Craigieburn and Southern Pen both applies to go up to D1mem but we're told promotion relegation rules apply
Bulleen were trying to go to the new league but were knocked back. Then asked to go SCM and were knocked back.
So yeah clearly the clubs fault SCM looks like a woeful structure. Not
Love a early statement of who is going to win, need to look back on this come July/Aug 2019
All I see as Div 1 Men has a tone of travelling for metro clubs, Latrobe, Shep, the bool.
Div 2 Women looks terrible the quality seen last year made it feel like a league with haves and have nots
SCM with 9 teams should be tight but could see the top 4 breaking away
Div 1 men will be more fun to watch than SCM
NOW the league needs to get those fixtures done earlier help teams out, avoid running that pre-season tournament and instead do something a bit different maybe smaller events in the EAST, WEST NORTH regions
And bring back more articles, news stories, interviews and opinion pieces to ramp up interest and interaction with fans
The fact that big v can't uphold their own rules is the kind of stuff why the SEABL clubs didn’t want to be administered by them.
The rule was supposed to be enforced re country teams one import last year but of course they folded. Shep came up to d1 from d1 with a good core of local guys. If they can’t field a team of locals they should perhaps look at why those good locals who would still be in their 20’s no longer want to play, and address that.
D1Men will be worth watching as Westernport will be super tough, Shepparton will give it a crack if they have 2 better imports and Matty Bartlett, Warrnambool always thereabouts, Melbourne Uni will surprise a few, Bulleen will be out to make a statement, Sunbury with Ish back is going to be tough, the rest will make up numbers.
Country used to get a 2 imports due to lack of locals playing on in the mid/late 20's so many of the country clubs left the comp.
Back in the day the country associations had massive support and good talent but it fell away in the early 2000's but it appears a few are working hard to reverse the trend.
Will Latrobe get two imports? They had two for half of season and didn't seem to make much difference. After they both were let go they became the 'bye’ team in the comp. will they get more locals back on board?
I don’t think two imports is the answer to sustainability, it’s more of a band aid solution.
Camberwell has a stud but no one can say anything else?
D2 news - Craigieburn have their import Smith back for 2 years, Sth Penn went with a perimeter import. Wallan are close to a big signing + an import. Altona will be another step closer and mornington back for some reason.
What players from Waverley, Knox, Eltham, Ringwood and Mt Gambier will we see be available at CM?
I would think these teams may at least upgrade their imports (Mt Gambier players will probably be looking for other gigs).
Both Ringwood and Eltham had quite mature rotations, will they stay with these?
Knox imports, Kaba & McDonald, probably will be looking elsewhere.
I heard Wallan were opening the bank account and going at this season with a big push for promotion, that was the word from the President when I last saw him in September
Coburg have tweaked the squad with rumours that inured import from last year is back and has been firing off in East Coast Summer leagues in the USA, they have also have been given a wage budget (which they didn't have last year) and have spent it wisely with some players making it down the freeway to them.
Ovi Magebor (I have spelt that wrong) is back from college and looks to have all but signed for Eltham, powerful 3 man and would compliment Trevors shuffle offence
what else ......
Be interesting to see if any of the Melb teams go hard at Daly, Thomas, McDaniel, Jamieson, Burdon
Obviously a couple of those guys bare pretty settled in Mount but if they want to keep playing elite level bball they'll need to look at coming to Melbourne.
You'd think the Big V teams stepping up would been keen to add the experience these guys could bring.
Big V last year waited till almost tip off for some of the leagues.
with some of the travel needed for Div 1 you'd hope they would give clubs a heads up.
Forget sorting out that tournament and spend on promotion and fixture organization.
Before someone jumps on me; I know that some of the issues were from clubs not paying fees on time and also hedging bets on placing teams in leagues. Div 2 women had byes after byes because of Keysborough dropping out & teams like Coburg & Sherbrooke should of sat the season out.
'' it's the metro teams who think they need a cut lunch to go 20 mins away lol''
Totally agree, if you plan to travel then you just travel. It suprises me as most of these kids grow up playing VJBL which has parents driving to Geelong & Ballarat on a Friday night after work, all of sudden a Saturday its too hard.
FIXTURES! is a must early for all teams & coaches, helps with planning and promotion of events around them.
Will be interesting to see how CM rosters eventuate. Some teams would have been recruiting heavily in anticipation of entering the new league.
