best way to not go through this is to not pull the sh!t in the first place.

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UseTaHoop  
Last year

Can the anon above "not a tough one"

please show their not-tough, succinct, non-thesis length solution.

If majority agree, we'll field you as Presidential candidate.

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do-Goodger  
Last year

"do-Goodger's"

Thank you, I have been looking for a new username!

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Anonymous  
Last year

Yawn, bleeding heart central in here.

I prefer the other off topic thread about Violet Crumbles.

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LV  
Last year

@Luuuc

"To be told to rejoice on Christmas Day is reasonable and intelligible, if you understand the name, or even look at the word. To be told to rejoice on the twenty-fifth of December is like being told to rejoice at a quarter-past eleven on Thursday week"

- G.K. Chesterton

KET, how do the Indigenous continue to be poorly treated?

How can the Indigenous be "returned" to their former position of a couple of hundred years ago? Isn't it also true that many Indigenous are happy that the West settled our country, with the benefits they now enjoy from that? Aren't you claiming to speak for "them" when actually they are individuals and groups of people who have a great diversity of voices?

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do-Goodger  
Last year

"KET, how do the Indigenous continue to be poorly treated?"

Not sure if serious...

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The Rooster  
Last year

Even Ken Wyatt thinks there are far more important issues. He is both Abotiginal and sensible. Richard Di Natali - hmm.....

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Anonymous  
Last year

So what? You decide an Aboriginal is only sensible if he agrees with your position on something?

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KET  
Last year

LV:

Continual Poor Treatment:

2 parts from my experience as a defence lawyer:

Part 1 is the legal system - it fails to adjust for indigenous. The system doesn't understand how they culturally communicate, their relationships with one another etc. When you are trying to find fact and gauge responses, this failure to adjust produces a clear disadvantage in actually trying to establish fact, and it creates issues in having a genuine fair trial.

Unfortunately, many/most find themselves having to experience the system.

Part 2 is the environment in which they live. When you represent, you have to understand their lives and their environment. A lot of this is understood for plea mitigation purposes or to understand the narrative of events. Who are their closest relationships, who do they seek guidance from, what is their history, what is their personality, how do they talk, what is their career so on and so forth.

When you get immersed into this, you understand how they actually live, how the system affects them and how far it stems. It's not just an individual or a family, it's entire groups of people, entire towns.

That's just my experience - if you talk to health professionals they'll give their views on why; if you talk people in the education sector you'll find their reasons. The evidence of continual poor treatment goes broad and it goes deep and it doesn't take much scratching on the surface to find it.

If you're challenging continual poor treatment, you're challenging a broad consensus [and significant evidence in respect of health, crime, livability].

Returning to original position:

Perhaps bringing out the legal ideology required better explanation. The concept isn't referring to something like "you lived as a tribe and now you have electricity so how can you say you're worse off?".

Your logic is a little bit like: you took or damaged an object from someone worth $50. They are down that $50. But they have a weekly payment of $300 for employment so they don't deserve their $50 compensation.

Well, no. The person had the right to their object, and when they were wronged they gained the right to be compensated for that object.

So, in this scenario, consistent with how human rights breaches have been treated around the world - is that indigenous ought to have had rights that others had - those rights were taken, causing damage, therefore that should be compensated [therein the problem lies when you cause so much damage you can't possibly adequately compensate!].

Otherwise, if non-indigenous people were deprived of a right they would have redress; but an indigenous person who is deprived does not have redress available. That is a class difference and is not how rights work.

"You lived tribally, so if you aren't provided with rights you aren't available to redress" is not a valid argument.

So, your point doesn't counter what my argument was, it's a somewhat irrelevance to that exact point.

But let's say you bring that as an isolated new point: the only issue is, it's very well evidenced that many live in third world conditions. For those who don't, there are a myriad of issues.

It's very tough to argue that those conditions in itself are a) acceptable and b) a "western benefit". Of particular pertinence though - this is all based on a hypothetical that couldn't possibly be played out. How do we have any clue that if indigenous were not inflicted by invasion they would be worse off at this current day and age?

That's a hypothetical where an infinite amount of alternatives could have occurred - while the idea that indigenous had human rights taken away is not a hypothetical and the concept of redress for deprivation of rights is very well established throughout both Australia and globally.

Speaking on behalf:

I don't claim to be speaking on behalf of every individual around - but that doesn't affect the concept of common knowledge which is described as "truth of that fact is so notorious or well known, or so authoritatively attested, that it cannot reasonably be doubted."

If we're going to be challenging everything to "does the sun exist", it's going to be a very long and tedious conversation.

If someone decides to come out and dispute, I think the fair response would be: "have you been living under a rock?"

In any event, you've missed the main point here.

We have many people who are of the view that the problems are self-inflicted and we shouldn't bare the costs. Fact is, the sh!t we pulled caused the problems and whether anyone believes that or not, we will bare the costs.

That's not an opinion, it's going to happen regardless of opinion - costs are born by the country as a whole no matter what.

Maybe, we need to accept that and become smarter about dealing with it. It starts with acknowledging evidence and reality.

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KET  
Last year

Even those who criticise the politically correct or bleeding hearts it costs you too, and you can't escape it. You're in it with the rest of us. Tough shit.

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LoveBroker  
Last year

"the sh!t we pulled"

"the sh!t we pulled"

We have already acknowledged we landed with Terra Nullius as a wrong assumption. We have made big amounts of compensation already.

The best way to not go through this is to not pull the sh!t in the first place.

The deed is done....no one has a time-machine, its now about how we move on.

"That's not an opinion, it's going to happen regardless of opinion - costs are born by the country as a whole no matter what."

So they don't want the rest of society to celebrate yet want the rest of society to pay...yeah OK.

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Anonymous  
Last year

Scary that some people think moving into someone else's land 200 years ago is all that happened.

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KET  
Last year

Your responses were literally pre-empted, and promptly dealt with in my post. You've just stuck to a subborn merry-go round.

Here's perhaps an "easier read" for you:

Your comments: "We made big amounts of compensation"

It wouldn't be financially possible to actually compensate for damage caused, that ship has sailed. For the damage caused it's not really "big" so much as it's "ludicrously small".

In any event: To say "amounts paid, move on" or to, in the alternative, justify it as self inflicted is to not understand the consequences and ripple effect - and to not understand it to absurd proportions really.

Your comment "how about we move on"; "yet want the rest of society to pay"

Those two really go hand in hand. What anyone "wants" is completely irrelevant. "Moving on" really depends how much you accept this snapshot in time.

Regardless, what you can't change - irrespective on who wants who to pay and who wants to move on; is that either way we'll pay big time to lift the standards; or we won't pay it, and it'll become a huge cost for society through crime costs, health costs and opportunity-costs.

I'm not saying anyone wants to pay the costs, I am saying the costs exist whether you like it.

