Isaac
Earlier this year

Kings coach Adam Forde fined by NBL

And a suspended suspension.

Sydney Kings Head Coach Adam Forde has been sanctioned by the NBL following his comments after Thursday night's game against the Perth Wildcats at RAC Arena.

The NBL found Forde's comments about the referees in his post-game media conference to be in breach of its Code of Conduct. Forde has been fined $5000 and suspended for one game. The one game suspension and $3000 of the $5000 fine will be suspended for a period of 12 months.

NBL Commissioner Jeremy Loeliger said: "The League is absolutely committed to continuing to encourage and support our referees in their training and development, particularly young referees as they begin what we hope will be long and productive careers in the NBL.

"The NBL’s Head of Referees Scott Butler is rigorous in his review and assessment of his referees' performance after each game. We invest in the high performance training of every referee in much the same way teams do in respect of their players and we are committed to investing in long term, sustainable referee development to strengthen and grow our pool of referees.

“There is an appropriate forum for Clubs to raise any issues about officiating. Everyone is well aware that public comments of this nature are subject to our rules and regulations and are liable to sanctions as is the case with other professional sports."

Topic #48313 | Report this topic


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Truth hurts.

Reply #840613 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

League continues to protect Perth. Hardly a surprise

Reply #840614 | Report this post


Zodiac  
Earlier this year

Hopefully they watch the game and accept that the Wildcats having a big crowd which influences the refs (along with Gleeson tirelessly working them over) is no longer something that can just be ignored.

Reply #840616 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Great point Zodiac, they should limit the size of the crown Perth can have in the stadium and ban them from making noise...

Reply #840618 | Report this post


Mobbin  
Earlier this year

Zodiac kicking off the dumb statements... So in what league, in what team sport, does home court advantage not exist?

Reply #840622 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Home Court Advantage: Normal routine, no travel, sleeping in your own bed, having your normal support base around you, familiar rings, familiar change rooms, familiar game day routine, energy from home crowd ...

Should not extend to coach being allowed to manipulate referees all game. Getting away with physicality. manipulating referees into thinking you're getting screwed. Getting calls you shouldn't be getting. Getting away with breaking the rules due to intimidation of crowd, players and coaches.

Reply #840625 | Report this post


FSTOS  
Earlier this year

Good investment of $2000 especially if it helps to shut up Gleeson's constant whine. It's hard to reconcile how the occasional blow up in the heat of the moment draws a T when the regular non stop stuff goes unpunished.

Reply #840626 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

The league isn't protecting Perth (the NBL would rather see United win the championship than Perth). The refs are just too influenced by the crowd and it’s not just Perth, it happens everywhere.

Reply #840627 | Report this post


Red74  
Earlier this year

Im a cats supporter and I hope this helps shut Trev and Deans CONSTANT yelling out "Foul!". Its a bad look for the game and needs to reigned in.

Reply #840628 | Report this post


Red74  
Earlier this year

Also Fordey, every single call made by the refs are in the moment. You get to plan for days or weeks to get your game plan good enough to win.

If the refs came out after the game and said "the coach didnt get his rotations right and didnt call timeouts and the right time and didnt run the plays well enough" there would be riots!

Reply #840629 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

FSTOS a wasted $2000, wont change a thing

Reply #840630 | Report this post


Nathan of Perth  
Earlier this year

Well that's the NBL end of season staff party paid for. Pretty much the only result.

Reply #840632 | Report this post


Luuuc  
Earlier this year

I agree with FSTOS. I think it's a bargain at $2k.
I've no doubt it was premeditated with ownership blessing, and that ownership would have expected and been happy to pay more.

Reply #840633 | Report this post


Ant Man  
Earlier this year

I am sure he is right, but the NBL will never admit their referees are the worst now since the NBL started. Hence the fine. All the reviews do now and I have been harping on about it forever is highlight how bad they are.

Reply #840637 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Will Weaver got Td off last year in a similar strategy, to make sure the reffing isn't the same in the finals

Reply #840638 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Weaver got ejected in round 5

Reply #840640 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

I find it comical how Perth fans say that the league wants Melbourne United, the team BEHIND Perth, to win and not the Wildcats, yet Perth get the favor of the guys in green game after game after game. Wouldn't the decisions go against Perth in the hope they lose, if the league favored United?

Must be fun throwing out comments which makes no sense because your own team is silver spooned.

Reply #840643 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

THat's favour mate. Do you say ass as well? I get so tired of people that write Sepo English. I am sure most people dont talk like that unless they are 14 and above.