When not accepted some of the planned recruits may not have worked out.
Also we may see some of the better players in CM teams recruited into the likes of Knox/Eltham/Waverley/Ringwood.
Just Googled these guys.
Tanner Samson played D1 college, had a pre draft workout with Denver Nuggets, and then has been playing in the lower level Spanish leagues, seems legit.
Max Barkeley played D2 college 3 years ago, can't see anything since, can he play?
Just looked at film and looks like they are/were both guns. Barkley has potential to be high impact player but like you said I don't see any info on his playing days after his last NCAA season in 2016 so who knows what kind of player he is now or if he’s been sitting on he couch.
As for Tanner Samson has been busy in Spain and looks like the real deal for sure in my opinion... WP lucked out.
From the YouTube/google, Barkeley looked like the more complete player that can create and isn't just a shooter but like OP said he’s also a huge question mark cause there’s no info on his playing career in the last 2 years.
Also I didn’t know Spain lower division was similar to D1/2 in Big v??
Did that Travis do anything else besides shoot 3's though? 30 points per game is impressive. Can Samson do the same? Looking at WP previous record in 2017 they didn't win much games. Seems Luke and Travis got things going out there. Would be nice to see WP back in winning form like last season.
I have heard that McKinnon's imports are:
- Dillon Stith (dominates at SCM)
- Eric Williams
will likely have Ivan and and Tomada back.
Big question is whether Deng Deng returns.
If Deng doesn't return and Maybank is a coach only, then they may struggle with depth.
Dylan Travis best aspects were he's movement without the ball and then when he had the ball he had great skills of both sides of he’s body.
Could catch/shoot, pull up off the dribble or finish at the rim really well which made him extremely hard to slow up.
WP have signed some guns already and will be tough to beat, Bulleen should give them a red hot go this season and Shep and Warrnambool will be there abouts again, look to see Melb Uni troubling teams, heard Keysie again have different roster so hard to judge that club season to season, change players and stadiums too many times to be taken too serious surely.
Hey Greggo, no axe mate, actually played there a few years back and left on my own choice. Just know that it has very little in people helping the club and financially strapped, only works when older players looking for more minutes than they are getting at their current clubs. Every season current players look around for better options but no-one really puts hands out to them. I left and luckily found new club and how good is it to have juniors coming through at a steady place
Keysie are an odd team but they are competitive though so I guess it works. La Trobe on the other hand need to be in Div 2!
Also if Shep get 2 imports again in Div 1 that would be laughable as the league said last year they wouldn't be allowed to this year.
Wasn't Sherbrookes last import like that??
VJBL isn't the basis behind having a Big V Program, but it certainly makes life easier if you have a bigger junior program as they pay entry fees, and those parents own businesses to help sponsor.
Coburg don't have a big junor program, big history small program, neither does Sherbrooke or Warrandyte for that matter.
A few things. Camberwell wouldn't be paying this guy anything. I trained with him a month ago and he will probably be camberwell's 5th best player on the team. He will average 6 points and a couple of rebounds and assists. He is just a long line of dud imports over here ringing every club in every division hoping that someone will sign them up.
On sherbrooke you know the import must be bad if in the article they only mention game highs that he had in a whole season instead of what his averages were.
Imagine a club bucked the trend and paid good money to Aussie Kids, State Level or high prospect kids convinced them to play Div 1 or Div 2 and paid them enough that they had time to practice everyday instead of picking a job or helped with travel costs???
Would they be cheaper than an import??
Would you potentially get more value??
@PersonalFoul I know of a couple clubs attempting to do this, the tough sell is getting a talented kid out of a higher league to play D1 or D2. Most of the time, money doesn't change the perception of the poor standard of basketball (which is true for the bottom half of D2 - the top half are quality teams).
@anon If you have to get a part-time job that effects when you practice then a bit of money can help free you up more to practice.
I know we can pay imports in some cases $20 - 30K per season you could alost split that two ways and get two hopefully quality Aussie Guys that drive, willing to put more into the program, have maybe return from college, etc etc it means they maybe don't have to work during the season.
Good to hear other clubs are trying it.
