Anonymous
Last year

Perth v Melbourne 12k viewers on 9GO in Perth

Only 12k viewers from Perth tuned in to watch Perth host Melbourne on 9GO on Saturday.

I would be interested to see Foxtel numbers.

Last season Perth averaged 13,121 (attendance) per home game.

Two games this season, they have drawn 11,599 and 11,675 respectively.

Obviously Perth fans are unhappy about the 12pm tip off.

Big story on the back page of today's West Australian newspaper

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Isaac  
Last year

When you say "only" with regard to 9Go, what is a normal Perth-only 9Go figure for a home game that the most committed are already attending?

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paul  
Last year

Yes, Perth fans are unhappy with 12pm tip-offs, but given the long-term FTA average audience is around 30K (and around 40K so far this season) would you really expect an average audience of more than 12K in Perth?

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D2.0  
Last year

Don't know about tv audience, but yes we dislike noon games.
Significant patches of empty seats.

Sunday arvo games were never the best attended, so I suspect this is just more of the same. Hard to be accurate, but I would guestimate the crowds for the arvo games would be down maybe 1000 compared to evenings.

I'd also go as far as to say that the anger runs deeper than that, and that it is only going to get worse. You know how some times you whinge and bitch about a change, then when it happens its just kinda meh, and you learn to live with it?
Well this isn't one of those.
It's not about when you eat lunch, or whether your favourite cafe is open, its just bloody inconvenient.

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Haz  
Last year

12k watching in Perth on TV, 12k in the arena attending... would this be considered good? There'd also be a lot of Perth fans that missed the game (on TV and at the game) due to the many other commitments people have on at that time on a Saturday.

Plus those that have Fox would watch it in HD. A lot of factors but possible thats a good result considering?

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Anonymous  
Last year

I will wait until I hear from LV about ow a fan that didn't attend a 12pm game is worth more than a fan who didn't attend a 4pm game

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LV  
Last year

Arguably a fan at a 12pm game is worth more as they're more likely to buy food in the venue

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Another Anon  
Last year

Article for those interested:
https://thewest.com.au/sport/perth-wildcats/noon-matches-affecting-perth-wildcats-crowds-nbl-to-review-timeslot-ng-b881005540z

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Anonymous  
Last year

i watched it on fox, and im in perth. So the audience can see it on different platforms

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Anonymous  
Last year

So the NBL just says "we didn't know how it was going to go" and wipe their hands of the problem? That's unacceptable. The feedback was strongly against the timeslot from the start - they can't be that ignorant.

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Luuuc  
Last year

The schedule changes this season seem focussed on being friendly to eastern states TV viewers, not Perth tv viewers, so Perth's ratings on GO are pretty irrelevant IMO.
Attendance has taken a hit but has still been respectable. 3 games in a row like this makes it especially painful though I think. The 2nd one being Melbourne probably made people put in maximum effort to be there. Next one is NZ so it will be interesting to see what that turnout is like.

A lot of members are understandably going to be hesitant to re-join next season unless they know the schedule in advance, so they'll want to have some solid plans in place before this season is finished. That's when it will really hit the club hardest (financially) I think.

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Anonymous  
Last year

fwiw I used to occasionally buy a couple of beers at the arvo/night games, but haven't bothered buying anything at the 12pm ones.

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Haz  
Last year

Will always happen when TV negotiations take all off season to work out causing laat minute fixturing problems.

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Isaac  
Last year

You can see why the NBL would want it though - gives the league a big crowd on TV in the slot they've presumably been offered. I assume the distant target is games throughout the week, and TV as a major component of the sport, as with the NBA in both cases. That's going to need some awkward changes along the way to help happen - like rent-a-crowd for Mon-Tues games or Perth copping morning games.

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J  
Last year

Can't say im a fan of the expression "it will take time for fans to adjust" suggests they aren't planning to change anything

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Luuuc  
Last year

Yeah it's just unfortunate that the largest crowd happens to be in the location with the -3 hours time difference.

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Luuuc  
Last year

... hence my suggestion a week or two ago that Kestelman's next investment should be to buy daylight savings for WA. I think a 1pm tip-off on Saturdays would inconvenience quite a few less Perth fans than the noon one.

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Food for thought  
Last year

Who cares what it only rated in Perth? Why do we keep getting shit overviews of ratings rather than the full bloody ratings? Beyond annoying.

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Food for thought  
Last year

"Yes, Perth fans are unhappy with 12pm tip-offs, but given the long-term FTA average audience is around 30K (and around 40K so far this season) would you really expect an average audience of more than 12K in Perth?"

Can you share the actual numbers with us? I've been trying everything to see how it is tracking on 9Go but for some reason it seems to be secret squirrel business.

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Anonymous  
Last year

It's a Perth-centric article. The author should include nationwide figures for context though. Useless.

