Anonymous
Two months ago

Campbell: Hawks should receive more tax

"This season, the difference between the salary floor and salary cap will be about $140,000 and Mat Campbell would like to see a bigger slice of the equalisation pie to help his club get to the cap.

"I believe they should invest more into that area," he said.

"I don't believe it's fair on our region, team, or the NBL to expect our owner to keep stumping up to keep up with the Joneses and keep up with the bigger fish in the league.""

https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2019-07-18/the-challenge-for-financial-equality-in-nbl/11316978?pfmredir=sm

Topic #45514 | Report this topic


FM  
Two months ago

If they want to save money, maybe they should consider competing in NBL1 next season and leave the NBL for the big money guys

Reply #751045 | Report this post


Smith  
Two months ago

Which would leave the NBL with a five team competition. If you think Adelaide, Carins and even NZ to an extent now that they're not backed by the NZ government, aren't in the same position you're not paying attention.

Reply #751047 | Report this post


homer J  
Two months ago

I say let the Hawks pay the Hawks' tax.

I pay the homer tax!

Reply #751049 | Report this post


Bees Wax  
Two months ago

Crying poor when they are getting one of the highest profile players ever payed for by the league is a bit much.

Despite that, the actual amount United claims they are paying V the tax they pay should be public knowledge.

Reply #751068 | Report this post


Smith  
Two months ago

How much is he getting Bees Wax?

Reply #751069 | Report this post


D2.0  
Two months ago

The tax was the quid-pro-quo for teams being able to spend up big. I have no problem with it.

I don't know how you strike a fair balance, in terms of the amount that the poorer teams receive.

Maybe what they should do, is use the tax to subsidise certain items and activities? eg, we'll pay you $X for very hour of community development you do, $Y for every season member you sign, and $Z for each school-kids that gets a free seat.
(all based on pre-agreed targets)
ie Make sure those teams are doing their utmost to actually grow the game and supporter base, rather than just sticking out their hands for welfare.

Reply #751071 | Report this post


FML FM  
Two months ago

FM, don't those rich teams need teams to play against? What good is a league with less teams? What time of excitement would a 6 team league create?

Maybe Brisbane should pull out too, they are still league owned right? What about Tasmania next year?

The NBA have a luxury tax to help the smaller market teams.

NBA also has an amazing TV and Apparel revenue share, but there's a way to go for NBL to get there.

Fact is, there will always be rich and poor teams in sport. If those rich teams want a league to play in, they need teams to compete against. If there's not enough revenue generated by the league from TV etc flowing to the teams, then Luxury tax is the next option.

Teams like Cairns, Wollongong, Adelaide will never be able to compete on the corporate front.

Reply #751072 | Report this post


Reality  
Two months ago

NBL1 or perhaps the NZBL might be the solution for the Hawks

Reply #751074 | Report this post


Smith  
Two months ago

Along with Cairns, Adelaide and NZ Reality?

Reply #751079 | Report this post


Lovebroker  
Two months ago

Almost every other team has to make efforts to improve themselves financially.

The Wildcats moved from Challenge to their new Arena (Perth Arena?), a big risk. They have also done the necessary marketing and community engagement to bring their membership to 10k.

The Sixers have moved to a bigger and better situated stadium, also a big risk. And are now striving to fill the stadium.

Sydney Kings have gambled their own equity to bring in something to bring the crowds in.

Yet Campbell somehow feels he doesn't need to take even incremental steps to improve the Hawks and just ask for more money from the NBL? The Hawks games are far from full, perhaps he should look at that as an alternative source of income?

Heck...even Cairns have the wherewithall to go begging the government and leveraging Nate's heritage to pay his wages.

Furthermore, the equalisation payments were always structured to lift a team up to the floor NOT the Cap itself.

I think it's time to rethink the equalisation payments when teams feel this entitled to hand outs.

Reply #751083 | Report this post


Luuuc  
Two months ago

FWIW I agree with Campbell.
The salary floor is tied to the salary cap, and the cap is tied directly to how much money clubs spent the previous season. So rich clubs spending extra basically forces poorer clubs to spend extra as well.
It's all very well to say that poorer clubs must take control of their financial stability, but when others keep changing where the bar is set how are they supposed to keep up?
That's the whole point of the tax revenues being redistributed, right?
It's not like receiving tax money somehow disincentivises anyone from generating their own revenue as well.