Would you rather the cost, or the cost? Ball is in your court.

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AngusH  
Last year

Wasn't it though? The English showed up, planted a flag in the ground, and we all lived happily ever after? And all the Aboriginals in Tasmania just decided they'd move to the mainland because they didn't like the cold.

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UseTaHoop  
Last year

The whole terra nullius idea got the English off to a really bad start in the colony of NSW, now Australia.

In very generalised terms, the English were about as good as it got as far as European colonial powers went. In other colonies, they developed the locals' capacities for future self-determination and government. In most English colonies, the indigenous people contributed (albeit in a subservient role) to the governance of the colony. As a result, decolonisation by England was generally a smoother process. They also exported what was arguably the best form of representative government, a stable economic system and a strong liberal-democratic tradition.

BUT in deciding that a particular land did not have people with a structure that they recognised as leadership, the English colonisers made the leap to thinking that "these natives aren’t as developed as us, so this land is therefore not owned by people we recognise". A lot of early colonial writing portrays Australia’s Aborigines as “noble savages”. There is genuine admiration for some qualities, but not acknowledgement of equality with Europeans. That wasn’t too terrible in kind, charitable minds (albeit that it resulted in paternalistic policies and practices) but poisonous in the minds of those who were more self-interested.

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Duke Fan  
Last year

Make it Melbourne Cup Day so we can skive off work and get pissed all day instead of just half the day. Screw Victorians

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Anonymous  
Last year

I'm sick of the daily Centrelink Day.

Reply #666718 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last year

ahhh...lawyers..don't you love em

its ALL about the money

so our guilt needs to continue for a few hundred more years and countless millions?

in lawyer speak wasn't Mabo based on white 'settlement' and not 'invasion' to facilitate land rights?

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Anonymous  
Last year

Correct. Got to keep churning out those legal fees.

Reply #666727 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last year

KET puts out a lengthy and detailed post, explains his position with his own evidence and experiences, and the last two anon knobs just dismiss it all because he's a lawyer. How moronic.

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Anonymous  
Last year

Love Vs it at the end of January as it signals the real end of summer holidays and its a great excuse for a bbq and you'll always get a few percent of the population will be upset about any date that’s just the way our always offended leftists PC culture is heading.

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Anonymous  
Last year

Thanks Andrew Bogut.

Reply #666742 | Report this post


LV  
Last year

Thanks KET for your detailed post.

Since I'm not a lawyer, and no one I know well is a lawyer, it's difficult for me to assess what you're saying on the rights issue and also about poor trestment under the law. Although it does sound as though you're requesting different law systems for different people, which you'll have a hard time convincing the public about.

I have an automatically high level of scepticism about claims of poor treatment and the like though, because of the undeniable victim industry that exists in this country that is misleading many people on this issue.

(I'm not suggesting that you personally have been misled, just explaining why I have a certain bias against those who claim victimhood. The propaganda machine exists, and it's powerful. I'm certain of that due to my own experiences).

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Anonymous  
Last year

You didn't explain why you had a bias. You just said "yeah but victimhood exists so KET can’t be right"

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KET  
Last year

I'm not asking for different systems - the legal system has a history of finding ways of accomodating this type of dilemma - for instance children, people of different races, people who are traumatised in particular ways etc. it’s a continued process to understand and improve. A common occurrence amongst indigenous through culture and children due the power difference is they often admit to doing things they didn’t do because when they are asked a question they will answer in the affirmative - they think that’s the answer the person asking the question wants.

For obvious reasons, that throws a major complication that the system needs to work through. It’s kind of akin to diplomacy trying to cater to all types and sizes.

I think skepticism needs to be done in a healthy way, for instance auditors are basically born skeptics - ie they won’t trust things without evidence. Where I heavily weigh against many so called skeptics is when there’s denial of evidence.

There’s a classic saying: You’re entitled to your own opinion, but not to your own evidence.

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LV  
Last year

I think a lot of the "evidence" is very much open to interpretation though.

For instance, many people look at various statistics showing aboriginal disadvantage and jump straight to the conclusion that they are being wronged in 2017.

Of course, this is all getting off the original point.

On Australia Day, I'll mourn with Indigenous Australians by taking a moment to remember the tragedies of the past. I'll pay my respects in that small way.

I'll also celebrate the positives that came about due to January 26, 1788 and I'll have a beer and a think about what makes Australia unique and great- freedom, diversity.

Neither one needs to minimise the other.

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Kingpodge  
Last year

KET,

thank you.

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Anonymous  
Last year

Having the date on January 26 is insensitive and excludes an important part of the population.

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Anonymous  
Last year

Australia Day is fine. Far more important issues out there.

Reply #666771 | Report this post


LV  
Last year

Both sides of the national conversation- Di Natale on one side and Abbott, Turnbull and Joyce, Latham on the other- are making an unjustified assumption- that if we have a public holiday on Australia Day, it must be a day of celebration. But why? What's the reasoning behind this assumption? Why can't we have a morning of mourning then an afternoon of celebration? So I don't really want to "keep the date as is" I want to keep the date but change how it's done. Important difference.

John Dickson made a good point too- changing the date means that Indigenous Australians are not structurally included in the new date- it will simply become a celebration of what's great about modern day Australia. "The beauty of sticking with 26 Jan (but incorporating lament in the beginning of the day) is that it will embed in our national day an annual acknowledgement of Indigenous people and the harm Europeans caused, and so it will remind/ educate generations of Australians each year to temper our celebrations with remembrance and sorrow".

He also suggested someone could be commissioned to write a poem in the spirit of Anzac Day's Ode of Remembrance ("they will not grow old..."). Like Les Murray.

Reply #666772 | Report this post


LV  
Last year

A minute's silence- another suggestion.

"A mature nation ought to be able to mourn and rejoice on the same day, recognising with shame what European presence did to the Indigenous peoples of this land and acknowledging with pride that we have also received and achieved great things in this land".

Well said John.

Reply #666774 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last year

"For instance, many people look at various statistics showing aboriginal disadvantage and jump straight to the conclusion that they are being wronged in 2017"

Well considering they've never been righted, what would you call it? Just because we stopped treating them poorly*, it doesnt mean we did enough to bring them up to a level playing field, or that people’s attitudes towards them has improved.

Its like owning an animal for ten years and start beating it every day of its life, until one day it attacks your neighbor and you say its not your fault because you haven’t beaten it for a week.

*compared to some atrocities of the past

Reply #666778 | Report this post


Thunder Jam  
Last year

Is this the ABC's forum now?
Take your politics elsewhere!

Reply #666783 | Report this post


Anon  
Last year

This thread is NOT for HOOPS.

Reply #666791 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last year

Why not? People that have an interest in sport also have an interest in political and social issues.

Reply #666792 | Report this post


Hogwash  
Last year

It is tagged OFF TOPIC.

