Isn't Joey’s contract up for negotiation?

If so, maybe he’s planting the seeds to justify a middle of the road finish (which is probably fair enough, imho).

It's probably not too far off and keep in mind they all know what each other is on.

The only two players at Adelaide on decent/good money would be DJ & Randle. DJ is on a 3 year deal so he would've taken a discount both to stay and for the longevity and Randle was still a free agent in October and got a 2 year deal from the Sixers too so likely taking a discount on the $400k a year he was on at the Kings.

Sydney where do we start Bogut is on $1 million a year, Casper Ware was rumoured to be on around $600k a year at Melbourne, United said they offered him the largest contract they ever have and he still declined and signed with Sydney. DJ Kennedy was on $750k last season at United so safe to assume Ware is on something similar if not more at the Kings.

Kevin Lisch & Brad Newley were both on $300k a year on their previous contracts with the Kings and have just re-signed no doubt the probably took pay cuts the question is how much? Daniel Kickert is in the second year of the 2 year deal he signed with the Kings when he was still playing for the Boomers and coming off a pretty good final season in Brisbane so he would be on good money.

Louzada being an NBA draft pick would be on good money no doubt but the caveat there is the NBL pays for Next Stars salaries not the team but still doesn't take away from Joey's point. The Kings just bought out the contract of Deshon Taylor from his team in Europe so that plus paying him wouldn't be cheap. Tate has come from Belgium a mickey mouse league in Europe he would be relatively cheap, Moller could've signed anywhere I'm sure the Kings are paying him something decent to remain on the bench, Jordan Hunter got a 3 year deal from the Kings fresh out of college.

Walker, Kuany & Bruce wouldn't be on much due to lack of options elsewhere.

Isn't Joey's contract up for negotiation?

Whilst the league is as good as its ever been it wont be long before the truth starts hurting. Wollongong & Cairns now have zero chance of ever winning a championship, others like Adelaide and Brisbane look unlikely to be able to match the bigger cities either. Its just wrong and unfair.

I love the "chose not to have a next star" comments as though there's actually enough decent players who are interested in being in the 'program'.

The league pass next stars $100k.

Clubs can then choose to pay more on top of that and it doesn't count towards the cap.

Next stars can then choose where they want to go.

Is it possible Joey was referring to running AND player costs?

I do think the spending has gotten out of control at certain clubs.

Those big clubs are paying overs for their imports now I believe. Kennedy's performance last season wasn't anything special against what Imports normally do so $750k was ridiculous.

I've always said that the problem with having a higher spend is that teams won't attract better quality imports. They will simply get the same or similar level of imports - but just pay them a bucket load more. In essence, you're just spending more for the same thing.

I'm genuinely not convinced that the quality of imports has increased hugely over the past 10 years;

It's not much good for teams like Sydney, Melbourne to be spending big $$$ if they are losing plenty of money and forcing ownership to top up ad nauseum. Perhaps, yes, Sydney/Melbourne have more big money people willing to lose money than other cities, but it's not the right approach.

And yes, to that extent teams like Illawarra and Cairns suffer because they can't be sustainable on that kind of $$$ and probably require LK assistance just to be competitive and grab a few wins.

Adelaide is in the same boat, albeit hard to complain with recent success over the last 5 years or so, a couple of grand finals and the general management incompetence the last 20-30 years.

I appreciate the short term has meant a significant improvement in the quality level of players, which is wonderful and probably the right approach, but sustainable models have to kick in some time soon.

A pretty good barometer for Adelaide is the fact their major sponsors for last few years have also been United/Bullets sponsor, including B Solar, ie. the LK assistance treatment.

Joey not playing a style that can help make up the gap in budget!

Isn't there a tax for player payments over the soft cap which would help prop up clubs like cairns and illawarra? Where is that money going is it being made public?

That money goes into a fund which other clubs must apply for and use on certain terms, I believe.

That's a good system for lifting the bottom clubs while the top clubs spend, therefore improving quality of talent/player payments across the league, but what it doesn't do is fix the issue of the inherent advantage of those spending more than others.

The bigger relative spenders will still exist, the best players will still get snapped up by the bigger spenders, the lower spenders will inevitably inherit the losing role year after year and try to draw crowds/sponsors in on the role of being beaten.