So let me me rephrase, how many teams worth watching without imports pull big crowds? I see 5 Division two basketball teams listed. Geelong don't have big crowds at all and Sunbury are a bit hot and cold but I can see them being a lot better this year. Whittlesea do a great job but they have an import (Sykes, and he previously played SEABL the year before)
(none) - Geelong Big V has had a regular import before last season and when they promote it, they get some crowd, but more recently it has changed. Now, with the new structure, it will change again and maybe crowds will be drawn to the men and women Big V teams at Bellarine, the Champ Men at Corio Bay and the numerous Youth League teams including Geelong.
'I trained with him a month ago and he will probably be camberwell's 5th best player on the team. He will average 6 points and a couple of rebounds and assists. He is just a long line of dud imports over here ringing every club in every division hoping that someone will sign them up.'
@anonymous..Sounds like sour grapes. Did you get cut??? Just back off.
He's a good bloke who has found himself in Australia for reasons other than bball looking for a game in a sport he loves.
He's not here to be a superstar.
I look forward to watching a game.
^^ Had him training at our club a few months back during last season and can say that while he might not want to be a superstar, I don't anticipate him being much less than one. Kid can flat out play and if we’d had an import spot we would have slotted him in for a game. We even unsuccessfully petitioned for a waiver as he’s currently going through the PR process. If Camberwell indeed got him for free/cheap, they’ve themselves an absolute steal.
Coburg will have an import this year (returns from knee) and despite having a poor stadium for a crowd always seem to gather the loud locals to get in the stands.
North East issue is that they don't have a home venue they play around the region like a travelling circus at times (at its free to get in and nobody turns up)
I feel for Wallan they had a really crap team last season I reckon there will be more noise coming out of the jungle in 2019
Sherbrooke can be in that boat despite the Mountain Men (missed marketing opportunity) having a small community nobody gives a crap
Suprised with Sunbury on this list along with Pakenham.
Melton did a great job during the season promoting double headers with YL games and filled it up at times.
Malou legit superstar, should be in SCM unsure why not?
Can he drag a team of Div 2 players to the play-offs?
What is happening at Broadmeadows & Keilor keen to here how these West Powerhouses are shaping up. Saw a call out for housing for Thunder imports who are they??
It was an open gym session at point cook. There were no try outs.
Like another poster said camberwell didn't go out to find this guy it was suggested to them that hey this bloke is here in australia and wants somewhere to play. Simple as that. He seemed like a good bloke that's true but that has nothing to do with his basketball ability.
Having been a big v player in all divisions except youth league for the past 16 years and still putting up numbers I have seen a lot of players turn up to either training sessions or open scrimmage and there are guys who you can tell are pathetic just by looking at them
No hate just simple comparison.
Sobey played for D1M team last season and averaged 19ppg.
Given Sobey doesn't have the 400 games experience but I would say he is better than Corletto. A statement that says adding Corletto will make them better than most SCM just isn't accurate.
Great signing by WP all the same
No that is not theory.
Simply saying that Seahawks had a current boomer in their lineup last season (for only 9 games) plus an import and they weren't able to win all 9 games.
Adding Corletto (a role player at NBL) to WP is a good signing but claiming that they are now better than most SCM teams is getting a bit excited.
Agreed. Tanner Samson, Barkeley, Corletto, Pakenham's "strong" roster that makes them favorites. I'm sure they can play but WILL they is the question. There are so many variables that many seem to ignore here in a forum that on the court can make or break an import or high-level local.
I don't have anything against WP and totally agree that signing Corletto is great for them and for the league.
The problem I had was the comment that this signing now makes WP better than most SCM teams.
Agree that we won't really know until the season kicks off but the banter gives us something do in the meantime.
Obviously there are contributors that actually know how teams are forming and others that are just trolling looking for a bite.
All will be known soon.
RMIT still no annoumcements on any actual signed players, and the coach they signed 2 weeks ago is now not coaching, so officially no coach yet either. Season approaching fast, you wonder if they'll actually be able to field a team.
Marty Ford and Aron Pantano were at Maryborough CBL a few years back for half a season, not sure they'd be leading a new program.
Can confirm both Aron and Marty were there today at their second tryout. First Coach got fired after the first session....
They have another tryout tomorrow.
Surely all the exisiting "good" players in Vic have been taken up by now? Tryouts for many clubs are done & are already in preseason mode.
