Kay was good defensively most games, but offensively poor for most. He had a great game today.
Maker and bolden can play with energy, but can they sustain it for a whole tournament.
Landale was topsy turvy also. Cooks versatility might give him a shot, although he was terrible at summer league.
Cooks is a team player and as well as Creek has done Cook has more offensive weapons. Summer league is not a good place to judge a player as it's all me first and Cook is a team player. I think there might be a bit turning of the guard, some of our older players are looking just that.
No idea. I can't wait to get Broekhoff back in there. He would have made a big difference this year. Simmons obviously. I'm not against the idea of Cotton being in the mix if he is eligible. Exum I am not sold on yet, but we could really use a someone we can throw in as a backcourt stopper and he might be that guy.
Plenty of spots in the air for me given there are 3 easy outs and another 3 fringe guys who proved they are not certainties but are capable of contributing.
Our best 12 based on talent imo would be:
However Kay/Creek/Goulding have definitely earned themselves some points this world cup. Wouldn't be surprised if 1-3 of then made it in. Honestly they probably deserve it of they did.
More ball movement with simmons, Kay ain't catching lobs.
Bolden and Maker can finsh above the ring, somtoo cooks.
You cant lob it to Kay and creek.ntge are hustlers with no real offensive skill, they can’t really shoot or handle the ball.
If Maker, cooks or bolden prove themselves on defense, there in.
Simmons or Delly throwing lobs to Baynes, Bogut, Cooks, Bolden, Maker or
Then you have them kickin it to shooters in mills, cotton and Broekhoff.
Bolden and Maker can also stretch the fooor unlike creek. Kay not a great 3 point shooter either.
20 player squad
Baynes Maker Bogut Kay
Simmons Bolden Landale Motum
Ingles Cooks Adel Creek
Mills Broekhoff Goulding Green
Delladova Exum Cotton McDowell-White
Kay was really solid this world cup.
Only the 1 bad game vs France(Batum)
He can go with any traditional PF but doesn't have the agility to match up with the SF playing PF.
But doubt he makes the world cup but definitely possible. I think he did himself a lot of favors this world cup.
Depends what position they play Simmons and who's missing (injuries / don't care). And how players develop and age over the next year.
Given that this tournament has been very much about mental toughness as well as skills, which is where the Boomers have excelled, why would the Olympics be any different? In other words, you need guys who will knuckle down and do whatever is needed to get the team over the line. This means that we will still need guys LIKE Kay and Creek even if not Kay or Creek.
I think one of the reasons we've done so well this WC is that we haven’t been as distracted by refereeing as in the past, when we’d lose focus too easily.
This is one of my reservations about youngsters like Simmons, Bolden, Adel, etc. Are they mentally tough enough to knuckle down and get the job done at both ends, or will they spend most of their time complaining about the refs and be distracted by every tiggy touch so that their offense goes to shit, and end up being unplayable at the end of the bench?
The current team,would be smashed by 20 every game in Tokyo.
Everyone will bring therebig guns.
We need more size, more speed, more athleticism which we have.
The only question is mental,fortitude and defensive capability of those,players.
There were hardly any good pfs in this tournament.
Baynes had the tough assignments, not Kay or Landale. I think both the latter could lose there place.
Kay is pretty good defensively and Landale offensively. We need a pf capable of giving 10-15 points a game consistently like every other position who can also play Kay level defense but also stretch the floor.
My 12 for Olympics would be:
Simmonds and Ingles could be point forwards.
I think this lineup gives us size,athleticism and shooting and there is no-one is not able to compete.
Up to coach to make it work but core is still there from this years success.
Nostraballmus asks not who the players will be in 2020, but suggests we should look at the coaching team.
In Lemanis, Longley, Weaver, Caporn and Patrick we have:
Aussie with NBL experience and international experience, no medals (yet)
Aussie with NBA playing experience, limited coaching
Americans with college and sub-elite pro experience
Aussies with college and junior coaching experience
Nothing non Aussie or American in sight
They've done good but none have won anything internationally
Nostraballmus suggests we may consider some diversity in the team ? A proven international medal winner as an assistant perhaps maybe ? An expert on European and South American styles and players ? An older mentor ? maybe not even as an assistant or coach but as a technical advisor ?