Whether LK or the NBL actually want to remediate that is the first question, the second question is how, without affecting the league's ability to draw top local and international talent.

Just another excuse.

Add it to Joey's already very long list.

Very little mention of Tate. He's been awesome for them!! A modern day Barkley. He will win them the chip!

Didn't hear Wright complaining when when Brisbane spent ten fold on every one else.

"I'm genuinely not convinced that the quality of imports has increased hugely over the past 10 years; "

The imports from 2009-10:
Cortez Groves
Rolan Roberts
Awvee Storey
Corey Williams
Tywain McKee
Adam Ballinger
Julius Hodge
John Gilchrist
Ayinde Ubaka
Erron Maxey
Rich Melzer
Rick Rickert
Kevin Lisch
Shawn Redhage
Galen Young
Julien Mills
Dave Gruber

I've probably missed someone. I don't remember most of these guys well so can't comment on how they compare to today's batch.

He only won one title at Brisbane.

2009-10 was peak cheap era of NBL, with BA taking over. That import list is horrible.

If the Kings' salary bill is $4 million, the luxury tax is going to be way less than that number would suggest. Only part of Bogut's salary counts as I expect he's their marquee local. None of Ball's salary counts. So that would reduce the amount subject to luxury tax by around $1 million, using the numbers posted above.

The amount paid to Taylor's club to buy out his contract probably doesn't count because it doesn't go to Taylor?

So I reckon there'd be not much luxury tax coming to poor clubs compared to that level of spending. Maybe $300,000 split across 2-3 clubs next year? So $100,000-$150,000 each?

In comparison, a $4 million spend by the Kings, with other clubs only spending to the cap (on average), would lift the salary floor by more than $200,000 next year - if NBL still has the rule about increasing cap/floor in line with average team salaries.

Hey, It's Joey, he's always going to speak his mind,

Given it was an off the cuff comment, I wouldn't get too scientific with the analysis. "$4M" could be referring to their total salary, rather than the actual gap.

Bogut, IIRC was $1M or $1.1M
Ware is reported to be on $800k.
Kickert, Newley, Lisch/Talor, and Tate say average $300~400k each
And the bench guys collectively on around $500~600k (or whatever the cap is now.)
So yep, pretty much bang on $3.9~4M

Brisbane Bullets paid for a title. Joey Wright was the coach

The Kings salaries wouldn't even be close to $4mil.

Wright's not serious.

Where did all this stuff about Bogut being on $1mil and Casper being on $700-$800k come from?

That's so outlandish it's hard to take seriously. Where are you people actually getting these numbers from?

Its a bad smell to see them 8-1 with an NBA draftee in DIDI being not counted as a full blown import. Like a James Ennis for free.

Is that why the basketball gods punished them by injuring Lisch?

Although Sydney is still getting it done one import down.

Bogut salary was reported as 1 Mil over TWO seasons

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/basketball/it-s-not-about-money-why-bogut-has-gone-all-in-for-the-kings-20180424-p4zbfl.html

He has shares in the Kings too but we have no idea what the shares were worth.


https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2018-04-24/bogut-rules-out-nba-return-commits-to-kings-for-long-term/9690808


And, a company that has no profits legally can't pay a dividend. So, are the Kings profitable? Unlikely I reckon.

I would have thought that only Perth turn a profit.

It's not so much bitching about Sydney spending lots as it is about what is going to keep the NBL a thriving, sustainable, competitive league.

Caspers more believable since Cotton was reportedly on 600 and may have taken a discount for a 3 year deal. Plus as you say, Sydney outbid United for his services.

So I could almost believe 700 for Casper. Let's say 700 then

Casper 700
Bogut 500
Lisch 400
Newley 300
Didi 300 (Inc 100 by NBL)
Tate 250
Kickert 200
Moller 150
Bruce 100
Walker 100
Kuany 80
Hunter 70

Total 3.15mil, Inc 100k paid by NBL.

Bottom 5 on 500k, less than 40% of salary floor or $514,800. (Cap 1.43mil, floor 1.287 mil, 40% of floor being 514,800)

If the salaries are 4mil then where is the extra 850k going? Who's getting extra beyond the above numbers?

