So what went wrong for the Yanks?
Is it just a case of not having their best players?
Is there too much arrogance and complacency? So they just not value the WC as much as the Olympics?
Was it a timing issue? Too many guys committed to the NBA pre-season?
Or is a symptom of something deeper?
Is the world catching up?
Is it that the best players in the NBA nolonger all play for the US?
Defence is almost non existent in the NBA. This gives the illusion that the NBA players are so amazing and can score so much.
Enter international basketball where everyone plays proper defence and all of a sudden their offensive skills are not so polished.
Also the rest of the world has caught up.
USA played three centres a total of 16 minutes. They don't have a PF in the team. Lost the boards 28-44.
Bit of heroball when they didn’t need it. Turnovers when they could least afford them.
Some of these other teams are battle hardened in intra-continental play, I imagine.
Dave and Makur will answer this for us all, a team full of nba players out. We probably could have lent them Casper and Bryce from the nbl.
And without our core of NBA role / fringe players ~ Patty, delly, Bogut, baynes, ingles, creek the boomers would have lost every single match in this WC. What are you going to say about that ?
I don't mind goulding in the team, he is good. But the rest of nbl guys just suck.
We need a full team of NBA players in 2020 I would say.
"Lack of chemistry, lack of role players, too much hero ball, lack of hunger. Just the usual."
Add lack of team balance and it's pretty much the *inverse* of all the main factors that led to Lemanis's controversial selections. It's surprising that o many people -- including apparently Team USA -- don't realize how important chemistry and running a system is in international tournaments. Sure, elite talent can take you far, but we're at a stage in world basketball that team cohesion at both ends of the floor is what gives you the ultimate edge.
Simple really. The NBA is about entertaining the simpletons and FIBA ball is true basketball. You can't take as many steps as you want, you won't be whistled for breathing on a "superstar" and it goes on.
Gave up watching NBA a few years back. It's so far removed from the actual sport now it is ridiculous. FIBA ball craps all over it.
As others have said illegal defence, superstar calls and the travel rule is the real difference. Ball movement is key in the FIBA game. 2 man game is the NBA offence.
The NBA court is barely different to FIBA not sure that makes much difference.
The cross court call at the end of the game just typified how under prepared this team was for the international game/rules.
In fairness, I'm not sure if any team has their BEST side out there (from a pure talent perspective).
Would be interesting to see if USA basketball could get the top EuroLeague American players to commit to Team USA. There's a few guys that are on NBA type money that simply choose to play in Europe instead. They would be able to play for the US during the FIBA qualification windows and then compete for a spot on the final WC team and help that transition for the NBA players.
Things aren't going to end well when you put Barnes at C against Gobert. Tatum and Kuzma both injured too. It's like if the Boomers went into the World Cup with a starting lineup of:
PG - Cadee
SG - Drmic
SF - McCarron
PF - Moller
C - Vague
Kemba said it best in the post interview, "we gave up our summer for this" (said in a positive way. The US media used to criticise their players for not playing for the country, it's just not as important for them any more.
And lol at comments that FIBA ball shits on NBA.
Until the Chinese league and the NBA start pulling their rules back into line with FIBA, you would expect their countries to always have some disadvantages in FIBA competitions. At least the US has their experience, athleticism, height and skill to help them get deep into the competitions.
Sadly, I suspect FIBA will continue to evolve towards something like the NBA rather than vice-versa.
As long as FIBA stays away from illegal defence, the international game will stay 'pure' - to me that's the critical reason why NBA players struggle when they play FIBA comps.
The interesting thing with Team USA is you can find ways to criticise the players that were there and lost this one game, but they were at least the guys that showed up when everyone else bailed.
How much is on Pop for not getting the team they had through this game? Were their centres injured?
Question is should we (the NBL) be following FIBA rules or NBA rules.
By the sounds of things most our players want to get into the NBA and with so few FIBA competitions every 4 years, and if we stick to Oceania or even Asia the qualification route being quite easy. Might be better to be playing under NBA rules.
Also those bagging the NBA need to re consider.
The NBA wants a more uptempo game and that's what they get from their rule differentiations.
It's led to less bigs and opening up the court even more.
The fact the best C's in the game are Internationals is also quite interesting. Not sure why America hasn't been able to find their equivalents.