Ettore Messina ? (although hasn't won internationally, granted)
Jonas Kauzlauskas ?
Aleksander Petrovic ?
Ruben Magnano ?
Djordjevic may need a job now
Nostraballmus is just thinkin but again, u know he's right
The biggest question of the coaches is why haven't they cleaned up the turnovers? It ultimately killed us, even if some dubious calls didn’t help along the way. Some of those passes should have never being thrown.
Kay is just a smart basketballer. Defensively and on the glass he is elite, possibly ahead of all other suggested pf’s. Offensively, he doesn’t need to be elite as a scorer and as a post up threat, look who is around him! What he does do better than possibly most pf’s is make the right read to get a cheap and easy basket. If you re watch most games, the commentators were busy raving about the great pass, but never highlighting the fact he has managed to make the right read at the right time to end up wide open! Under the basket.
Simmons would be your pg right? I would almost think he steps in for one of our extra nbl guards. Goulding has also done himself a heap of favours, i was surprised he did not get destroyed defensively and offensively I thought he played really rather well for the most part.
I couldn't see Simmons stepping in as PG straight away, would be too much to expect him to run this system straight off the bat. I reckon he will be used like Bogut in this system where his passing comes to the fore and he isn't too far from the basket to make quick moves.
Re turnovers, up until yesterday there were a lot of aggressive turnovers, but we had a 1.75 assist-to-turnover ratio coming into the game which is very good.
Against Spain there were a lot of flustered and tired turnovers where we lacked poise, so there wasn't the risk and reward as per previous games, Rio etc. To beat France, we simply need to look after the ball well, and I think part of that is getting it into Bogut's hands more. That was the biggest mistake late in the SF.
PG/PF 6'10 Simmons (over 6’4 Dellavedova)
SG/PG 6’0 Mills (same)
SF/SG 6’8 Ingles (same)
PF/C 7’1 Maker (over 6’11 Landale)
C 6’10 Baynes (same)
PG 6’4 Dellavedova (over 6’3 Sobey)
SG/PG 6’1 Cotton (over 6’4 Goulding)
SF 6’7 Broekhoff (over 6’5 Creek)
PF/C 6’10 Bolden (over 6’9 Kay)
C 7’0 Bogut (same)
PG/SF 6’6 Exum (over 6’6 Gliddon)
PF/C 6’11 Landale (over 6’9 Barlow)
SG 6’4 Goulding - injury to any guard
SF/PF 6’8 Cooks - injury to any forward or centre.
We shall see, but bolden offers so much more. If you look at what he did in Serbia, we need that bolden. Few minutes for philly and everyone has gone off him. With his recent spat I can see why so many have jumped off the wagon.
Kay's 7pts 5 rbds plus really good defense a game is not enough in 20 mins for me. We will know more,after the season.
Kay's contribution isn't about stats, it's about doing the things that allow the stars to do their thing, and if you listen to Luc Longley (a guy who would know a thing or two about that), Kay is excellent at it.
Bolden, on the other hand, is a work in progress on that front, particularly in the Boomers' system. The veteran players are also very peeved at him, they sacrifice big time to represent their country and have for a long time, so Bolden's selfishness does not sit well and will make it harder for him to get back in next year.
Beyond that, assuming he matures, he should become a massive contributor for the national team with his all-around ability.
The camp will no doubt start at about 20 and get reduced to maybe 16, then 12.
I would like to see the nbl guys get a lot of match minutes in friendlies before Tokyo.
Goulding, Creek, Kay etc to get a better idea with more minutes played.
Hopefully they scedule a whole bunch over the next year. Be good to get some euro guys if possible also.