Reply #666795 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last year

Yep this feels like the ABC forum with all the lefties on it.

Europeans improved the world. Proud to be European.

Reply #666796 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last year

Europeans didn't improve the world for Aboriginals, which is kind of the point of this topic.

Reply #666797 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last year

Yes they did, but most don't take advantage of it, probably because it's easier to be on the victim gravy train.

Reply #666798 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last year

Sorry, I forgot genocide was an overall improvement to one's culture.

Reply #666799 | Report this post


anon  
Last year

Actually alot of different cultures improved the world considering Europeans took alot of what they learned from the Eastern world ie: Muslim cultures

Reply #666801 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last year

"hey is it OK if we wipe out your entire culture for the next couple of hundred years? We'll give you free cars and centrelink payments when we're done." - Europeans, apparently.

Reply #666803 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last year

Please do not lump Europeans together. The British were the ones who took over and killed the natives.

Reply #666804 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last year

Having studied both English and European history I always find it interesting how in Australia settlement is treated as a high crime and how so much negative stigma attached.
The story of settlement in Australia is no different to the English story (Celts, Romans, Saxons, Vikings, Norman's and French plus world wars). In addition Europe as a whole is really a store of "invasion" (if you want an invasion day). Europe has been invaded and re-invaded again and again with most of Europe now being a mix of people. From the Gauls (Germany), Xia/Shang/Qin/Han’s Dynasty’s (China), Persia, Aksum, Macedonia, Mongola. I have left out the Egypy, Romains, Russian’s, Arabs (7th Century), Israelites.
I am not saying that what has happened is OK however what I am saying is that what has happened is history and must be view through the eyes of history and seen that way.

Reply #666813 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last year

Well said.

Reply #666814 | Report this post


KET  
Last year

#666813

We're talking 1788 not 788AD

Reply #666820 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last year

So?

Reply #666823 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last year

KET - I think you are forgetting your history;

Ottoman Empire - as late as 16-17-18 century
China - Well not sure when there stopped

As well as a number of smaller invasions by the Swiss, Polish and the good old Pope all between 16th and 17th century

Plus my fav - Siam

Reply #666826 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last year

As a first generation Australian and proudly Maori I've always had an affinity and sense of connection with Indigenous Australians. We share a history which was interrupted and eroded by colonists, an identity that is quickly dismissed by white people, and cultural interests which are largely ignored.

Whilst I wasn’t there, my parents, or even grandparents, the things that happened all those years ago have had intergenerational consequences still felt today, much like Indigenous Australians still suffer from today.

Just like I do not celebrate the Tiriti O Waitangi / Treaty of Waitangi, I also do not celebrate Australia Day for the reason that it fails to acknowledge the true and original Australians" and their tens of thousands of years of history, and is used by patriots as an excuse to tell non-white christians to "eff of we’re full”.

Move the date. Redefine the reason for event. Celebrate Indigenous Australians and be remind yourself of whose land you are really on.

Reply #666828 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last year

#666828 continued

And to attempt to equate the displacement of indigenous peoples from their lands and continued systemic oppression to "invasion" of empires across Europe is ridiculous and shows you have never experienced what it is Indigenous people experience today.

Reply #666831 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last year

Empires invaded. Ridiculous to just cast aside the people who suffered through them. Get a grip.

Reply #666840 | Report this post


Jack Toft  
Last year

Well, it sound like IF the date is to be changed, the best date would be May 8 (Mate Day) and if the date remains, then the focus needs to be adjusted to provide an opportunity to acknowledge, reconcile and move forward.

Some great input from a lot a posters (esp KET) and 666828, your viewpoint is valuable.

Personally, I think a National Day is a good thing and an opportunity to unify, more than divide. We all have two ears and one mouth, and that's probably the ratio in which they should work. I don't mind keeping the date as providing the focus is right.

Reply #666851 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last year

I'm pro-change-the-date but I think LV is doing a good job of making the argument for changing the approach to the day rather than the date itself.

Failure to understand that indigenous people in modern Australia face enormous institutional disadvantage is inexcusable. If you don't want to understand why and how, that's up to you. But you can't write off detailed explanations of the ways in which it exists, such as KET's, with the absurdly simplistic summation that "Europeans improved the world."

Much like many of the other 'privilege' issues that are being more heavily discussed at the moment (SSM, #metoo, #blacklivesmatter), there are a lot of people who seem to think that because they're not offended by the status quo, the minority group who are should 'get over it.' And the counter-argument that these people would be offended by a change completely fails to acknowledge the relative significance of the insult to each party. I find it interesting that despite the success of Trump, One Nation, and whatever Bernardi is calling himself these days, there has actually been significant advancement of left-wing causes while the right-wing has held power. I don't know what that means more broadly, but I do think it's undermining the 'silent majority' argument that a lot of alt-right politicians have trotted out over the last few years, and that can only be a good thing.

Reply #666852 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last year

^^^^ more leftist spew above

Reply #666853 | Report this post


skull  
Last year

I am so bored with this topic...with that I don't mean disrespect to any other humans,
(key word 'humans' black,white or yellow)ever since the beginning...all around the world....still, human Vs human.

Cut out your patch, break the cycle, invest in yourself...others will follow your lead...black, white or yellow...

Reply #666871 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last year

Yes of course skull, we're all equals ever since that day that white people decided that brown people were equal (despite 200 years of being treated like shit prior to us deciding they were equals). Why dont they just start to act equal???

Reply #666875 | Report this post


Curtley  
Last year

This conversation makes me love the people in it more than I thought possible.

Reply #666877 | Report this post


cat  
Last year

I can't believe the amount of support for a date change on this thread..

it would be of interest to know how many 'individual' anon's have shown support

I'm fairly certain the vast majority are from one source making multiple anon posts

Isaac can confirm?

Reply #666924 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last year

Just change it to march 8th.

For those clueless people on here listen to briggs song January 26th

Reply #666925 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last year

"Isaac can confirm?"

Isaac is too busy turning a microwave into a listening device so that he can uncover the Podesta's connection to Pizzagate!

Reply #666926 | Report this post


koberulz  
Last year

I can't believe the amount of support for a date change on this thread..

it would be of interest to know how many 'individual' anon's have shown support
Because the existence of more than a couple of people with a different opinion to you is obviously such an absurd notion.

Reply #666930 | Report this post


cat  
Last year

far from it.don't mind healthy debate

.why are you alarmed by the question?

wouldn't't be the first time on Hoops one person with an axe to grind/viewpoint has made multiple posts to hammer a point

Reply #666942 | Report this post


Isaac  
Last year

There are anons for and against. None appear to be trying to present themselves as separate individuals.