Turn up at random bottom feeder team, claim past history that people at said club are none the wiser. Plays sparingly or barely trains, claims long injury list etc. then leaves due to work commitments ways away as people realise the story and the reality may not match up
It's not fair sometimes, Pantano happened to score all his points and dominate leagues in seasons where there are no statistical records easily found, then the few games where stats are online he barely played, poor guy can't catch a break.
All the seasons in Big V with Latrobe City, Melton, Pakenham, Coburg, Altona, SEABL with Albury, QBL with Toowoomba, Gladstone, CBL with Wallan, Maryborough, NZNBL with ??? Why won't anyone believe him how good he actually is? Look out Big V D2 that's all I'll say!
If you gonna be a gun player or at least portray that you are perhaps getting into shape would be a good starting point.
On a serious note thou perhaps if you have disillusions of grandeur and mental health concerns vising https://www.sane.org/ wouldn't be a bad idea.
WP thats a good signing
Derrick not playing anywhere was a bit odd unless he chose to, or not enough money around
Wallan are splashing cash maybe Derrick could go there??
Any import news.
Wallan don't pay anyone I don't know where you get splashing cash from.
The import they get each year is a budget import at best that's why they never produce anything and live in a local home and work at the club.
As for others one guy works for the club also and another is getting a few grand from a sponsorship. There is no big bucks floating around.
I can't believe teams can get sucked in so badly by conmen. Ford has talked in the past about matching up against jordan in college and the most ridiculous stories no one of sane mind would believe yet there are just some poor individuals and clubs that have to find out the hard way. RMIT will not last the season out next year.
The thing I always ask of a so called gun player or coach is if they are so awesome how come they aren't already part of a team for 2019?
Martyn Ford I believe! He has run tryout 2 & 3.
The players at tryouts have been mainly a collection of RMIT's domestic team.... there has been limited interest from RMIT’s Silver winning Uni championship team - as all of them already play at a high level with exisiting clubs.
In terms of "names", I can’t give you any that would be commonly known around the BigV.
RMIT have a pretty rich history of solid Big V and SEABL player in their unigames program. It's pretty amazing none of them were able to be recruited.
As someone mentioned they finished 2nd in the Aus champs this year with a pretty solid team (a lot of Keilor guys amongst others) and over the past 8 years have had some guns going through.
Wonder if they reached out.
Anon^ I think you will find there is enough talent in the Geelong area to cater for Bellarine's teams, however big changes are happening and if they are to submit Big V teams (including YL) they do have to consider quite a number of players and scenarios.
Yes, players have moved, some to Elite League from SCM, rosters are being confirmed and posted online, players are committing to clubs, the SCM at Corio Bay will also have big changes and Bellarine being new kids on the block will have to present their teams as they confirm them like the rest.
One thing is for sure, the whole restructure has shaken things up and we will all have to take a breath at some point to make sense of it all...
Well I hope you did your reference checks on Ford and called the delegates from his previous listed clubs on his resume, just to be sure you're getting what you've been sold.
Also looking forward to to seeing the roster too, I heard a few players you thought would move clubs and play for you ended up staying put, for your sake I hope you have at least a starting 5 with Big V experience.
Jordan Coleman to Hume City will be big for them but maybe even bigger as a blow to Keilor as he was basically the only player on that roster who belonged in that league after the move up to SCM... Any word on who they are they replacing him with??
Kaba will be a big step up from Keilor's big last year^^
I think it's a mixture of a few aspects but I would think imports will go where the money is most of the time and rightfully so since that's what they're here for. Jordan must have been offered more money seeing as though he'd been at Keilor for 3 years, wouldn't have been a character issue?
Import being kept is always money and situation. Small clubs bring in import on a small budget they run clinics live with the coach. BIG club comes along offers more money, better living maybe a car rental and there you go.
In fact I have told coaches in the past don't recruit imports from overseas, just pick up the ones who play well for smaller clubs, that way you know they can compete in the league and aren't bums
Aron Pantano, aka the "Carlos Kaiser" of Australian basketball, looks like being RMITs supposed top recruit, this is after Steve Moresi, the original coach who signed there from Melb Uni, who was bringing a few players left after 1 week, only to be replaced by the honest and trustworthy Martyn Ford, who happens to be Pantanos mate.
The facts are that state level leagues in Aust are really viewed as a stepping stones for a lot of imports.
Whether they are straight from college or have had a few issues in getting their career started, a majority (rightly or wrongly) will accept contracts lower than what they may think they are worth and attempt to get a solid season on their resume.