We need a new coach. New style, Lemanis has had his chance and can't get the job done. Too predictable, too dependent on too few. Bevo currently doesn't have a coaching gig, make him the Full Time Boomers coach and give him a consultancy position at CoE
"We need a new coach. New style, Lemanis has had his chance and can't get the job done. Too predictable, too dependent on too few. "
It's seems to be anons and Dave/Makur repeating this. Vocal minority? Or all the same person?
Lemanis led Australia to their best Olympic record and then led them to their best WC result ever. The system has been responsible for a large part of this success. It also offers such continuity that players like Kay can seamlessly come in and be real contributors.
We still have players like Broekhoff and Exum to add who know the system well. Concerns might be with Maker, who has only one window under his belt, and Simmons and Cooks, who have been to just one training camp.
So close, yet so far. Obviously we are within grasp of our first medal but there is a change somewhere that is necessary to realize the goal.
I think the Europeans have an edge because they're more used to playing big, meaningful games. Their warm up games are among eachother, and ours are with Asian nobodies.
But fact of the matter is, we're getting dangerously late with this core group. It's sure to make big changes after the coming Olympics. The time is NOW for Australian basketball. We may be on a pretty big rebuild in just a year's time.
Do we replace Lemanis? Well, is it better the devil you know? We know Lemanis will get us 'around the mark' but we don't know that he will get us the medal. We also know that we should have better talent stocks coming into Tokyo. We don't know what a Bevo or Gleeson will do with the team, and imposing new systems on these players in a short time frame may be recipe for disaster.
But having said that, all the sets and structures meant absolutely NOTHING when the game was on the line. And all too often it was brilliance from Patty Mills that bailed us out. At the end of the tournament we absolutely capitulated. Tired legs are one thing, but it was our execution and brains that lost us the game.
For me, watching the basketball is fantastic. I truly care about the future success of this team. It guts me to see them suffer. It sucks that for some of these guys, this will be the last opportunity they ever have to win a medal for their country. The pride, dedication and love they have for representing this country is unquestionable. So when we're being critical of the team, we should keep in mind those guys who put their very souls out there on the court to represent us to the world. For that every single person on this team has been absolutely incredible. They care deeply about this team and basketball in this country. We may not have the luxury of players with this character after these guys pass on the baton. A thanks is deserved for that.
For the core group - Delly, Patty, Ingles, Baynes, Bogut - Tokyo will be the last roll of the dice. After this we have to have a changing of the guard. A new identity. There is a lot of uncertainty moving forward. We could only dream that our next generation buys in the way these guys do.
But looking ahead, questions need to be asked about team selection, coaching, and all of that. After Tokyo we're a rebuilding team again. And I do fear that fourth will once again be our ceiling
I think the Europeans have an edge because they're more used to playing big, meaningful games. Their warm up games are among eachother, and ours are with Asian nobodies.
Exactly right. Also important is that Euroleague-calibre teams pay very well, allowing guys to play there rather than the NBA. European leagues take breaks for FIBA qualifiers. NBA takes breaks for no one, so it's rare for us to have our real team together to prepare with.
It's a handicap, and it's not going to change. We just need to deal with that.
The best consolation we can hope for is for the standard of the NBL to keep increasing.
Seebohm as coach, the guy works on the fundamentals, the 1%ers, something that is lacking from the boomers.
He's not going to get into you but he’s very direct, cool and collected. One of the assistants can provide the motivation.
He’s young and a lot different to most of the current coaches in the aus setup.
As left field as it is, he would be my choice.
This was clearly the best result ever for Australia in a major tournament.
I don't mean to downplay 4th place in the Olympics, but 4th in the Olympics is far easier than the World Cup. Those 4th places have given us a false idea of Australia's place in world basketball.
Think about it: the Olympics is just 12 teams.
- This includes affirmative action places for Africa and Asia, which we clearly should be superior to. So top 10 is almost guaranteed.
- Then there is a home team addition, which in the case of Tokyo, should be another low ranked team. Now top 9 is easy for all teams except Africa/Asia.