If you're surprised that people are for a change of date, why wouldn't you be surprised at support for not budging? For some significant period, there wasn't an Australia Day as we know it. I'd say that for most people, the association with Australia Day as they know it is a time of year and what they do with the day more than anything specific. Or a feel that moving is "losing" to others, or "letting them win".

I like May 8 (hadn't heard it before; it's quite funny) but think a rough mark of "Summer holidays are other, now get working" is handy. But not so much that I care a great deal about it. Making a change matters more to others and I'm happy to defer when it's a seriously emotive issue for them. I'm more surprised that it's an emotional issue for others.

I resist any "past is the past" argument because it's something I suspect can't be understood from a position of majority.

There have been some great comments for and against.

Reply #666946 | Report this post


IdRatherBeLurking  
Last year

How far would you take this push?

Should the 36ers name be changed as its named after the year South Australia became a British province.

Reply #667623 | Report this post


Luuuc  
Last year

I think the Wildcats should change their name to the 26ers so that the original people of this country can hate them as much as white basketball fans do.

Reply #667627 | Report this post


Perth Wilburs  
Last year

Change it to May 8, for Mate Day. Everyone is a mate no matter if your black, white, yellow, red, green, purple or orange.

Change the flag to a nice green, blue and yellow design we all can aspire to (not incorporating the aboriginal flag at all as that is just highlighting one group of people).

Reply #669238 | Report this post


KET  
Last year

Being against 1836 would be like being against Jan 1st 1901 not January 26th 1788

Reply #669254 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last year

Changing the date or name isn't going g to alter history, it’s also not helpful to those born on that day especially the 1988 crew who all got special commemorative birth certificates lol

Perhaps the indigenous nation would like to find a day to celebrate when they first arrived on these shores as they too travelled here from other lands.

Australia Day is a celebration of what this country has become, and it’s achieved that through blood sweat and tears of many nationalities, and continues to do so today.

You cannot change history, you can only ensure it is not repeated.

Those complaining , I bet they don’t complain about the day off or the double time and a half they get paid to work it, unless of course your one who dies not work and lives off the benefits this country provides.

Reply #669302 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last year

Nice dog whistle to finish off there.

Reply #669317 | Report this post


Isaac  
Last year

Changing the date or name isn't going g to alter history, it's also not helpful to those born on that day especially the 1988 crew who all got special commemorative birth certificates lol
In one sentence you manage to claim that nothing is going to alter history, but that it might impact people born on that day or who received certificates... So does it change nothing or change something?
Australia Day is a celebration of what this country has become, and it’s achieved that through blood sweat and tears of many nationalities, and continues to do so today.
That doesn't change with a change of date...
Those complaining , I bet they don’t complain about the day off or the double time and a half they get paid to work it, unless of course your one who dies not work and lives off the benefits this country provides.
Not sure that's relevant?

Let's say the vast majority of voices on the "change" side are not actually indigenous. I don't get the angle of "bet they don't complain about the day off" to people arguing for an underrepresented minority, not themselves? I don't personally gain from a change of date but I don't lose out either. If the holiday moves, then the situation doesn't change in terms of employment or benefits, surely?

Makes sense to me reaching out to aggrieved people as there are a number of social advantages too from an inclusive community.

Reply #669335 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last year

"Not sure that's relevant?"

What he is alluding to is Aboriginals probably claim more benefits (unemployment etc) than others so they shouldn't complain.

Reply #669337 | Report this post


Jack Toft  
Last year

"What he is alluding to is Aboriginals probably claim more benefits (unemployment etc) than others so they shouldn't complain."

I know people might find this hard, but I don't actually mind if Aboriginals get a bit more government benefit than "others" Although 2% of the population, a significant portion of that population lives in rural and remote areas and in poorer urban areas. Aboriginal culture is more complex than some people understand.

Generally life expectancy and other health related markers are significantly lower than the rest of the population. Drug and alcohol issues as well as domestic abuse levels are higher than other groups. Spending money to rectify those issues is not money wasted. However, some money is wasted. For example, in 1989 an (Aboriginal) employee of mine who was a very good worker decided to leave because the government gave him $30,000 to set up a small business. "I'm becoming a butcher" "...do you have any butchering experience Shane?" "no" Six months later he came back to work.

As a society, I think we want to ensure the gap between the have and the have-nots is not too large.

On a personal note, I do know one of my direct ancestors did kill an Aboriginal with a pitchfork in 1830 when a group of Aboriginals ransacked his farm and speared him 3 times. In 1912 one of my great great grandfathers was actually murdered (speared) by Aboriginals on his farm as well, so mistreatment did go both ways, despite what those who paint the political picture want to tell us.

Reply #669342 | Report this post


Reality  
Last year

Why should they get more funding and we think thats ok?

The vast majority of people alive today didn't do anything to have to foot the bill because of something that happened 3 or 4 (and more) generations ago when lets face it a very large % of the population wheren't even calling Australia home.

Its also a cop out to blame all white people as over 95% of the first groups of settlers where convicts and hence slave labour with no choice in the matter of coming here so really perhaps they should be asking the crown for something as well?



Reply #669347 | Report this post


Isaac  
Last year

The massacres perpetrated were significantly weighted towards the Aboriginal population. I don't know if decent people have made attempts to ignore that or suggest that settlers weren't also killed. I assume it'd be fairly commonly understood. You can learn a bit more about efforts to catalogue it here.

What he is alluding to is Aboriginals probably claim more benefits (unemployment etc) than others so they shouldn't complain.
Not surprised that they do, given the generations of upheaval they've faced. I think the quickest solution to that (and for anyone really) is somewhat orthogonal rather than direct critique. I think we perpetuate many issues (immigrants being another*) with our instinctive approaches.

There's a Radiolab podcast called Mau Mau which talks about the British in Kenya decades ago. It finishes with a really stark note that goes a very small way towards helping you understand what it must feel like to go from having some sort of place, identity and existence to losing what you had hoped to pass on to your children and their children. Must've been devastating.

* An example of this is talking of immigrants clumping in ghettos, but knowing that there are people abusing, glaring, raising fears and the like. The Sudanese gangs are the Asian triads decades before, or the Europeans before that. I think of Australian culture as a shifting thing and unfortunately a lot of friction comes from how our identification/understanding lags the reality. Takes generational change (on both sides) to solve these things the way we act now.

Reply #669348 | Report this post


Isaac  
Last year

Reality, who's blaming all white people? Seems like a strawman argument.

It surprises me that fellow white people think of changing this as a loss. If I don't care much about the date, but others really, really do, isn't the net result of that implying that a move could ultimately help? I don't lose out if I get a public holiday on January x rather than January 26.

Reply #669349 | Report this post


Bear  
Last year

This is a valid topic, generally speaking Australians are very patriotic, some a little over the top but we do love to acknowledge ourselves and each other everywhere, in sport or anything really.

