Offensively would pick Cotton.
Defensively pick Thybulle.

Cotton is not a backup guard, he'd be a backup to the backup, an 11th or 12th spot in a full strength Boomers squad.

Argument here should be Cotton or Goulding.

Why do people rate Maker so highly?

That last group is what I mean. The guards, I have spent enough time on. All 5 bigs (including our starting PG) are scorers AND rebounders AND defend the paint/rim. Ryan B and Jingles are perfect support. They can score, inside and out, way out, pass, rebound. Every one of them can handle the ball in the open court.

Hey, we may not even need guards! Thybulle back in and we keep all opponents at 0 points for every game and Thybulle scores the winning point (only need the 1 pt) from the free-throw line!

"Argument here should be Cotton or Goulding".

Ket, you (or I) could have both. So no real arguement there at all.

Who is better mates with Big Ben ??

Cotton or Goulding? Come on.

You have to consider the roles that each player would play in the team when weighing up who should be there. Cotton is THE man in Perth. Plays are run for him. He's excellent off the ball in finding shots for himself. Is that the role he would play for the Boomers?

I'd think not. For the Boomers he would probably be a spot up shooter, play limited minutes, and be expected to flame throw when on. That is a completely different game to having an entire offense centered around you. Cotton can miss his first 5 shots in the NBL and score 40 at the end of the game. He wont have that luxury for the Boomers.

Someone who has proven he can play that role is Chris Goulding. He played that role excellently at the World Cup and I feel like a backup guard spot should be his to lose.

As for Thybulle, he is a player in the mould we've not really had before - a wing with genuine high-level NBA athleticism. Players with that attribute do not grow on trees. What might the Australia - USA game have looked like in 2016 if you had a Mattise Thybulle to chase Carmello Anthony around, rather than a David Anderson?

Athletic wings have been a problem for us for as long as we've been in world basketball. I am not sure why we would forgo our answer to that for an undersized player who may or may not be able to fill a very specific role for a team that is outside of his usual scope. If you want a spot up shooter, you have Broekhoff. This team is great defensively, but you don't necessarily have that dog who you can sick onto a team's best wing guy, and concern him just with the business of shutting him down.

I definitely think there's a clear place for Thybulle in this team but when you really examine Cotton, you see a lot of his attributes already covered elsewhere.

Very interesting debate. If Simmons is in the team, in theory you want to max out on shooters and pick Cotton of the two, though Goulding did his bit last Boomers tournament and makes a case to be picked ahead of him. Goulding has a few inches on Cotton.

On the other hand, Thybulle is playing 20 MPG in one of the top teams in the NBA, and that team is doing well with Simmons and Thybulle as weak shooters. They'd still have Ingles, Mills, Broekhoff, etc around them.

I think Goulding is what could get Thybulle over the line. Let's say you're picking two of Goulding, Cotton and Thybulle for example. If you can't take Cotton and Thybulle, Goulding is in. If Goulding is in, is Cotton slightly redundant?

Me, firstly, thanks for your contribution

Not as an arguement, but more as a discussion, I'd like to continue this.

ON Cotton:
"I'd think not. For the Boomers he would probably be a spot up shooter, play limited minutes, and be expected to flame throw when on."

Why? Why not as a straight replacement. Run the same stuff for Cotton as Mills. It's not as though Cotton can't learn minor adjustments. Plus, I don't see a real weakness in Cotton's catch-and-shoot skills.
CG has all of that plus extra inches (important, I know). Agreed that there is a very strong case for him and/or Sobey, Creek, and others.

On Thybulle:
"As for Thybulle, he is a player in the mould we've not really had before - a wing with genuine high-level NBA athleticism. Players with that attribute do not grow on trees.."
True in every respect. Is that what we need more than a fresh Mills and his own points to-boot?
This I found incongruous:
"What might the Australia - USA game have looked like in 2016 if you had a Mattise Thybulle to chase Carmello Anthony around, rather than a David Anderson?"
David Anderson is one of my all-time favourites. But, guarding Carmello? your example here is weak. And if Cotton was given that role, no doubt, he too would have been destroyed. Others/all, will do the job on any stud.
And:
"This team is great defensively, but you don't necessarily have that dog who you can sick onto a team's best wing guy, and concern him just with the business of shutting him down."
Delly can do "that dog" impersonations (should that be "imdogations?) when/if required. And with Goorjian coaching, none of his players will be inadequate on individual or team defence. No, we won't stop everything the world throws at us but we will be very good. And our defence improves with a fresh Patty (No, I don't think he is a liability on D as some-one else posted).

