Just another poster
Two years ago
I sadly don't see us winning either, hope like hell i’m wrong. The best game we probably played all tournament was against the French and we barely won, plus I can’t see the playing that poorly again either.
They need to find a better spread of scorers, perhaps try and use mills as a decoy to get guys open. Someone needs to tell Ingles if he has an open shot to take it, he needs to be more aggressive this time around.
Two years ago
As posted in the other thread, this is the best Boomers team to ever play in Worlds or Olympics. Underestimate them at your peril. With the opportunity to win Australia's first ever medal in men’s competition, these guys will lift. Either way, they’ve done the country proud. Go Boomers!
Nostraballmus is over proud. We know we can do proud. We've been proud for 50 years.
We know this group is capable. Undoubtedly our most capable group ever. The golden generation. Our window is open.
Nostraballmus asks, do we have the cattle to deliver when it counts ?
I think proud, in the end is all we have. If they win Bronze, are we not proud? And if they lose Bronze, does this team not deserve pride?
No Boomers team will ever care as much about this as these guys do right now. No team will play as hard, as well, or will put their bodies and careers on the line the same way. When this iteration of the Boomers is over, they'll hand the mantle over to guys like Ben Simmons, Jonah Bolden, guys whose allegiances have shown not to be strong. Is Ben Simmons going to draw charges for you in a meaningful game the way Aron Baynes did? Is Jonah Bolden going to play himself into needing a drip the way Matthew Dellavedova does?
Are we going to hang failure over these guys if they fall short or are we going to appreciate what they've done for basketball in this country? The fact that for 6 games, we dared to dream of gold and the fact that they took us on that ride with them, likely inspired kids across the country, and everything else?
Get around the boys. They fucking deserve it.
I desperately hope they win this but was also hoping France would win their semi as I don't think a second win over them is likely.
The poster who suggested using Mills as a decoy is sort of right, I think, but it requires others to really step up, especially Ingles. Mills was so much of our offence against Spain, even when he was missing he was doing it with 3 defenders draped all over him and leaving offensive rebounders wide open.
I think a lot depends on how much our guys want the bronze. Bogut and Baynes haven't played massive minutes as they've been used situationally. Kay and Landale the same, though Landale has been unable to catch or play defence. Mills, Delly and Ingles will be stuffed. We probably need Goulding, Bogut and Baynes to combine for 40 to have a real shot.
FWIW i'm glad we won't be playing ARG in the third place game. The way they are playing now, they would just wear down and pick apart the Boomers mentally and physically. I think they beat ESP in the final.
FRA is the more realistically
winnable game. Mentally questionable, too reliant on their star, and we have their scalp once already.
I was gutted last night - but glad ARG won last night - looking forward to both games tomorrow. GO BOOMERS!! (GO ARG!!)
Well, Argentina is the far superior team to France as shown in that game, so France is likely the best option of the two anyway. Plus Argentina have boundless energy and I doubt we'd want to come up against that after a double-overtime.
Energy-wise, who knows? Maybe they all have one last hurrah in them. Maybe they play with the kind of intensity and anger that absolutely rips the game out of France's hands? Maybe they come in and can't muster the care to even win? We just don't know.
ME, respect. Dont misinterpret The Ballmus. These boys fully deserve our support. Their effort has been incredible. We are going to appreciate what they've done for basketball in this country.
Ballmus respectfully suggests that despite the incredible effort and pride, for which accolades and acknowledgement is absolutely deserved, it may prove to not be enough again. Is something more or different required to take the next step ?
Do we go with more of the same same and hope the outcome is different in Tokyo ? Do we learn from those who've proven they can do it repeatedly ?
Ballmus thinks there needs to be an open, objective review of this campaign by BA with international and non-basketball expertise involved, a comprehensive assessment done and a plan developed and executed for Gold in Tokyo. This is what this group deserves - help to take the next step. This acknowledges the incredible efforts of a group that have shown they are capable of the next step best.
I'm wondering if the overt verbalizing in some media of the lessons learnt in the Olympics last time made the pressure borne by the guys in the 4th factors more than it needed to be. If it was being said to the media - it was likely being discussed in the locker room. Instead of it being another game which they needed to win - they elevated it into something which ultimately became too much to bear - especially when Spain started bearing down on them.
There will be some sort of review I'm sure, but I don't think they'll throw the baby out with the bath water. Despite some of the armchair critics, Lemanis has been a solid bet as a coach and they'd retain him and the nucleus of the coaching staff I'd suggest. There may be someone added somewhere to help in some way on that end but I think we'd have buckleys chance of seeing a different head coach before Rio. Lemanis is our guy and I am comfortable with that.
As for player wise, if Ben Simmons pulls his finger out of his ass, he's on the team. But as has been shown with Antete-----kompo, NBA stardom and guys who bully to the rack isn't necessarily the formula for FIBA success. I'd say we'd get more out of the Dante Exums and Ryan Broekhoffs in tournament play. But there is another level we can go to talent-wise. Ben's Twitter silence about the Boomers throughout the campaign has been noted though. And I don't think you can mess around putting Bolden on the team.
You could expect Delly, Mills, Ingles, Baynes and Bogut retaining their spots, likely adding Exum, Simmons, Broekhoff to the team, and I think Goulding, Kay, Landale will be given every chance to fight to retain their spots against Thon Maker, Adel and other players in the conversation. Creek also isn't out of contention either. Bryce Cotton, if naturalized in time, also presents an interesting option. Our Tokyo team will have more depth and athleticism in key areas and that could end up being the difference.