Fwiw I think these are top end estimates. I doubt any of these guys would be getting more than this. I reckon most would be on less- especially Newley, Lisch and Didi. Those 3 wouldn't be on 1mil combined.

Melbourne United top end estimates

Long 500
Trimble 500
Prather 500
CG 400
McCarron 300
Barlow 200
Pledger 150
Ili 130
Acuil 100
Smith Milner 70
McDaniel 60

Total $2.91mil

Bottom 5 $510k, under $514,800

I doubt anyone on United is earning over $500k. Trimble and Long are young guys from losing teams, they wouldn't be on the kind of money afforded to proven championships winners like Ware (supposedly 700) and Cotton (reported as 600). Prather is a proven winner but just had 12 months off- and that carries a bunch of risks, such as the clean up that resulted in him missing 6 or 7 games. And, will he be the same Prather as before? Most players recover well, but then you also have guys like Bairstow who return without quite the same agility.

Anon #108

I'm completely making these up, just for fun. Might be way off the mark.

Who knows. Not many of us do, that's for sure.

But to repeat one point, when I say "I might be way off the mark", I mean that I may be over estimating these guys salaries.

I very much doubt any of these United or Kings players would be on substantially MORE than what I've listed. It just wouldn't make sense, given what we know about salaries in other Australian sports, and international basketball, and given where the NBL is at in the sporting landscape.

Because one question you have to ask yourself is this: If this is a massive arms race, and the Kings are spending $4mil like Wright says, and United are spending $5 or $6mil like Bogut said (with tongue firmly in cheek I'm sure), you have to ask why? For what benefit? What's the point? Who's spending the money and why?

Follow the money...always follow the money.

Perth top end estimates

Cotton 600
White 450
Kay 300
Hunt 250
Martin 250
Norton 200
Wagstaff 150
Steindl 100
Majok 90
Vague 90
NP 70

$2.55 mil total.

Bottom 5 on $500k, under $514,800.

White performed well in the GF and might've got a raise. Martin and Wagstaff are settled long term in Perth, so they might be playing for less than they’d otherwise be worth.

Actually Majok is probably on more and others in the bottom 5 on less. Majok has played 4 seasons in the NBL

Still I think all of these top teams would be paying approx 500k to the bottom guys.

The differences are in the top end, and I agree Perth has less top end, expensive talent than UTD or Sydney. Perth's got a great coach and a great system. It remains to be seen whether that will make up for the budget difference.

(They would all be spending 5ook or less that is, given they're not allowed to spend more than $514,800. I think it remains a possibility they're paying a fair bit less. I remember CJ Massingale saying he was on 40k. That was only about what, 5 or 6 years ago? )

If United plays 19 home games - 14 regular season, 5 playoffs- averaging crowds of 8,500 per game, average ticket cost of $50- that's $8 million in revenue. (Yes- of course they have merch and sponsorship revenue too).

Consider their costs:

- Player salaries
- Staff salaries- executives, coaching, office staff, etc etc. This would be substantial because of the large headcount. Say 30 staff * 75k is $2.25mil. Add payroll tax on top.
- Marketing
- Office rent. They may be using LK office space but would be paying market rates given there are other owners involved.
- Travel costs- How much does it cost to send 20 people to the USA for a week?
- Venue hire
- Ticketmaster percentage on every ticket sold
- All your standard business expenses- electricity, insurances, staff recruitment, office fit outs, IT and software, accountants, lawyers.

Etc etc.

If they’re paying their players $5mil (like Bogut suggested) then they’re losing millions of dollars. Guaranteed.

Where’s the money coming from in the NBL? If guys like Prather, Trimble and Long are on $700k, and if Goulding and McCarron are on $500k, then who’s pouring in these millions to pay these guys salaries? Who decided they wanted to lose money just for the fun of it? And why are they doing it? What’s their incentive?

LK has loads of cash to throw around, sure. But don’t forget he still owns the league too. Conflict of interest but also means his main incentive is a strong league, not for his club to win at all costs and lose money for the other owners.

Don’t forget, an ASX Listed company owns 25% of United. (Crocmedia is owned by an ASX company). There’s other small owners too. Do we really think LK has such magical powers of persuasion that he’s convincing everybody to throw money away?

If United plays 19 home games - 14 regular season, 5 playoffs- averaging crowds of 8,500 per game, average ticket cost of $50- that's $8 million in revenue. (Yes- of course they have merch and sponsorship revenue too).