- So to make the final 8, when the real tournament begins, requires just one European/American/Oceania team to be eliminated in the group phase. Compare that to this world cup that was a serious challenge to proceed past the first round, then required good previous results and games against quality opposition to proceed past the 2nd round into the elimination games.
To go final 4 in the Olympics requires one win in an elimination game after, as expected, Australia gets through the group phase. That's one win, possibly an upset, to go final 4.
The pool of quality teams in the World Cup is far larger than the Olympics. Basketball has also grown around the world, so there are now more quality teams to contend with. To get into that top 8 is a far greater challenge in the World Cup. Once there, as we've seen in this World Cup, those quality teams can beat anyone on any given night. Starting 6-0 in this WC was an incredible performance.
Just another poster
It is. especially considering all the drama they had to go through just to get here. All the players that pulled out, the double group of death, the Simmons drama, the Cooks injury and then the Bolden walkout. Shows just how much character they have, just a shame they don't have anything to show for it.
Bolden, Maker and Motum could challenge Kay or Landale, but I was super impressed with Kay's world cup efforts as a role playing glue guy. If Cotton naturalises then he could challenge Goulding.
Adel and Cooks in the mix. Josh Green? Isaac Humphries? A year is a long time.
The Lemanis system breaks down under any kind of pressure. We needed massive individual games all tournament long to progress. Every time the system started to falter (usually in the third quarter once the opposition coach made adjustments) we only got back into the game through one of our guys going off (Delly Vs Canada, Ingles Vs Senegal, Baynes Vs France, Patty every other time).
In the last two major tournaments we've played 4 games that could have clinched a medal and are 0-4. Importantly, two of those games were against sides that we'd already beaten earlier in the tournament. This shows Lemanis simply cannot make adjustments to match the world's best coaches.
Yes the results overall have been good, but we've also had the most talent ever, aside from maybe 2000 and achieved the same result there.
Lemanis took 3 guys to the tournament who were clearly never trusted to play in any circumstance when those spots could have been used for X factors to throw in when things went against the plan - Adel, Motum.
You can be a good coach and still not be the right guy to take the team to the next level. Think of GSW sacking Mark Jackson when they were a good team and then becoming a GREAT team.
Landale got caught out defensively in the four spot, he's played five his whole career, it will be interesting to see where he gets played in Lithuania. His offensive game was great but by tournament end it was pick your poison with him with great offence and poor defence. Depending on how he goes and where they play him in Lithuania will make the decision on if he’s a certainty for Olympics.
"This shows Lemanis simply cannot make adjustments to match the world's best coaches."
Bogut said one of the things he really likes about this team is the way they are able to make adjustments. The reality is with back-to-back final four efforts Lemanis is one of the world's best international coaches at the moment.
The final four had Scariolo, Hernandez, Collet and Lemanis. In Rio it was Krzyzewski, Djordevic, Scariolo and Lemanis. That's elite company.
Really, in two final four games against Spain, it was a toss of the coin whether we beat them. Since 2006, Spain are 16-6 in medal round games at Olympics, WCs and Eurobasket. Take the USA out of that equation and they are 16-3.
If you look at the past decade in international basketball, apart from the USA, the heavyweights are Spain, France and Serbia. These are the teams that regularly medal in Eurobasket, Olympics and World Cups.
We've lost two coin tosses against Spain, both costing us a medal. We’re 2-1 recently against France- a big win in Rio, then two super tight games in this world cup, one going each way. In the first, the scores were tied 17 times and in the second it went down to the last minute.
We beat Serbia comfortably in Rio, and then lost the semi final- which was the single terrible game the Boomers have played across the entire 2016 Olympics and 2019 World Cup.
Lithuania is another basketball heavyweight- Boomers smashed them in Rio and beat them in a close match at the World Cup.
Boomers are unlucky to have missed some silverware. They’ve consistently matched it with the greatest basketball nations, and only missed medals after losing the tightest of matches that could’ve gone either way.
Sacking Lemanis would be a dumb move. He has runs on the board with this group. Re-assess after Rio, and choose someone new to take the new generation forward.