Isaac, can I include you?

"On the other hand, Thybulle is playing 20 MPG in one of the top teams in the NBA,(1.) and that team is doing well with Simmons and Thybulle as weak shooters"(2.).
1. Now, if we could recruit, naturalise and include Embiid then let's take Thybulle.
2. We will have 1 USA team as an opponent and several who are nothing like them. We will have more NBA inclusions than any-one else (USA may also have a few!). Thybulle would definitely be an asset but not more than Cotton, IMO.

"They'd still have Ingles, Mills, Broekoff, etc. around them."
Who are the "etc" you refer to? I can think of those mentioned above, CG, Sobey, Creek, Cotton. 1 of them, possibly 2. Cotton would be my first pick.

There are definitely arguments for both players and I think whoever gets in will do so because they fit the chemistry of the team. So I am not all too worried about the selection. Goorj is known to make some interesting choices, though. If we all remember to Russell Hinder/Luke Kendall fiasco at the 2006 World Cup we'd know he likes his own players so dont be surprised if something profoundly stupid happens, like Deng Adel getting a shot.

My biggest fear aside from players opting out is Goorj playing a grind style instead of the Spurs like ultra positive ball movement chemistry driven basketball that they've been playing. That style has been fantastic to watch and very effective. When you have Aussies playing especially likes of Delly you will get physical dogged defence anyway - so the lasts thing we want to do is play slow over structured grind it out style of Goorjs past against particularly Euro sides who grow up on that stuff and are the best in the world at it. It would be almost disastrous and has been in the past.

And yes Goorj has made stupid national selection decisions in the last. This time I think we are all expecting most players are fairly set and he’d need to do record level stupidness to throw in a random unexpected player.

In some senses Kay was like that but even then there were strong rumours that he was just smashing it at training and made such a strong argument that it couldn’t be denied. Frankly he delivered on it when it counted in the WCs too.

Putting that to the side. Debate is good! It’s the point of this place and it’s not stupid to argue for Cottons place in a boomers side because he is a damn good player.

With that said, I agree with ME and Isaac, they deliver many points I endeavour to push plus a little more.

I don’t believe Cotton is on Mills level talent wise, I don’t believe for a moment he could deliver what Mills does. Mills has a pretty staggering international record actually.

And I do think height and physical strength works against him. Mills we know there aren’t issues there, despite being a pocket rocket of sorts.

Let’s say you have Mills, Simmons, Delly spreading 80 minutes at the two guards spots. Let’s say you want to play Simmons and Mills ~ 30mins each. That leaves 20odd for Delly. Let’s say you might rejig and make Simmons a second big for defensive purposes mostly (I wouldn’t necessarily given our talented bigs), you’d end up giving another 5mins to Delly probably.

How much time does that leave the other guard?

Question is, is Cotton 1) fitting what we actually need and 2) able to deliver that X factor in 2-3mins, maybe 5mins if he’s lucky a game? And without touching the ball much and without having any semblance of control of the offence? Can he create a shot against stronger taller euros? How much of a defensive liability will he be?

I’d be surprised if someone like Goulding could repeat his heroic efforts but we know he’s pretty perfect in that scenario - and you say who can be our lockdown defender on a star? Probably Thybulle would be that.

Re Embiid - Baynes would be. Him, Landale, Kay, and possibly Humphries would work well with Simmons IMO.

If you’re zoning against Simmons - how do you defend Ingles? Run at him? He can drive. How do you defend Mills? Run at him? Bad move in NBA bad move in international basketball that can kickstart good ball movement or an easy jumpshot. Broekhoff? Ok you run at a tall three point shooter - you’d have to cheat on D to get to him. There’s a pick your poison element.

In WCs, Aussies didn’t have the depth and teams could focus on a few players like Mills and Ingles. Aussies still were just about the best. What happens when you add in Simmons that you have to put more than one player on or zone to the point of clogging up the basket - you add Broekhoff in and our "shooting" capacity will look so much better even if we have only actually added one sharpshooter in.

