koberulz
Earlier this month

The MVP Problem Isn't the System, It's the Fans

For years now people have complained that the MVP voting system is flawed, as the results have been consistently "wrong". This resulted in a change of system this year...and yet again, there's a huge number of fans who think the result is "wrong".

And for the record, I have seen someone put together a game-by-game tally and Bogut won in a landslide ahead of Kay and Long.

Maybe it's time this group of fans accepted that what they see as valuable simply doesn't mesh with what the players and coaches see as valuable.

The NBA system "works" because it's a media vote, so the winner is selected by the same people who have been pushing the narrative all year. Obviously the winner will match the narrative.

In the NBL, the media can push whichever narrative it likes, but the winner is often contrary to that narrative, creating a perception that the "wrong" player won.

It doesn't matter what system is used, as long as the coaches and players who are paid to understand the game, and spend hours watching scouting footage and putting together strategy are voting their opinions will continue to differ from the types of people who go online and complain that the shot clock only reset to 14 after an eight-second violation.

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Anonymous  
Earlier this month

Cool story bro

Reply #736029 | Report this post


Luuuc  
Earlier this month

there's a huge number of fans who think the result is "wrong"


Is there though?

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Anonymous  
Earlier this month

"For the record, I have seen someone put together a game-by-game tally and Bogut won in a landslide ahead of Kay and Long."

Its good that you dismissed the opinions of many fans, but decided that this fan's opinion is irrefutable.

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koberulz  
Earlier this month

Is there though
I can only assume you haven't read the Melbourne-Sydney game thread, which consists almost entirely of "this proves Bogut didn't deserve MVP" (SAMPLE SIZE, PEOPLE!), or literally any Facebook post by the NBL or the Wildcats which mentions Bogut or Cotton in any way.


"For the record, I have seen someone put together a game-by-game tally and Bogut won in a landslide ahead of Kay and Long."

Its good that you dismissed the opinions of many fans, but decided that this fan's opinion is irrefutable.
I'm more likely to consider the opinion of fans who actually put the time in, yes, but mostly it refutes the idea that a game-by-game vote would obviously have given us a different winner.

Kay coming in second also points to one of the issues I have with end-of-season voting; the quieter players get overlooked.

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Luuuc  
Earlier this month

I can only assume you haven't read the Melbourne-Sydney game thread, which consists almost entirely of "this proves Bogut didn't deserve MVP" (SAMPLE SIZE, PEOPLE!), or literally any Facebook post by the NBL or the Wildcats which mentions Bogut or Cotton in any way.

I don't do Facebook, so correct assumption on that.
Any comments based on games outside the qualifying/voting period are utterly worthless.

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Luuuc  
Earlier this month

(... which does back up your point)

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Anonymous  
Earlier this month

"mostly it refutes the idea that a game-by-game vote would obviously have given us a different winner."

In the opinion of the person who put together his votes, which was just his opinion.

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Anonymous  
Earlier this month

You have NBL media acting as player agents and who knows what else. Santamaria is quite the company man for example. Need that separation well defined.

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Anonymous  
Earlier this month

The media didnt vote for MVP, just the shortlist.

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Senator11  
Earlier this month

Cotton was the best player all year using the "eye test". However I'm fine with Bogut winning as he played every game which gives him more opportunity at getting votes. Cotton missed a handful of games and that probably cost him going by the voting system. Same reason why Ware was ahead in votes, I don't think he missed any games either?

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koberulz  
Earlier this month

Cotton was the best player all year using the "eye test". However I'm fine with Bogut winning as he played every game which gives him more opportunity at getting votes. Cotton missed a handful of games and that probably cost him going by the voting system. Same reason why Ware was ahead in votes, I don't think he missed any games either?
I rest my case.

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AngusH  
Earlier this month

The Long stuff really irks me. I think everyone has forgotten about the entire first half of the season where Long was more often than not glued to the bench with foul trouble. Yeah he strung together some impressive performances in the home stretch, but the Breakers still finished outside of contention.

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Anonymous  
Earlier this month

You haven't made a case, kr. You basically wants fans to shut up because one guys opinion proves they should.

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Anonymous  
Earlier this month

I love that you start a thread in an internet forum to complain,

about people complaining in threads on internet forums.

In the past decade or so, the only results I've had any real problem with were Clarke and Bogut.

