Anonymous
Years ago

Hawks gone?

More rumours surrounding the survival of the Hawks.
Moving to Melbourne is the latest one.

How the NBL can oversee the selling of Spencely's share to another LK noddy is a joke.
Now on the move apparently. Other clubs borderline as well.

Topic #42939 | Report this topic


Anonymous  
Years ago

Why is it a joke?

Reply #679239 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

St George Illawarra NRL team should step in.

Reply #679240 | Report this post


Jack Toft  
Years ago

Looks like Oscar retired and took his long service at the right time......

Reply #679242 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Hawthorn buying them and moving the team to Tasmania

36ers in trouble so need the Crows deal to go through

Essendon rumour with Bogut as a centre piece gaining momentum

Reply #679246 | Report this post


Udog  
Years ago

Thank god for the soft cap with money filtering down to lower ranked teams. Oh wait.... don't want to get a $5000 fine for bitching about the boss so I'm going to cut myself off.

Reply #679248 | Report this post


ME  
Years ago

Waa. Waa. Waa. If you want a team in your city, turn up and support it. Attendance has been woeful for long enough now. Either pull your weight or get left behind.

Reply #679249 | Report this post


Manu Fieldel  
Years ago

Every single city in the league leaves Wollongong in the dust regarding attendance. Ain't good enough to say they want a team; they've got to vote with their feet. It's ridiculously simple

Reply #679251 | Report this post


Manu Fieldel  
Years ago

Pretty sure the league could do with a better-attended and better-behaved crowd than Illawarra's

Reply #679252 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Let's hope Oscar get's his entitlements.!

LK allegedly has a finger in that pie too. The new LK sock puppet approved by his mate who owns the League. Allegedly. How is that even possible? Yet alone Spencley selling his shares whilst not a lot of money? NBL cupable?

Reply #679256 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Yes, I'm curious too. Allegedly.

Reply #679260 | Report this post


Cram  
Years ago

But league doing well and stuff

Reply #679261 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

League needs teams like hawks and Taipans, can't just have capital cities.

Reply #679266 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Seems like the AFL is getting too tangled up in our league. Scary. What's next - LK sells the entire league to them as his exit strategy? AFL would then kill us off.

Reply #679268 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Why would the AFL kill the NBL off? If they become embedded in the league, they can make money on the off-season.

Reply #679270 | Report this post


D2.0  
Years ago

Sad if so.
I'm the first to say that any new team needs to be financially viable,
but we need these teams to create a viable league. Nobody wants to see a 4 team comp.

Reply #679272 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

#270 until they get bored and kill it off. Or they rebrand each team to an AFL side. Disgusting.

Reply #679273 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

All this talk about a footy team aligning with an NBL team.
Didht the Canterbury Bulldogs in the NRL buy the West Sydney Razorbacks a number of years back?

I recall them saying it was one of the decisions they ever made?

Reply #679279 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Whether they did or did not buy them, it was one of the decisions they ever made.

Reply #679280 | Report this post


Tribe  
Years ago

Don't mind AFL Hawks taking over the team as long as they are placed in Tasmania.

Leave United as Melbourne's sole team, it's not like they are selling out Hisense every week.

Reply #679281 | Report this post


AnotherAnon  
Years ago

I'm a bit of a lurker here - have been for years - and rarely posted anything because you're all so clever and knowledgable (and often full of **** - but that's entertaining too).

But I'm a HawkHead (before there were HawkHeads a couple of years ago I think I was a normal Hawks Fan) till I die and feel compelled to post this time.

There is all this talk of rumours of the Hawks imminent demise (again) and people blaming the public for not getting to the games. I can't disagree that the attendance seems, compared to other clubs, pretty poor, but what no one seems to acknowledge is the attendance as a proportion of population.

Consider these rough population figures (circa 2015):

Sydney 4,526,479
Melbourne 4,353,514
Brisbane 2,209,453
Perth 1,958,912
Adelaide 1,288,681
Wollongong 292,388
Cairns 147,993
(source https://blog.id.com.au/2016/population/population-trends/latest-population-figures-top-50-largest-cities-and-towns-in-australia/)

* Note I consciously left out NZ as they don't represent a specific city.

I don't have accurate figures for attendance for the clubs - but I understand Hawks average around 2,500 and Perth - considered the strongest support in the league - around 12,000.

Some pretty simple numbering tells me :

Hawks are about 0.8% of the population
Perth 0.6%.

I expect with the exception of Cairns no clubs are hitting a level of engagement above what Perth are achieving, let alone Illawarra.

Before you all go shooting your wise mouths off about how it is all meaningless, I acknowledge that it is irrelevant at the end of the day. The fact remains that the Hawks crowds are smaller than other clubs, and with the cost of running a team it seems on the surface unsustainable in such a small market (I wont start on the broken promises of wealth distribution - I can see both sides of that one).

I think the point I'm making is that there is more to it than just simple comparative numbers and the Hawks are actually doing a decent job of engagement and the people of Wollongong are doing better than most in supporting their team.

Constantly bemoaning the attendance as the issue is frankly naive. There is a deeper issue with the imbalance of funding across the league. Stadium ticket sales should be a bonus for the clubs - not the bread and butter.

Reply #679286 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

It is not just the numbers that are bad for the Hawks it is also the fact that the attendance trend over several years is downward even though the population has increased

Reply #679287 | Report this post


FM  
Years ago

A second team in Melbourne has failed how many times?