(Embiid Jokic Gobert Towns Gasol)
Davis being a PF obviously :-p
USA crumbled so badly in the last minute or two, with missed free throws, getting blocked multiple times by Gobert, an ugly turnover or two. I think that speaks to an issue with the roster composition- a lack of experience and a lack of leaders. They didn't have anyone to steady the ship when it was sinking. Mitchell was sublime, but even he went quiet late. And it wasn’t just a basketball thing- they crumbled under pressure. That’s between the ears.
I hope for Pop’s sake that Turner, Plumlee and Lopez were injured. I hope they come out and say it in the press- not as an excuse, but to save some face for Pop. Why persist with playing 6’7 small forwards at Centre, when one of the NBA’s best Centres is destroying you!?
Having said all that, I’m not surprised. France is a very good team and, if I put Boomers bias aside, deserve slight favouritism for the Gold medal. They have everything covered- Gobert controlling the air and the rim, De Colo and Fournier with scoring, Batum doing a bit of everything, and a bunch of honest role players around them. They have all the ingredients to win Gold. So do Spain and Australia, and to a lesser degree Argentina, but I think France’s performances have, if we’re to be honest, been slightly more consistently good so far over this World Cup. They will take some beating. Let’s hope the Boomers can do it again!
It looked like pop got the shits with Turner on his third foul which was a stupid foul and never got him back on. Coaches have been known to do that.
If France do win the World Cup they would be the first country to hold both the basketball and football world cups at the same time, quite an achievement if they get it done. Even a medal would be outstanding to be in the top echelon of teams in the two biggest World Cup tournaments.
On the rule differences, I don't have a preference for FIBA rules to NBA rules. More variances around what defences can do. It’s more complex, and means teams rely more on teamwork and fundamental basketball skills, and less on athleticism and one-on-one play.
Look at Giannis- MVP of the NBA. At the world cup just another good player. Didn’t dominate. It’s not hard to work out why- FIBA rules mean his primary advantages (Athleticism, size and one on one play) are less advantageous.
I understand why the NBA rules are such. They’re trying to make it as entertaining as possible, and create an environment where players can showcase their athleticism. More defensive restrictions, a bigger court and more spacing are designed to do that- create individual battles, let the athletes go to work.
In some ways, the NBL might even be better off adopting NBA rules. As mentioned above, it might help the pathways of a guy like Creek- who now has to spend a year in different rules in the NBL, when he wants to get back to the NBA.
But for me, I like seeing the extra teamwork, passing, and seeing teams try different defences in the international rules. Equally, the NBA is entertaining and I enjoy that too.
LV the lack of an illegal defence rule in the international game makes the game more varied. Requires more varied skill set. It doesn't stop our players being able to learn the skills required by the NBA just means they need them and some.
Last I check the NBA court is about 50cms wider than every where else in the world. I don’t think that makes the difference people claim it does.
From memory, other than rule interpretation differences and the 48 vs 40 min game thing, these are the only differences in the rules themselves:
- NBA is 94*50 foot, FIBA is 92*49. So the court is 2% bigger. 2 feet doesn't sound like much, but I reckon it makes a difference.
- Longer 3 point line. Creates more spacing.
- Illegal 3 second Defense rule in the NBA.
As far as I'm aware, that's it?
I don't think one style is better than another- it’s about taste and preference. FIBA and NBA are two different games. Yes, it’s all basketball, but it’s not like soccer where the rules are identical the world over (as far as I’m aware?).
You have a guy like Campazzo who is a freak basketball player. A magician who has the ball on a string. But he’s 5’11 and only average speed, so he wouldn’t survive in the NBA where he’d have to play one on one D vs guys who are far quicker and taller. Then you have a guy like Giannis who dominates the NBA but is just a good player in FIBA ball, because the D can help much more effectively.
In FIBA ball, the gap between Giannis and Campazzo is much smaller - Giannis is still better but both are stars. Campazzo has won a couple of Euroleague titles.
In the NBA, Giannis is the MVP and Campazzo wouldn’t get a game.
I enjoy watching both styles. If I had to pick one, I’d probably go with FIBA ball- less restrictions feels less contrived. More freedom for the D to do what it wants, more variance, more complexity. On a philosophical level, I prefer teamwork more than individualism and I think the FIBA rules encourage that.
And yeah, obviously Campazzo has to play one on one D in FIBA too, but I mean, if he gets beaten off the dribble in FIBA, then there's more likely to be a big guy waiting to help under the hoop. And it's harder in FIBA ball to post him up and expose his lack of size that way.
The Ballmus says Oh FFS they just got beat by a better team. Why can't we get through our think skulls that basketball is a world game and you can be good at it even if your aren't american ?!?