"And what about the complete out coaching against Serbia in Rio and France last night?"
Re Serbia, when you get smashed by 26 points it's on the players, not the coach. Our guys just didn't show that night unfortunately.
Last night's is an interesting one re coaching. The Boomers got 15 in front, was that because of good adjustments from the last game or just the players executing well defensively? I would say the coaching error was nothing to do with tactics in this game, but not giving Ingles, Mills and Delly more rest earlier in the tournament.
Apart from the results though, from a pure analysis point of view I'm impressed with Lemanis.
This group of players has some weaknesses:
- Lacks elite one on one scorers.
- Lacks playmaking and offensive creativity.
- Lacks athleticism.
Given those weaknesses, Lemanis has gone a great job of using their strengths to create a system where we’re consistently putting points on the board. He uses the bigs from the high post, utilising their high bball IQ in the team with a constant stream of back cuts, gets Mills coming off screens very effectively.
France and Australia had similar rosters I reckon. Baynes and Bogut got the better of Gobert generally. Batum and Ingles are both versatile forwards. (Although Batum was playing 4 too). Both teams have an elite scorer in the backcourt. The only difference was the experienced De Colo coming off the bench- the Boomers didn’t have anyone comparable.
Essentially given our roster, I can’t complain with a 4th place finish.
And as I’ve written elsewhere on this board in the choke thread, I think the losses to Spain and France are more to do with A. Fatigue and B. Roster deficiencies than anything we can pin on Lemanis.
And when I say "playmaking and creativity" above I mean both together, not either/or. Ingles and Delly are both guys can are elite passers and can run an offense capably, but they aren't creative guys who will generate something out of nothing in clutch situations.
Do we want to look at glass half empty or glass half full?
Glass half empty:
We keep losing close matches that matter. We keep losing to teams we beat in the group stages. Lemanis has to go.
Glass half full:
We finished higher than teams with more talent like USA and Serbia, we notched wins against quality opponents Lithuania, France, Czech Republic, Canada and were within a Patty Mills free throw of a guaranteed silver medal (and likely gold, in my opinion).
Nostraballmus says Thank you Cram
'You can be a good coach and still not be the right guy to take the team to the next level. Think of GSW sacking Mark Jackson when they were a good team and then becoming a GREAT team'.
This system DOESN'T work ! It doesn't win medals (with a team that can or even should). 3 major campaigns now and no medals. Replicate the system, coaching staff and player group in Tokyo as is and we'll replicate the result (or worse. Significant change is absolutely needed
Minimum: 1)retain Lemanis for Tokyo and add a proven European medal winning assistant coach to the coaching team, to 2)add to/modify the offensive and defensive systems to provide greater flexibility and specifically to counter Euroball strengths that keep beating us in the crunch and 3) proven leadership and counsel EOG, under pressure on and off court 4) engage our best talent to play for the cause in Tokyo. Stop f'ing around with the players. Go to the 14 players you want (12 + 2 reserves) and just tell them we want you, you want in, you are in. I mean Mills, Delly, Bogut, Baynes, Ingles, Simmons, Broekhoff, Exum, Maker, Bolden, Cooks + Motum, Goulding. No camps, no squads. This is an allstar team at the end of the day. Start treating them like one.
The coach candidates have been discussed ad infinitum on this forum
You know Nostraballmus is right. he just hopes BA have enpugh Ballmus to make the tough decisions that will give this proud group the ebst chnace if medalling in Tokyo before their and our window firmly shuts.
How come no one ever puts any of the blame on the players?
Ingles switched out of his absurdly passive mode for a few games, but played only ok throughout.
Goulding/ Delly/ Ingles handled the ball a lot, and when they played lock down on Mills (who we needed to find in the 4th quarters), they simply weren't aggressive enough finding him when he worked himself open.
Aside from disappointing finishes, and the fact that makes it sting a little more, a pretty amazing tournament by the Boomers. Obviously we should've been playing for gold, but a few people commented on what would be considered a good finish before hand, and I think nobody really expected better/ more than 4th at the time.