But for now, it's not over for us. Bronze for Australia would be the equivalent of the moon landing and we CAN still get that done.
Unfortunately i cant see them beating France twice. They will play with courage and spirit as they always do. But i think they would need to emulate something close to their shooting display the last time they played them. There is so much reliance on Mills it would take guys like Delly Ingles and Baynes to step up again from the perimeter. For me Goulding is nothing more than NBL level. He's streaky and when the pressure is on he's too unreliable.
All tournament different guys have stepped up. Last night you got the game of a lifetime out of Nick Kay. Before that it was Andrew Bogut, then Aron Baynes, then Joe Ingles. Someone always steps up so I wouldn't worry too much about surrounding cast stepping up. Someone will. But whether it is enough is what remains to be seen.
To me, mental focus is the question. Australia will beat them if they're still hungry enough.
Think we've thrown all of our punches. Ran out of ideas in overtime against Spain.
I genuinely hope I’m wrong and that the boys can find something special because they truly deserve a medal. But they also need to earn it, nothing is given at this level.
Two years ago
Normally in this situation, I'd think a team in the Boomers situation might be spent.
But these Boomers have shown incredible fighting spirit, and have played mostly at a high level in all the crucial games against good opponents, and will be as hungry as ever
France will bounce back from their off night.
I'm hoping we'll see another classic like Monday night with the same outcome.
I'm not shattered before the tournament we would've taken making it to the bronze medal game that was always considered our best possible result. IMO, we were the worst team in the SF (we needed Baynes to go off 5/6 3pt to sneak past France) and the two best teams all tournament are now in the gold medal game. We didn't deserve silver.
It's going to be hard but we need to regroup and go hard one last time to try and create history by winning our first medal. I think France are likely to win this time as all of our offensive options outside of Mills have fallen away now that we've been heavily scouted but we really need to throw caution to the wind tomorrow night.
This team is probably our best chance yet to win a medal.
Kay has been great but take him off in the last 5 minutes. There's just not enough confidence there.
You need the guys on who have ice in their veins. To Patty this is nothing after crushing Lebron in a finals series. To Delly who iced shots in the Cavs finals series. To bogut and Baynes who have played important roles in finals series. All these experiences bring a value commodity of fearlessness.
The NBL guys are great but they looked like deers in headlights in these critical moments. Confidence and killer instinct are important in these close out games.
Not saying the NBA guys didn’t look shakey too but the difference in that game was confidence. And Marc Gasol had the greatest confidence in the court.
Corey Webster plays NBL, he doesn't lack confidence. Neither did Shane Heal. It's more an individual thing rather than which league you play in. in terms if experience, it really comes down to FIBA experience moreso than club experience.
To be honest though, I thought it was fatigue last night. Poor form by FIBA to have teams in the SFs playing on different length breaks. Inexcusable on their behalf, a major failing of the draw.
ffs now fiba have Spain more rest on purpose. Did they give the argies more rest too? I thought they were biased towards euro teams ?
The Aussie's started a day later, did they rest on day 1 when Spain played
FFS we just got beat cause they executed better down the stretch
Get over it. We just got to be better at EOG and end of tournament- happened in Rio too.
Turning up against Senegal and the Dominicans instead of the arrogant overconfidence we showed might have got our guys some rest
Yes they did give Argentina, and the USA and the Czechs less rest than their opponents. This is something that doesn't usually happen in FIBA tournaments. It's a really poor failing of their draw.
In 2014 the difference in rest was from the SF to the medal games, but the teams with the extra day's rest had to travel on that day, leveling out the field somewhat.
Didnt mean to say that NBL guys as a whole have less confidence but the guys on our team in that category have had limited exposure to high pressure moments. When I think of high pressure moments I think of Delly draining two foul shots in the NBA championship to clinch a game from the warriors. I picture patty dropping 5 threes on Lebron in the finals to end Miami's dynasty. These moments allow players to be more fearless when it counts. Gasol has this last night and I think his recent championship helped with this.
When it comes to the final minutes you want these guys taking your shots. That’s where I think Team USA would have benefitted from Carmelo.
Kay won an NBL championship with Perth, then went through the entire NZBL season undefeated (winning ring and MVP)
If you discount the exhibition games, he was on something like a 30 game winning streak
And I don't think it was lack of confidence that caused Delly & Jingles to start throwing up bricks
This is our opportunity to equal Philippines in the number of FIBA WC medals. Yes, at this time, Philippines is in front of us in that historical medal tally. We are also currently equal with New Zealand in best result in a WC, so a bronze will finally put Australia in front.
Pressure is pressure. Either you have learnt to handle it, or not.
Kay played the game of his life last night, how any imbecile could finger him as the problem is beyond belief.
I love how everybody talks about the problems facing Australia in getting back up, and forget France is in the same boat, only worse.
After knocking the USA out, France thought they were headed for at least a certain Silver, if not Gold. Instead they got absolutely dacked by the Argies.
They gave us their best, and fell short. Why should they feel any more confident this time?
Bronze medal games (in this format) are probably the biggest test a team will face. Can they put aside their last game and stand up when it counts. It is the same for both teams, and personally I think our guys are made of stronger stuff.