Reply #751084 | Report this post


Smith  
Two months ago

The kings have gambled? On a foreign ownership group? That must boil your blood dickhead, a foreigner buying up our sporting teams!!! Alert the ring of steel!

Reply #751086 | Report this post


AngusH  
Two months ago

I pretty much agree with Campbell, too. I'm OK with rich owners (even ones that also own the league) spending their money on big names, but this whole "luxury tax" thing seems to be getting treated about the same as the Next Stars program - changed on a whim to suit whoever. Gives off a bush league vibe that I don't like, given how well the rest of the league is going in comparison.

Reply #751089 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two months ago

Haven't the kings got new Australian owners and nowhere near as much money spent as previous seasons.

Reply #751091 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two months ago

It's easy to say the Hawks need to get more people to their games but consider the difference in population that they can draw from:-

Sydney 4.6 million
Melbourne 4.4 million
Brisbane 2.2 million
Perth 2 million
Auckland 1.7 million
Adelaide 1.3 million
Wollongong 295,000
Cairns 150,000

Illawarra and Cairns are MUCH smaller markets so it makes sense that they should be given some sort of assistance so I tend to agree with Campbell.

This is the same issue a Tasmanian team is going to face. Unfortunately I can't see it being sustainable without some sort of financial assistance form the league.

Reply #751092 | Report this post


Another Anon  
Two months ago

I'll have you know AngusH....THIS IS NOT A CUPCAKE LEAGUE!

Reply #751093 | Report this post


Lovebroker  
Two months ago

The salary floor is tied to the salary cap, and the cap is tied directly to how much money clubs spent the previous season. So rich clubs spending extra basically forces poorer clubs to spend extra as well. /blockquote>

This would be all well and good if Campbell was begging for money for reach the floor, he isn't, he has his hands reached out so Hawks can spend the Cap.

but when others keep changing where the bar is set how are they supposed to keep up?


The Cap and Floor was introduced as a floating bar, nothing has changed.

Hawks complaining about the cap going up is tantamount to complaining about inflation.

Reply #751095 | Report this post


Smith  
Two months ago

Tantamount.

Reply #751096 | Report this post


Lovebroker  
Two months ago

but this whole "luxury tax" thing seems to be getting treated about the same as the Next Stars program - changed on a whim to suit whoever. Gives off a bush league vibe that I don't like, given how well the rest of the league is going in comparison.


The only 'bush league' part I would subscribe to is in the beginning they said they would release the team salaries with individual names redacted furthermore there would be a panel assessing the values NOT the actual amount paid to the player. The former didn;t happen, the latter is fluffy without any substance.

Other than that the handouts were always about bringing the underclass up to the floor. Campbell is clearly asking for more.

Reply #751098 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two months ago

The Hawks are getting paid to 90% of the cap . That's not a bad start.

Reply #751099 | Report this post


proud  
Two months ago

Geez well done to some posters on here, some great points made here for sure...

So what I'm not understanding about this is Illawarra look absolutely stacked and they will have a fun team to watch so they should be well attended this season BUT is Campbell basically surmising that he's got a team that meets the salary floor but can't pay his players without league assurance because that is a scary way of doing things if he is.

One one hand I'd prefer clubs back themselves by getting good quality players like Illawarra has instead of what Cairns has done but it doesn't sounds sustainable.

Reply #751100 | Report this post


Luuuc  
Two months ago

Hawks complaining about the cap going up is tantamount to complaining about inflation.

Inflation isn't set by 7 other people just deciding what it's going to be, so that's a pretty ordinary comparison. (Inflation also doesn't have a guaranteed minimum rate of increase each year, though I doubt that is what's at play here anyway)

On one hand I'd prefer clubs back themselves by getting good quality players like Illawarra has instead of what Cairns has done but it doesn't sounds sustainable.

It's not just a club backing themselves. It's also a club being required by the rules to spend at least $1.3M on their roster whether they want to or not. Whether they can afford to or not.