And even with Clarke over Ennis, we all understood the inherent limitations of the system.

Although I will say that for the same reason I was actually surprised that Cotton won, especially considering how highly Tokoto polled.

"And for the record, I have seen someone put together a game-by-game tally and Bogut won in a landslide ahead of Kay and Long."

Wow, that is epically dumbass even for you.
So you went through and wrote "Bogut Rules" 28 times, and that's your evidence that he's a deserving winner.

The current system is seriously flawed. Perhaps it arrived at the right result, or perhaps not. But that doesn't change that it is fatally exposed to result-driven manipulation.

Whilst I find the televised count tedious, the Brownlow system is at least relatively transparent. Punters can look at a game and decide for themselves whether or not a player deserved maximum votes.

As for the comments in the SF thread, surely even you can understand people's disappointment. There are many, including myself, who believed Bogut was capable (if he stopped coasting) of leading Sydney to a championship. It's not a small sample size. The test of any good player is how they step up when the season is on the line, and Bogut did the opposite.

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Luuuc  
Earlier this month

Whilst I find the televised count tedious, the Brownlow system is at least relatively transparent. Punters can look at a game and decide for themselves whether or not a player deserved maximum votes.

The Brownlow system is pretty bad, but I agree that transparency is one obvious thing it has going for it.
As I've said here previously it's the one main thing I would change with the NBL's MVP system. Show us the votes of every voter. No one who isn't willing to be accountable for their votes should be casting them.

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alexkrad  
Earlier this month

Guys you aren't taking this literally enough, its most VALUABLE player.

Bogut has the most money - so he wins.

Case closed

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Anonymous  
Earlier this month

If kay averaged 2 more blocks and 3 more rebounds would he have won?
That's what bogut did and kay averaged 5 more points by the way

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koberulz  
Earlier this month

The Brownlow system is pretty bad
I don't really follow footy, what's the issue with the Brownlow system? Umpires vote game-by-game don't they?

I did miss the Brownlow-style vote count throughout the night this year. It was particularly amusing last year to see it essentially confirm the rumours that the Wildcats had been voting incorrectly early in the season. But even outside of that, you see guys dominate the whole season, or start strong and fade, or come on strong down the stretch of the season, etc. And I think if they did it like the Brownlow does, rather than the four-round clumps, you could also see some guy just plugging away consistently while others have higher highs but also lower lows, so when the under-the-radar player wins it there's more of an understanding of how.

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Anonymous  
Earlier this month

so you're saying that all kay would have to do is increase one of his season stats by 33% and another by about 700% and he would be in the conversation. righto then.

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Anonymous  
Earlier this month

Was COTY voted the same way (coaches, captains 5-4-3-2-1 etc) as the MVP?

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Trev  
Earlier this month

Cotton has prooved he is most valuable because without him, Wildcats will not make finals. Bogut is valuable but not as much as Cotton. Bogut is also a liability when posted high and can get caught napping on pick n roles, and switches. He is lazy when having to defend up high.

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Anonymous  
Earlier this month

Sydney don't make finals without Bogut. Bogut mvp.

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Anonymous  
Earlier this month

Do Perth/Melbourne make the finals if they didnt have Cotton/Ware?

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koberulz  
Earlier this month

Was COTY voted the same way (coaches, captains 5-4-3-2-1 etc) as the MVP?
3-2-1, but otherwise yes.

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Luuuc  
Earlier this month

I don't really follow footy, what's the issue with the Brownlow system? Umpires vote game-by-game don't they?

They do. Game-by-game I am cool with. Umpires voting is not ideal IMO because they seem to lack feel for who was actually best, and end up defaulting to possession statistics. Plus in the AFL you've got 3 players who receive votes, and the 4th-best player out of 44 is still very influential but gets nada, so that adds an element of randomness to it. IMO the AFL's record of "getting it wrong" is worse than the NBL's. Then there's the whole issue of how midfielder-oriented the winners list is. Even as a fan of Matt Priddis & the Eagles... the guy was all heart, but I still don't understand how he won the 2014 Brownlow. We didn't make the top 8 that year, and he wasn't even our club Best & Fairest that year.