Melbourne is such a popular purchase that LK still holds a team there because he can't unload it.

Reply #679288 | Report this post


AnotherAnon  
Years ago

@Anon 287
"attendance trend over several years is downward"

Yes that is a fair point - but could that speak more to the previous successes than current failures? I'm not disagreeing - its just worth considering as an explanation.

Reply #679289 | Report this post


koberulz  
Years ago

A second team in Melbourne has failed how many times?
Once.

The only times there have been two Melbourne clubs in the league were the Saints and Spectres in 1979, the Tigers and Giants/Titans from 1999-2004, and the Tigers and Dragons from 2007-09.

Nunawading and St Kilda both survived past Coburg's entry in 1980, and the Dragons simply took their ball and went home after the BA takeover.

The 1999-04 Victoria team is the only time a second Melbourne club has failed.

Reply #679292 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

So the SE Melb Magic didn't exist kobe?

Reply #679296 | Report this post


Isaac  
Years ago

League needs teams like hawks and Taipans, can't just have capital cities.
Why? They're nice and there's history, but why can't a league have only capital or at least larger cities?

AnotherAnon, if their numbers relative to population are more Townsville than Cairns, that doesn't bode well. And if you're implying that the bulk of club revenue should come from league activities (TV, presumably), why would they favour an area that isn't going to provide a significant audience?

I like the Hawks, but I can't see much future there if the fans aren't out there supporting them. Fan support is their best argument at staying involved, and they've stumbled badly.

Reply #679297 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Sixers new owners are now getting the bills and are not happy either.
Only one person to blame for this and it's LK.

Reply #679298 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Childress doesn't come at budget cost and nor should he. The four clubs in the semifinals all spend big and Sydney more than all of them, Brisbane list would be up there as well. Only Hawks and Cairns would be spending less.

Reply #679300 | Report this post


Melbourne Boy  
Years ago

It's not really fair game when United's replacement import was worth more money than Cairns and Illawarras top import.

Reply #679302 | Report this post


koberulz  
Years ago

So the SE Melb Magic didn't exist kobe?
They did, and so did the North Melbourne Giants and Melbourne Tigers.



Why? They're nice and there's history, but why can't a league have only capital or at least larger cities?
Because there aren't enough of them.

Reply #679304 | Report this post


Dome Rat  
Years ago

Sixers owner knew what he was getting in to.

Reply #679305 | Report this post


Udog  
Years ago

Maybe the question should be how many times have Melbourne teams appeared then disappeared? Building a solid foundation for the one at the moment might be better than rushing another back in.

Reply #679307 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

All the focus on the hawks crowds yet other clubs are struggling as bad if not worse. While numbers say one thing they can also be deceiving. Personally i find it hard to believe the bullets, who have a stadium capacity of 4000, were able to get 5000 to a game this season.
2800 paying customers is better than 80% Of the crowd being there with free tickets.

Reply #679310 | Report this post


proud  
Years ago

@ Anotheranon, I love the Hawks and want them to stay where they are but the argument isn't comparing them to anyone else but the Illawarra and Wollongong Hawks and their own history, comparing them to their peaks in sponsorship and attendance and the issue is simply that they lost a few thousand members there and although they had fun teams to watch the fans haven't returned.

When and if they can engage with the former and casual fan to return then we shouldn't see them go, but can they do that?

My argument comes from Townsville and how they sold out home games for over a season straight I think it was and yet the numbers dropped off and whilst I'd have loved to persist with Townsville they died for multiple reasons and Hawks will too if more casuals don't rock up and love it so much that they keep returning and as a Wildcats member I have seen several times people come in for their first game of basketball and love it so much that they become members and that is what I hope happens in Illawarra too

Reply #679311 | Report this post


Hoopie  
Years ago

St Kilda and North Melbourne were screwed by the NBL administrators who, from memory, forced them to merge with Nunawading or Eastside or whatever they were called at the time.

I don't think North Melbourne were in financial trouble at the time, as they typically had full houses for Scott Fisher and co.

Reply #679313 | Report this post


koberulz  
Years ago

St Kilda and North Melbourne were screwed by the NBL administrators who, from memory, forced them to merge with Nunawading or Eastside or whatever they were called at the time.

I don't think North Melbourne were in financial trouble at the time, as they typically had full houses for Scott Fisher and co.
St. Kilda merged with Eastside in 1992 to form South East Melbourne, although by that time the Saints were garbage and had rebranded twice.

North Melbourne merged with SE Melbourne to form Victoria after the 1998 season, a full six years after Scott Fisher moved to Perth.

Reply #679315 | Report this post


WookieE  
Years ago

Rationalise it any way that you think will make more sense, but when push comes to shove, whether it's because the new ownership pushed the more passionate fans away, or that the team hasn't been engaging with the community as much, or the rent on the WEC is too high and has pushed ticket prices up to a really unreasonable amount (every time I think about going down myself or taking the family down to a game, I check the prices for decently located seats and it's really outrageous), the end result is that they regularly get under 3000 people to games and that's just not enough to sustain them...

The league really dropped the ball with the redistribution of the soft cap $$$ and it really is a stain on the league that has otherwise come a long way, but teams should be able to stand on their own two feet without handouts from clubs...

Reply #679316 | Report this post


NJS  
Years ago

North Melbourne almost went under in the 1993 offseason. Rebranded themselves to look like Charlotte hornets, brought D-Mac in and won the championship.