Have to consider it pragmatically and instead of saying TWO CLOSE LOSSES AGAINST ELITE PLAYERS SACK LEMONASS
"When it came to the big games, team's knew how to counter our system and the individual heroics that got us over the line early in the tournament didn't eventuate. He was out coached."
Good teams know how to counter every teams' system by the end of the tournament. That's why it comes down to making plays late in close games. Had Mills made that free throw this conversation probably isn't happening, that's how small the margins are.
Lemanis' system suits our players perfectly.
The system has helped deliver the Boomers their best ever result at a World Cup, following their equal best ever result at an Olympics.
But, Patty missed a free throw and we missed a medal, so we're blaming the system
The free throw falls in and Lemanis is the GOAT Boomer coach and we're all celebrating
Damn, sport can be a tough business hey?
I can barely imagine them doing much better than they have played under Lemanis, to be perfectly honest. I've been pleasantly surprised with our performances at Rio and China, despite the close misses. Just my opinion I guess
And no team gave up more turnovers.
Like clockwork when the going got tough, the system faltered. The heroics were either guys going one on one (Patty or Jingles) or guys being left open on purpose (Delly, Baynes). Sure it worked in the preliminary games, but Spain and France banked on the fact that couldn't be replicated and were proven right.
Most of the shots came out of the system, there were little one-on-one heroics. Of course, down the stretch of close games you rely on players to make plays, that's the same the world over.
What we need to tweak is who can make those plays and how. In Rio, we came from 12 down against Spain and won the last quarter 24-22, while we executed very well late in wins over Lithuania and France in China, so I don't think there is a systematic issue late in games.
In my opinion it comes down to having better guard depth so our playmakers are fresher later in the tournament. You don't need to throw out a system that works, and is admired by national teams around the world, to achieve that. In fact, if you tried an overhaul you are effectively writing off our medal chances for 2020.
You know who played well in that come back against Spain in Rio? Brock Motum. He'd have been a handy addition when we had nothing else going last night.
Our system provided a lot of assists, sure, but it also provided FAR more turnovers than any other team. Assist percentage may be a nice stat, but constantly throwing the ball by forcing passes that aren't there kept even minnows like Senegal in games against us. Yes it produced a lot of good looks, but it faltered more than any other offense there too.
Going into the medal rounds the assist-to-turnover ratio was 1.76:1, which is very good. The turnovers in those games were mostly aggressive turnovers. Once we got late into the Spain game and the France game they were sloppy turnovers, which to me again comes down to having better guard depth to keep our playmakers fresh. The offence is fine as long as the people running it make good decisions.
Indeed. A lot of teams wanted 8-0, only one achieved it, the team that beat us in double OT. That tells the story, it's about tweaking some things because the team is so close to achieving a medal, rather than overhauling things and writing off our chances next year.
We had less guard depth this year than in Rio, that's the biggest thing I'd address.
As for minor tweaks, I think they could be a little better at using some simpler sets that go to our strengths at the death. Now, there are coaches who know this stuff farbetter than I, hit up Liam Flynn on twitter and get his thoughts, he's analysed this stuff really well.
If we had Simmons, we medal.
I'm not saying he would be scoring 40 a game and is our saviour but his size and athleticism would have been a game changer plus he can run the point. He would've opened up the floor and got the rest of the team better looks.
We may be FIBA champions if he was playing.
4th place at a FIBA world cup isn't something to sneeze at. Fantastic result even though it would've been sweeter with a medal around our necks. Look at the list of teams we placed higher than. Well done boomers and bring on Olympics!
I'm sure we'll break the 4th place curse once and for all
We need to be looking at HOW we break the curse and be putting these things in place. If it's as simple as 'add Simmons and we win' (its not by the way IMO)then we need to see what do we do to make sure Ben plays in Tokyo.
Anyone have insight into what rigor is applied to assessment of performance by BA after major championships ?
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