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Vodka 63  
Last year

The league and the Wildcats are kidding themselves if they think what they are seeing this season is the worst of it. I dont know anyone who likes the noon start time. Many, including myself have rearranged things to be there but hate the start time. I know many people members who cant make it so give their tickets away given they are already paid for. I wont renew next year if we have the same schedule as this year. Hopefully the league realises that they are going to have to give some certainty about next years schedule before the Wildcats ask fans to put their hands in their pockets for next year as soon as this season finishes

It will also be interesting to see what happens with the other three games that were originally in the schedule as a noon start but are now TBA

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Food for thought  
Last year

Perth can't dictate to the league and to 9Go though. As far as I am concerned the choice is either to deal with the midday starts, or not expect to be on free to air TV. You can't expect both.

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Vodka 63  
Last year

I think the benefit to the Wildcats from being on FTA in the Eastern States at 3pm on a Saturday would be minimal at best. If they had the choice, I am sure they would elect more fan-friendly start times and bigger crowds. they are basically being screwed by the NBL to satisfy its broader ambitions

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anon  
Last year

as others have said, the true impact will be felt next year. I have been a member 26 straight years and I am going to the midday games, but not happy with them.

My kids aren't playing sport yet so not too hard to get to games, but will be in future. Just kills the whole day with a game at midday. 2pm should be earliest, even then it is much better at 4pm or 6pm like it has for every year since I can remember

I won't be renewing unless there is certainty on schedule and the 2 guys that sit with me are the same.

Most in our block aren't happy but would rather try and make it to games rather than waste their ticket as they had already paid for them.

Let's hope they get some TV certainty before the off season otherwise it may be tough off-season for membership renewals for the wildcats.

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KB3  
Last year

This was always going to be an issue

The NBL simply doesn't generate any TV revenue to dictate terms to teams that are reliant on ticket sales as their revenue source

TV doesn't generate enough ratings for Tier 1 sponsors to off set the loss in the stands for the game in tv value.

It wasn't that long ago that AFL teams were on delay in the host city so that it didn't impact on the clubs revenue streams. Now that they have the big TV deal , TV dictates what and when to the AFL.

NBL clubs are coping it hard as LK tries to fake their way to success.

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Anonymous  
Last year

"hence my suggestion a week or two ago that Kestelman's next investment should be to buy daylight savings for WA."

This is ridiculous. Everyone knows daylight saving fades the curtain - have you ever been to a home open with faded drapery??

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Anonymous  
Last year

"Perth can't dictate to the league and to 9Go though. As far as I am concerned the choice is either to deal with the midday starts, or not expect to be on free to air TV. You can't expect both. "



Perth doesn't give 2 shits about FTA, that doesn't pay the bills.

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AD  
Last year

I know people hate Perf, but I can't understand why more can't comprehend what a massive problem this is?

The MAJORITY of games I don't want to go to.
I have already told the Wildcats to cancel my auto-renewal for next season. I will simple pay for the games I want, and watch the rest on replay.

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Anonymous  
Last year

Fair enough. Anyone who doesn't want to go to most of the games would be silly to buy a membership.

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Anonymous  
Last year

The 9GO deal is a proven model, even for WA teams.

The deal is based off the netball arrangement. The revenue generated (advertising) led to a multi-million dollar cash investment into the sport. Basketball's viewer numbers are in the same ball park as Netball's when their tv deal commenced.

Attendance numbers can be resolved easily if management include a new ticketing price point for this time slot. It would have minimal affect on their bottom line and in all likelihood it would open up opportunities to gain new supporters.

The attendance figures in WA for the netball have been barely affected with their deal. They have the same midday commencement of matches.

For the NBL it would be critical to generate revenue, which this model has proven to achieve. It is now up to the Clubs to be creative with either their price point for existing members or for securing new attendees.

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Anonymous  
Last year

I have to miss all the noon games ....right in the middle of the team I coach and my son plays & refs.

Have managed to give the tickets away to the Melb game, couldn't for the Brisbane game ....oh well.

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Anonymous  
Last year

" It is now up to the Clubs to be creative with either their price point for existing members or for securing new attendees."

Which is not possible when memberships are sold well in advance in the fixtures

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J  
Last year

Cats could be losing hundreds of thousands due to this, if there is no flow of cash to compensate from that loss from a tv deal then yeah it does and should matter to all clubs affected. No business wants to see their revenue drop that significantly let alone drop at all

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Anonymous  
Last year

The comments from the NBL COO don't really make it sound like the NBL is benefiting from the deal either.

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paul  
Last year

There is potential for the NBL to benefit if the audience grows over the course of the deal, but early on I would say it's more likely to cover some, or hopefully even all, of the broadcast costs.

What concerns me about this is, back when the NBL introduced midweek games for TV they gave a lot them to the Townsville Crocs because they had big crowds and a loyal fan base. There was a lot of ill-feeling about that in Townsville and the club never managed to rebuild their connection with the community.

Now things mightn't go as bad for Perth as a result, but taking your fanbase for granted is never a good idea, and that's what the NBL has done here.

Had the NBL and Wildcats come out together and explained the situation, acknowledged the inconvenience for some fans and offered some sweeteners or refunds straight up, they would have avoided a lot of the negativity. As others have said, we'll see the first real signs of impact for Perth next season.

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koberulz  
Last year

Perth doesn't give 2 shits about FTA, that doesn't pay the bills.
I've heard from multiple sources that Perth specifically asked for a higher FTA allocation this year in order to better attract sponsors.