Reply #840646 | Report this post


Gus3232  
Earlier this year

Sydney coach getting hit with a wet lettuce leaf = league protecting Perth. Hoops finest logic at work there.

Reply #840647 | Report this post


koberulz  
Earlier this year

I am sure most people dont talk like that unless they are 14 and above.
"You speak like a mature adult" is my new favourite insult.

Reply #840648 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

The reffing in the league is bad. Full stop. That's not Perth’s fault or any big conspiracy.

Gleeson does need to be told to stop. It’s one thing to discuss things with refs during a stoppage but Gleeson is awful.

Vickerman is increasingly becoming like Gleeson. The league needs to stamp out this behaviour,

Reply #840650 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Forde made some good points, but as long as sports are refereed/umpired by humans making split second decisions, you will get these types of things happening. Guys getting called for a foul that others do due to reputation. Home teams getting more calls etc

Part of it is human instinct. It happens in the NBA and AFL too

Reply #840651 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

I wonder if it will ever turn like college and nba, where the coach has to wear a technical before refs start evening it up. Its pretty common that to get a tech acts as a formal complaint most times and refs realise that maybe the coach has a point. And fans and players get a sense that their coach has the teams back, and turns into an us against the world scenario.
Sometimes the coach has to spit the chewie, especially if they're a quiet type going against a loudmouth like Gleeson. Worth the team fine towards end of season pissup. Even an ejection would have been worth it this time.

Reply #840656 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Real question, does Butler publish his reviews to teams? Or at least say, yep, referee X stuffed up this call? Or even tell teams his scorecard? It would open the floodgates, but if it's confidential only to teams and they cop a huge fine for discussing it in the media, it might solve some frustration. And hold refs accountable.
AFL admits when there's a bad call. No one's perfect, and we want young refs become old refs but learn and become better as they go. You see disgusting behavior from some parents and some coaches in juniors that cause a huge drop off. As mentioned often in this forum, court supervisors need to do a better job. Start feeding input back to clubs about obnoxious behavior and getting rid of the bullies. Can't do it in the workplace or school, yet knuckleheads feel they have the right to do it in the stands. One of favourite messages on this is from Frank Martin

https://youtu.be/fc5BfCCFzQI

Reply #840659 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

So does he whinge about the refs when they win, it did the child get to keep his toys today

Reply #840660 | Report this post


Another Anon  
Earlier this year

You could argue that all that Perth cooking aided Forde's career a fair bit which makes it all the more funnier

Reply #840674 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

"You speak like a mature adult" is my new favourite insult."
You speak like a precious dickwad.

Reply #840696 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Brisbane did not commit a single foul that first quarter - that was a clear message from the league. Also you see Cadee embrace Forde, wonder what was said

Reply #840701 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

They are friends?

Reply #840704 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Hypocritical from Forde. He was all.for Gleeson riding the refs when he was a Cats assistant because the winning allowed him to falsely take partial credit for the success the club has had.

Then once the assistant coach failed foup to get rid of Gleeson eventuated and they all jumped ship, the walking tattoo magazine had to wear his big boy pants and prove he actually could back up his claims of being a reason for the Perth success by taking on a Head Coaching role which when he held one previously in the SBL, he showcased all of his potential by sitting in a 2-3 zone for an entire season whilst riding the pre-nbl Jervis train on offense.

Move forward to present day and the only thing dented more than his hip pockets now is that ego that hold on, maybe I wasn't as good as that 2-3 zone made me believe; or maybe Trev was better than we assistants gave him credit for, or maybe Nielsen was the only decent assistant after all.

Either way Forde now blaming the very system which got him his current employer is one of the more hypocritical things you will ever hear. Look at the positives Fordey, if you don't make finals with the kings and you lose your job, you can always go back to NBL1 and see if that 2-3 some works again

Reply #840733 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

^^ Um what?

Reply #840735 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

I would assume based on all the NBL1 references this is probably the local ref he targeted

Reply #840736 | Report this post


Flat earth Kyrie 5s  
Earlier this year

If anything pulling this shit will just subconsciously piss that human element regardless and might see some quick impatient techs slapped up quicker than normal... regardless of who he's playing. Worry about those sets and stress weather Casper is feeling it or not. Not the refs.... head down do your job..

Reply #840739 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Goorj barking on the sidelines is ok though. I See how reputation is in no way at work even with the unbiased hoops posters. Guys had a whinge, was majorily unprofessional. Targeting one team and sighting shane Heal's twitter was comical. Imagine if Trev had a whinge in a conference and sighted Vlahov's twitter as his proof, hoops would literally explode.

