koberulz
Last month

United Struggling with Ticket Sales

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Perthworld  
Last month

Time to cut the club budget... oh wait, they'll never do that.

Reply #844544 | Report this post


Lovebroker  
Last month

Not United but yesterday's SEM game had about 1.6k attendees.

That is horrible for Melbourne.

Reply #844545 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

When I coached juniors in Vic the amount of "free ticket" emails we would get was a bit concerning.

Reply #844547 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

That happens when you have 500 home games in a season....

Reply #844548 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

It's because Afl is on, nbl started late

Reply #844549 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

#549 this is 100% correct

Reply #844551 | Report this post


koberulz  
Last month

You'd expect some drop-off due to the footy, sure, but this is bad.

Wildcats managed a near sellout while the Eagles were on just down the road at the same time.

Reply #844555 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

And again there is only one game in WA a week. There are plenty in Victoria but again the state got pummelled by COVID so it's not a total shock

Reply #844556 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

But Melbourne's population is much much larger than Perth's. Surely enough to fill footy and basketball stadiums?

And there was no footy game on Thursday but only 1200 turned up to see SEM. So what's the excuse there?

Reply #844557 | Report this post


STHEaster  
Last month

There would have been lucky to be 800 there last night. I'm not convinced the Phoenix have captured the towns imagination.

Low United crowds would worry NBL HQ. They’re definitely more established, but have also relied on free tickets to boost crowds plenty of times.

Shows we’d never be able to move the season and also again that every state outside of SA and WA have teams that are a worry.

Reply #844558 | Report this post


Perthworld  
Last month

NBL crowds in Melbourne were fine throughout the 80s and 90s during the traditional winter season.

Unfortunately history is being repeated with Melbourne clubs spending big but not generating enough revenue. United and Phoenix are repeating the same mistakes that sunk both Giants and Magic. It seems the mentality over there is to spend the most no matter the consequences.

Reply #844559 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

NBL was a novelty in the 80's and 90's. Still 10 teams in Victoria and people have done it tougher financially more than any other state through the COVID lockdown. Add the NBL Cup and I for one am not surprised no one is turning up

Reply #844560 | Report this post


LC  
Last month

This relates to a combination of things:

1. So many games in Melbourne this season - oversaturation
3. Midweek games are tough to draw a crowd
4. The season has run well into the AFL season
5. NBL1 season has also now started - there have been some very good crowds around at this level (Big V is also well underway).
6. COVID-19 legacy - some people just do not want to go out and into a large crowd or cannot afford it.

As a parent of VJBL kids, there is no way I a taking my kids on a school night to an NBL game, I can't on a Friday night, and on Saturday nights/Sunday afternoon we also have choices of AFL and NBL1.

Tough market right now.

Reply #844561 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

"You'd expect some drop-off due to the footy, sure, but this is bad."

This is exactly what I would expect, being someone from Melbourne. The test will be next season when it gets back closer to a regular schedule and there is no saturation from having the NBL Cup in Melbourne.

Reply #844562 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

There are too many games with only 9 total teams. Not enough variety to have this many games. Yes, the NBL Cup might be a dream for the hardcore fan - but the casual fan might be already sick of it.

Reply #844563 | Report this post


KET  
Last month

Ticket giveaway in itself doesn't mean they're struggling to sell tickets. NBL clubs have radio giveaways for just about every game.

I'm not saying they aren't struggling, as I could very well see why they could given there has been so much NBL in Melbourne + AFL season in full swing.

But radio giveaway =/= struggling to sell tickets.

Nothing to see here!

PS. Adelaide 36ers give away loads of free tix for every game they play.

Reply #844566 | Report this post


koberulz  
Last month

Giveaways normally offer you a chance to win a limited number of tickets. This is guaranteeing two tickets to every single caller.

Reply #844567 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

The NBL Cup that was such a massive advantage to the Melbourne teams according to many here has actually ruined the value perception of NBL tickets in the eyes of many, so now the 2 Melbourne clubs struggle to sell their tickets at normal price.
Add the AFL season grabbing people's interest, and there you go...