The only thing that concerns me is fatigue.
Clearly it was a factor last night, and our guys did play two OTs. Will that make a difference?
I love how everybody talks about the problems facing Australia in getting back up, and forget France is in the same boat, only worse.We played 50 minutes of hard-fought basketball and lost a heartbreaker, they played 40 minutes of casually screwing around and were never in the contest.
"The only thing that concerns me is fatigue.
Clearly it was a factor last night, and our guys did play two OTs. Will that make a difference?"
Is this a serious question? Did you watch the game D2? Did you somehow miss Dellavedova being unable to even walk for a while due to severe cramp?
"We played 50 minutes of hard-fought basketball and lost a heartbreaker"
You're saying our guys will be too busy crying in their beers?
I'm not sure what counts as more "heartbreaking"? Fighting hard and losing in OT?
Or, thinking you've a shot at Gold, then getting absolutely torn apart in the Semi.
It remains to be seen how much the fatigue will factor in, or how much worse ours will be .
I suspect the Boomers will be playing an away game against France after Chinese social media appears to have widely misinterpreted his outburst as anti-China. Not sure if it is the saving face culture or just foolishness, but the guy who made the accusation didn't turn back on it when the content of the footage was questioned; instead he doubled down on the accusation which made it gain even more traction. There will never be a correction to this. The misinterpretation will live on for Chinese.
If Bogut is harassed more, I suggest he mention something about that the Chinese basketball team is officially out of the 2020 Olympics, not even eligible to play in the qualifying tournaments.
I'm not sure if FIBA disciplines players/coaches disparaging refereeing (did anything happen to the Lithuanian coach after his strong criticism during an official press conference last week?), but somehow it wouldn't be surprising if FIBA suspended Bogut for the next game.
Two years ago
France and the other Euro countries play enough tough games as a team every year to give them a massive advantage in comps like the WC or the Olympics, which we obviously don't. They also have tons more money thrown at them, individually and collectively. They have an easier job running their training camps because they’re located so much closer together than we are. But Australia STILL gets to the last 4 so often, despite all the odds.
I put it down to mental toughness, smart versatile players, and (generally) good coaching.
I’m confident that we will fight to the end, and wouldn’t be surprised by us getting that medal which we sooooo deserve.
There is a lot going against the Boomers for this game. Fatigue, probably some broken egos. But this also sets the stage for them to shine the brightest. Are they not always a better team with the backs to the wall, and would this not be an absolutely herculean effort to win and get our country the first ever medal? It would be as close to a storybook ending you could get without winning gold, a bitter-sweet story.
I don't know if the Boomers will do this, but they can, and if they do it will be made all the more special.
"The China will make qualifing tourney"
The FIBA TV coverage listed 16 teams that qualify for the Olympic qualifying tournaments, and these don't include China. I thought that was it. But you are right, there is an extra 2 "selected" teams per region that bring it up 24 teams, so it is expected China will get offered one of those places. China shouldn't have any realistic chance to qualify for the Olympics... unless they are given an extremely favourable group, again.
The two extra teams are supposed to be based on FIBA World Rankings after the WC. Prior to the WC China and Philippines are in those spots. Korea are close enough to potentially jump ahead of the Philippines, but they only won one more game at the WC so it may not be enough.
Two years ago
Interestingly enough it seems like the FIBA refs are reluctant to call flop warnings whereas they are a regular fixture throughout the NBL season.
Even on an obvious one like Rudy's flop when making slight contact with Ingles.
I think they’re overdone in the NBL but haven’t been used enough at this tournament.
Aussies with only 2 O-boards and as Stephen Quartermain would say, "missed what he should've made" from close range. We have to step up to counter France. Surely they will come out much better in the 2nd half. It's not all just due to the Boomers good D.
Refs are awful, but this is where the real criticism of our lesser players becomes obvious and less emotive.
Goulding plays well for 75% of a play, then the 25% is a missed easy shot, a dumb foul, or turns his head and someone back door plays him.
Landale plays really small, makes some dumb fouls and, once again, turns his head and someone back doors him.
I aint even mad at creek, his limited and does what he can. I guess more from more talented players.
Our lesser likes have trouble adjusting to bad calls. How many offensive fouls do we to get called for before you adjust?
Man our offense has just fallen apart in the second half
You just can't blame the refs when we keep missing all of our shots, and France (or Spain) keep making theirs. Delly and Joe are useless in these kinds of scenarios, they go to jelly and is affects the whole team. Some players/teams can rise to the occasion and some can’t, too much jelly in their legs.
At the point we might as well pin our hopes on Patty throwing bombs and hope some go in.
Another spectacular choke by the Boomers. This one much worse than Spain, but at least it wasn't for the gold medal or the Olympics. Boomers by far the hardest national sporting team to watch.
That’s it for me, see you guys in Tokyo when we throw up another iconic choke for the world to see.
Just a question: are we going to lose two games in a row because Euro teams can run a simple pick and roll at the end of tight games and we are too stupid to do the same? Should've been Patty and Baynes two man game from top of the arc at the end of both games. Gonna finish fourth again :-(
We're getting pushed out too far in offense and we seem to run the clock down to the last second.
Why the hell are we not running bogut from the post in THESE circumstances.
Mental capitulation, we just choke and dont have that killer instinct.
I just cant believe in this teams ability to finish, this is far from the first time or tournament that we crumble. We need an asshole closer.