Reply #840741 | Report this post


Perthworld  
Earlier this year

Targeting one team and sighting shane Heal's twitter was comical.

The reference to what Heal thinks was bizarre, along with the foul stat being quoted off the top of Forde's head as mentioned earlier, made the rant feel pre-planned and blessed by Paul Smith who Shane is tight with.

Reply #840744 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

"Shane heal is talking about this on Twitter" was a strange flex by Forde

Reply #840748 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Paying fans are what keep teams going. I think there is always some truth to the home court team getting a better deal with the refs in most sports. I dont think deliberate, may be just the fan influence impacts how the opposition play. It does help with the entertainment aspect of a paying viewer - lots of other options for people to spend their time and money.

For the good of the game I would love most teams to win their home games and to keep the fans coming in and supporting the game. If you look at the cats , even in years they underperformed they at least used to do pretty ok at home. Thats why they fill their stadium and Sydney and others dont.

Reply #840763 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Forde is just realising he's not that good a coach and is looking for a scapegoat other than his own ego / lack of gameplan. Way too arrogant and the fact he had a crack at Gleeson shows how little he respects people who played a major role in him even getting the gig he has now.

Reply #840764 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

I dont think Forde was having a crack at just Gleeson. He mentioned something about 700 games experience which can only mean one guy, who is just as bad with his sideline theatrics and ref-baiting as Gleeson and Vickerman. His bigger point was that why do those guys get away with it while he gets told to get back in his box as soon as he pipes up.

Reply #840768 | Report this post


Scout  
Earlier this year

Forde was articulate and provided context to his points. Sure Trev would not care about his comments, they won.

As anon #768 points out his point was nuanced and he also highlighted areas his team needs to improve in.

This has a long way to play out, Forde is earning his chops.

Reply #840776 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Forde, Kelly, Shamir have all been told to calm down and get in their lane this season. I haven't seen the same happen to Gleeson, Vickerman or Goorj.

Reply #840777 | Report this post


Duke Fan  
Earlier this year

"If the refs came out after the game and said "the coach didnt get his rotations right and didnt call timeouts and the right time and didnt run the plays well enough" there would be riots!"


Nonsense. Coaches (and players) get criticised and called out on their performance constantly. Behind their back, to their face, on forums.....constantly. If they screw up enough it eventually costs them their job

They accept that and move on. If it came from the refs they'd probably laugh about it. It's only officials that need to try and suppress criticism and levy fines against it

Reply #840779 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

"I find it comical how Perth fans say that the league wants Melbourne United, the team BEHIND Perth, to win and not the Wildcats, yet Perth get the favor of the guys in green game after game after game. Wouldn't the decisions go against Perth in the hope they lose, if the league favored United?

Must be fun throwing out comments which makes no sense because your own team is silver spooned."

I'm not a Perth fan. I think the league would rather United wins because Melbourne is the biggest market. United get their fair share of favour from the refs (look at the last United vs Breakers game - it was shocking). Not to mention consistently favourable scheduling, and the NBL cup for gods sake.

If any team it’s silver spooned it’s United.

That being said, the refs are consistently bad and too influenced by crowds, as well as making calls based on “reputation” instead of just calling what’s happening in front of them.

Reply #840803 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

803 where were SEM during the NBL Cup? Playing in Queensland? Maybe next year the Victorian Government can finance a tournament to be played in South Australia?

Seriously, think before you post.

Reply #840808 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

^ lol, I agree SEM also benefited from the NBL cup. My post was not about SEM.

The NBL cup in my opinion was a stupid idea and I hope it never happens again.

Reply #840831 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Forde should watch the calls Carlton are getting! If he wants to complain about something.

Reply #840833 | Report this post


Maffew Dellcomputerova  
Earlier this year

Refs continue to be Perth's true MVP.

With the sheer lack of playing talent they must be commended on never failing to come up trumps for them over the past 30+ years.

Reply #840904 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

The NBL did admit the ref got it wrong in Adelaide when they played NZ. Cost the Breakers the game. Please substract one W 36ers and add one to the L column.

Reply #840997 | Report this post


Three to Make Two  
Earlier this year

"I haven't seen the same happen to Gleeson, Vickerman or Goorj."

Then you didn't watch the recent Hawks v Melb game, 777, where Aylen gave Goorj an "official warning" for "barking" at him. Then, later in the same game, asked Vickerman to stop "barking" at him. Aylen used the same word to describe the behaviour each time but had a different response from him.

If I wore a tin-foil hat, I could ask "who owns Melbourne", But I don't so I won't.

Reply #840999 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Forde just echoing what every coach believes bar one.