Consider their costs:

- Player salaries
- Staff salaries- executives, coaching, office staff, etc etc. This would be substantial because of the large headcount. Say 30 staff * 75k is $2.25mil. Add payroll tax on top.
- Marketing
- Office rent. They may be using LK office space but would be paying market rates given there are other owners involved.
- Travel costs- How much does it cost to send 20 people to the USA for a week?
- Venue hire
- Ticketmaster percentage on every ticket sold
- All your standard business expenses- electricity, insurances, staff recruitment, office fit outs, IT and software, accountants, lawyers.

Etc etc.

If they’re paying their players $5mil (like Bogut suggested) then they’re losing millions of dollars. Guaranteed.

Where’s the money coming from in the NBL? If guys like Prather, Trimble and Long are on $700k, and if Goulding and McCarron are on $500k, then who’s pouring in these millions to pay these guys salaries? Who decided they wanted to lose money just for the fun of it? And why are they doing it? What’s their incentive?

LK has loads of cash to throw around, sure. But don’t forget he still owns the league too. Conflict of interest but also means his main incentive is a strong league, not for his club to win at all costs and lose money for the other owners.

Don’t forget, an ASX Listed company owns 25% of United. (Crocmedia is owned by an ASX company). There’s other small owners too. Do we really think LK has such magical powers of persuasion that he’s convincing everybody to throw money away?

Here's a list of United shareholders

http://www.melbourneutd.com.au/pages/melbourne-united-board

We know CrocMedia is owned by an ASX co and owns 25%

https://www.afr.com/companies/media-and-marketing/crocmedia-buys-share-of-nbls-melbourne-united-from-larry-kestelman-20180715-h12p6m

I don't know how much the other owners have

But the point is, these guys arent throwing away cash for the fun of it- especially the publicly owned ASX owner

Love how you all think everyone is playing for peanuts.
Sorry just cos you're envious doesn't make it so.
Guys who aren't even good enough for the NBL can go and play in the lesser leagues in Europe and Asia for bloody good money. They're certainly not going to pack up their families and move across the country, again, for less than they could make driving a bus.

I can assure you that most teams are struggling to comply with the Bench-Cap, and are compensating those players with perks, just to assemble a roster. That's why guys like Walker keep getting recycled.
It's also why Perth signed Vague and Wani to rostered spots.

And for their top players, it's open season.
Also need to understand that for the better players, the pay-scale isn't linier. If Import B is 50% better than import A, he's costing a lot more than 50% extra.
Guys like Cotton have turned their backs on lucrative European offers to stay in Australia. That doesn't come cheap.

[Are you saying that their expenditure wouldn't be as high as estimated, or that they are spending a lot so must have a reason for doing so?]

I'm saying there's no logical reason why they would be spending $5mil on salaries.

I think people lose sight of the dollars we're talking about

Only a small handful of AFL players make over $500k a year (About 8 per club, on average). The revenue of the AFL as an organisation is $700 million a year. They made a $25mil profit last year.

The clubs have other revenue streams- eg several Victorian clubs have revenue of around $20mil a year just from pokies.

Yet even in the AFL, only the top 20% of the players make 500k.

Which of those shareholders would be happy paying Prather, Long, or Trimble any more than that?

You still need to spend money in order to claim a deduction.

Someone is putting up the physical cash that ends up in the bank accounts of your Prather's and Trimbles.

And, the more different owners there are, the less likely they'll accept frivolous spending and losses.

[Rival NBL coaches have accused the Sydney Kings of having a roster worth four million dollars more than any other team — despite being able to spend the same amount as the ladder leaders.

Perth coach Trevor Gleeson started the critictism after his side's 104-85 loss to the Kings last Sunday by saying that the Harbour City franchise had four imports.

Gleeson was including Sydney’s Brazilian shooting guard Didi Louzada as one of the team’s imports even though he is a Next Stars signing.

Next Stars players like LaMelo Ball and RJ Hampton aren’t included in the salary cap as the NBL pays their wage.

Adelaide coach Joey Wright then chimed in on Tuesday when he was asked how teams close the gap to Sydney.

Wright cheekily replied: "Four million dollars."