Very disappointed, they didnt let us down as much as they let themselves down.
I tell you what, I've found a couple of Kay's misses around the hoop as frustrating as anyone else, but he's well and truly outplayed Landale this tourney.
In hindsight the lack of any blowout losses really ended up biting us on the ass re: fatigue.
I don't recall a single person 2 weeks ago calling this a medal-winning team.2 weeks ago we weren't up double digits with a medal on the line and looking like the better team by far.
Disappointing last 2 games but overall this was a good tournament for us.
Friday night, we were. Tonight, we were. And we choked them both away.
You don't run Bogut from the post because his arm is buggered and so he’s not a great scorer. You do what the Euros do at the end of high pressure games: pick n roll with your best shooter and live or die with that. Our offensive sets are too complex and take too much energy to keep running under pressure late in these high stakes games.
Overall it was an amazing performance by these Boomers right up until the 4th quarter of the semi, so I have high praise for the coaches. But we have to learn from this and play the last 5 mins of big games differently.
Just not wily enough (unable to play refs as well as FRA) and unable to close out. This is beyond a joke - BA needs to get a sports psychologist (or a better one if they have one already). These capitulations in high-stakes games are just unfathomable.
Two years ago
Got way too complacent when we found ourselves ahead by 15 with 15mins left in the game. Not only the players but the coaching staff as well. Super proud of the boys but this sucks!!!! The Spain game hurt, and this added onto that. Very disappointing way to end our World Cup campaign.
Two years ago
Basically we relied on players to be hot in the tournament for that win streak. Mills baynes ingles each dragged the team to seperate wins. You can't rely on that to win every game because eventually no one will step up to that level.
we rarely had wins just from general execution instead of an individual's resilience.
That was evident when we couldn't even dispatch Senegal with any authority.
We need our proper preferred 1st team to not have this reliance in the Olympics.
As much as I hate to say it, deep down we all knew the choke was coming.
I certainly did, my wife said at half time, surely we can't lose this and I told her not to be shocked when France win.
We fall apart, get smasbed by the pick and roll and can't get any decent looks. It was the Spain game all over again.
"we rarely had wins just from general execution"
For most of this tournament almost every basket was from an assist out of the offensive system. This team executes bloody well when they are fresh.
As other people have said here though, things need to get more simple late in games and tournaments when you can't get through sets the same.
That said, we were never winning the bronze from the moment we slugged through double overtime on Friday. The guys did incredibly well to give themselves a real shot at it today, but they had to put it away early and they almost did, but not quite.
Credit to them for Australia's best-ever performance at an international tournament with a roster plenty of people were saying wouldn't get out of the group. A great team that ends with heartbreak, like too many Boomers teams before them unfortunately.
Great tournament overall. Disappointing last two games.
The loss of Cook in the end hurt, Kay did very good but an extra long athletic player would've helped a lot. Tiredness and getting away from what we were good at down the stretch cost us. A lot went right early in the tournament but Dellavedova, Goulding, and even Mills shot deserted them. Throw Inglis in there as well. Landale was slightly out his depth as tournament went on, looks like a great future but more likely in Europe, as lacks athleticism.
Yesterday you called me an idiot for suggesting the possibility. Fuck off with that bullshit.
He also questioned the defensive tactics that allowed our opponents a lot of long 2s - the tactics which IMO were the single biggest reason behind every win over a quality opponent this tournament, and also the reason we stayed competitive in the Spain & France games.
Our D has been superb.
The offense clearly needs a tweak before Tokyo, but health permitting it will be working with a lot of extra talent too.
Two years ago
Ideally, you want a situation where Delly, Mills and Baynes are backups, not main men on the team. That enables proper rest and lack of fatigue. Inserting Exum, Simmons and Broekhoff (sp) and the depth is there. Maker and Bolden probably help too. Just hope they can go with the heart shown by our blokes in this tournament. Gutted, yes. Proud as hell though, our guys never give up and punch above their weight. Hang in there people, a medal will happen. I've been watching since the bloody 1984 LA Olympics!
We could really do with more depth. Delly was a warrior all tournament, but it's too much to expect him to play at that intensity for so long. Exum will offer that extra elite defensive presence.
We really missed Broekhoff too. His role is so underrated on this team.
If we don't get a new coach we are screwed. Calls a timeout when if he waited 30 more seconds there is a TV timeout. Enters the last quarter with only 1 timeout left.Were there TV timeouts? If there were they don't show up on the live stats play by play.
I know boguts arms not great, but its more mental than physical at this stage.
Whats our future hope? For ages it was exum and simmons added to this core of competant players.
Exums good but passive, no decent atheltic international quality bigs are coming up (dont you dare mention humphries or froling), simmons cant and wont shoot IF he plays (he's a downhill player), boldens burnt his bridge (hes also average at best), broekoff relies on others to be great.
All our potentially great guards (the 6'3" to 6'7" range) are all being recruited to play afl, so we will never have a whole host of great guards to choose from. We wont ever have a ginobili, lule, fournier, satoransky, dragic etc.. Hell, tbe next patty will be a pocket player or midfielder and the next delly will be a tagger.
After 2020, we are done for the forseeable future it seems to me.