Reply #841001 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Gleeson copped it from the same referee at halftime in the Perth v Hawks game. Gleeson then said nothing in the second half.

Reply #841003 | Report this post


Cram  
Earlier this year

There's no conspiracy for Perth or United. The refs are just poor, and its because the league doesnt invest enough in them being better. Spending money on refs doesnt get you clicks and buzz so they ignore it and the end result is refereeing that renders a lot of games unwatchable.

Reply #841004 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Its funny that Forde referenced Heal's tweets but over the weekend Heal made a post about how good Casper Ware is and some random dude replied saying he needs to stop flopping. Heal wouldn't have a bar of it so he's not exactly an impartial observer.

Reply #841005 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

This bush league is slowly dying!

Reply #841006 | Report this post


Perthworld  
Earlier this year

#841005 There will be a lot more of it to come as Heal is part of the Paul Smith family now, appointed head coach of Sydney Flames.

Reply #841015 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Fact - when you televise the games there is documentation on the performance of the referees. We are always judging the performance of the players and coach but never are the referees held accountable for their performance in a public forum. Referees are paid to do a job and it has been below standard and at some point it needs to be addressed. Commentators have made comments if the ref has made a bad call but they aren't being sanctioned. How is the refing supposed to get better if it's not addressed but if the ref is doing a crap job then the coach should be able to call it out - in a respectable tone and manner. Then again I'm sure you will see that not many will want to ref. Maybe Butler needs to come out and address the standard of his referees and what they are working on, etc.

Reply #841017 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Everyone whinges about Gleeson riding the refs but the Perth players never get a mention...which is because the players rarely remonstrate with the refs, and certainly not in a demonstrative way that many other players do.

I'd rather hear Gleeson occasionally get picked up on the mic than constantly seeing Goulding, Barlow, Shaun Bruce, Daniel Kickert and so many others spend so much time bitching to the refs.

Reply #841021 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

#017 half the problem is most people on the forum (commentators included) have no idea about the rules and therefore have no idea what they are talking about when criticising the referee's.


"Referees are paid to do a job and it has been below standard and at some point it needs to be addressed. Commentators have made comments if the ref has made a bad call but they aren't being sanctioned. How is the refing supposed to get better if it's not addressed"

This is such a naive comment not based in fact in any way shape or form. Referee's are constantly being removed from appointments. And again the commentators are the most clueless of the lot. (The commentary has only got worse regarding the referee's since they moved to the studio).

Reply #841023 | Report this post


Hopscotch 55  
Earlier this year

I do think the reffing has been poor of late, more that they haven't a sense of the game and the occasion, and have been inserting themselves in the game too much.

The AFL has been the gold standard in this, rather than embracing calling every call the same, in close games and significant games (like the grand final), the tendency has always been to put the whistle away more than at other times, to "let them play".

Now some philosophically will disagree with that, and I know in the NBL the refs will be actively trying to do the opposite.. to call every call the same, but that is where my criticism as a fan and a spectator comes from.

When I watch the game at full speed and have to make a call, I'd often find I am wrong on slow mo/another angle, and the commentators do too - who obviously watch a lot of basketball, surely this has to be taken as a factor when criticising individual calls. The fact refs often err to what was likely to happen i.e. this player often flops, or this guy generally plays top D, becomes fair in that scenario.

They can't replay every call they are less than 100% certain of, or didn't get 100% vision of, because if we are fair to how hard it is to see things definitely in real time, they'd be replaying 60% of the calls on the court. And that I would not want to see.

Reffing has been ok this season, they have just failed to keep the sense of occasion and put the whistle away a little at the end.

I'd prefer a 50/50 whistle to go against my team (Wildcats) when they are 5 points up with 2 minutes to play, than for my team, just to keep it interesting. Having to tackle that kind of adversity is good for a team anyway - build resilience and strength in those situations.. can come back and help later.

Reply #841026 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

I think some of the refs are shit and biased, that's human nature. No ref no games though. Yes they have to improve, it’s the same in most sports, afl has been horrendous so far this season. There is not a simple answer to fix it other than continuous video replays, maybe give the coach two a match and see how it works.

Reply #841027 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

I'd be interested to get the final numbers on the Coach Challenges during the Hub as there were some great challenges by coaches and then there were some downright emotional awful ones that after one replay were thrown out.

Reply #841029 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

It would be interesting to find out numbers on who has requested Coaches Challenges AFTER the hub. By my count, Goorjian has asked three times.

Reply #841032 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Yeah not a switched on bloke

Reply #841034 | Report this post


koberulz  
Earlier this year

So Hopscotch, your complaint is that the referees are doing their job?