Personally I thought there was a fairly clear top 3 players in the NBL this season. The voting system produced the same 3, so that's already a fair indication that I think it's on the right track. The positioning within the top 3 ... I don't feel like I saw enough of Sydney or Melbourne's games to have enough reasons to argue against the way the results actually fell.
I suspect that not all voters watched all games either, and that Bogut probably also got some reputation-based votes from people looking for tie-breakers, but that's just me speculating. Bottom line, I think he's a worthy winner.

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Anonymous  
Earlier this month

As Luuuuc said, just publish the votes, and I'd be part-way happy.

The problems with the Brownlow are:
The drawn-out call of the entire season, which is a presentation issue, rather than the voting system.
6 votes are given for every game, so a tankfest between two cellar dwellers gets the same votes as a top of the table classic.
Having 3-2-1 when there are 40 players out there, can really skew the results.

I realise its similar to what we had, but I'd be happy to go to a 5-4-3-2-1 vote, by the refs, for every game.

Nothing is perfect, but the beauty of doing it game by game, is that it eliminates the vagueness around saying "Well Cotton was great, but he missed games and had a couple of poor ones coming back" or "Long had a slow start."
And if the votes are published and available by game, its hard for people to dispute. Instead of arguing whether Bogut's worth 5 votes, you look at the games he got 5 votes and see if he dominated

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Senator11  
Earlier this month

Brownlow is fine with me, I do my own count every year, bet on the markets I like and make a killing. It is lopsided towards midfielders these days, but those high clearance players are the ones under the umps nose the most so of course they're going to poll well. A little Brownlow fact, since 2011 the winner has been top 3 for contested possessions that year. Good to know if you're a punter.

And not sure about your rest my case call, I said I was fine with Bogut winning...

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RJL  
Earlier this month

Any one system is never going to satisfy everyone. System aside, I look at Bogut being the difference in Sydney making the finals (and finishing equal first) this season, compared to the previous two seasons. Yes, i know there have been a few personnel changes, but i think that combined with stats and weekly performances are enough to support his selection as MVP. By the same token, i wouldn't have been disappointed if Cotton got the gong. which reinforces my opening statement - no system is ever going to satisfy everyone.

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Anonymous  
Earlier this month


Anonymous
Yesterday

so you're saying that all kay would have to do is increase one of his season stats by 33% and another by about 700% and he would be in the conversation. righto then.


I'm not saying kay should have won I think cotton deserved it but I was asking the question IF kay or anyone else for that matter Boone even frolling whoever averaged bogut's stats would they win it. The answer is no

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Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

My biggest gripe with piling accolades on Bogut is that he's already an arrogant wanker who thinks he's too good for our league. He's already getting paid at least double anyone else in the league, and yet he just coasts through most games. Ok so Gaze is a useless coach, but thats no excuse for Bogut thinking hes the one in charge.

When Bogut first talked about coming home to play, people spaoke about ruining his legacy. Clearly the league had a huge interest in attracting him to play and various deals were done and promises made. - Now suddenly he takes home both the top awards - I cant be the only one that smells a rat. Even I have to admit that Cotton is head & shoulders the best player in this league and yet somehow he averages less than 3 votes?

And yet all the league would need to do to quell the discontent is to publish the votes. Don't even need to put names to them, just give us the break-down by club. Then no need for debate over whether its the system or the fanss

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Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

Come on, tell me again how Bogut deserved MVP

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koberulz  
Two weeks ago

Just making my argument for me, anon.

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Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

I think you should change the thread title to "The MVP Problem Ins't the System, its Bogut"

Regardless of the system, I personally think you could make an argument for several players, and I would not have been surprised if it had been any of them. My personal fave was Ware, but Bogut is equally deserving.

However I feel that what people are reacting to is the cringe factor.
I reckon had the vote gone to Ware, Cotton, Trimble, Kay, Long, or even say Randle, most fans would have made their contrary argument but accepted the verdict.

The 1st problem with Bogut is Bogut himself. He started out as a dickhead and the years in the NBA have only made him worse.

The second problem is that too many annoying fanboys have been talking him up from day one, how fantastic he was going to be for the league, and how he would dominate every game. I dont know how to on this board but I would love to pull up the posts where they were boasting he would average over 20 points.
So now of course they see is victory as justifying all the crap they've been spewing for the last 6 months, and it doesnt. It just doesn't.

Bogut is a deserving winner, but he's not the dominant player and league-saviour his fans have made him out to be

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