Cairns is interesting though. How are they going to reach the salary floor? Harder to attract locals to play in Cairns than to a big city, I'd imagine (and also judging by the aussies they have signed thus far). But it's also harder for them to reach the salary floor using imports due to the exchange rate rule where a spend of AUD $100k only counts as $92k towards their salary floor. The same rule that makes imports more salary cap-friendly to rich teams, makes it more expensive to reach the floor for poor teams.

Reply #751103 | Report this post


Smith  
Two months ago

Handout? Not at all, that would imply that they've done nothing to warrant the payment. When in fact, it's a condition agreed to in contract - you let us increase the salary cap to a level that is largely out of reach for your club/demographic, we provide you with a payment to maintain competitiveness. Except the latter isn't happening due to the league moving the goal posts how they see fit.

Dickhead.

Reply #751109 | Report this post


koberulz  
Two months ago

Citation on the league moving the goalposts? It's been alleged a couple of times in this thread but AFAICT it's working exactly as it was originally supposed to work.

Reply #751115 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two months ago

"Cairns is interesting though. How are they going to reach the salary floor? Harder to attract locals to play in Cairns than to a big city, I'd imagine (and also judging by the aussies they have signed thus far). But it's also harder for them to reach the salary floor using imports due to the exchange rate rule where a spend of AUD $100k only counts as $92k towards their salary floor. The same rule that makes imports more salary cap-friendly to rich teams, makes it more expensive to reach the floor for poor teams."

Isn't having more money to spend on imports not necessarily a bad thing? If you need to reach the salary floor and you can't attract high priced locals, then you could meet it by signing high priced imports? You've quoted $100k but there would be higher quality imports going for more than that.

Reply #751121 | Report this post


koberulz  
Two months ago

We're talking about teams trying to reach the floor, having money to spend comes down to the budget not the cap. Having the league only count $92k towards the salary floor when you spend $100k means more money is coming out of your budget to make the same amount of progress towards the floor.

Reply #751124 | Report this post


proud  
Two months ago

@ 121 it means that if you pay and import $500k for example then you pay $40k that's not going towards the salary cap so that is money that each club has to come up with.

So yes it's more difficult for a club to not make the salary cap floor if they can't attract quality locals

Reply #751135 | Report this post


Lovebroker  
Two months ago

Citation on the league moving the goalposts? It's been alleged a couple of times in this thread but AFAICT it's working exactly as it was originally supposed to work.


There will be no citation because the goalposts haven't moved.

At inception it is pegged at 90% of the Cap.

Today it's 90% of the Cap.

90% - 90% = 0% movement of goalposts.

Reply #751137 | Report this post


KET  
Two months ago

There's a bit of screwed if you do, screwed if you don't about all this.

If you consider the external factors of the past vs now: there's a glut of sports with A-League a hell of a lot more popular than the failed NSL, the rise of AFLW and Big Bash League (men & women).

That is a substantial increase in market competition for your average Joe's hip pocket money, sponsorship dollar and the crucial government dime (read: infrastructure and grass roots funding).

Then there's the globalisation aspect of competing to keep talent on shore v richer Euro clubs - Australia's 26 million population and general GDP is a drop in the ocean compared to greater Europe.

One key advantage the NBL has at the moment is that it is operating more like a business, it is more flexible, nimble and transactional. This allows it to make decisions with huge upside.

The obvious disadvantage occurs if you are a stakeholder (club), you are subject to changing goal posts, conflict of interest and the like.

How this all relates to the Hawks and the cap situation is the question for the moment while we are in that "be nimble phase" probably should be less of "is this what the structure was meant to be" and more of "is this the structure that is right for the league?"

I think LK has done a fair bit for the Hawks, Adelaide etc. Adelaide have had good squads in the recent years under LK, Hawks have a damn good one this year IMO.

However, I do have to agree, a system where half the teams who are the "haves" force the "have nots" to delve into their finances to meet the league requirements is a problem. The tax distribution probably needs to be less of a "pool" for general use/approval and straight into the poorer clubs as matter of system. That might make for a more stable player cap system.

The issue with saying "clubs need to get it together themselves", is #1 If you want to be brutal about it, then Hawks/36ers etc can die and there will be a 4 team league that would lose credibility very quickly; #2 the market in Melbourne is substantially different to the market in Cairns, Illawarra etc.