Reply #841035 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

does this go to the NBL xmas party fund?

Reply #841041 | Report this post


LoveBroker  
Earlier this year

I like Forde despite a great dislike for Sydney.

He made good points but nothing new.

Yes some players get the benefit of calls because of their positive reputation, the the opposite happens with rookies or lesser known players like Jordan Hunter and Vodanovich.

Its been like that for a long time.

Gaze got favoured.
DJ gets favourable calls too if I am being honest.

Forde himself was the beneficiary of calls when standing behind Gleeson, AND he got years of favourable calls (or no calls) when Damien Martin harassed opposition players on defence.

Not once did he bitch about the player calls then, now suddenly its a problem for him.

Reply #841042 | Report this post


Hopscotch 55  
Earlier this year

"So Hopscotch, your complaint is that the referees are doing their job?"

Is this intended to be a gotcha?

I pretty much outlined why I think like I do, and covered off the very same perspective you illustrate here.

I.e. I can see that the referees are doing their job, it is a difficult job, but there are alternate ways to that job, such as adjusting away from making calls on a constant basis, to "letting them play", at crucial moments in the game/late in the game.

So an expectation might be that they may call soft fouls earlier in the game, but make the barrier higher in the last 2 minutes if it is close, or be less likely to call something against a team that is slightly behind/coming back, if the certainty of the call is significantly less than 100% or 50/50.

The above isn't an attack on the referees though, because it isn't up for them to go their own way - the league in general would have to be in favour of reffing that way, I think the commentators err that way, and some players might (the one's that would prefer more games get decided on their effort not a reffing call), others would want consistency as much as possible.

Reply #841045 | Report this post


Hopscotch 55  
Earlier this year

And hey, I am not dressing up my comment as anything more than personal opinion/preference.

It did not in any way say alternate views are wrong, or that my own preference is superior.

It is my preference, I think if you read into most commentators their views are similar.

Either rigidly call things the same and make very few errors, or just give a little bit of leeway when it comes to the flow and direction of the game, and try not to make soft 50/50 calls critical to the game outcome (better a no call than a 50/50 call on a soft foul putting the game out of reach).

Either way, across a season, a team that can say a single call or couple of calls robbed them of the the cup, is probably a team that had to put in an extra 5% through the game and/or season to prove they stood above.

If you lose by a call or two, you are too close in performance to the other team to really complain if they win. With unavoidable human error any team that can't separate themselves more than that is always going to be vulnerable.

Or at least if I am coaching that is what I'd say to my guys week in week out.
(I'm not but when leading a staff team I handle things the same way.. very loathe to take agency away from them.. it comes back to bite you).

Reply #841046 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Vadonovic fouls are genuine fouls, his feet don't move at speed. This is a poor example of bagging refereeing. Refs get it wrong but no where near the complaints of coaches or fans.

Reply #841047 | Report this post


Gus3232  
Earlier this year

So much of this stems from one thing - players (and coaches) are absolute masters of cheating. So much so that top level sport is becoming a contest of who can cheat the most and get away with it. Christ, I did it when I was up against a better player/athlete (99% of the population) and would hold, scrag and do whatever else possible to help me even the field.

Players in the NBL and AFL are now so good at holding where a ref/umpire can't see, throwing heads back when no contact (Cotton, Sobey, Goulding etc) that the poor refs are really up against it. It's almosst becoming a guessing game. "Did he get hit or not".

I don't remember it being as prevalent in the mid 80's when I started watching but that was obviously a differrent era.

I highy recommend doing what I did. Stop worry about refs/umpires when you hit the age of around 15/16 and start focusing on what the players on your team are doing or not doing. Therapeutic and you will learn plenty.

Reply #841048 | Report this post


koberulz  
Earlier this year

Hopscotch, your complaint about the referees is that they keep making the correct call, even when you'd prefer they make the incorrect call.

This is silly.

Reply #841054 | Report this post


KET  
Earlier this year

" So much of this stems from one thing - players (and coaches) are absolute masters of cheating."

Oh my lord Perth have been absolute shockers at it. Adelaide fans would boo every time they got away with a cheapie and holding etc and eventually umpires would catch on them Perth fans would jump on here and complain because they felt entitled for their team to get away it/were too one eyed to notice.

Goorj teams were also notorious for pushing the boundaries of legal defence.

Was always confident Adelaide never did it because that would require a semblance of effort on the defensive end, something they haven't done since perhaps the 80s. They’re more like traffic cones!