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AnkleBreaker  
Last year

The crowd numbers have been higher than I expected. Bigger issue is next year, I know a lot of members didn't check the schedule (me included), given we have not had a Sat lunchtime often in the past.

I have not been able to attend any of the Sat games and have given my tickets away to family & friends. I will not auto-renew my tickets for next year until I know the schedule. I don't want to pay and miss out on 20% of the home games again. I expect there might be a few others that will do the same.

What I do hope is that both the NBL & Perth Wildcats don't get too greedy for both corporate success and $$$. The Perth Wildcats have done well by focusing on building up a grassroots following of loyal community fans. They do this by school visits, basketball camps, junior basketball games at half time etc. Cost of membership also needs to be kept affordable for the average Perth Family.

While TV & corporate sponsorship is important there is nothing to gain long term by meeting their needs over grassroot basketball fans. Such as timeslots that are not local fan friendly.

Sydney Kings have been in my opinion the example of how it can go wrong. Forever they have focused on glitz, glamour and corporate deals with little invested in the community fan base....and they have struggled to maintain a loyal following like the Wildcats have.

I feel the A-League and NRL have all gone the same way (without any fact).

Stay focused on your fan base, build everything around your average suburban family and reach out to them as much as you can in many different ways....then the corporate sponsorship and prime TV slots will come your way and they will not hold the negotiating power, as you control the eyeballs and wallets that their salivating little marketers want to reach.

Right now the negotiating power is with the FTA, Foxtel and corporate's and hence we end up with outcomes that are not fan focussed. Fans drop away...TV and corporate sponsorship deals disappear and we go back to where we were before LK. Playing out of local rec centres again.

The average fan!

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koberulz  
Last year

Bigger issue is next year, I know a lot of members didn't check the schedule (me included), given we have not had a Sat lunchtime often in the past...I will not auto-renew my tickets for next year until I know the schedule. I don't want to pay and miss out on 20% of the home games again. I expect there might be a few others that will do the same.
The renewal deadline this was about two weeks after the season finished, around six months before tipoff times were confirmed. I expect the same next year.

If you want to keep your seats and the lower renewal price, you'll likely have to do it blind again.

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Food for thought  
Last year

I think Perth fans think they're the center of the universe a bit here. For your team to exist, the NBL needs to exist. Right now the league has been suckling off Kestleman's tit for five years, and without him there is no league. It is that simple. Now I am not saying we should all bow at his altar and build a shrine to the guy, but the fact is this has to show signs of becoming self-sustaining sometime in the near future or he's gonna walk, and you're not going to have a league within which to even complain about early game times. The sustainability of the NBL and its further improvement relies on Free To Air. The head honchos at Channel 9 have the NBL by the balls, and the NBL, Perth and no one else is any position to dictate to them when or how they will screen the product. You can say all you want that Free To Air doesn't pay the bills, but whose bills are you concerned with? Yourselves? Just one team? There's a whole league to think about here. And even with that ultra-inconvenient time slot, you're still pulling 11,000 fans through the gate. I think you guys will survive just fine. The only other alternative is simply not to show games LIVE from Perth on FTA, but I just know there would be a chorus of toothless bogans howling about that too. Is it ideal to play games at that time? No. But the fact is for the NBL to grow some people may be inconvenienced. In the end it is not you guys forking out tens of millions of dollars on the product and trying to figure out how to get any of it back.

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Vodka 63  
Last year

How about playing a few more east coast games at 3pm to satisfy the broadcaster?

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Anonymous  
Last year

" think Perth fans think they're the center of the universe a bit here. "

If there is tangible evidence that this benefits the league, no problem. The quotes from the NBL in the article don't really suggest there is though.

At the end of the day, people paid for a product but in some ways aren’t getting what they paid for. I get some people are being precious about it but the individuals that genuinely can’t attend games now have every right to be annoyed.

“For your team to exist, the NBL needs to exist”

Yep, and go back five years when the Wildcats were the only team turning a buck, but had to re-invest their profit into the league in order for it to survive. So only a short time ago, for the league to exist, the Wildcats needed to exist. Maybe some appreciation for that would be better than calling their fans toothless bogans.

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koberulz  
Last year

You can say all you want that Free To Air doesn't pay the bills, but whose bills are you concerned with? Yourselves? Just one team? There's a whole league to think about here.
The NBL has had a weekend afternoon timeslot on FTA every year since 2014. From 2014-2018, the Wildcats played only one home game in this timeslot, and it was the deciding game of the grand final so a) it was a bigger draw and b) everyone knew the tipoff time when buying tickets. In 2019 they play six, all of which were announced six months after people had to buy their memberships.

The only other alternative is simply not to show games LIVE from Perth on FTA, but I just know there would be a chorus of toothless bogans howling about that too.
They've had, prior to this, one live home game on FTA since 2011. Please, point to the howling.

even with that ultra-inconvenient time slot, you're still pulling 11,000 fans through the gate
Bullshit 11,000 are coming through the gate. 11,000 are buying tickets, which includes members who purchased seats six months ago expecting the usual slate of Friday night games and who have simply not shown up.

This won't be the case next year.