However, when it comes to Australia Day (or what it probably should be called - Discovery Day or Settlement Day - 'Invasion Day' may be too divisive for us right now), I absolutely agree with some changes.

If we must have that date (Jan 26th) remembered, yes, remember it with some form of silence and recognition of the plight of our indigenous inhabitants who have still not recovered from being treated so poorly. Then perhaps celebrate a new beginning, but do it with some respect and humanity.

I for one would also like Federation Day to be recognised as the real Australia Day, however once again looking into the future, WHEN we finally break our ties with the monarchy and declare ourselves free of the royal ties, that day would be worth celebrating, whenever it comes.

For those who think it was wonderful that the English came here in 1788, remember that they were an empire and it was their agenda to spread their culture and religion all over the globe, for power, control and wealth that initiated the discovery in the first place. Not to mention finding a place for convicts to be out of sight, tortured and punished.

I am not for one second saying we don't have a great standard of living here today and I acknowledge Terra Australis (The South Land) would have been discovered (in fact was) and would have been settled by another empire eventually regardless.

What I am saying is that we need to acknowledge that the Aboriginals of today are still very much impacted by the addictions, crimes and oppression forced onto them since English settlement and empirical rule.

For what it's worth, KET you have been on the money and if we cannot learn from history, if we cannot acknowledge our history and if we are unable to be honest about it, we should not rejoice!

Reply #669351 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last year

"Why should they get more funding and we think thats ok?"

Because they are at a complete disadvantage in multiple ways because of things done to them in the past. I don't think that throwing money at a problem is always going to solve it but if you're suggesting that they are on an even playing field, you're wrong.

Reply #669352 | Report this post


Reality  
Last year

Aboriginals have all the same rights under law as every other Aussie so i'm not sure how far we should look back as to why a group of peoples are struggling today was my point.

If we blames others for our problems we'll never grow and accept our own failures thus creating a cycle

Reply #669366 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last year

The problems caused by treating a group of people like shit for centuries don't suddenly resolve themselves the moment you decide to start playing nice.

They might have the same rights under law, but they are not and never have been on an level playing field.

Reply #669372 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last year

really?

treating them like shit for centuries?

the millions of dollars that have been thrown needlessly as 'guilt' money for decades is astonishing.

Aboriginals are given many advantages in this day and age financially and in resources to address inequities.

Certainly more could be done.

I understand this will never erase the past.

NOTHING WILL.

But the victim mentality needs to stop. Activists and bleeding hearts need not speak on behalf of all aboriginals.Can the MAJORITY of Aboriginals be canvassed on their thoughts/priorities/needs?



Reply #669378 | Report this post


Luuuc  
Last year

Can the MAJORITY of Aboriginals be canvassed on their thoughts/priorities/needs?

That part I wholeheartedly agree with.
Before we get too carried away telling each other what they want, we could maybe ... ask them?

Having said that I'm still struggling to understand why some people are so vehemently opposed to the idea of the date maybe changing in the future, as if it's untouchable for some reason and some kind of failure if we hypothetically change something for the better.

Reply #669385 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last year

"really?

treating them like shit for centuries?

the millions of dollars that have been thrown needlessly as 'guilt' money for decades is astonishing."

If you'd bother to read, you'd see I addressed your predictable comment about the money already. The problems did not go away just because we threw money at them.

Reply #669394 | Report this post


Isaac  
Last year

If we blames others for our problems we'll never grow and accept our own failures thus creating a cycle
I agree with this and I think it's absolutely something that should be encouraged/motivated at every step, but I think if you only hold to that as a general rule for a broader society, you'll continually fall short of an ideal future. And that goes for first people overrun by settlers and for a social underclass that doesn't get off their arse or whoever else. We're clever animals and often not much more - we're lazy, we get addicted, we make mistakes - I'd say that describes every human to some degree (it describes me - I just came home, sat in front of a screen, ate corn chips, and made the questionable decision to debate something online). It adds a load of noise to "In theory, if everyone took some responsibility..."

Two loose examples of where I think "In theory..." fails:

Homelessness. It costs the community money in terms of welfare, policing and so on. There was a trial in Utah where they discovered that the cheapest "solution" was actually to give homeless people a house. It was cheaper than police and medical support, shelters, social workers, etc. Now, one quick reaction to that is "Why should they get a free house? Why can't I have a free house?" Another is that this was the cheapest and most effective solution to a problem. It wouldn't be the only part of a strategy, but it might be the core of one. However, you can imagine the social resistance. I imagine most would take the position that "They should just get a job" and then live with people falling through the cracks forever around them. You can see what it looks like in San Francisco.

Contraception and abstinence. Obviously if you can convince all youths and adults not planning to conceive to abstain, you don't need contraception. But as I understand it, there have been countless studies showing that sex education involving contraception rather than purely advocating abstinence is more effective. Provide a broader education, provide contraception (pill, condoms, whatever) for free, and I imagine you'll reap the rewards (lower crime, etc) later. But I'd bet anyone who reads much of the internet would've seen arguments like "Why should I pay so that little tramp can get laid?!"

I wonder if we'll ever see a country experiment with making decisions through evidence-based AI rather than politicians exploiting our instincts?

Reply #669395 | Report this post


Duke Fan  
Last year

From the Facebook page of Jacinta Nampijinpa Price. It's long, a bit harrowing in parts, but very worth the read.

I want to share this letter sent to me by a woman I regard as a sister. She is a true survivor and the kind of Aboriginal woman our leaders need to listen to, especially Greens Leader Di Natale!! Hear her words and please share her story! -

I've spent an hour trying to figure out how to start this letter and there’s no easy or good way to start it, I can’t pretty it up and I can’t be sensitive because I’m just so angry.
Over the last few days we have seen The Greens party cause a huge division between us, Indigenous pitted against Indigenous, Black against whites in what I can say is some of the most vile and racist hate speech I’ve ever seen, those defending the Greens have played right into their hands like the puppets you are, you think you’re smart but you’re not. Have you ever read the story of The Pied piper? The Greens are the piper and you’re the rats.

I see so much screaming and crying over the date, the 26th of January, the national day of Australia, Australia Day but not the correct date of the first fleet arriving, more fool you. So foolish to believe that the people crying for changing the date actually care about you? They don’t care about you! They care about division, widening the gap not closing it, a fool is easily parted from his family.

Not once! Not one time have I seen The Greens or labor speak out, not once have I seen you Indigenous cohorts speak out! Not once! You have never spoken out about stopping the violence, stopping the alcoholism, stopping the child abuse and sexual assault, no, you just want to talk about how "White man" has some how oppressed you. Oppressed you? Excuse you! Most of you leading the pack are well educated, had opportunities some of us only dare dreamed about, you manipulate the mobs, especially the ones less educated or fortunate for your own selfish white hating reasons! Shame on you! Shame shame shame!