Someone please convince me that the next great generation (heal, vlahov, bradtke, longley then ingles, patty, delly) are coming
It wasn't the refs
It wasn’t fatigue
It was a choke, pure and simple
I can appreciate France and Spain really stepping up in those 3rd and 4th quarters, but when we miss all our open 3s , simple layups rim out and we keep turning the ball over in fantastically amateurish fashion, we have clearly lost our nerve and the biggest impediment to wining a medal is the mental fragility ad focus of the playing group. I’m not sure of Lemanis’s caliber as a coach but the whole "we are going to win the gold medal and be greatest boomers evaarrr" mantra is too much expectation and pressure on the boys. We need to go into Tokyo with the GOAL of winning a medal but the FOCUS on putting other teams to the sword when we establish healthy leads.
If we don't get a new coach we are screwed. Calls a timeout when if he waited 30 more seconds there is a TV timeout. Enters the last quarter with only 1 timeout left.I've double checked, and this is completely wrong.
That's all on the coach
1. There were no TV timeouts.
2. Lemanis called the timeout well after the TV timeout would have occurred even if there had been one.
" Our offensive sets are too complex and take too much energy to keep running under pressure late in these high stakes games."
Agree with this. Alternative we could go with a deeper rotation to give our finishing lineup fresher legs. Delly and Mills looked so tired at the end of the last two games. Perhaps we need to be able to brush off the minnows more decisively or predominantly use our backups for these games.
We can get core international quality players into those 9-12 spots by adding Simmons, Broekhoff, Exum, Maker etc, so surely we should have the talent to rest some of our starters during the games against lower ranked opposition. This World Cup has been relentlessly intense for all of our core which surely played a role in these late game fade-outs.
We need our 8 best if we want a medal in Tokyo. We need to go all in. Basketball Australia need to get these guys on board. Hopefully they are watching seeing how much we want it. A team of Simmons, Exum, Broekhoff, Mills, Ingles, Delly, Maker and Baynes is our best shot. We have a top 3 team of talent if everyone plays. If they start playing together early we have a top 3 team.
We came in ranked outside the top 10.That's based largely on our performances at London, Beijing, and wherever the World Cups were between those two Olympics. We get almost nothing towards out world rankings from the qualifiers, so the only thing really to our benefit is Rio. It's also based on the US results over that period.
We weren't anywhere near the 11th-best team in this tournament.
I agree, rjd.
These tournaments have always been wars of attrition, and they are designed that way. They're brutal, and it becomes more apparent the deeper you go.
Guys like Kay, Creek & Goulding have proven that they can play a role. If they're our 10-11-12 guys in Tokyo instead of 7-8-9 then we can get some proper rest for our key players. Kay & Creek in particular will be better next time for this experience. So will Landale, I expect.
I still think there's plenty to be optimistic about.
Another campaign, and another Boomers fourth place finish. Fourth, being perhaps the worst possible place you could find yourself. You were good enough to be a problem to other teams, but not good enough for any kind of reward for which history will remember you.
It is sad for these players first and foremost. Very, very sad. But for their last minutes of execution, they just didn't end up actually deserving it. The team that played to win and came up big when it counted won the game, and Australia, as has been the trend for our entire basketball history, was found lacking.
You have to wonder whether the ghosts of fourth-placed past started attacking them mentally over the past few games. Whether they couldn't mentally even conceive of actually winning these games so they acted in ways that caused that to be the case. I can't think of any other explanation for the complete and utter capitulations we have witnessed across the past two games. You also have to wonder whether these guys will put their hand up for another serving of heartbreak in Tokyo and moving ahead into the future.
The sad thing is, this team does stand among our greatest. Our greatest teams are excellent teams renowned for choking when it matters most. As much as I love the Boomers, that is what they are historically. Maybe that is why the media just doesn't care? Maybe that's why the public scoff? We've always proven to be good, but just not good enough. We're not quite "also-rans" but we are a team that the best teams in the world know they can beat as soon as they smell blood in the water.
Fact is we are 90 percent the way of being a medalling team, but that 10 percent is a real problem that needs figuring out.
Was it the coaching? Team selections? Talent level? Mental issues?
The first thing that bounces out to me about coaching is the execution. We were an unselfish team that never managed to keep turnovers under control. And in those last minutes of both games, we looked absolutely clueless about what to do, what to run, who to get the ball to, or how to manufacture a shot. Patty bailed us out of situations all too often.
Team selection. Looking at your team selection you have a 9 man rotation where there is no meaningful rest for guards. While I don't think you just stack in whoever you want at any position just for talent, I do believe that if you couldn't trust Gliddon, Sobey or Barlow to even average 5 minutes a game between them, then you made the wrong decisions on who you picked. Barlow was a last minute call in for Bolden, so that is understandable. But are you telling me we couldn't have possibly got more out of either Lisch or Martin at guard? If only for experience sake, Lisch over Sobey if you REALLY cannot trust to give Sobey a minute. Tired legs and rotations was a factor in falling apart.
Then there's the talent. We have a talented team. But are they the top 3 most talented team in the tournament? No. I suppose we were hoping this vaunted structure would be the thing that made us shine through. But I am not of the belief that we can get any further with Matthew Dellavedova as a starting point guard. He is an excellent back up at this level but we need more at that spot. Joe Ingles fell away in the second half and yuou have to wonder what is going on with him mentally for him to have shot the way he has in the tournament. Jock Landale was near useless in the tournament. Nick Kay was the surprise package who puts himself into serious Tokyo contention for being the best garbage man you could ask for. But for the most part, I'd argue that the talent we have lacks the nerve in big games. Maybe the Europeans are better because they have more big game experience. But there is a need to add pieces around the talent we have, for sure. The core is good, but they're not going to get it done consistently enough to medal in these tournaments.