I always felt it became so rampant that other teams were shmucks for not turning that behaviour into their ordinary game plan.

These days I think refs are more strict on any contact at all to enable that offensive space for higher scoring

Reply #841056 | Report this post


KET  
Earlier this year

" Hopscotch, your complaint about the referees is that they keep making the correct call, even when you'd prefer they make the incorrect call.

This is silly."

There are elements of grey area and discretion for refs, you live in a black and white world particularly in your interpretation of the rules. I would suggest, respectfully, that this is silly.

Reply #841058 | Report this post


koberulz  
Earlier this year

Of course there are, but "call it differently at the end of a close game" isn't a grey area, it's silliness.

Reply #841059 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

For future reference they are referees and not umpires. People complain about your and you're, American spelling etc Basketball has referees. Yes they occupy positions Crew Chief, Umpire 1 and Umpire 2 but they are referees! Carl Ungerbrand @ FIBA is head of referees not head of umpires. Can people in SA get it right ffs

Reply #841061 | Report this post


KET  
Earlier this year

" For future reference they are referees and not umpires. People complain about your and you're"

Ref/ump are largely interchangeable terms and not grammatical.

Your/re are not interchangeable and using incorrectly is a grammatical error.

Reply #841062 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

They are referees. Pretty easy to understand if you aren't a simpleton.

Reply #841063 | Report this post


Hopscotch 55  
Earlier this year

""call it differently at the end of a close game" isn't a grey area, it's silliness."

Call it differently was meant to be taken as don't call fouls without there being a decent degree of contact, and a great deal of certainty that the foul occurred in the late stages of the game when things are close.

Not to make a call for the opposite team, not to ignore definite fouls and the like.

Just that where they may be calling soft 50/50 calls throughout the game, probably let those go at the end rather than guess.

Imagine a team is 4 points down, 15 seconds left a guy charges to the ring, the defender slides across and it is one of those situations where half would call it one way and the other half the other, a real grey area.. instead of calling charge or foul, just let the play go on. If the ball had ended up in the hands of offence anyway, making the call to give the ball to the defence, and effectively end the game, it probably not desirable from a number of perspectives.

Note I am not saying it is the wrong call. Just saying sometimes in years past, or in other codes, they may have been a little bit less rigorous in making those calls, and it wasn't all bad as a viewer when it was like that.

Just read me as saying I think the refs have been a little more zealous with the whistle this year than others, and it has detracted from the game a bit. In the early stages of a game it can be forgiven a bit, because they may be trying to set a standard, and you don't really feel it is "fixing" the result like a similar call late in the game may be.

Reply #841064 | Report this post


koberulz  
Earlier this year

What's the point of setting a standard if you're going to abandon it later in the game?

Reply #841066 | Report this post


KET  
Earlier this year

Do you actually think refs call the last few mins of a close game the exact same way as the rest of the game? And do you actually think they should?

Reply #841079 | Report this post


Hoopie  
Earlier this year

There's already a tech foul for flopping because it brings the game into disrepute. Now we just need a tech foul for throwing back the head when there’s no contact, as Cotton and Goulding frequently do, and that would take some of the pressure off refs from crowds who imagine that some wrong was committed when it wasn’t.

Judgement calls and 'variable calling’ won’t work because we all have different standards and levels of what we’ll tolerate - better to call consistently to the absolute rules than to have to start second-guessing on any calls.

I’d rather see the game called tightly enough that it doesn’t turn into basketbrawl, which is all that boot head Brian Taylor wanted to see in the bad old days, but loosely enough that they’re allowed to play. If it’s a foul on a shot which doesn’t really affect the player taking the shot then let it go, but if someone hits the shooter hard to make sure there’s no chance of a score then call it as at least a regular foul and consider the USF.

Reply #841087 | Report this post


KET  
Earlier this year

People like to attack refereeing as if it is so bad it ruins the game. I don't think it’s actually that bad.

If refs were absolute in their approach, we would get results we wouldn’t want, if the rules have to be spelled out so detailed as to require absolute calling, it would get messy real fast and produce a worse result.

AFL is notoriously hard for umpiring - we want to avoid turning basketball into AFL if we can avoid it.

Reply #841089 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Hoopie. Flopping/faking are the same thing Einstein. FIBA classify it as simulating a foul. So flopping (block/charge) and faking (throwing your head back with no contact) are exactly the same thing and both punishable with a tech foul. (Refer to earlier post that most people here have no clue about the rules).