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AnkleBreaker  
Last year

Food For Thought

I am not saying Perth Fans are the center of the universe, but as a basketball fan, I think what Perth have done over an extended period of time is very much put the fan first, and heavily engaged with their community, which has delivered the fan base they have today.

I think Adelaide have also been pretty successful at doing the same, few other teams have done anywhere near as well with their fan base and that has been the problem with the success of the league.

The best way for Kestelman to ensure the league is sustainable is to invest in the grassroots so that fans are turning up buying memberships and becoming loyal basketball fans. The TV & Sponsors only want eyeballs....they care little for basketball...its just content! Sustainability comes from loyal fan bases.





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AnkleBreaker  
Last year

This has included, scheduling game times with their membership in mind and which brought the most ticket buying fans to the game. Friday nights, Sat nights and the odd Sat afternoon.

You may not also know that Jack Bendat, who is fan focused, was not happy with the NBL scheduling the games that he offered to buy back any tickets for the Sat games which fans could not attend.

So the Wildcats couldn't change the schedule, but they thought of the fan first and said what can we do to say to you our members are still more important than a TV deal any day.....as much as a TV deal is good, no fan no TV.

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Food for thought  
Last year

"If there is tangible evidence that this benefits the league, no problem. The quotes from the NBL in the article don't really suggest there is though.
"

This is something that needs to be built over the course of years. I am not sure what evidence you would expect that it works, or is working, 3 weeks into the first season. What you do have though, is Netball going from strength to strength for doing literally the exact same deal. Now Netball is making bank. So there is tangible evidence for comparison.

"Yep, and go back five years when the Wildcats were the only team turning a buck, but had to re-invest their profit into the league in order for it to survive. So only a short time ago, for the league to exist, the Wildcats needed to exist. Maybe some appreciation for that would be better than calling their fans toothless bogans."

Well I've always said bloody good on them for turning up and investing. But there are going to be some hiccups on the road to sustainability and this is one of them. Yeah, they have every right to be annoyed. Just as I have every right to explain why these hiccups are necessary. No one is trying to shit on the fans. And maybe if the NBL can get commendable ratings they can barter for better timeslots for Perth next year.

"The best way for Kestelman to ensure the league is sustainable is to invest in the grassroots so that fans are turning up buying memberships and becoming loyal basketball fans. The TV & Sponsors only want eyeballs....they care little for basketball...its just content! Sustainability comes from loyal fan bases.
"

Well I think he's investing perfectly fine in the grassroots. At the moment I think everyone is just trying to figure out how to make FTA work. Fact is the NBL needs more revenue to survive and the fanbases need to expand.

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AnkleBreaker  
Last year

Yep, I think that everything is heading in the right direction, and Kestelmen has been nothing but fantastic for Australian Basketball.

And Yes trying to see how we can get the FTA deal to work is the next challenge to sustainability. Just have to keep focused on whats important and not get too seduced by TV $$$.

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Food for thought  
Last year

As for the people saying that most of the NBL's revenue doesn't come from TV, well.... EXACTLY. And that is the problem they're trying to fix.

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J  
Last year

Food for thought, the problem with your thinking is by the time the fta deal becomes worth something you may have actually killed of some of your your most profitable fan bases in perth, which would be far from ideal. Its amusing that on one hand you are happy for the bottom line of teams to be hit for "the greater good" yet you had another thread complaining that the standard of the league had dropped due to a "tightening of purse strings". I hate to mess your thinking up but hitting teams bottom line (esp bigger spending/name teams) will not improve the quality of players that team can afford, so your fta good of the league, by your own reasoning should actually be bad.

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Anonymous  
Last year

If TV rights start to be worth something then every team will benefit from that and it would be something that helps the smaller teams build better rosters

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Anonymous  
Last year

More like Fool for thought, amirite??

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Anonymous  
Last year

"The deal is based off the netball arrangement. The revenue generated (advertising) led to a multi-million dollar cash investment into the sport. Basketball's viewer numbers are in the same ball park as Netball's when their tv deal commenced."

So what was netball's model? Who was the multi million dollar cash investment from?

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Anonymous  
Last year

"I've heard from multiple sources that Perth specifically asked for a higher FTA allocation this year in order to better attract sponsors."

League sources? Team sources? Or fans?

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AnkleBreaker  
Last year

Food for Thought is definitely identifying the hurdles of sustainability, yes the NBL has to get the FTA TV and Corporate sponsorship to get the league sustainable, so he/she is right in what they are saying.

Not right about toothless bogans....I have some friends that have a couple of teeth between them.

The point I am putting forward is that there is a seduction of $$$ and perceived success by getting the NBL on TV, by signing corporate sponsorship's....but if these deals are negotiated at the expense of the fan base i.e poor time slots, higher ticket prices, players at sponsor events rather than school bball clinics etc you erode the fan base and eventually kill the league.

I think Kestelman can get it right, but if he is still putting his hand in his pocket to support the NBL, then time is going to be the enemy.

So if you are a basketball fan, get a membership for your team and get to your games!

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koberulz  
Last year

League sources? Team sources? Or fans?
Basketball people. Better-placed than the average fan, but certainly not to be taken as gospel.

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AnkleBreaker  
Last year

The Wildcats probably did ask for more FTA TV time, seduced by this will bring more sponsors.