I grew up in a violent alcohol fuelled family filled with some of the most abhorrent acts committed upon my mother, upon myself. My childhood wasn’t living, it was surviving from one day to the next. I don’t remember a great Christmas, a birthday that didn’t turn violent a night where I didn’t hide under my blankets hoping that he wouldn’t come into my room. That leads me to ask where were you?

When I was 6 years old, yes SIX, I had my first nervous breakdown, I couldn’t take it anymore and my mind and body gave up, my soul withered and I was but a shell of my former self, but where were you? Were you speaking up for me? Were you there to stop the real oppression the real danger to my life? A lot of you were children yourself but where were the older ones? The mothers, fathers, aunts and uncles? The politicians? The outstretched hand? No you weren’t there!
Where were you when I watched my mother get raped and bashed until you couldn’t recognise who she was? Where were you when he held us all hostage and tried to cut our throats? Where were you when I faced an onslaught of sexual abuse? Where were you when he chased us down and tried bashing my mothers head in with a bullroarer? Where were you when almost every night in my house something violent happened? Where were you when he’d sneak into my room like a thief in the night to steal my childhood? Where were you the first time I tried to kill myself aged 9? There’s so much more and it would take me a week to write it down, but where were you? You weren’t there and you still aren’t there! Luckily for me my grandmother was there, eventually my mother threw me away when I was sexually assaulted yet once again, this time by an “uncle” there was more than one offender that hurt me, I lost count, now that’s sad. Can you change all the dates I was hurt?

You cry and you scream about changing the date while there are children like me, little boys and girls living the same life I did as a child, living in constant fear of violence and sexual abuse. No, white man didn’t oppress me, white man didn’t commit those repulsive abhorrent acts, white man failed me in the way that he failed to take me and my brother away from my mother. But we mustn’t talk about the real issues effecting the indigenous community to this day! To this very day! Is it racist to speak out? NO! You professional victims cry about a date while real victims suffer horrors only seen in nightmares or in a movie, no, that’s not accurate, the greatest horror writer on the planet would cringe if he heard my story, the story of children still suffering today.

You say it’s “racist” to even speak of these issues, it’s not racism, it’s realism. I have no time for you and your virtue signalling change the date crap. Your voice is only loud when you want to play the victim. My grandmother an indigenous elder tried so hard to take me off my mother when I was a baby, but no, the authorities wouldn’t do that as it would be racist so they left me to suffer but I didn’t let that stop me, I didn’t let the abuse and poverty get in my way. Yes I did become an alcoholic when I was 13 it was easy to deal with the pain, then one day I woke up, I was 16 I decided I was not going to let the past destroy my future, I swore to myself I would never turn out like my mother, but I did, for 3 brutal years I did, for 3 brutal years I’d send my babies away out of danger so it was only me, was it racism that drove the police and DOCS to threaten to take my babies if I didn’t leave? Was it racism that saw them drag him away so the kids and I could pack and flee? No, that was humanity, that was addressing the issue, racism didn’t play a part, they didn’t see colour, they seen violence and terror the only difference is there was no grog, no drugs, he did it because he enjoyed it.

So while you’re sitting there with your privilege screaming about changing the date, I’ll be sitting here with no privilege except for what I’ve given to myself and I’ll be speaking out about the real issues and fighting for justice for myself and for every other child that is a mirror of me. Personally I’ll keep the date, some of the good memories I have is from that date, you see I spent most Australia Days with my nan, she would have BBQ’s where family and friends would get togeather and play cricket and laugh, us kids would play and play, I never wanted those days to end. My nan always taught me that it was about unity not division, she taught me not to hate, she told me stories of old passed down and from her own memories, she taught me not to hate the people of today for the sins of yesterday, my nan was all about love and without her I wouldn’t be the strong proud woman I am today. On Australia Day, celebrate don’t hate.

That’s all I have to say, I’m getting too upset, the memories of the past never fade to a living victim, a real victim, but we go on, stronger louder and prouder.

Reply #669407 | Report this post


Reality  
Last year

Its certainly a tough subjected that touches on many peoples personal experiences and feelings thus its so emotive and gets a massive response and not just in respect of changing the date but the advantages and help given to aboriginal people.

There is alot of resentment already in the working classes as some of the benefits aborignal people get and regardless of our personal thought changing the date will attract viewers and eyeballs so i expect the media and both side of the political spectrum will push this subject toward there own narrative.

Personally I like the date but also don't mind if we change it but i'm worried it will create a precedence and next thing will be taking down statues of Cook etc which becomes a slippery slop to much larger divisions and next thing you'll get a aussie Trump pop up.

Unfortunately we can never make everyone happy and thus moving the date would upset more people than it would make happy (hence both major political parties won't touch it as they've done the polling!)







Reply #669505 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last year

Trump wasn't created because statues started coming down. His supporters were always there and have always thought the way they do. He just gave them a voice and normalised their behaviour.

Reply #669508 | Report this post


Reality  
Last year

when you look at the numbers Trump has a huge amount of support which probably says alot of people think a certain way.

Pushing peoples opinions aside and dismissing them like a number of the change the date people are doesn't end well as drives a bigger wedge between people thus creates trump

Reply #669516 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last year

So you're saying unless the ignorant racists get their voices heard (which we all know from history how well that will work) then the risk is they will get even more ignorant and racist, only this time they'll go on the attack more and put a vile racist in as president...

Reply #669517 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last year

nothing like a Leftie snowflake becoming abusive..if you don't agree with them the name calling and labelling comes to the fore...vile racist, misogynist.

it just becomes tiresome, predictable and boring

Reply #669524 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last year

So you don't think Trump is vile or a racist?

Reply #669525 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last year

Nothing like an alt-right cuck defending a guy who raped his wife and sexualises his own daughter. No, that isn't vile at all!

Reply #669526 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last year

wow...seems no one can have a differing opinion from you at all

in actual fact I don't think Trump is vile or racist, despite you believing everyone has to think that

stock market up, unemployment down, blue collar workers of America getting back to work

I know you just love Obama, the champion of great oracle delivery, who achieved squat in his term in office

despite Trump being elected you just can't seem to deal with that fact or accept it. So throw the name-calling accusations at Trump as your kind do when they don't get their way.

Reply #669529 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last year

You don't think Trump is vile or racist because of some cherry-picked and/or fabricated economic statistics?

See, this is why we jump straight to labels, because trying to get the point across to morons like you is a complete waste of time.

Reply #669531 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last year

"unemployment down"

"Obama...achieved squat in his term in office'

This is just too funny. Maybe open your eyes to something other than Fox and Friends.

Reply #669533 | Report this post


Reality  
Last year

Trump wasn't a racist until he got into office apparently so think its a bit of a pushed agenda suddenly calling him that now.