Reply #841098 | Report this post


Hoopie  
Earlier this year

Nice to hear. So why are they calling one and not the other? When was the last time you saw the head move being called or warned? Perhaps I missed those in all the minutes I've watched

Reply #841100 | Report this post


Three to Make Two  
Earlier this year

About "referees" vs "umpires" debate, from the FIBA rules:

Art. 45 Referees, table officials and commissioner
45.1 The referees shall be a crew chief and 1 or 2 umpire(s).

About the foibles of referees, if refs weren't conned by flops, there'd be no need for a special rule about flopping. Also, it seemed to be the perception that you had to fall to get a flop. You could get drilled hard in the chest but if all you did was step backwards, no call. I would prefer to see play on be the rule (unless it was a charge) and if a player wants to lie about on the ground leaving his team a player down, then so be it.

Since the flop rule came in, I've also seen players take decent hits, go down and get a warning. I challenge any ref to take a bump from Nate and hold their ground.

Same with the theatrical waving the arms on inbounds in the last 2 minutes. It's always been against the rules for players to break the plane. But now you'll see referees delay the inbound pass to wave their arm up and down even if the nearest defensive player is at halfway.

Reply #841124 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

"Same with the theatrical waving the arms on inbounds in the last 2 minutes. It's always been against the rules for players to break the plane. But now you'll see referees delay the inbound pass to wave their arm up and down even if the nearest defensive player is at halfway."

17.3.3 When the game clock shows 2:00 minutes or less in the fourth quarter and in each
overtime, and there is a throw-in, the official shall use an illegal boundary line
crossing signal as a warning while administering the throw-in.

They wave their arm up and down because that is what they have to do. Again another clueless muppet

Reply #841126 | Report this post


koberulz  
Earlier this year

And the reason it's done is that they've changed the rule to make it an automatic technical for breaking the plane in the last two minutes, even if the team has not yet received a warning.

Reply #841147 | Report this post


Three to Make Two  
Earlier this year

"They wave their arm up and down because that is what they have to do. Again another clueless muppet"

I know it's in the rules.

The point you missed in an attempt to cover your anonymous self in glory, is it's a pointless rule because it was already against the rules to break the plane. Instead of enforcing the rule, they add another rule for the Crew Chief (or umpires) to enforce. So, they make the big show of waving their arms up and down because it's in the rules and it doesn't improve the game. (apart from giving their armpits an airing near the end of a game?) If a player at half way can break the plane on a base line inbound, that would be an impressive wingspan.

And it's the same with the flop rule. The rules they had before could've dealt with it if the Crew Chief (or umpires) didn't reward floppers. But their judgement let them down and the Top Officials had to step in with another rule.And it is a bad rule (IMHO) because the same people charged with the responsibility of determining a charge/block/no-call are the same people charged with determining a charge/block/no-call/flop. You could take a charge and, in the opinion of the ref, be called for flopping. And this could hypothetically lead to you being ejected. A rough penalty for playing defence and taking a hit.

Reply #841149 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

The men in green do not make the rules do they. My goodness.

Another armchair expert who has probably never stepped on court at any level with a whistle and just thinks it's simple to decipher if it's a charge/block or flop at full speed by professional athletes. Wish we could all be perfect like you. When I grow up I want to be Three to make two because he has all the answers to the universe. Bravo champion.

Reply #841151 | Report this post


koberulz  
Earlier this year

it's a pointless rule because it was already against the rules to break the plane. Instead of enforcing the rule,
So you just completely ignored my post then, huh?

Reply #841160 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Most people do.

Reply #841162 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Why because he is right and knows the rule? Unlike most here.

Reply #841163 | Report this post


LV  
Earlier this year

[There's no conspiracy for Perth or United. The refs are just poor, and its because the league doesnt invest enough in them being better. Spending money on refs doesnt get you clicks and buzz so they ignore it and the end result is refereeing that renders a lot of games unwatchable.]

Spot on

And this also explains why Perth gets the biggest advantage- the biggest, loudest crowd which is what influences the referees.

Reply #841164 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

So i have a question. How do any of you know what they invest? How do or what do any of you know of what they do and how they do it? Every professional sport in the world complains about their referees/umpires. The NBA/NFL/Premier League/AFL all spend millions on their officials and everyone still complains. The officiating at any sport is never going to be at the level of the playing standing. It's a sport to bag officials but it is so redundant.

Reply #841167 | Report this post


LoveBroker  
Earlier this year

So i have a question. How do any of you know what they invest?

This is Hoops.com.au. With few exceptions, everyone here knows how much each player makes, which imports are likely to be hired and fired, and how much the NBL invests in its development programs.