In respect of that, consider factors:

- Infrastructure in place (You can't move into better digs/better located spots if they don't exist - they did for Perth, Melbourne, Adelaide - none of these clubs paid for a stadium themselves)
- Population (Larger market potentially for members)
- Competition in city with other sports clubs/leagues
- Business driven city (Mel/Syd more business driven than Adelaide for instance, Perth while not broadly a business driven city, have the major resource firms spending up big in Perth including to the local sports sides)
- Government funding (This is determined based on local gov policy/gov of the day, influence of local politicians federally, interaction between local and federal govs etc)

In a simplified formula, i'd argue if we want to spend the amount we are on the talent that is in the league either you can 1) have a 4 team league, or 2) spend a fair bit of $$$ to lift up the other 4 teams. At the end of the day, those factors at the moment present an environment where "getting their shit together" won't assist the bottom 4 clubs in reaching a competitive financial & infrastructure level of the top 4 to be sustainable/survive.

Reply #751143 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two months ago

"We're talking about teams trying to reach the floor, having money to spend comes down to the budget not the cap. Having the league only count $92k towards the salary floor when you spend $100k means more money is coming out of your budget to make the same amount of progress towards the floor."

But you get the tax payments to help you get to the floor.

Reply #751145 | Report this post


Craig  
Two months ago

I don't presume to know but 90% of a cap spend that changes via the average spend from the previous year, does appear to be moving goalposts.

We can all speculate that teams are getting the tax equilisation payments, but we will never know how much they might receive as it doesn't appear to be transparent and things keep changing. It was mentioned elsewhere that teams had to apply and it wasn't a given that they would receive. Again, everything is speculation.

The NBL just needs to keep all the teams and support them all, otherwise it disappears or becomes a 4-5 team comp. Not much fun either way.

Reply #751146 | Report this post


Smith  
Two months ago

Spot on Craig. It's not that difficult for some.

Reply #751148 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two months ago

The NBL expanding this season is a very positive story for basketball and so is a potential move into Tasmania. If it expands at the cost of another team then all that positivity is lost. Actually it would lose more than it gained from the expansion because it would be back to the same number of teams but less cities. So unless LK wants it to eventually become the Victorian Basketball League rather than the National Basketball League he should stop trying to kill off the smaller market teams. There are not enough big market cities in the country to support a decent league.

Reply #751150 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two months ago

Confession, I have not read everything above...but, I'm not really sure who Matty Campbell is campaigning to thru the media.

According to the club person I spoke to recently, the current salary rules are better than the old points system. And all the taxing and minimums and marquees and Next Stars and bottom five and the salary review committee and appeals and all the other rules in the system that Liam Santamaria outlined for NBL.com.au recently are working well. Teams are held accountable and within the league it is all quite transparent.

For outsiders like us (read voyeurs), it is fascinating when the curtain is pulled aside to reveal the inner workings, but we don't really need to know all the internal machinations of the system to enjoy the product.

Reply #751159 | Report this post


D2.0  
Two months ago

It's not so much Moving Goalposts, as it is Shifting Sands.

The floor is set at 90% of teh soft ca, which is set to the average of the PREVIOUS season. So in these rapidly growing years, there has always been a lag.

It's also a bit of mess trying to substantiate your eligibility for the subsidy: Teams must pay the floor, but must be below the floor to qualify. So how does that work? They contract players for less, with the promise they'll get more when the subsidy comes in? Or do they just have to prove to the NBL that they can't afford to budget for the full floor? And if so, what's to stop them inflating other costs to show that?

What Campbell SEEMS to be saying is that the gap between the floor and the average is growing, and they need to lifted closer to the average.
Not sure how much scope for that? By definition, some other teams are also paying less than the average, so they'd have to be lifted also. Not sure there would be enough tax to get everyone up to the (pre-subsidy) average?

Reply #751194 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two months ago

Not sure what everyone is complaining about. Hawks have put together a highly competitive roster this season.

Reply #751235 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Two months ago

I didn't read properly I just thought I would post something irrelevant

Reply #751237 | Report this post




 

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