From there they may look to Europe or, as we have seen, try and move up the leagues in Aust.
Coleman more of a wing, Kaba a stretch 4.
I don't think Kaba would be as successful for Keilor if he is asked to play same role as Coleman.
Likewise if Coleman was asked to play Kaba's role.
I would think that Keilor will have Kaba playing the 4 spot and a new import to play 3 (replacing Coleman)
Be good after all of these years for their men's to finally win a title. Out of the four teams have been provided all of the support and only one of the teams to not win a championship. What’s coming through though after this season and beyond with an ageing list?
Mckinnon - Stith, Tomada, Eric Williams, Deng?
Hawthorn - Barry, Bogart-King, Kirk Smith, +2 imports
Casey - Lemons, Donlan, Polk, Louis, Hobba
Hume - Jeka, Prendergast, Jake Martin, Jordan Coleman, +import
Keilor - Kaba, Long, Simmons, Spencer, +import
Werribee - ?
Corio - ?
Blackburn - Trewella, D'Agostino, Malvaso, imports?
Chelsea - Standerfer, Colin Voss?, Brasser, Riggs
So if these are the main players from each team my predictions would be:
1) Hawthorn - if imports are quality then it is a tough starting group and some depth on bench.
2) McKinnon - If Deng is back then they have a group of 4 players that are as good as any in league. Would have been #1 if Ivan was still there.
3) Hume - Jeka/Martin/Coleman/Import gives them a solid core. Add Prendergast and some exciting young guys and they will be a big improver.
4) Casey - Experience is off the charts. Age of list may mean injuries or issues hanging with teams like McKinnon who will be very athletic.
5) Chelsea - Standerfer will be one of best in league. Big step up for Voss from D2M, will be interesting to see how he adapts. Similar for Brasser/Riggs, big difference between D1 and D2.
6) Keilor - Two solid imports should get them some Ws
7) Werribee - unknown roster
8) Corio - unknown roster
9) Blackburn - if they don't have 2 x solid imports then they may struggle. If they get imports then they could move up to 5-7
Part of a post from the new Corio Bay President and new Committee.
We have already been extremely busy behind the scenes with the signing of two superstar imports, together with our talented local selection believe we have the mix that will deliver on-court success in 2019...more to come later.
When McKinnon when a flag, then we should worry about them. They are the same as Casey....We talk them up, they lose!
While I do agree w/ Ivan and Deng being BIG outs for McKinnon. Would of left Maybank off though, that will get covered.
Where is Ivan going?
Who is staying at Casey? Lemons, Donlan, Ben Louis, Polk??? Hobba???
Introducing the Hobart Huskies.....
The Southern Huskies are delighted to announce the launch of the Hobart Huskies as our development pathway team and also our inclusion into the Victorian-managed Men's and Women’s Senior Elite League (official name yet to be announced) for the inaugural twenty game season in 2019.
Following on from our recent acceptance into the Sal’s NBL in New Zealand, the Senior Elite League is another fantastic pathway for the development of men’s and women’s basketball. The launch of the Hobart Huskies helps to distinguish the team from the one that will be appearing in the Sal’s NBL and to help define the model we have in place for player development.
Our COO Mike Sutton believes that by entering the Senior Elite League we’re helping to ensure Tasmanian basketball talent has a defined pathway to follow towards greatness.
"We couldn’t simply stand by and have the possibility of second-tier high performance basketball not being played for a year in the south of the state," Sutton said. “When the invitation from BTAS arrived we met with a number of key stakeholders in the southern Tasmanian basketball community to ensure buy-in and viability. After careful consideration we couldn’t turn down the opportunity to ensure that development of basketball in the state would continue.”
The Senior Elite League will help to cement the pathway of both men’s and women’s basketball in the state and gives opportunity for fans to watch games outside of the Sal’s NBL season. Games will be played in smaller venues to ensure they are financially viable, but still accessible to fans.
“The basketball landscape in Tasmania is certainly changing for the better and there was no guarantee that it would be the same in 2020,” Sutton said. “With this addition to our pathway we’re able to help shape that future with the assistance of Basketball Tasmania.”
The BTAS Huskies Academy, headed up by Coach Anthony Stewart, will play an important part in the development of players, with the Elite Senior League the first logical step into elite competition before moving on up through the pathway.