Eastside and Southern Melbourne (St Kilda) merged to form the Magic in 1992.

Magic and North Melbourne merged to form the Victoria Titans in 1998ish.

Reply #679317 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

"The league really dropped the ball with the redistribution of the soft cap $$$"

Perhaps strangling them out of viability was the long-term plan.

Reply #679318 | Report this post


ME  
Years ago

I love the LK bashing. Let's forget the fact there would be no league without him, because some backwards bumpkin town that doesn't even turn up to games might lose the team that they obviously don't care enough about!

Reply #679320 | Report this post


Isaac  
Years ago

Because there aren't enough of them.
Allowing for Gold Coast and second teams in particular cities, I don't think so.

To whoever else it was, Brisbane are two years into a return and are yet to have a finals run in this era. They should get there.

Illawarra have been running for years and were coming off the back of a grand final appearance. Somewhere with admin changes they seem to have dropped the ball.

Reply #679321 | Report this post


Haz  
Years ago

To the anon poster that mentioned Brisbane's crowds and questioned a 5000 attendance - they play a few games at the 12000 seat Brisbane Entertainment Center and thats when they got 5000. Brisbane have problems too, but Illawarra is in real trouble right now.

Also, still on the same anon poster who said other clubs are struggling as bad or worse, the Hawks are by far the worst in the league. Aside from Brisbane (who still got bigger crowds even when playing in the much smaller BCC), the other 6 clubs get at least double the attendances that the Hawks do.

Reply #679324 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Happy to bash LK with the now 4 import rule to possibly be implemented. Just simply stupid beyond belief IMO.

Reply #679326 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

"this is a joke"
"stupid beyond belief"
"LK is to blame"

Any chance on actually explaining these comments?

Reply #679329 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

If you think the NBL wouldn't exist without LK you are wrong

It would exist in some shape or form

Perth and Adelaide had big crowds without LK

Melbourne finally moved to a decent stadium and the crowd followed

Reply #679331 | Report this post


ME  
Years ago

You think the NBL would exist with only two teams getting anything that looks like a crowd? lol.

Reply #679332 | Report this post


Luuuc  
Years ago

"The league really dropped the ball with the redistribution of the soft cap $$$"

Perhaps strangling them out of viability was the long-term plan.


Sadly, the latter option seems the more likely of the two. You'd think it's not that easy to completely forget a new rule that you had just made a big deal about, and presumably are being reminded about by the teams that are owed money from it.

There aren't enough big cities to make the current version of the competition viable IMO, so if they're planning on leaving places like Cairns & Wollongong behind, they'd better get to work quickly on getting additional teams in the big cities.

Reply #679342 | Report this post


Cram  
Years ago

Without LK, some clubs might be able to spend within their means and still remain competitive, rather than the current plan of

1. Spend money
2. ????
3. Viable league

Reply #679343 | Report this post


ME  
Years ago

I feel like some people just don't like progress. Survival of the fittest. Teams that arent strong enough will fall but the end result will be a stronger league.

Reply #679346 | Report this post


Reality  
Years ago

People can sook about LK all they want but it was that or you'd be watch SEABL on steriods. LK doesn;t get into things to not turn a buck so Hawks are a drain on the league so better they are gone! Its all about overall revenues and regardless of attendance a 2nd Melbourne team makes sense (2 more MU home games to sell out) alos a game in Melb every single weekend!! Great for sponsors and building NBL brand awareness. Even if the hawks sold the joint out every week no one cares or watches them!

Reply #679347 | Report this post


Cram  
Years ago

Yeah, who needs that foundation club anyway huh? History? Pffft. Lets just keep bringing in new clubs every year and let the struggling ones fall by the wayside. That way the Australian sporting public will take us seriously!

The fact that people believe that 8 clubs can keep up with this spending, let alone the mythical "expansion" is absurd.

Whenever LK is done with this league his legacy will be tossing aside the history of the league and it'll all be for nothing in the end.

Reply #679348 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Clearly the ownership of Brisbane is making LK shitloads.
BTW the new owner of the Sixers might have known what he was in for but he isn't very happy about it now apparently. Unpaid bills he inherited.

Reply #679350 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Sounds like he didn't do his due diligence then!

Reply #679351 | Report this post


Curtley  
Years ago

At the very least can the hawks haters who want them gone agree that they should stay until there is a team to replace them? A 7 team nbl regardless of revenue is not a win.

Reply #679354 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

I was the one that stated the NBL needed regional teams like Illawara and Cairns. If we're just going to have capitals its Melbourne, Sydney, Adelaide, Perth and Brisbane. Not forgetting Tasmania and not knocking them, but they are more or less a regional fan base. Put in New Zealand. Suddenly we have 6 teams or do we dilute the fan bases of the capitals and put in two teams. How are Adelaide and Brisbane going to cope then, Brisbane are struggling and new(returned to the league) and theres no way Adelaide will welcome a second team. Its not like Port and Crows where there was a natural division.
AFL are funnelling and losing money in setting up Giants and Suns but are looking at big picture. Sure the NBL has nowhere near the financial influence, but the league has dropped the ball in getting interest in new territories. League needs to prop up Cairns and Hawks, don't know how, but going and watching the same 5 teams will be terrible. Maybe look at other leagues and how they do things, obviously rich owners and sponsors are key. Hell, get the NBA involved and let them send draftees here. Damn, in desperation let Lavar head down here and bring his circus. Sell teams to China or Russia and let them spend their billions here.