He is certainly not a feminist and as a man with power and money has certainly made sure he upgrades the wife on a semi regular basis but most rich dudes seem to be able to afford to do this.

Not sure he was ever found guilty of rape etc so perhaps chill on those wild accusations as if any of that stuff had happen it certainly would have been out now and he would have been impeached because there is a massive queue on both side of politics trying to get him out of office.


Reply #669536 | Report this post


Reality  
Last year

You mentioned ignorant and racist but perhaps it isn't either if the vast majority of people have a certain view then that's the countries real point of view and because it isn't aligned to your view doesn't make it racist or ignorant as they might think your point of view is ignorant from there daily reality and life.

Reply #669539 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last year

"Trump wasn't a racist until he got into office apparently"

You're not serious, are you?

"Not sure he was ever found guilty of rape etc so perhaps chill on those wild accusations as if any of that stuff had happen it certainly would have been out now"

Um his wife said it. Its been on the record since 1991.

Reply #669540 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last year

Just because a lot of people think something, it doesn't suddenly make it factually correct or not racist. If 60% of people think that most criminals are Mexican, but evidence shows that is not the case, do you think those 60% suddenly become right because there are more of them?

Reply #669541 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last year

The solution is keep January 26 as a public holiday. I'm sure there's another queen's birthday we can add.

Add a new "Australia Day" date that satisfies Aboriginals but make sure that is also a public holiday.

Then add another date as a public holiday, because who doesn't love public holidays?!

As long as these new dates aren't on a stupid date like January 1 or 2. or December 27 or around Easter, I don't see what the big deal is.

Reply #669544 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last year

Was he charged and convicted of rape? Nope!

We live in a democracy whereby the majority rules, but if 60% of people hold a certain view perhaps your the one who has to look at your position more closely?

A bit of inwards reflection on your position will provide more answers than name calling those you don't agree with you! Good chance your wrong but like all SJW in the twitter world you think your correct.

Reply #669554 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last year

I think I'm correct because I find stuff out, not just base things on how I feel, or repeat lies that Trump has said because it sounds good. I bet you think he became a self-made billionaire after a mere million dollar loan from his father.

Reply #669555 | Report this post


koberulz  
Last year

Trump wasn't a racist until he got into office apparently so think its a bit of a pushed agenda suddenly calling him that now.
He's been racist way longer than that.

Reply #669557 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last year

"but if 60% of people hold a certain view perhaps your the one who has to look at your position more closely?"

That answer completely ignores the question I asked. Well done Donald!

Reply #669558 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last year

So I guess then we should ignore the numbers if it doesn't suit your narrative?

Like aborigines are more likely to commit crimes and end up in prison? That’s not oppression just facts that they break the law more. So does that statement make me racist cause it’s facts?

Reply #669559 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last year

You are really struggling to follow the simplest of conversations here.

Reply #669561 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last year

'I think I'm correct because I find stuff out'

congratulations..need there be any more proof of the self entitled Left way of thinking?

The sheer arrogance and dismissive attitude to any differing point of view is staggering.

It's merely your opinion, that's all.

You preach tolerance yet in the very next breath abuse, label and belittle.

Reply #669570 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last year

I'm dismissive because you and others are talking absolute shit. I know that you are talking shit because I’ve bothered to find out what is true and what isn’t eg unemployment down under Trump while Obama did nothing, Trump was never called a racist until he got in to office etc.

If you can’t handle someone knowing more about something than you, that’s unlucky. I would have thought you’d have been used it by now.

Reply #669572 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last year

One last thing...you and the other alt-right incels are the ones being dismissive because every time someone raising a point, you immediately refute it with "SJW snowflake." Can you at least try and be original, Tomi Lahren?

Reply #669573 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last year

I find it funny that people are so angry about Trump yet forget how useless Obama was. The guy literally acheived nothing but people lauded him being President due to his skin tone. Lefties are so delusional.

Reply #669574 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last year

Oh dear.

Reply #669575 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last year

Loved the GWB skit on SNL this past weekend. Summed it up nicely. He was thought of as a dumb and evil president yet he suddenly looks great compared to the latest guy. It's one thing to be ineffective, it's another thing to turn the rest of the world and your own country against you in the process because you're not only stupid but also stubborn, short-tempered, dodgy, and offensive.

Reply #669576 | Report this post


Anonomous  
Last year

It's true that this country has not been kind to its original inhabitants.
However, it would be/ would have been a lot worse for them had an Asian country colonised IMO.

Reply #669580 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last year

Yes but it's trendy in the media that the white devil is the worst and no one else can be racist.

Modern day slavery still exists in 2017 a primce example being in as Mauritania (Arabs have negro slaves) yet the mainstream media never discuss it. Hypocrites.

Reply #669583 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last year

2018 I should say. Time flies!

Reply #669584 | Report this post


Reality  
Last year

Trump has certainly made the USA a place to do business with his tax cuts which are pretty good for business and those working in the businesses.

If your a talented and hard worker you'll be getting pay rises or bonuses as the job market is very very strong at the moment so the worth of the indivdual is higher than it has been for a while.

Now if they can get the illegal workers thing under control and convert that black market into taxes and jobs for citizens the economy will get another huge kick along.

Regardless of trumps vulgar tweets like all countries if the economy is going well that's the only thing people really care about so hence he'll get re-elected.

People can call him whatever but if you can eat and are getting payrises/tax breaks your happy!

Reply #669591 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last year

"Trump has certainly made the USA a place to do business with his tax cuts which are pretty good for business and those working in the businesses.

If your a talented and hard worker you'll be getting pay rises or bonuses as the job market is very very strong at the moment so the worth of the indivdual is higher than it has been for a while."

That is simply untrue. FFS do something other than read a headline.

"if the economy is going well that's the only thing people really care about so hence he'll get re-elected."

Some guy above you said that Obama did literally nothing while in office so it turns out people don't really care about that so much.

Reply #669596 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last year

Trump has been killing unemployment ever since the end of the USA subprime mortgage crisis.

Reply #669601 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last year

Obama did literally nothing!!! /s

Reply #669603 | Report this post


Reality  
Last year

Obama oversaw a time of little growth etc but not into bagging the last guy because of the poor job he did.

The numbers don;t lie Trump is killing it in terms of economy its impossible to deny and the tax cuts are a huge boon for business and those working in them its undeniable.

I know my business is now looking to potentially move some manufacturing operations there due to the excellent tax environment when combined with the remove of burdensome regulation thats being removed particularly in states like Texas and Indiana as opposed to us just exporting our product to them.



Reply #669606 | Report this post


Isaac  
Last year

Modern day slavery still exists in 2017 a primce example being in as Mauritania (Arabs have negro slaves) yet the mainstream media never discuss it. Hypocrites.
There are often articles about captured workers in the Middle East (from Asia and the sub-continent). Western media write about things which fire up their readers, and this doesn't. Dozens of non-white people die abroad in a bombing or earthquake, and it's overwhelmed by the news of one white kid going missing closer to home.