That are probably now regretting it as they have had negative fan feedback for the timeslots.

But if the NBL was filling stadiums with a national loyal fan base and they went to the TV and said here you go Perth v Sydney available live 6:30pm WST and we know you will get 50,000 people watching across the country at either 8pm or 8:30pm local time....put in your bids!

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Food for thought  
Last year

"So what was netball's model? Who was the multi million dollar cash investment from?"

It's where the channel doesn't pay for the rights of the broadcast but splits the revenue of viewers and sponsorship. It was unique to Netball and it turned Netball from having similar viewer numbers to we had on Fox, to actually pulling over a million viewers for their grand final and bringing in tens of millions of dollars into the league.

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Food for thought  
Last year

" I hate to mess your thinking up but hitting teams bottom line (esp bigger spending/name teams) will not improve the quality of players that team can afford, so your fta good of the league, by your own reasoning should actually be bad.

"

The fact that FTA ratings = revenue for the league and for clubs seems lost on some people.

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Anonymous  
Last year

"When you say "only" with regard to 9Go, what is a normal Perth-only 9Go figure for a home game that the most committed are already attending?"
When has the NBL been on 9Go ever?

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Food for thought  
Last year

I am not sure the answer to that, but a culminated viewership of at least 21,000 people in Perth watched the game regardless, which is still less than when they were only with Fox Sports and with a full house. And that number doesn't take into account who from Perth watched it in Fox Sports. Certainly the sponsors aren't losing anything in the deal.

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paul  
Last year

That's not correct FFT, for starters 12K is the average audience in Perth (according to the boxes) at any point in the broadcast, not the total viewership, there would have been significantly more watch the game in total. Secondly, the nationwide Fox average audience last year was something like 18K, so the share of that in Perth was likely less than 5K on average.

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proud  
Last year

@food for thought...

The facts are that the Perth Wildcats memberships renewed in April so you can understand the angst that those that can't attend games have towards TPTB in fixturing games they can't attend.

Another fact is that when Nick Marvin was CEO of the Wildcats he came out and said in an article that the club needed 12000 coming to every game just to break even with the rental of Perth Arena (it was well well over budget so Wildcats being charged for that). So if you're saying that getting 11500 is not gonna kill us but in hearing the exhorbitant rental fees then maybe they are doing their arse!.

I'll also add that whilst yes the Wildcats have taken care of their fans, a ticket to a game still isn't cheap let alone getting any of the merchandise and a cup of cider is $10 and meat pie is $8.50... so it isn't a cheap night out... but I don't see Wildcats changing my $55/seat per game tickets to $20 for morning games ever.

Good luck to the NBL and their ratings but I personally watch every single game of NBL so I don't give a shit who is on FTA and who isn't, 9catch up works great for me.

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Anonymous  
Last year

"Another fact is that when Nick Marvin was CEO of the Wildcats he came out and said in an article that the club needed 12000 coming to every game just to break even with the rental of Perth Arena"

Got a link for that? because it sounds like bull

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Food for thought  
Last year

If they need 11,000 fans through the door to break even, then they probably didn't make the smartest decision in the world playing there. And yeah, it sounds like crap.

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Anonymous  
Last year

Business models change. It wasn't that long ago that Cricket Australia's revenue model was (give or take) 33% tickets, 33% sponsorship, 33% tv rights. The value of TV (and digital) rights has since sky rocketed.

Basketball's financial model is changing. This is a positive as it should provide sustainability.

For the purpose of reference, the Netball agreement is identical to the Basketball agreement. Netball received $7M-$8M revenue from advertising in the first year of their arrangement.

Attendance numbers whilst important will not be the primary commercial consideration moving forward, which is positive.

Viewer numbers whilst important are not the primary concern.

The challenge is what is the value of the advertising during the coverage. Yes higher viewer numbers assist, but so does a positive trajectory. What 9 is providing in cross-promotion is extremely valuable

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koberulz  
Last year

The facts are that the Perth Wildcats memberships renewed in April
They renewed in March.

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paul  
Last year

"The challenge is what is the value of the advertising during the coverage. Yes higher viewer numbers assist, but so does a positive trajectory. What 9 is providing in cross-promotion is extremely valuable."

I think more accurately it's potentially valuable. A good start would be covering the serious cost of producing all games for TV, anything on top of that in the first year is probably a bonus given the lack of viewers and small pool of advertises.

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Anonymous  
Last year

@ food for thought. There is no where else. The Wildcats were deep in the red at challenge with its 4400 seats. Brndat used to write a check just to cover venue hire. The first season at the arena was the first in the black almost since the pec shut.

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J  
Last year

Food for thought my point was that the lag time before the fta ratings becoming profitable for teams could hit the quality of player teams can afford if their bottom line is hit, and that could then affect the fta value if teams are getting worse, but i guess the capacity to understand a timeline is lost on some people...

Year 1 Teams lose money due to bad fta times
Year 2 teams lose money due to bad times, tv deal only breaking even i.e cover production costs
Year 3 teams cant afford your cottons and wares due to loss of income, fta deal pays a marginal cost to teams
Year 4 tv deal was ready to come good but product last year was crap due to lack of good players, tv deal and team quality goes further backwards

Reply #712404 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last year

As has been pointed out earlier, food for thought complained about the league going backwards talent-wise and how teams haven't spent enough, but thinks nothing of a club losing $200k in revenue. Hmmm....