This has happened before and will hopefully wake the Anericans up again that the world is good too and they can't send their third or fourth string team or they will get pantsed.
Nostraballmus for one predicted they wouldn't medal weeks ago. Nostaballmus knows.
Want to expand?
Also I think people should realise how good Gobert is. He's DPOY & All NBA player last year. And was the best player on the court in that game.
There's only 4 ALL NBA players in the WC.
Giannis Jokic Gobert Walker.
Only one man standing now. France are going to be tough to beat again .
Yeah NBA is all about entertainment and yes spacing but I don't enjoy seeing a pass to an open man who misses it and all his team mates run away. Crashing boards in the NBA seems like a lost art or atleast from American players (remember how they reacted to Delly for being 'too physical'.
NBA is a sports entertainment product (almost like pro wrestling) where you have a couple of good seasons and all of a sudden you're a future hall of famer and it's all about an individuals legacy... what a load of shit.
I don't blame any of the players that came to this tournament but they do feel a bit precious and really needed a blue collar player or two that takes no backward step. (I can't believe I'm saying this but) they also missed Carmelo Anthony, he's been a great player for Team USA for a long time and he seems to adapt to FIBA rules better than Tatum for example.
I thought the story of this tournament would be how easy a draw China got and yet the didn't get out of the group stage but this is bigger and I really hope that this means that basketball around the world gets a lift as it doesn't feel like it's a sport dominated by a single team anymore (like rugby with the All Blacks).
I think the best result for basketball would be a mid point- USA brings a few of their absolute superstars, and then makes it to the semis at a minimum, but has competitive matches. I don't think the results in 2014 or 2019 are great for the game globally.
In the 2014 world cup, USA was so dominant it was boring. And gives ammunition to people who say "International ball sucks. Whats the point, the USA is too good"
On the other hand, right now in 2019 the vibe is “Well USA only brought their C team” and the casual fans won’t pay as much attention now that the USA, Giannis and Serbia are all gone.
Yeah NBA is all about entertainment and yes spacing but I don't enjoy seeing a pass to an open man who misses it and all his team mates run away. Crashing boards in the NBA seems like a lost art or atleast from American players (remember how they reacted to Delly for being 'too physical'.Don't analytics say very specific things about offensive rebounds? I know that years and years ago, even NBL teams often had team-wide rules about offensive boards - e.g., if you play position X, Y or Z and aren't an absolute lock to get that rebound, get back on D or you will get ripped off the court.
Coaches and students of the game might know more about NBA level, but I've seen a few discussions around about offensive boards that seem quite polarising.
I like the IDEA of the defensive rule, although not sure about 3 seconds, but the problem is that the offensive rule is inconsistently applied as it is. Unless you have an extra ref at each end just watching the paint, there will always be troubles.
As a general comment, top level American sport is all the same, its geared towards the spectacular.
I honestly hope that heads roll in the American Camp Simply because I don't want to see a pervasive "who cares" attitude.
Koberulz no it wouldn't have. The NBA has a specific rule for the last two minutes making what they did legal.The rule isn't that there's no backcourt violation in the last two minutes, it's that you're allowed to inbound into the backcourt after advancing the ball with a timeout. They'd already had their after-timeout inbound and it'd been deflected back out of bounds.
If France do win the World Cup they would be the first country to hold both the basketball and football world cups at the same time, quite an achievement if they get it done.
I hadn't thought of it in this way but you're right - France holding both would be the ultimate achievement in sports.
A message for hoops.com.au's most popular World Cup troll:
"In six World Cups (née World Championships) with NBA players, the United States has now lost as many tournaments as it has won. Gold medals in 1994, 2010, and 2014 sit alongside disappointing finishes in 2002, 2006, and now 2019."
Tatum yes, Kuzma maybe. The US would have been a different team even if just the guys who went into camp had made it to China. Add Lowry, De'Aron Fox and Marvin Bagley to this group and they'd be better. Trae Young, Tatum and Kuzma would have given them a ton more shooting.
But everyone else deals with injury withdrawals at major tournaments, it's just that the US is used to having the depth that no matter who they lose they can survive it. This group was already so far off their best that they didn't have that margin for error.
"Paul you dumb ass, the 2002 USA team was no where near it's best squad just like this 2019 squad. "
Yet it was full of NBA players, including nearly entirely, if not all, starters. Remember, your original argument is about NBA talent being so superior to local inferior leagues. That NBL players are trash. By the way, the 4th placed team that year -- placing above USA -- was full of NZ NBL players (with their only NBA player playing just 3 games).
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