Reply #679363 | Report this post


Jack Toft  
Years ago

Would be a shame if the Hawks have to move from Illawarra due to financial reasons.

There are some synergies with the Hawthorn Hawks nickname per se, but a relocation threatens to dis-engage Illawarra / Wollongong fans from the NBL.

The Illawarra steelers are a good example of fan management. The Illawarra area was already a recruitment area for the St George Dragons. When the NSWRL was expanding, the Steelers came on board for the 1982 season and the 1998 season was their last.

They merged with the Dragons to form St George Illawarra and the Dragons now play home some games in Wollongong each season. Talk to any Gonger and they supported the Dragons pre Steelers, then they supported the Steelers (and Dragons) in the golden age, now they support SGI.

It would be hard to see Gongers support a rebadged team playing out of Launceston wearing brown and gold. I don't think many Cannons fans ended up supporting the Slingers....

I guess at the end of the day, the NBL needs to look at what teams need to be in the league strategically and then plan to achieve that. I think each team pays a fee per year to HQ and if Wollongong really want their team, I could argue with the NBL that as a Foundation Team we've done enough not to pay it.

Reply #679364 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

"Sixers new owners are now getting the bills and are not happy either.
Only one person to blame for this and it's LK."

Wow, another amateur hour NBL club owner. You own it, you pay for it! Nothing seems to change.

"I don't think many Cannons fans ended up supporting the Slingers...."

or the Hunter Pirates ;)

Reply #679380 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

The anti-regional team thing is not new. When Kristina Keneally ran BA (when it in turn ran the NBL) it was well-known that she favoured major market teams over the regionals - the Hawks barely survived at the time. BA were quite happy to let the Hawks die.

As others have said, it is ultimately up to the Hawks fans to turn up every week, which they haven't been doing of late, and it's definitely being noticed. I love the Hawks and I don't want to see them die, but it seems inevitable given recent events.

Reply #679385 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

LK's mate doing due diligence? How can the NBL / LK even allow this to happen, the same as for the Hawks.
The Hawks are bleeding money, Spencley sells his share to a reported mate of LK's. Seriously that's allowed?
One would hope the Hawks were also in the black when the ownership was sold.

Reply #679395 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Yeah, it is ridiculous that Qantas did not make Ansett financially viable when they went belly up. Absolutely crazy. I liked Ansett, hated Qantas. How dare Qantas do that to us Ansett fans.

Reply #679396 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Yeah it's becoming evident that even the Sixers owner is just another LK mate. It's basically a league with teams owned by people he knows. Not viable in the long run.

Reply #679408 | Report this post


WookieE  
Years ago

I really don't think there are any Hawks haters in here, especially wanting any team to disappear, which is saying something, as there is a long history of wanting to bash Hawks teams and fans, but I think most of us have gone through this at one stage or another, so most of us are sympathetic, but considering it's been a few years and crowds are just getting worse there, what else can be done? If they can't manage it themselves, they shouldn't expect to keep getting bailed out by the league...

It's a Foundation Club, which is great, but how long will teams need to struggle before the league can't keep falling behind because of them?

Reply #679411 | Report this post


Isaac  
Years ago

There aren't enough big cities to make the current version of the competition viable IMO, so if they're planning on leaving places like Cairns & Wollongong behind, they'd better get to work quickly on getting additional teams in the big cities.
Why not?

I'd argue that 6 of the 8 teams are in key spots already. Cairns coping OK for now. If the Hawks are best moved to being a second Melbourne team, that makes 7 strong teams and a solid regional team. They're often considering a part-Chinese team out of the Gold Coast.

Holding at 8 strong teams (if "expansion" replaces regional teams) isn't terrible IMO. Consolidates the talent somewhat.

I think the Hawthorn/Illawarra thing is pretty actively being pursued, so that would address the only pressing need.

Reply #679412 | Report this post


Cram  
Years ago

Holding at 8 teams, and killing ANOTHER club with history, when most of those 8 clubs rely on LK and his mates to prop them up because they cant afford the spending that LK pushes for IS terrible, especially whenever he pulls the pin and it falls over anyway.

Reply #679413 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

The problem is that everytime this happens, the community rallies around, decries how the region needs them. Suddenly support happens, sponsors come in trying to look like knights in shining armour. And fans decide to come. Then a couple of years later its all forgotten and it starts all again.
http://www.illawarramercury.com.au/story/5153193/saving-the-lllawarras-heart-and-soul/

I really want the Hawks to keep going, theyre probably most peoples second favourite team as battlers, but if the league does bail them out they need to say this is the last time.

Reply #679414 | Report this post


Cram  
Years ago

At least the Hawks have a chance to rally around their team. Not everybody gets that.

Reply #679416 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

"At least the Hawks have a chance to rally around their team. Not everybody gets that. "

Boo freaking hoo.. Move on. The rest of the world has.

Reply #679417 | Report this post


LoveBroker  
Years ago

"Sixers new owners are now getting the bills and are not happy either.
Only one person to blame for this and it's LK."

I am confused by this...

The new owners signed off on the budget as part of their due diligence, how can they be 'not happy'? Unless they are in the habit of buying ongoing concerns without looking at the books.

And how is LK to blame or the Sixers' bills? He has no ability to raise purchase orders on behalf of the team.

Reply #679422 | Report this post


LoveBroker  
Years ago

For those blaming the non-existent league equalisation payments for the Hawks' predicament...