The arguments for Cotton are based really around him getting more time than he would get, more ball than he would receive and ignored defensive liability and lack of size which creates a hole vs euro sides which make up probably the majority of who Aussies actually need to face to win a medal.

It’s extremely hard to rockup cold and play a few mins and knock stuff down and get defensive turnovers - a player can be a star but not made out for that very narrow role. But that’s the role. Thinking otherwise would 1) be taking away from more effective players - that’s the honest truth, and 2) not taking into consideration how rotations would likely operate.

Ingles could see time at the point too. Gives us two guys 6'8" or bigger

KET has helped crystalize my point there. I don't see Cotton excelling in that environment. I am not saying it's impossible but I think you need to pick a player suited to the role they're going to have. Goulding has shown he can do that, so I am taking him as a safe bet. Experience should mean something and he has it in that environment.

Baynes/Humphries
/landale/motum (possibly Kay, split on that one)
Ingles/thybulle
Mills/broekhoff/Goulding
Simmons/Delly/giddey (possibly Sobey)

I don't really see a place for Cotton on a team like that. It's not a team dying for shooters. Thybulle and Simmons would really be the only non-shooters on the team. Sometimes it's good to have a player you can throw in and just put on a defensive assignment with basically no thought of their offense and that's what you have in Thybulle. Throw him on, and say "Batum... GET! GET BOY!"

If you want an extra shooter/scorer, what is wrong with Nathan Sobey? You can keep Thybulle as a defensive X factor and bring in a guy who gives you most of what Cotton does in scoring but who actually defends and hustles? Don't let Lemanis' misusing him at the Cup ruin his shot forever.

Outside of the Thybulle v Cotton debate, one area for concern for me is inside defense. Baynes will need a break. Can Landale and Humphries really hold down the fort inside? This is where an argument for Magnay could be made.

If it's Sobey v Giddey I would go with Sobey.
Giddey is improving rapidly and I see him as a lock from 2023 onwards.

I think the reason why Sobey isn't in many people's teams is just because he wasn't given minutes at the Cup. People are putting him in the 'Gliddon-Sobey' box. Sobey wasn't benched because he wasn't good enough, he was benched because games that should have been easy for us turned into grinds, and also because Lemanis tried to turn him into a point guard. He's a much, much better player now than he was then and it's criminal to keep pretending he wouldn't be a factor.

24 man squad.
But yes anon you are right.

Neither Cotton or Sobey are in the squad so that puts an end to it for now.

I can only laugh at the implication that Cotton plays a starring role in the NBL and therefore would not be capable of playing a supporting role as a Boomer. Quite ridiculous.
Hopefully all the paperwork comes through in time and it's something we need to at least consider. Even if Thybulle is the preferred option I would never bank on any NBA player being available for the Boomers.

It's a little more nuanced than that, Luuc. The question is can Cotton be efficient with small usage when offenses aren't run specifically for him?

" I can only laugh at the implication that Cotton plays a starring role in the NBL and therefore would not be capable of playing a supporting role as a Boomer. Quite ridiculous. "

That's not what people are saying though, you’ll want to calm your farm on that one.

The points made are:
#1 Mills, Simmons are the obvious starters, and Delly one backup - that leaves one backup spot and one 11/12th spot with the other 11/12 spot probably a big. Nothing ridiculous there - They’re clearly our starter guards and Delly very reasonably that first backup.

#2 Given we cannot have both Thybulle and Cotton (if Cotton became Aussie) - Thybulle fills a bigger hole than having a shooter and is obviously a Boomers level player - the bloke gets regular minutes in NBA, nothing ridiculous there!

#3 Choosing Thybulle, there are other shooting options available - Goulding, Sobey etc. Nothing ridiculous there.

#4 Goulding is just as capable of being a supporting Boomer - he has proven it in a very difficult role. Nothing ridiculous there.

#5 Given the factors and luxury in depth of talent, NBA talent like Exum gets overlooked by most of us and doesn’t even really factor as a best option. If Exum doesn’t get a look in, is it so ridiculous that Cotton doesn’t in a hypothetical full strength team where other shooters exist and Thybulles defensive type is rarer?

If a player like Mills was injured, the factors would change and we would probably slide Cotton and Exum in over Thybulle/Goulding.

There are a lot of players that we would say is laughable if they weren’t considered capable of a boomers supporting role, and they’re not being considered in a top 12 spot.