Reply #841172 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Noted lovebroker

Reply #841173 | Report this post


LV  
Earlier this year

[he NBA/NFL/Premier League/AFL all spend millions on their officials and everyone still complains.]

I disagree, I don't often find much to complain about with regards to NBA refs, other than perhaps the usual superstar treatment afforded to the likes of Lebron.

Certainly it's much better than NBL. So this is what the NBL should aspire to.

Reply #841219 | Report this post


KET  
Earlier this year

" There's no conspiracy for Perth or United."

I agree with that portion. I think we have established fans can make a difference in calls, and some teams' defensive choices (the hidden cheapies of your Perth’s, Goorj type teams) are what distinguish difference between how one team is called to another.

I don’t think NBL refs are as bad as people say. They might fluff it sometimes, but they’re less painful than AFL umpires

Reply #841222 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

LV you are then blind to the NBA criticism. Players vent every week at their post game conference. They make Forde look like a Boy Scout

Reply #841224 | Report this post


LV  
Earlier this year

KET AFL might be the hardest sport to officiate in the world

It's as fast as basketball, with more players on field and rules that are just as technical

On top of that, you need to be super fit to umpire AFL unlike basketball

The bigger problem in AFL is they change the rules on a yearly basis. Not just the interpretations but usually the rules themselves too

So it's fair to be a little more forgiving of perceived blunders by AFL umps I reckon

Reply #841295 | Report this post


LV  
Earlier this year

In other words there's continual frustration at AFL umpiring standards too just like NBL, but the reasons are more systemic in nature and its a little more understandable that this is the case

Reply #841298 | Report this post


KET  
Earlier this year

Yes AFL is tough to umpire

Reply #841300 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Ket said "I don't think NBL refs are as bad as people say. They might fluff it sometimes, but most of the time their decisions are poor"
Corrected for accuracy. Please don't compare apples with oranges. NBL/AFL.

I have watched the NBL for 3 decades + and I would suggest that the communication between refs and the players is terrible. The players don't respect the refs any more and the video replays confirm that generally the calls that are challenged are wrong. The game has left the refs behind and the belligerent talking to players like Aylen has doesn't cut it anymore.
Refs like Eddie, Ray, Billy etc. ie. the old school demanded respect and earned it. The kids of today need to earn that respect but most will never.

Reply #841302 | Report this post


KET  
Earlier this year

The problem with watching it for 3+ decades is memory fades and you get rose tinted glasses about the past. Not to mention the technology and coverage wasn't there expose every nook and cranny. The only thing that kind of time does is turn someone into a fuddy duddy!

IMO implementing technology has shown many occasions where commentators felt they were 50/50 and they picked it a different way to the refs. That tells you it’s not so much "wrong" as “can go either way” and if they’re the ones being challenged and not “blatant error” that’s pretty good.

I’ve also found on here different fans feel things should be called different ways, and they’re always eyeing off the errors that happen to their team and not the missed out ones on the other team. I’d suggest errors are statistically minimal, and roughly even, skewed to the home team.

“ Please don't compare apples with oranges.”

It’s a perfectly fine comparison - two things don’t need to be exact to extract a comparison, it’s not a false equivalency.

Reply #841317 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

if LK owned the kings there is no fine!

Reply #841321 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

"I disagree, I don't often find much to complain about with regards to NBA refs, other than perhaps the usual superstar treatment afforded to the likes of Lebron.

Certainly it's much better than NBL. So this is what the NBL should aspire to."

How often do you watch NBA compared to NBL?

Reply #841324 | Report this post


RobT  
Earlier this year

The other side of the coin is that the players react better to the calls. They know the LeBrons will always get the breaks and, like playing-time, they have to earn that "exalted" status.

IMO, to say that stars getting special treatment is OK, is contradictory to good reffing in itself. How in hell can calling one foul and not another based, on who is involved, is nearly the epitomy of bad reffing?

Reply #841327 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

In the NBA if you complain you get a T without the ref blinking so the players shut up and play, similar to FIBA competition. NBL should be harder in this area.

The 3 decades comment is interesting as both Aylen and Mayberry (Mayberry longer) have been a part of the NBL for the better part of 3 decades themselves and that longevity says more about their ability than the likes and dislikes of fans.

People in the AFL hate Razor Ray but his X's and O's from an assessment point of view put him on the finals panel year after year.

Reply #841328 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Nba ain't as physical as nbl. I don’t mind players talking to refs respectfully, just don’t continue to cry about it. Coaches should be the ones to shut up.

Reply #841332 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

The afl umpires make the nbl refs look fantastic. Both are tough gigs but afl get a lot wrong.

Reply #841648 | Report this post




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