The 8-1 Kings are loaded with talent, including former NBA champion Andrew Bogut and ex-title-winning Melbourne United guard Casper Ware.

There is no doubting Sydney’s depth of talent but they are operating under the league rules.

Unlike the NRL’s salary cap limit, the NBL changed its salary cap setup from a “hard cap” of $1 million to a “soft cap” of $1.1 million, meaning teams may exceed the soft cap provided that they pay a salary equalisation subsidy.

These funds can be filtered down to franchises that don’t exceed the limit.

However this is a discretionary fund the NBL holds for required spending, which is different to the NBA where it’s a distributed fund across clubs.

Sydney chairman and owner Paul Smith responded to the jibes on Twitter, accusing rival teams of being bitter.

“Really?” Smith said.

“Geez, I didn’t see that coming? One coach says we have four imports. Another one says he needs four million. What’s with the fours? Tell you what - we have a great assistant coach from Perth (Adam Forde) and a player that couldn’t get a start in Adelaide (Deshon Taylor). We’re cool.”

In fairness, Sydney have bigger things to worry about ahead of Sunday’s blockbuster clash against LaMelo Ball and the Illawarra Hawks.

The Kings are preparing for a record crowd when they meet the Hawks at Qudos Bank Arena.

The highest ever regular season attendance for a single NBL game in Sydney is 12,050, while the biggest ever crowd for a standalone NBL game in Sydney is 14,569 (both set last season against Melbourne United).

The biggest crowd for a single NBL game is 15,336 between the Melbourne Tigers and South East Melbourne Magic at Rod Laver Arena in 1996.

These records could be broken while a huge international audience is also expected to tune in to watch Ball who some experts have already predicted could be the No.1 pick in next year’s NBA Draft.]

Not much there

Salary cap figure is years out of date too

When is a cheat not a cheat?

As somebody once said, its only cheating if you get caught.

Considering that in the NBL the "rules" are whatever Larry lets a team get away with. saying that Sydney is within the rules doesn't really mean much.

Sure, all the Sydney fans can give claiming that Bogut is playing for love, that Ware and Moller moved for the weather, Newley & Lisch are there just for the privilege of playing with Bogut, and everyone else gets peanuts. But whether its $3.5 or $4M the simpl fact is that Sydney is once again outspending the rest of the league by a significant margin. Joey isn't wrong.

You also can't deny that the situation with Didi stinks like yesterday's turd.
After missing the start of the season, we're now seeing why he's already an NBA draftee. Such players have always been classified as imports and rightly so.
The sick joke of it is that lesser players who miss out on getting drafted, then come out here as their first proper pro gig, are treated as imports.
Not only is that rule change simply absurd, but the way it was done, only when Sydney wanted to bring in Didi, is nothing short of corrupt.

Norton moved west because of his love for Little Creatures beer, as well as the opportunity to come off the bench instead of start.

excuses excuses excuses Joey - fans starting to see it for what it is - jungle drums might start beating if they don't get at least one win this weekend

Not excuses if it's true,

What’s it matter if it is four mill or 3.2 no point arguing the semantics like most of this thread is. End of the day it’s still over three times the soft cap.

This rich v poor agreement is only going to continue to get worse and the league will suffer if it carries on too much longer. Teams that are there for the rich teams will beat will eventually bleed fans and members,

Nbl could at least make cap rules public and transparent. The fact it’s all hidden info only leads to suspicions Melbourne and Sydney are getting massive legs up by the league. Perth not included they have built everything they have like teams should not get it handed to them

#builtnotbought

jungle drums might start beating if they don't get at least one win this weekend

I would be interested to know how much hand outs Hawks and Pans are getting? When you get a stream of welfare money you may not be as prudent with money as if it were your own.

Greg Hire talks about salary caps, luxury taxes etc. Interesting perspective being on the players association. It's more towards the end of the audio.

All teams last season spent 90% of the cap which they are obligated to do. 5 of the teams spent more.

https://www.perthnow.com.au/sport/perth-wildcats/the-dribble-podcast-greg-hire-on-retirement-life-and-interest-from-perth-wildcats-rivals-ng-b881381789z

Pains me to say it as a 6ers fan, but Joeys had 6 years and been given every chance, but results simply not good enough. We need to a fresh start ASAP or another season down the drain.