With the league ready to tip off in March next year, the high-calibre, invitational competition features elite players from across Victoria and Tasmania. We’ll join existing Tasmanian teams, the North-West Tasmania Thunder men and the Launceston Tornadoes women in the brand new league.
Whittlesea lose young stud Aiden Zeverona who has decided to go play for Diamon Valley YOUTH with the hope of playing mens. This is a big loss to the Pacers and perhaps shows that the club needs to make some staff changes. They have lost many quality young players recently & the turnover a new men's team every year.
Zeverona working with the Elite team also or just Y/L?
Bruno did the same thing last year and ended up back at the pacers during the season.... hear that general feelings are that he can really score but doesn't result in wins. thoughts?
Does anyone know if they have brought their New Zealander guard back? a real young guy who showed some promise.
Chelsea earnt their way to D1 from D2 after winning the championship
Chelsea then waited in D1 until they won the championship to go to SCM
Casey sooked about being in D3 back in the day. Got promoted
Casey made finals once in D2 demanded they go to D1
Casey paid a team to play D1 to get promoted SCM
Casey then felt entitled to the new Premier League
Zeverona is nowhere near an Elite league guard. Will be lucky to sit on the end of the DV Men's bench.
Bruno is the master of empty stats, shops himself around for the right situation (meaning HIS mins and HIS shots) and doesn't stick it out if neither of those things come his way.
Tough reputation to have as a young and talented guard.
Whittlesea - how can a club of that size feature that much turnover with no ability to keep their own talent? From the outside looking in, the culture hasn't seemed like a good one in years.
A danger to be relegated AGAIN in 2020.
What size are they in relation to Coburg? Craigieburn? Broadmeadows?
Again, from the outside looking in the club seems to be trending downwards, and the attitude of someone such as Bruno only playing if he's guaranteed a certain amount of mins kind of sums it up.
Ivory Trae Young and Joe Reid have committed to corio Bay the Big V club,
Young who is a guard has dominated Premier League with the South Adelaide Panthers.
Reid, 26, as a 200cm forward has just finished his season in China where he won the championship and averaged 23 (points) and 12 (rebounds) over there.
Stingrays have also added Ben Scannell, Jacob Pupavac and Kyle Meyer from the Supercats' Division 1 team which is now defunct.
I also hear Eichler, Wiasak, Bow and Errey returning add in Ruiz from YL and I believe Headlam brothers.
Not sure who going to Bellarine, no rumors of signing yet. New hierarchy at both Geelong and Corio probably biggest shake up for the region in 10 years. Geelong will transition to elite with ease. Corio look like they have worked hard to put a decent team on the floor. Bellarine may have teething problems and hiccups.
Appears there is someone jealous and opinionated about Corio Bay's chances in SCM, saying locals are D2 standard when they have all played either D1 or SCM already and those who have played D1 have actually shown to be very credible players tells me something isn't right with your comments aonon.
Two years ago
Agree anon^, CB is on a bit of a rebuild, should be better for it though and may surprise a few this season if they can gel.
Still not much news out of Bellarine, which is a D1 team that will look very different from that which Geelong had on court last season.
Plenty of changes down the Barwon district for the coming basketball winter season, largely due to the structural changes we are all going through, but as they say - a change is as good as a holiday!
Two years ago
I agree. be good to see some action on the Big V Website a little tease, do they struggle for content because the clubs are feeding them enough?
No pre-season tournament be good to hear about some practice games or hidden games that have been going on behind closed doors
Most teams have gone back to training only recently.
Platenik to Keysborough is an interesting one. Especially for a club that insists they don't pay any players ever.
Hume hopefully are big improvers with a new coach who has proven success here and WA. Two imports plus Martin along with good locals will also help.
SCW Sunbury and Southern Pen should be contenders?
Two years ago
Werribee have a game against Coburg Men, I think youth league are also playing them in a weeks time.
anynews on Div 1 men who we think might make the leap up to SCM for 2020
Seems like we had a rush of signings, would love to hear some stuff from coaches and players - even its one week at a time jibes
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An Australian basketball forum covering NBL, WNBL, ABL, Juniors plus NBA, WNBA, NZ, Europe, etc | Forum time is: 11:58 am, Sat 23 Jan 2021 | Posts: 856,268 | Last 7 days: 1,146