How many would not be surprised if we didn’t see Motum but equally wouldn’t be surprised if we did see Motum in the final team?

Punters aren't doubting his ability - stupid comment, unless you think he’s as capable as Mills is or Simmons is, which he clearly isn’t. After that you’re fitting puzzle pieces in - that’s why Exum etc aren’t shoe-ins!

I would be interested in how Cotton would go in 5-10mins max, without having control of the ball, with physically stronger euro types pushing him off balance, giving him less space and generally being more physical with longer arms. That’s the reality of what you contend with. Someone taller like Broekhoff may not be as dominant in the NBL but very much more capable of delivering at an international level/in Europe against those types of players.

Need to beat your competition, the competition aren’t NBL players, most opponents are eastern euros. They would be silly to not build a team that can’t beat them plus your Spain/France/USAs where the team is naturally well built to take them on anyway.

It's a little more nuanced than that, Luuc. The question is can Cotton be efficient with small usage when offenses aren't run specifically for him?

That's not what people are saying though, you'll want to calm your farm on that one.

I've said before I would take Gliddon over Cotton. He's not a better player obviously, he's just better at a particular skillset that could be needed at international level. Cotton would barely play at that level making his selection a bit pointless. Sobey would be a much better pick.

How good a player is has as much to do with the team they're on and the conditions of the competition as it does what that player actually brings to the table. And it is also fair to say that star players don't always translate into great role players. Team USA have plenty of examples of guys who were generational talents but that struggled to play bench roles.

I think it makes more sense to take Thybulle and for him to do exactly what he already does in the NBA than it does to take Cotton and expect him to alter his game to suit a higher competition and completely different expectations of his role. Not saying Cotton absolutely cant do it, but it seems a safer bet for me if I was choosing between the two.

I probably haven't read every single word in this thread, I just don’t remember interpreting anyone’s post that way - nor do I think mine translate that way.

" And I am still yet to hear any good reason why the answer to that would be no."

I get the feeling that Cotton would be physically too small against euro sides. I don’t think I’d bank on him staying on balance and having a clean shot against physical euros. That’s a good answer IMO.

That, plus Goulding’s WC, plus the benefit of having a Thybulle for defensive aspect where he’s the only player of that type - it’s the argument that has been made ad nauseum as to why Cotton isn’t an obvious selection.

There’s no knock about how good the bloke is. Exum I’m sure is bloody good too and nobody bothers to mention him anything further than “wouldn’t include”. Super talented team, lots of good puzzle pieces that can fit, it’s a rare luxury that we may never have again.

I do think Cotton will be in the next Boomers WC side.

Can't be bothered retyping - this from earlier post before I realised separate post on topic... Also - surprised not more support for Cotton (citizenship aside) - I do think Thybulle would have some sort of combination with Simmons but not sure if he is right fit. Boomers have never really lacked defensive combinations and intensity - something that Thybulle would also bring - however we have regularly lacked world class shooting when someone like Joe or Patty struggle due to being overplayed/having off night. To me Cotton would be ideal backup to come off bench and put up a few shots - regardless of his height would still be able to make his own shot against the long Euros... not a Perth fan (or hater!) - just feel he could make an invaluable contribution

Don't forget with the compressed schedule that you need to rest you stars. Cotton could easily play big minutes against lesser teams to get Mills & Delly rest. Thybulle has one distinct skill, that could probably only be played 10mins max every game, basically a situational sub / pinch hitter.

I don't think there are "lesser teams" in our pool. We've got Nigeria, that is going to have a lot of NBA talent, then we've got teams that advance from qualifications, which look likely to be Serbia and Croatia. I don't see a game where Mills is resting more than 10 minutes to be fair.

I'm going cotton purely because he will keep Mills fresh, split the minutes in the pool matches and then play patty 35 minutes in the crucial ones.

The team seems okay for lockdown D personnel to cover 40 minutes worth.

But again, this boomers side is nothing like previous years, Mills has been the focal point for so long we just assume it will be again but maybe that changes this year. Simmons will make other players better, Exum is expected to be back and fill some minutes in up.

We won't get out of the group

Does future funding for basketball depend on us getting out of the pool?

So who should have we appointed?

"Bogut is a massive loss.", but not one we won't overcome.

True, we do not have a Bogut this time but plenty to fill the gap left by his retirement.