Those payments should not be treated as expected revenue.

It was never even stipulated exactly how much of the luxury tax they would even get.

At best those funds should have been seen as a bonus rather than expected general revenue.

If a team is sitting there expecting these monies, the inference becomes they are purposely fielding a cheap un-competitive team just for the handouts. If team is doing this, why are they in the league?

Reply #679423 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Great quote here." Stadium ticket sales should be a bonus for the clubs - not the bread and butter." 100% spot on.

Set your budget with no seats sold. If teams rely on crowds to turn up and then they don't, they are obviously doomed.
Factor n the potential crowd numbers and worst case scenario if you need to factor in bums on seats then make it 50% of whatever that magical figure is.

Reply #679426 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

New owner of Sixers is just another LK mate. That's why the front office is still as hopeless as ever and LK himself arranged for the stadium to be rearranged and improve lighting on TV.

I would assume LK promised him it wouldn't cost as much as it has since now they've realised the budget hole is great than what LK sold to them.

Reply #679432 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

greater than*

Reply #679433 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

"Great quote here." Stadium ticket sales should be a bonus for the clubs - not the bread and butter." 100% spot on."


That is one of the dumbest things I have ever seen here.
Every club would instantly have to budget for zero paid players. What a wonderful league that would result in!
That would be what is known as a self-fulfilling prophecy. Sign volunteer players, no one wants to see them so no one turns up to games, and then you can be proud of how accurate you were for budgeting on zero stadium tickets sold. Genius.

Reply #679437 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

The current 36ers owner was part of the group that took over from SOS

He then bought out the others to be in charge solely

I am surprised to read people write he didn't know about costs or bills because he has been in it for long enough to know what reality is

Reply #679438 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Can you read at all? Comprehension? Clearly not. Zero paid players based on no budget at all? How is that even possible? Crack's working Eh.
How can anyone guess on any night / season bums on seats. That's a guesstimate which in many teams over the years we have seen not work.How can that be even logically factored into a budget.
Spirit 800 people to a game, the Ville no one, Hawks pathetic, Kings on Wed nights.


Reply #679439 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

"Set your budget with no seats sold."

One of them dumbest things that has ever been said here.

Reply #679440 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Hawks average crowd about 2.5k, let's say average of $30 per ticket, 14 reg season home games, so that is $1 mil
Take a mil away from the Hawks budget and see what product they are able to put on the floor. Not pretty.
Silly idea. Ridiculous actually, not silly. Same league, different reality.

Reply #679441 | Report this post


SteveK2  
Years ago

Those payments should not be treated as expected revenue.

It was never even stipulated exactly how much of the luxury tax they would even get.


Correct. The SES was never intended to be a Robin Hood style redistributed revenue. Its an emergency fund to help clubs that can't meet the Salary Floor which is 90% of that season's target soft cap.

Clubs will only get enough to make up what they lack to reach the Salary Floor.

Reply #679444 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

So go and get the Extra $1mill in sponsorship. No one turns up to the game who cares.
Oh did you read the bit I said about budget for 50% of the potential seats?
Equally if you can't find $5 mill+ to compete in the NBL then you are wasting your time. What's the Hawks budget BTW?
Simple really the budgets have gone out the door and we are now back where we were in the 90's. The rich survive and the semi poor go under. 4 imports laughable. How about 5 imports.? Where will it stop.
Why waste your money on 3 teams playing in the USA LK? That's wank.All it proves is how easily you can waste money that should be invested into the NBL.
How's the Brisbane experiment going? NO ONE wanted to buy into the Brisbane franchise over many years, but you decided to waste more millions on that underperforming expensive franchise. Get Spencely to sell to a mate? Wow. Lowballed there for sure.

Reply #679446 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

So you went from saying budget for no seats being sold, to budget for 50%? You are just making it up as you go along.

Reply #679447 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

As for the rest of your post, its just rambling nonsense. Go to drunk Bruce, you're bed.

Reply #679449 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

I just bought a car and now have found a ton of rust underneath and a few other things I was not aware of, and did not have checked. Friggin LK!

Reply #679451 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

We're so lucky we dont have a points cap anymore. Whoever introduced that is an idiot.

Reply #679452 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

"Excuse me Sir/Ma'am, could I trouble you for $200k per season to be a major sponsor of our amazing local team?"

"Sounds great, but for that much outlay I need some real value for my sponsorship. How many people would see our logos and hear our name throughout the season"

"Well, we're budgeting on zero. Anything more is a bonus"

"Oh, ok, a practical joke. Haha. Good one.
Not."

Reply #679453 | Report this post


Cram  
Years ago

"Boo freaking hoo.. Move on. The rest of the world has."

Yeah, that attitude perfectly sums up the Kestleman era of the league. Just keep churning through teams. There'll alwayd be more. Until there isn't

Reply #679455 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

So how is Kestleman's real estate going? Hope all the finance is locked in.

Reply #679456 | Report this post


koberulz  
Years ago

Allowing for Gold Coast and second teams in particular cities, I don't think so.
Has Gold Coast ever not been a failure, in any sport?

Melbourne seems like the only city that could support multiple teams, and more than two would be tempting fate. The league is far too small at the moment, it really needs to have 10-12 teams in it, and you're not going to get there without regional clubs.



Also, still on the same anon poster who said other clubs are struggling as bad or worse, the Hawks are by far the worst in the league. Aside from Brisbane (who still got bigger crowds even when playing in the much smaller BCC), the other 6 clubs get at least double the attendances that the Hawks do.
From much bigger markets, though.