Well put, ME.
Our qualification route and geography is always going to put us at a disadvantage compared to Euro and North/South American teams.
For the short-term our presence in Asia helps them more than us - as much as some elements piss and moan about it being unfair - clearly they want to compete with each other for last in the tournament. In the long-term (at least 10 years judging by this tournament) it will hopefully allow the Boomers to have at least some tougher prep games in Asia.
Gutted - but it's just a game. On to Tokyo, because that is all there is right now...
"Maybe the Europeans are better because they have more big game experience."
European teams are currently 4-4 in knockout/medal round games this tournament (with 3 of those losses to non-European teams), that's not really a blistering record. In 2016 they were 4-5, in 2014 they were 8-9. Unfortunately, we keep going 1-2!
However, it's important not to think of Europe as one entity, it is made up of lots of talented basketball nations who have their share of successes and failures. This century, only three European countries have made more top 4 appearances than Australia.
"That's based largely on our performances at London, Beijing, and wherever the World Cups were between those two Olympics."
It's an 8-year cycle, so it was London 2012 (7th), Spain 2014 (12th) and Rio 2016 (4th) that have some bearing. Really, the rankings don't mean a lot.
In reality, USA is a clear first, then Spain, Argentina, Serbia, Lithuania, France and Australia are in a bunch after that, and not much really separate those teams. To have finished 4th at consecutive major tournaments is sensational, as annoying as it is right now.
ME, the Ballmus says respect. You've nailed it. The Ballmus hopes that a truly transparent review of the campaign is conducted by BA and some decisions made that will take us to the next level. There is no doubt this team CAN medal. We need to make the decisions now so that we WILL medal.
1. Coaching Team. This coaching team has now proved 3 times they can't get it done. Must be changed. If Lemanis is retained as head coach for Tokyo - he is contracted :(- a highly experienced, proven winner of medals must be brought into the coaching team. An expert on Euro ball is required. We will likely need to beat a Euro, under pressure, to medal.
2. Players. We must be able to engage all of our best talent for Tokyo. That means Simmons, Broekhoff, Maker, Bolden. Deepest team possible, just take the best players available. No point having three guys you cant even put on the floor, ever. eg Surely Motum could have held down a few minutes, even out of position, to rest someone. This needs to be considered in decisions made in point 1 above. No point having the Golden Generation if they wont play for the Boomers. The coaching team and BA needs to be able to engage our best talent to play. This may require different thinking and approaches to engaging NBL guys who are just happy to get a run in the green and gold.
3. The system. It is apparent that the group believes very strongly in the way they play, their 'system'. Lemanis and Creek doubled down on it in their press conference just now. The system doesn't win medals. We've proved it again. Needs to be changed or at least enhanced. Some more options or Plans b and c up their sleeve will be need to be added to win the big games. maybe 'hanging our hat on the defensive end' van mean having some different defences from time to time, to try maybe when things are turning to s*it. Both Spain and France were able to adapt and change when in big holes, we just kept hoping what was working would keep working.
4. Mentality. See Points 1 and 2. This group screams 'We only do things our way only and we crack under pressure'. For all the bluster about being a family, strong group and winning gold jeez we lost our sh*t both on court and off when the heat was turned up. Fixing this takes the right leadership. See point 1 above.
We CAN medal in Tokyo. The decisions we make on the above in the next two months on the back of this campaign will determine if we WILL.
To much hindsight on this forum, for fuck sakes we hit a free throw we are in the final. If Bogut doesn't get the worst call against Spain at the death we are in the finals. Yes fourth is not what we wanted but great result all round. We won six games straight, never done before. Get some half full glasses and not half empty. Go boomers.
Two years ago
Well done to the guys for coming 4th, and I know they'll be even more gutted than we are as (generally) loyal fans.
Yes, they choked.
You can blame the player selections all you like, but those 9 guys were good enough to get us within a foul shot of playing for Gold, after lots of basic misses and sloppy turnovers. They were also good enough to get us 15 points up against one of the best teams in the world, again after lots of basic misses and sloppy turnovers and unusual reffing calls.
- I think the choke started when Goulding was on, and he was left on far too long; this was a game he just wasn't suited for
- in the third quarter we went away from what worked in the first half: instead of frustrating the French through lots of passing and movement and combinations, we suddenly seemed to be trying to jack up shots after 1 pass, or playing iso, at a time when we needed to keep frustrating them by keeping possession and attacking the basket to draw the fouls
- some in this thread think that we should just go to basic p&r in the last quarter, like Spain and France did; don't forget that the Euro teams are expert at running it and beating it, whereas some of the picks we set were really pretty poor
- the French bigs seemed to have intimidated Baynes tonight - he seemed to yap a lot more at the refs, and didn't show many options or impact on offence
- I think the reffing this tournament has been pretty good UNTIL TODAY. There were too many weird calls, and not enough clamping down on the flopping which anyone could have predicted. I wouldn't assume that it was FIBA influence or a Philo ref getting revenge, but ...