Reply #712405 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last year

Thanks for explaining the timeline, J. Looks like the league is definitely doomed so might as well let Larry know these facts so he can pull the plug.

Reply #712406 | Report this post


J  
Last year

Anon, merely illustrating a point and flaw in someone elses thinking. My opinion, we have to be weary of robbing peter to pay paul with this fta arrangement.

Reply #712407 | Report this post


AD  
Last year

Simple fact is that FTA broadcasts don't pay the bills in the NBL, and never will.
It's not like this is even a particularly great deal. NBL has been given an unpopular slot on their 3rd rate network. It was either NBL, or repeats of Redneck Catfish Noodling.

The claimed figure, which as has been explained, are ticket sales, actually demonstrate how big a problem this is. First, they're not getting enough casual sales. If the Melbourne game had been in the evening, it would have been close to a sellout. So they're missing out on around 1,000~1,500 in casual sales.
Then you have ticket sales of 11,500, yet realistically there's probably no more than 10,000 actually there. That's ~1,500 people who have paid for tickets and STILL can't make it.

Now sometimes I can't make games, and can't always give the seats away in time, it happens, but at worst a couple of times a year. Not enough to make me rethink membership.
That has now changed. Why pay for a season membership, when realistically I only want to attend less than half the games.
It sucks, I am a long-time loyal member, but that's where we're at.

Reply #712409 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last year

NBL viewer numbers need to increase by 50-100 percent to be similar to the A League.

The A leagues current contract is $50+ million per year.

The growth trajectory of the nbl makes it likely that the sport can justify a TV deal that financially underwrites the league in the near future.

That is far more important than a few spectators being unable to attend a game. It may have immediate short term financial implications however LK has proven that he is prepared to ride that turbulent time.

Reply #712411 | Report this post


KB3  
Last year

12- 2pm 30k viewers is an ok number for that time slot on a peripheral channel

Games shown in prime time ( 6 -9 ) on a main channel need to be doing 250k for the TV stations to take note

The NBL highest tv audience in the last 10 years was the first game shown on One HD and that was north of 150k from memory

The only offset for the NBL business is how much Hungry Jacks are pumping in to off set costs and losses. I dont think that number has been disclosed.

Reply #712420 | Report this post


robt  
Last year

bottom line,IMO, is demonstrated popularity from the public, attending and watching (tv etc).

Full stadia should be the priority. The at-game experience is fabulous which, in turn, helps excite the viewing audience, making that a more viable proposition.

The individual clubs should focus on what they can actually influence by going all out to fill their venues. The NBL (organisation) should be allowed to focus on the bigger audience (media). After all, did they not recruit Demitrio (excuse spelling, if wrong)(is he still on the board/staf. Have not heard a word of or from him, ...ever!) from the AFL to do exactly that?

Would consistently full venues not help with acquiring major media contracts? I think they would.

Would we all like both?




Reply #712439 | Report this post


UseTaHoop  
Last year

"NBL viewer numbers need to increase by 50-100 percent to be similar to the A League.

The A leagues current contract is $50+ million per year.“

Any sources for this info??

I would have thought that if the above figures are accurate, the NBL broadcast rights would be worth “something", but obviously less than $50 mill p.a.

I think HJs, MG plus the betting and chemist ads would add to the value. How many willing advertisers would the league need for it to be a viable product on fat tv? Obviously more costly in prime time.

I don't pretend to know the ins and outs of fat tv deals, but if the NBL can bring more advertising revenue and more viewers, it makes it a more valuable fat product.


Reply #712556 | Report this post


UseTaHoop  
Last year

fta tv, not fat tv.

Reply #712558 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last year

HJ's / Chemist Warehiuse et al would be putting in money to the NBL with ad space included with their branding etc

I’d imagine that LK is effectively buying the TV slots with the hope of packaging up ads to sell and create revenue with TV as the carrot

Reply #712569 | Report this post


paul  
Last year

"That is far more important than a few spectators being unable to attend a game. It may have immediate short term financial implications."

I actually think the bigger concern for Perth would be potential long-term implications of losing membership due to the game time and, just as importantly, how it was handled.

Reply #712574 | Report this post


Food for thought  
Last year

"Simple fact is that FTA broadcasts don't pay the bills in the NBL, and never will.
It's not like this is even a particularly great deal. NBL has been given an unpopular slot on their 3rd rate network. It was either NBL, or repeats of Redneck Catfish Noodling.
"

Wow, short sighted. Were you expecting Prime Time on Channel Nine? Cross promotion and the fact that it is affiliated with Nine and given a time slot that it can actually be seen in makes this deal worth it. And yeah, FTA doesn't pay the bills. They're trying to make it pay the bills. The bills weren't really getting paid by filling stadiums alone. What do you want them to do, keep doing what they always did to keep getting what they always got? They have to try new ways of getting revenue, but we can't try anything new here can we? Of course not. And why? Because right now, at this very moment "It doesn't pay the bills". It's like not going to a job interview because that job doesn't pay your bills at the moment. It's lunacy.