Even if the hawks sold the joint out every week no one cares or watches them!
That's...interesting logic.

Reply #679463 | Report this post


FM  
Years ago

Melb struggles to support 1 team. It's capacity at Hisense is 3k more than Adel from a population 3 times larger. They are in the Grand Final but have still struggled to sell tickets.

We have seen many second Victorian teams in our lifetime.

Reply #679467 | Report this post


UseTaHoop  
Years ago

KR

The Gold Coast rules the roost in lawn bowls

Reply #679471 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

^^Melbourne are struggling to sell out the finals games because the games are scheduled for Friday night and rep ball means tens of thousands of potential fans can't go. They would probably have a better chance selling out a Thursday night game. There is no mystery behind that one.

Reply #679472 | Report this post


Haz  
Years ago

Regional clubs only have a couple of things going in their favour - strong attendances that keep the league happy, and having somewhat of a monopoly for community engagement (eg they are the only thing in town for locals to support). See Cairns.

For Illawarra, they have failed for many years to draw good enough crowds despite making 2 grand finals in the last decade, and at worst, at least being an entertaining team. Its not like they are not worth watching.

By all accounts they have lost the community. They dont seem to engage as well anymore, and they have a rent agreement with their venue that is unviable and wont win their community over. See Townsville.

If a regional team cant get that support, it becomes very hard to keep them. A struggling big market team still offers more than a struggling regional team. See Brisbane.

LK has never said or implied he wants regional teams out. He's been trying to get a Tasmanian side in. He wants expansion. But if investors aren't lining up to start new clubs or take over struggling one's, then reaching out to parties like the AFL is obviously an option.

Yes the Hawks have a small population. But there was once a time when they were getting 4000 people regularly to their games. Even with less than 300,000 there shouldnt be an excuse to bring in at least 3000-3500 spectators, including free tickets.

Can we all agree that a professional national sporting club should not be drawing the same size crowds as any local WAFL team?

Reply #679480 | Report this post


Reality  
Years ago

Hawthorn + investor to buy license.

Hawks play 6 Home Games + Preseason in Tassie with remaining home games in Melbourne on alternative weekends to MU with the bonus of now having massive derby games and clear air to promote into Melbourne Market.

TV would like the idea as it still engages the Melb market whilst Tassie Governemtn support the idea and it leverages Hawthorns position ahead of North Melbourne in the lucrative Tassie Tourism/Gov Sponsorship market which as per the tourism numbers release by Tourism tassie is working really well so its a natural partnership that works well for everyone (except Illawarra fans but they don't turn up and worse don't tune in!)

Reply #679482 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

I know Stratford came out and said in the Illawarra Mercury that 'the Hawks aren't going anywhere'. But why do I have the distinct feeling that there will be some 'breaking news' in the next month or so that the licence has been sold and the Hawks are moving to Melbourne?

Not just based on what's been said here but all the facts and questions about where this franchise is at - Spenceley getting out when he did, does Stratford have the funds or wherewithal to keep this franchise alive in Wollongong, does the community really care about the Hawks as much as they once did, is the WIN Entertainment Centre deal negotiable and if not are there any viable alternatives, the current GM Kim Welch getting out and heading back to Perth, etc etc etc.

It's well known that the franchise has been run on the smell of an oily rag for years, even when Spenceley took over. The Hawks office is in a demountable building out the front of the Snakepit and before Welch left there was a grand total of 3 full-time staff in the office with a bunch of part-timers and volunteers. In a professional league, I just can't see how that's sustainable, and now without Spenceley's money covering the debts (which are (publicly acknowleged) in the 300K range), how much longer can they go on?

Obviously this is pure speculation, but I won't be shocked at all if the Mercury's next major report on the Hawks is that the city has lost their last team competing in a national competition. I pray that isn't the case, but there's a ton of compelling evidence to the contrary.

Reply #679488 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

The Entertainment Centre in Townsville was one of the reasons the crocs folded I recall. Unreasonable rents?

Reply #679489 | Report this post


Duke Fan  
Years ago

"the city has lost their last team competing in a national competition"

Pssst....heard of the Dragons? They may be a merged team but still playing games at WIN

Reply #679493 | Report this post


Reality  
Years ago

If Stratford got an offer for $500K he is a business man and takes the cash.

Perhaps he gets his $300K plus a share holding in the new entity.

Reply #679502 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

That's funny Duke Fan, I don't recall the NRL having teams in Adelaide or Perth? Calling that league a national competition is laughable.

Reply #679509 | Report this post


Isaac  
Years ago

"Great quote here." Stadium ticket sales should be a bonus for the clubs - not the bread and butter." 100% spot on."

That is one of the dumbest things I have ever seen here.
It's not been phrased or argued well, but you haven't been reading long if you think that's anywhere near the leaderboard of dumbest things. The concept is that tickets should be icing.

Happy for a sports admin type to correct me, but while gate receipts are typically a major portion of sports club revenue, they can decline or aren't growing strongly in major leagues. They may also be susceptible to something like team performance which could be unpredictable for many teams. Media rights is a much stronger growth area, I think - hence the focus with Demetriou on getting/growing the TV deal while their product is taking steady steps forward.

If you can cover the bulk of your operating costs with media rights and sponsorship (the former of which can be locked to a predictable number for years at a time), then the wavering level of at-game support is easier to weather.