- Joey might get more involved when he gets emotional, but I think he also gets too unfocussed and it gets in the way; we needed 15-20 points from him every game to take the heat off Patty
- much as I love Delly, he really is limited in his offence these days
- Patty really was brilliant!!
- Landale is a work in progress, good in patches but needs a lot more experience and consistency for me to lock him in for Tokyo
- Lemanis may very well be the coach to get us to the finals but not the coach to win them; I wouldn't get rid of him for that, but I would add someone to the coaching staff who might take more of a role towards the end, like a Guys Hiddink kind of coach
I honestly don't think it’s lack of big game experience. Baynes, Bogut, Mills, Delly and Ingles all have lots of playoff games experience. I literally think the difference was not having the right end game strategy, plus fatigue from lack of depth. Patty was probably the best shooter in the entire tournament. If we’d just run a pick n roll for him and Baynes from the top of the key, Patty would’ve made more than he missed.
So as disappointing as the last two games were, I’m optimistic because the two things that cost us are easily fixable problems. Add Simmons, Exum and Broekhoff at the Olympics and we suddenly have a lot of depth, plus more high end talent.
If we can close games with Mills, Exum, Ingles, Simmons and either Broekhoff or Baynes (depending on matchups) I’d back that team to spread the floor and pick and roll nearly any team to death.
Can you imagine Spain or France trying to guard Simmons with Gasol, Gobert, Poirier, etc? They’d be in all sorts of trouble.
Simmons should actually play pg. Delly was horrid at making his own shot, yet he was the bail out guy. Fatigue hurt our backcourt. Mills was caught on taller players to often. But really we just threw to many stupid passes. Players looked tired when the offence broke down, not getting open when bogut picked up his dribble. Freethrows... you have to hit them
Anon neither Cooks or Bolden were available. Cooks is injured and Bolden spat the dummy.
ME, I agree with your summation. The lack of games against quality teams hurts us. The gap between the mickey mouse Asia Cup games and serious tournaments like the World Cup is so great. The strong European teams are used to playing against each other regularly we only get to see them every 2-3 years. Spain's next level execution in that second OT was just too much for us.
We also need more preparation games before Tokyo. We had less than most other teams for this world cup, all but one against non-European competition.
Simmons is such a wildcard. We need Simmons to be integrated into the system, whether that be at point guard or point forward, or a combination. Hopefully Lemanis has a good idea after the last training camp, but you don't know until you face real opposition. We might need those extra games to see how Exum can be used, to see where Cooks slides in, and for players like Maker, Adel, Bolden and Landale to prove their worth.
Two years ago
1. GREAT tournament. The team can hold their head high
2. Lemanis doubters, see ya. Bye bye. A medal was what we wanted, but 4th is still an over achievement compared to the expectations of most observers. He gets some credit for the way Australia played.
3. The NBL is rad- Goulding early in tourny, Kay and Creek late, All Blacks throughout- shows the NBL talent can perform on world stage
4. Patty Mills for PM.
5. This is tough to swallow. Did they deserve a medal? "Deserve" is a word some don't like but, wow, Given their overall level of play throughout Rio and Now China... yeah, they really should've walked away with silverware.
6. Being a lifelong St Kilda fan and a lifelong Boomers fan must be about the most mind-screwing sports fan combination ever.
Watching the final Spain getting a lot calls again, Gasol is the greatest milker of fouls followed by Rubio and Llull, but all the Spanish players are good at it. Missed out on the US but both France and Spain are superb sides. We took Spain to double o/t and beat France once. An ounce luck and and it could been ours, yes our bench was a bit weak but they were best available bar perhaps Barlow. We didn't medal but boomers and coaching staff can hold there heads high. Great effort by all.
Two years ago
I think it's fair to lay some of the issues at Lemanis’s feet: substitutions, in-game tactical adjustments, some selections ... but it’s not his fault we lack guards/perimeter players beyond Mills who can create their own shot. Or that we rely on a point guard whose handles are so underdeveloped he can’t change directions quickly and thus counter or confuse the defence. I’d say Lemanis’s system served this squad pretty well. It got us within a free throw of a guaranteed medal. The squad was comprised mostly of role players and Lemanis got them playing those roles well. But at the international level that’s not enough. You need multiple guys who can counter good defence or bail out well defended offence.
I assume the 5 is partly based on positions. Bogdanovic was deserved, unless you penalise him for Serbia's one loss in the quarters. Rubio probably would've made it regardless of gold, but that pushed him to MVP. So it was Mills vs Fournier for that last spot. Coin toss lands in the favour of the medal.
"We also need more preparation games before Tokyo. We had less than most other teams for this world cup, all but one against non-European competition."
I don't agree rjd, we won our first 6 games of the tournament and were close to the most cohesive side. I don't think they need more than 5 games to get ready.
Two years ago
Paul - what about fitness and conditioning then? Most teams went into preparation 3-4 weeks before us and they did not look exhausted towards the end of the tournament. Or is it that we lack appropriate subs - not arguing longer rotation, just subbing 'same' for 'same' - Spain had Rubio/LLull for example, so when one was off, nothing changed. I thought we really missed Broekhoff and someone to run the point, Exum maybe, but... the guys have done great, with a bit more poise they could have been in the gold medal game. But there's always next time.
I would say that came down to Ingles, Mills and Delly playing too many minutes. Having Exum and Broekhoff next year certainly fixes that.