"NBL viewer numbers need to increase by 50-100 percent to be similar to the A League.
"

We actually don't know what the NBL viewer numbers on Go are. We know 65 K was the first audience and I haven't been able to find anything solid about the rest.

Reply #712579 | Report this post


koberulz  
Last year

Yeah, as several people have said the repercussions won't truly be felt until membership renewals are due.

The Wildcats don't help themselves by making renewals due in March, either. That's entirely too early for anyone. I remember a few years ago the deadline was late June or early July, which at least gives a decent amount of time for fixtures to be released.

Most members would have renewed not only not expecting weekend morning games, but expecting the vast majority of games to be in the usual Friday night slot.

Reply #712580 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last year

@UseTaHoop this is the current A League agreement. https://www.foxsports.com.au/football/a-league/fox-sports-will-remain-home-of-aleague-until-at-least-2023-after-new-broadcast-deal/news-story/4d82a015c0b7b13e7814c5da51296cbb

Viewer numbers for A league fixtures can be found at www.mediaweek.com.au

Match variations, excluding finals, provides the basis in broad terms of the increase required to achieve an upfront financial investment from Foxsports.

@J the same model in a different sport (netball), that has the same timeslot, same days and same channel produced a ($7M-$8M) return in the first year.

@Foodforthought if that round 1 channel 9 viewer figure is accurate that puts the NBL as being in a very similar viewer figures as the Netball in their initial year.

Collectively if the NBL generates $7M-$8M from the FTA deal this season and Club memberships (all teams) are affected by $1.6M (extremely conservative) the NBL is $5M-$6M ahead.

Naturally the NBL's split of revenue will need to be split with Clubs in some capacity.

Club membership impact in future seasons would be minimal with some foresight. It isn't unreasonable for the Clubs commercial structure to rely less on membership revenue than it has historically. This could be achieved through varying price points, match packaging, corporate partnership valuations.

All in all the TV figures are very positive, given they continue to grow and in comparison to known sports (Netball and A League)

Reply #712601 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last year

Since that first game that got big ratings the average on Go has been closer to 30,000.

Reply #712602 | Report this post


AD  
Last year

At the HEIGHT of its Golden Age in the 1990's, When NBL players were household names, we had double the teams, FTA was the only game in town, and we had major investment and cross-promotion from Channel 10...
they STILL could not make it financially viable.

Even if we by into the infantile notion that "the NBL is better than it's ever been, ever", and that somehow LK can turn a profit on the telecasts,
WTF would you gamble the future of the league on that model?
Especially when it clearly in direct opposition to what LK is trying to establish?
What exactly about the current structure of the league could possible induce you into thinking LK wants a pissant league supported by a few crumbs from Channel nine?

If that were the case, he'd be doing what the AFL does and propping up basket cases in every corner of Australia.

End of the day, if the Hawks fold because they can't sell tickets, we still have a league, and arguably a stronger one. Even if you could get a TV deal that supported the league, you'd risk losing the whole league when it periodically dried up.

Like it not Perf haters, the Wildcats model is the one LK wants. They've proven that if you get attendance high enough, you can pay your own way with no more owner's money being tipped in. The Wildcats have been essentially self sufficient for a few years now. You still need to have the deep pockets, just in case, but that is the sustainable model.

Reply #712604 | Report this post


Luuuc  
Last year

I don't "by" the idea that the Wildcats model is the one LK wants.
Does he want the teams packing out venues? Yes of course he does. But I'm pretty sure that his ideal vision includes the league actually being profitable, which includes being visible so that sponsors want to be involved.

If that were the case, he'd be doing what the AFL does and propping up basket cases in every corner of Australia.

Isn't that exactly what he is doing with the Brisbane Bullets? They're pretty much the GSW Giants of the NBL right now. They don't exist due to local fan demand or because they're a profitable entity, they exist because the league created them for bigger picture, league-wide reasons.

Reply #712639 | Report this post


Luuuc  
Last year

*GWS

Reply #712640 | Report this post


Food for thought  
Last year

"Since that first game that got big ratings the average on Go has been closer to 30,000."

Yeah, this is hogwash. I've emailed Mediaweek and I've emailed TV Tonight and all the various places that usually compile ratings and none of them can actually nail down the 9Go ratings or find them, so I am pretty hesitant to believe a random anonymous account that doesn't name a source over the people whose job it is to know this stuff.

At best, you're confusing the 9Go numbers with the Fox Sports numbers, which have been between 33 (highest) and 26 (lowest) thousand views. And there is no question that it is going to do better on FTA than Fox Sports, even if people flick by by accident.

"At the HEIGHT of its Golden Age in the 1990's, When NBL players were household names, we had double the teams, FTA was the only game in town, and we had major investment and cross-promotion from Channel 10...
they STILL could not make it financially viable."

Umm, it was financially viable. It was doing just fine. Sure, some teams couldn't survive but that's a fact even for the AFL. But it wasn't until TV interest died in the ass around 2000 that the whole thing dropped.

"Even if we by into the infantile notion that "the NBL is better than it's ever been, ever", and that somehow LK can turn a profit on the telecasts,
WTF would you gamble the future of the league on that model?"