Reply #679520 | Report this post


Isaac  
Years ago

That's funny Duke Fan, I don't recall the NRL having teams in Adelaide or Perth? Calling that league a national competition is laughable.
Adelaide Rams in the late 90s. I was at the cricket one day and got roped into appearing in a promo ad for the Rams before they made their debut the following year. Never went to a game and have no interest in NRL (along with most people in Adelaide...).

I googled. The opening round of NRL this season had two games at Perth Stadium. Looks like they might be trying to get something rolling over there?

I think it's reasonable to consider the NRL a national league for the purposes of forum blather. A National Rugby League, even.

Reply #679522 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Perth Reds also failed in the 90s.

Reply #679523 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

"It's not been phrased or argued well, but you haven't been reading long if you think that's anywhere near the leaderboard of dumbest things. The concept is that tickets should be icing."

The same person went on to explain that clubs should budget for not selling any seats!

Reply #679524 | Report this post


Jack Toft  
Years ago

The Rugby League competition was split between the traditional NSWRL/ARL and the Newscorp "Superleague" The split only last a little while before they formed the NRL which we see today. The Superleague only ran for one season (1997), then the Rams played one season in the NRL but dropped out.

SA is an Australian Football state so it makes it hard for rugby to flourish. For those who don't understand it, just remember, rugby league is a game for animals, played by animals. Rugby union is a game for animals played by gentlemen.

Reply #679532 | Report this post


anon  
Years ago

The Hawks can survive and flourish if managed correctly. It is nonsense to expect the NBL to have
only big city teams. There have been many examples of these teams failing. The most important thing is for teams to have the right model. Perth and Cairns have both been successful but have completely different models. Cairns regularly post a profit as does Perth. The same could not be said for Melbourne, Sydney or Perth. We are headed for disaster if we continue to push up the spend for teams. Over paid players in Melbourne or Sydney inflates the whole market and makes it unsustainable. The Bullets and Sydney drove this in the mid 2000's and the results were a disaster, the league nearly folding, playing one season with 7 teams. Hawks need to do a better job of marketing and engaging their fan base, it is there. More money on marketing the game and teams and less on overpaid players. The Hawks made the finals last year on the back of good coaching, solid Australians and only one high quality import. Don't be fooled by the propaganda the apple may be shiny on the outside but ???

Reply #679533 | Report this post


Isaac  
Years ago

They said to set your budget excluding gate receipts. Not to try and exist without selling tickets. e.g., bank first on the more predictable things.

Like I said, it's poorly argued, but if you can stabilise your club without assuming targets for ticket sales (say, with a great TV deal as your base), that's likely to be more reliable. You can be a pedant on the internet or you can be a bit forgiving with your interpretation and see what they were getting at. Suspect the former is better for my pageviews than your mental health arguing like that day in and out on Hoops.

This was one of the original comments:


"Great quote here." Stadium ticket sales should be a bonus for the clubs - not the bread and butter." 100% spot on."

That is one of the dumbest things I have ever seen here.
I don't see how suggesting that aiming to get other components, say media rights, as the core of your budget is "one of the dumbest things I have ever seen here".

Media rights you tend to lock up years at a time. In successful leagues, it's a major focus for good reason. Sponsorship you often line up before or early in the season. Outside of memberships, per-game seats are flaky and at the mercy of time of year, other things happening in the city, what's on TV, your star getting injured, roadworks, hot weather, etc.

Reply #679535 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Exactly. Your revenue base should be from media rights and sponsors etc. Unfortunately the problem the NBL has is there are no media rights which means you need a variable such as ticket sales to scrape on by (in most cases). Not good.

Reply #679538 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

SA is an Australian Football state so it makes it hard for rugby to flourish. For those who don't understand it, just remember, rugby league is a game for animals, played by animals. Rugby union is a game for animals played by gentlemen

Mate, I'm still laughing at this, I quite like both rugby codes when played with attack minded players and coaches but that is a fantastic quote.

Reply #679559 | Report this post


Cram  
Years ago

Media rights in the NBL? Worth less than the catering budget for one night for AFL commentators

Reply #679561 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

"Media rights in the NBL? Worth less than the catering budget for one night for AFL commentators "

Welcome back Mr. Positive. Always happy, always smiling. Never a complaint in the whole world.

Reply #679564 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

That rugby code quote was gold.

Reply #679569 | Report this post


koberulz  
Years ago

The Bullets and Sydney drove this in the mid 2000's and the results were a disaster, the league nearly folding, playing one season with 7 teams
The league has never had fewer than eight teams.

Reply #679572 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

"The league has never had fewer than eight teams."

Shh.. Don't spoil a good story

BTW how do you quote?

Reply #679579 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Like this.

Reply #679585 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

<.blockquote>your text here<./blockquote>

remove the dots

Reply #679587 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

your text here

Reply #679588 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Quote like this


Thank you kind sir.

Reply #679589 | Report this post


Jack Toft  
Years ago

My life is now complete

Reply #679592 | Report this post


koberulz  
Years ago

<.blockquote>your text here<./blockquote>

remove the dots
It's clearer if you don't mess with extraneous punctuation:
<blockquote>your text here</blockquote>

Reply #679595 | Report this post


curious  
Years ago

This is the correct rugby quote:

Rugby League is a gentleman's game played by thugs.
Rugby Union is a thug's game played by gentlemen.