I think Lemanis had a good tournament, but one area I'm sure he'd change in hindsight is not getting those guys a little bit more rest earlier in the tournament.
Not only does it keep them fresh, it allows your deep bench guys a little action so you can use them for a minute or two deep in the tournament, which you can't do if they haven't played at all.
Two years ago
Going from 5-0 to start the tournament to deja vu, they did well, but you can only call the finish in their last 2 games a choke. Both games they had opportunities to just put the game away, but they tend to get loose, turn the ball over and take silly shots. Correct me if I'm wrong, but France and Australia prob both got the raw end on the schedule with both Argentina and Spain getting that extra day before the semi's?
- Goulding is too small to play against most of these euro's in the same position, absolute liability on the defensive, although he was getting constant elbow shots to the face that weren't being called. Did well in the early games, gave Mills some back up scoring, but crumbled when it mattered
- why was Delly taking a huge number of three's at the end, he even waved Patty away when there was 10 seconds left in the 3rd? Know your roll. Added to that there were so many periods at the end where the ball never went through Patty's hands
- again, Sobey, Gliddon and Barlow waste of space if you're not going to play them, I assume you have these guys to try and give you a spark when the chips are down, chips were down a lot and you'd think Gliddon would come on for a spot 3 at moments
- Bogut is a fucking sook, you're not being bailed out by the the NBL refs here, so I guess it must be cheating
- Simmons, those saying we are better off without him have lost their minds
Although they did have a good tournament looking at it objectively, unfortunately those of us who have been following them forever are again left with a bitter taste and the question, "are they ever going to win a medal"? This was easily the best chance we've had with the lower end players across the tournament.
Advertise on Hoops to a very focused, local and sports-keen audience. Email for rates and options.
- Updated every 15 minutes
Sun 20:24- re: Brisbane Lockdown
Sun 20:20- re: R1: Sixers v Phoenix Jan...
Sun 19:44- re: R1: Sixers v Phoenix Jan...
Sun 19:42- re: R1: Sixers v Phoenix Jan...
Sun 19:42- re: R1: Sixers v Phoenix Jan...
Sun 19:39- re: R1: Sixers v Phoenix Jan...
Sun 19:38- re: R1: Sixers v Phoenix Jan...
Sun 19:35- re: R1: Sixers v Phoenix Jan...
Sun 19:33- re: R1: Sixers v Phoenix Jan...
Sun 19:33- re: R1: Sixers v Phoenix Jan...
Sun 19:32- re: R1: Sixers v Phoenix Jan...
Sun 19:32- re: R1: Sixers v Phoenix Jan...
Sun 19:32- re: R1: Sixers v Phoenix Jan...
Sun 19:30- re: R1: Sixers v Phoenix Jan...
Sun 19:25- re: R1: Sixers v Phoenix Jan...
Sun 19:22- re: R1: Sixers v Phoenix Jan...
Sun 19:22- re: R1: Sixers v Phoenix Jan...
Sun 19:20- re: R1: Sixers v Phoenix Jan...
Sun 19:19- re: R1: Sixers v Phoenix Jan...
Sun 19:19- re: R1: Sixers v Phoenix Jan...
Sun 19:18- re: How good bball back!
Sun 19:16- re: R1: Sixers v Phoenix Jan...
Sun 19:12- re: R1: Sixers v Phoenix Jan...
Sun 18:57- re: R1: Sixers v Phoenix Jan...
Sun 18:57- re: R1: Sixers v Phoenix Jan...
Sun 18:56- re: R1: Sixers v Phoenix Jan...
Sun 18:50- re: R1: Sixers v Phoenix Jan...
Sun 18:39- re: R1: Sixers v Phoenix Jan...
Sun 18:29- re: R1: Sixers v Phoenix Jan...
Sun 18:27- re: R1: Sixers v Phoenix Jan...
Sun 18:26- re: Brisbane Lockdown
Sun 18:25- re: R1: Sixers v Phoenix Jan...
Sun 18:16- re: R1: Sixers v Phoenix Jan...
Sun 18:11- re: R1: Sixers v Phoenix Jan...
Sun 17:47- re: R1: Sixers v Phoenix Jan...
Sun 17:45- re: R1: Sixers v Phoenix Jan...
Sun 17:44- re: Brisbane Lockdown
Sun 17:25- re: R1: Sixers v Phoenix Jan...
Sun 17:23- re: R1: Sixers v Phoenix Jan...
Sun 17:17- re: R1: Sixers v Phoenix Jan...
Sun 17:16- re: R1: Sixers v Phoenix Jan...
Sun 17:11- re: R1: Sixers v Phoenix Jan...
Sun 17:05- re: Alex Mudronja to 36ers.....
Sun 17:03- re: R1: Sixers v Phoenix Jan...
Sun 17:03- re: R1: Sixers v Phoenix Jan...
Sun 17:02- re: R1: Sixers v Phoenix Jan...
Sun 17:01- re: R1: Sixers v Phoenix Jan...
Sun 16:58- re: R1: Sixers v Phoenix Jan...
Sun 16:57- re: R1: Sixers v Phoenix Jan...
Sun 16:55- re: R1: Sixers v Phoenix Jan...
An Australian basketball forum covering NBL, WNBL, ABL, Juniors plus NBA, WNBA, NZ, Europe, etc | Forum time is: 8:25 pm, Sun 17 Jan 2021 | Posts: 855,548 | Last 7 days: 916