AFL is relying mainly on telecasts. Would you say they're "gambling their future"? What a ridiculous thing to say.


"Especially when it clearly in direct opposition to what LK is trying to establish?
What exactly about the current structure of the league could possible induce you into thinking LK wants a pissant league supported by a few crumbs from Channel nine?""

A few crumbs from Channel Nine? You mean potentially tens of millions by the end of the three year deal, vs the LITERALLY NOTHING the league is making at the moment, relying almost entirely on crowds alone? What you forget is that for the past few years the NBL has been getting great crowds, and those great crowds have not led to this sustainability so it's bizarre to me that you think suddenly they will, just because ONE team - Perth - was able to do it, in a city that has a massive arena they can fill.

" Even if you could get a TV deal that supported the league, you'd risk losing the whole league when it periodically dried up."

Risks. They exist. They exist even if we only concentrated on bums on seats. Deal with it. Some big sporting team from another league could pop up in Perth and completely destroy the Wildcats. An asteroid could hit tomorrow.

"sn't that exactly what he is doing with the Brisbane Bullets? They're pretty much the GSW Giants of the NBL right now. They don't exist due to local fan demand or because they're a profitable entity, they exist because the league created them for bigger picture, league-wide reasons. "

Bingo. The sole, and only reason Brisbane exists is for sponsorship dollars and TV opportunities. That is it.

Reply #712646 | Report this post


Perfians  
Last year

We missed a couple of home opens therefore the league should abandon its strategic plan for growth and profitability. LK is wrong. We are experts on long term prosperity eg. the mining boom.
Sincerely,
Perfians

Reply #712654 | Report this post


Perthworld  
Last year

We live on another planet. #Perthworld

Reply #712664 | Report this post


D2.0  
Last year

So pretty much it comes down to those trying to point out problems
vs the "we hate Perf cos it suks" brigade

give it a rest

Reply #712667 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last year

Source for the TV numbers is an employee of the NBL.

Reply #712671 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last year

"Source for the TV numbers is an employee of the NBL."

Yeah, fairly skeptical on that. It rates almost around 30K on Fox Sports so the chances are it is doing about double that or more on FTA.

Reply #712686 | Report this post


Cram  
Last year

"
Yeah, fairly skeptical on that. It rates almost around 30K on Fox Sports so the chances are it is doing about double that or more on FTA."

Based on?

Certainly isn't superior picture quality

Reply #712689 | Report this post


koberulz  
Last year

Wider availability.

Reply #712759 | Report this post


Cram  
Last year

That's a big assumption given those who have foxtel would likely use it given the far greater picture quality. And given we've heard the NBL talk about the 65k in the opening round, but nothing since then, assuming that there "must" be that many viewers simply because more people have access seems a bit of a leap.

Reply #712977 | Report this post


UseTaHoop  
Last year

Wow. Just wow.

Home opens. How many does this really affect?

Fading curtains? Move to Qld to be with like "minded" people.

Food sales/ fans more valuable at 12 pm? The venue probably has a catering contractor, paying “rent” on a lease.

It's potentially more of a problem for visiting interstate teams. Will Conklin have enough elbow room if they fly out after the game? Will there be room for Lamar Patterson’s doggy bag?

So many unanswered questions.

Reply #713094 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last year

"Yeah, fairly skeptical on that. It rates almost around 30K on Fox Sports so the chances are it is doing about double that or more on FTA."

From the same source, the average on Fox Sports is around 20,000 so far this season, up from 14,000 last season. GO average is at 40,000, but take out the 60,000 from the first game and it is closer to 30,000 which is what NBL usually gets on free to air TV.

Reply #713105 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last year

Gees the hypocrisy on here knows no limits.
If this had happened to Adelaide, we'd be able hear Joey screaming from here, plus accusing the NBL of being racist.
It would never happen to Melbourne because LK runs the league, nor to Sydney because they have too much money,
but people love to hate on Perth simply because we've had the cheek to be better than everyone else.

Doesn't matter why people don't like it, fact is they don't,
and if the haters had any shred of credibility they'd admit that they would hate it too.

I can confirm that this is already costing Perth money. Ticket revenue for these games is already over $30k below the average they budgeted.
And that doesn't take into account that the game against Melbourne would have been a blockbuster (requiring the upper level) had it been played in the evening.
Doesn't sound like much, but they anticipate the real shortfall will be around $300k over the season
They are also concerned at the prospect of a major backlash when it comes to renewals.

I can also confirm that they sent a survey to members who did not attend a previous game, and that survey covered almost 1,800 members.

Reply #713180 | Report this post


Perthworld  
Last year

'Cats requested more FTA games. The 9Go! FTA timeslot was TBA, then locked in at 3pm EDT. They rolled the dice and lost.

Reply #713183 | Report this post


Perthworld  
Last year

Oh, and it wasn't long ago Perth had basically half of Friday nights on One as the late timeslot at 9:30PM eastern time suited their schedule (Ten didn't want to show live games at 7:30PM EDT). They won big time with that arrangement. You win some, you lose some. Give and take.

Reply #713185 | Report this post




 

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