Reply #679596 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

My life is now complete


So are the Hawks :)

Reply #679597 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Animals sounds way better.

Oh and kr thanks for being neurotic, I helped the guy out and he thanked me and then you just had to add your own two cents.

Reply #679599 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Yawn, no one here cares about you two pointless trolls. Go away.

Reply #679626 | Report this post


Isaac  
Years ago

Media rights in the NBL? Worth less than the catering budget for one night for AFL commentators

Doesn't mean they aim to continue along those lines.

PS, you're such a sour bastard!

Reply #679632 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

I have heard that decision day for the Hawks license was today. So far no news is good news for Hawks supporters.
The $300k debt that another poster mentioned on here was the sticking point for a local Wollongong investor. If the finance wasn't sorted by today, the NBL was going to step in a revoke the license.
As I said, as far I know that didn't happen today. So whoever was involved at the top end of the NBL, or the local investors have remained tight lipped at least for today.

Reply #679634 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

The Ill. Mercury reported the $350K which was denied and was a lesser amount according to the article.
Either way the Hawks are in trouble again. Sad news.

Reply #679643 | Report this post


Cram  
Years ago

"PS, you're such a sour bastard!"

Yep, I get that. Doesn't mean what I'm saying ain't true.

Reply #679701 | Report this post


LoveBroker  
Years ago

"The $300k debt that another poster mentioned on here was the sticking point for a local Wollongong investor."

I don't get it....if Spenceley has sold and this investor has bought, then the debt belongs to the new investor.

Reply #679704 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

The new investor (LK puppet) wants to pass on the debt to the prospective new new owner.

If that make sense.

Reply #679712 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

By new investor I meant the current "owner" the dude who took over from Spenceley for LK until they find someone new.

Reply #679713 | Report this post


Isaac  
Years ago

As I understand it, there's Stratford and then a potential new local investor (previously a sponsor) independent of all the Hawthorn stuff. My read of the comments up-page were that the new local is the one disinterested in wearing past debt.

Cram,

Yep, I get that. Doesn't mean what I'm saying ain't true.
I think it's arguing points from a different angle. Both in talking down the NBL media rights when I'm talking about the model they're aiming for; and in arguing community-vs-premium basis for teams when both may be viable, both are risky, and both have a history of trouble in the NBL.

Reply #679722 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

your text here

Just testing

Reply #679724 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Isn't Spenceley mates with LK too?

Reply #679727 | Report this post


Cram  
Years ago

"I think it's arguing points from a different angle. Both in talking down the NBL media rights when I'm talking about the model they're aiming for; and in arguing community-vs-premium basis for teams when both may be viable, both are risky, and both have a history of trouble in the NBL."

Fair points. Having said that, its all well and good to aim for media money (it would be silly not to) but in the context of a team not able to keep up with a league that is consistently spending more than it earns, with a media deal that loses it money, to argue that ticket money should be a bonus rather than a foundation a bit rich.

Sorry about the absurdly long sentence

Reply #679736 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Yes they are mates.

Reply #679755 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Yes that's the whole point. Spencley get out of jail and sells to LK's mate. How the NBL can allow that to happen? Oh that's right LK owns the NBL and is seems rips his mate off. Adelaide the same. So LK really owns 4 teams.
Utd, Bullets, Hawks and Adel.

Reply #679784 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Exactly. What a deck of cards that has been built.

This is worse than when Eddy Groves owned the Bullets and Sixers.

Reply #679949 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

But at least LK is spending his money, not someone else's.
Let's hope his building stuff keeps going gangbusters ;)

Reply #679967 | Report this post


jjj  
Years ago

Hawks may be in trouble but it is business as usual. mat Campbell has taken over as Gm from Kim Welch (who was a bust) and is already working behind the scenes. I think the off season will be the usual struggle it always is in Wollongong but eventually they will line up for another season

Reply #679984 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

That's good news. Next season will be 40th anniversary.

Reply #679996 | Report this post


gongski  
Years ago

If Matt Campbell as GM is true then finally Hawks heading in the right direction. KW was a prudish brat who did very little, yea he had his hands tied by previous owner however he had NO prior experience in the role. Lacked the understanding and the desire to actually understand that in a small league competing for sponsorship $$ and bums on seats that you need to engage with the people bringing you $$. Had NO negotiating skills with the stadium (WEC). MC is a hawks legend, Wollongong local and will engage the community to get behind their team once and for all and get bums on seats. Now MC should bring back all the people that were wronged by the previous GM and owner as some decisions were not in the spirit of the club and or region. Hopefully for the club, community and NBL the Hawks can find financial stability, strong front office leadership, committed owners for the long game as we cant have the same headlines every couple of years.

Reply #680318 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

KW is a perfect example of hiring someone because it looks like they achieved a lot but were really made to look good by previously working for the strongest NBL franchise.

Reply #680379 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Shame that Campbell wasn't there from the outset. So all that money wasted on an incompetent appointment.

Reply #680445 | Report this post


Pointybits  
Years ago

I love the fact that Lk can shut down on screen comments on refs but can't shut down wild posts about anything truth or lies.
Welcome Matty Campbell to the role of GM at the Hawks. Above posts have indicated that those that matter have talked positively to back a continuing Illawarra Hawks

A long time ago both Tasmanian cities had NBL teams but both failed to encourage enough bums on seats so folded. Spruiking that this where an N BL team should come from is simply pie in the sky

Reply #680959 | Report this post




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