You don't need to look up the chain to the media. This thread is evidence: non-white antagonists angling for a date change inflames discussion in a predominantly white Western country. Would this discussion be anywhere near as heated if it was a fairly neutral white dude campaigning to replacing the Queen's Birthday holiday with something fairly plain? People would fire up if it were infidels trying to change a religious tradition. Or "the other side" of politics. It's tribalism in each case.

Reply #669607 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last year

"The numbers don;t lie Trump is killing it in terms of economy"

No, he has inherited the good work done from the previous government. The trends don't lie.

In fact, Trump has been speaking shit about the jobs he has "created" in his first 12 months. He is claiming credit for everything, even when it has absolutely nothing to do with him.

Reply #669608 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last year

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/30/us/politics/fact-check-trump-ahead-state-union-.html?smid=tw-nytimes&smtyp=cur

Reply #669609 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last year

"If your a talented and hard worker you'll be getting pay rises or bonuses "

Less than 3 percent of America's full time employees have received a one-time bonus of $1000, that may or may not even be due to the tax cut.

Reply #669618 | Report this post


LoveBroker  
Last year

It was never going to end with changing the Australia Day date.

It is basically what I had thought, they want to watch the world burn.

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/abolish-australia-says-indigenous-group-behind-invasion-day-rally-20180130-p4yz1z.html

Here is the offensive post in question....extract below (language censored).

https://www.facebook.com/WARcollective/?hc_ref=ARR4yKEyoJwb3PEB8ARpiWbum7FyUpCVvdUPHscWWboTm1NrfI9_2U7Ex7o6S_TxPH8&fref=nf

"In response to the attacks on WAR members and the call to burn Australia to the ground at the Naarm Abolish Australia Day Rally, we would like to issue the following statement:

F$%k Australia.
F$%k your land theft, your child stealing and your state sanctioned murders.
F$%k your governments, your military and your police.
F$%k your concentration camps dressed up as correctional facilities and immigration detention centres.
F$%k your economy, your greed and your cult of the almighty dollar.
F$%k your poisoning of water, your wholesale destruction of land and your pollution of our atmosphere.
F$%k your language forced upon us and violently attempting to replace our very own.
F$%k your white supremacy, your patriarchy and your capitalism.
F$%k your flag, your anthem and your precious national day.
WAR will not rest until we burn this entire rotten settler colony called Australia, illegally and violently imposed on stolen Aboriginal land at the expense of the blood of countless thousands, to the F$%king ground, until every corrupt and illegal institution of white supremacist, patriarchal, capitalist settler colonial power forced upon us is no more. We will not rest until we build a society that cares for and honours the Earth, our mother, that respects the interconnectedness of all beings, that is founded on our sovereignty and responsibility to this country and the people who live on it, and that offers a place of safety and prosperity for our people and for all those oppressed and excluded by the current systems of power - refugees, people of colour, LGBTQIA people, poor people, disabled people.
Abolish Australia, not just Australia Day"

Reply #669627 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last year

"It is basically what I had thought, they want to watch the world burn."

Who is they?

Reply #669630 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last year

"Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul. "

Reply #669635 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last year

2017 was the weakest year of job creation in the US since 2010. Thanks Trump!

Reply #669637 | Report this post


Camel 31  
Last year

The Project piece where whites reduced aboriginal population by 90 percent was sad to see...

Reply #669642 | Report this post


Isaac  
Last year

It is basically what I had thought, they want to watch the world burn.
LoveBroker - you're talking about a minority of a minority rather than a broader community. It's the same when sports fans say "36ers fans wanted to sack x last week, and now they love him!!!11!" - it's almost always different subsets of a group with contrasting opinions. There'd be similar elements on either side of any issue.

Anarchists, preppers, etc. Extreme views often stand out. Westboro Baptist are an example.

There'd be varying levels of support for messages about offshore camps, mining, changing the flag and so on, but I don't know that there'd be many people fully behind that list.

Reply #669643 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last year

There are ways in which I love this thread, and ways in which it makes me despair for democracy. The former probably find it easy to tell which is which.

Reply #669656 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last year

The former what?

Reply #669657 | Report this post


Reality  
Last year

Wow this escalated quickly!

Its always the crazies on all sides that get the media attention cause they get the clicks.

Greens/SJW/Antifa nutters
Changedate/Invasion day nutters who want to Burn Australia
Anti Gay marriage conservatives nutters
Far right anti immigrant groups etc

really the Majority of people are somewhere in the middle and just want jobs, safety and a good environment for there families to live.

The hate spewed above going both ways is why some of these now hot button topics are dividing and not healing or bringing us together!

I think we can probably blame Twitter/Facebook for giving these idiots all a bigger voice than they should have.


Reply #669709 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last year

^very fine people on both sides.

Reply #669711 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last year

The one thing I would like to comment on seriously is Duke Fan's post because the suggestion upthread that cherry-picking opinions from the minority that happen to agree with you doesn't prove your point seems to have escaped him.

#378 and Luuuc are right that it would be really helpful to survey the indigenous population about the issues that matter to them and potential solutions. Duke Fan, there's nothing wrong with bringing forth an opinion that says the emphasis on change the date is tokenistic and fails to address the severe and debilitating disadvantage faced disproportionately by the indigenous community. But tokenism matters, and in many ways it is what has allowed Trump to succeed: he is lying to the people who voted for him about the ways in which his policies are likely to affect them BUT it doesn't matter because he's *talking* to them, which is something the majority of politicians have never bothered to do.

Would it be better if the Greens rolled out a program to genuinely 'close the gap'? Yes. There are so many ways in which the indigenous community could use government funds and public understanding and goodwill that would be more useful than changing the date. But almost all of those things require huge amounts of money, persistence, consistency and time. They're hard. Changing the date is easy. Changing the date shouldn't excuse failure to address the myriad issues remaining. But like the apology to the stolen generations, why can't it be a step in the right direction? Why does it have to be that if we can't fix it all, we shouldn't do anything? That's not a perspective I understand.

Reply #669753 | Report this post


Duke Fan  
Last year

Nothing escaped me my friend. I was just passing on some thoughts that an indigenous person expressed who doesn't see the need to change the date

Personally I don't have a problem with changing the date. What I do have a problem with is the process that will inevitably need to be gone through, the same as we've gone through with SSM. Millions of dollars will be thrown at it by politicians patting themselves on the back over what a fucking amazing thing they're doing while indigenous kids will continue to live in squalor and be abused.

If someone could just whack the rubber stamp on it and go...."Ok the date now is...." I'd be more than happy. No one will have the balls to do it though and unfortunately irrelevancies like the Greens will never have the power to do anything on their own

Reply #669775 | Report this post




 

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