Reply #844573 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

Also with the NBL Cup, the casual fans who only go to a couple of games per year have had their fill cheaply...

Reply #844574 | Report this post


Kb_24  
Last month

To much game with this pandemics..They need stick to 28 games..

Reply #844581 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

Vince left
Ticket sales down
Coincidence?

Reply #844584 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

NBL Cup was a terrible idea, it didn't really need to go ahead. Ended up being way too many games in Melbourne and as mentioned, 9 teams makes for limited variety.

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Anonymous  
Last month

"Giveaways normally offer you a chance to win a limited number of tickets. This is guaranteeing two tickets to every single caller."

I think I've seen that before, that every caller (that gets on air) wins something. Not sure how long the show lasts or how many calls they normally take though. If they had 10 callers through the show, then that's 20 tickets given away which isn't that massive in the scheme of things.

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Anonymous  
Last month

So its pretty much the AFLW without the big gov grants

Reply #844593 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

Currently on in Melb
2 NBL teams
2 A-League
9 AFL
1 NRL
20+ NBL1
40+ BigV


Normally NBL competes against Cricket and A league.

Why travel into the city to watch basketball when you can head locally to catch a game and not have to pay for parking.

Reply #844594 | Report this post


Perthworld  
Last month

Again the NBL repeat the same old mistakes. Oversupply of the product and overspending by Melbourne clubs.

When the league moved from winter to summer it resulted in back-to-back seasons which resulted in supporter fatigue with many members not renewing and forever lost to the game.

The same thing has happened this season in the Melbourne market with NBL Cup on top of a city recovering from COVID lockdowns. The question is going forward will these Melbourne teams rationalise their spending or will they continue recklessly until they go broke? The one thing you can do is control expenditure, but Melbourne sporting pride seems to always get in the way and ultimately the undoing of their franchises.

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Anonymous  
Last month

Nothing wrong with the hub, it was a judgment call in case the season had to be canceled, games were played. Hindsight is a great virtue but it probably should have start the hub in early December and season would be drawing to a close now. Congratulations to nbl for making it happen, was always going to be tough once all the winter sports started.
I for one being a basketball first fan am enjoying every minute of it.

Reply #844605 | Report this post


Perthworld  
Last month

I for one being a basketball first fan am enjoying every minute of it.

For us hardcores it's great. Too bad no one else is, which is the issue at hand.

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KobeStoolz  
Last month

If it becomes a habit to give that many tickets away then people who would otherwise have paid to go will just grab some freebies

Reply #844610 | Report this post


KET  
Last month

36ers tix prices are extortion

Reply #844611 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

"You'd expect some drop-off due to the footy, sure, but this is bad.

Wildcats managed a near sellout while the Eagles were on just down the road at the same time."

LOL you have two teams in your state, we have triple that.. koberulz with a bad take no surprises here

Reply #844617 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

SEN has part ownership in United also, whats wrong with them promoing their team?

Reply #844619 | Report this post


Perthworld  
Last month

I'm pretty sure Melbourne had roughly the same amount of teams in the AFL during the 90s and their NBL crowds managed.

Reply #844621 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

The big crowds only went to Magic/Tigers. Every other game drew squat hence why they are all gone.

Reply #844622 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

They refuse to acknowledge their tigers history. Pretty sad.

Reply #844626 | Report this post


Yinka Dare  
Last month

I'm struggling to follow the nbl over the last few weeks and I’m a passionate supporter. Just hard to get into it this season

Reply #844628 | Report this post


Perthworld  
Last month

The big crowds only went to Magic/Tigers. Every other game drew squat hence why they are all gone.

The poorly attended games back then weren't as low as what we are seeing from the attendance figures that a season. At the same time United seem to be spending even more than the Magic super team were back then (which led to their downfall). That's what's scary.

Reply #844643 | Report this post


Perthworld  
Last month

from the attendance figures this season.*

Reply #844644 | Report this post


Kobedroolz  
Last month

They are not coming because Mitch Creek!

Reply #844660 | Report this post


sixtiesrockstar  
Last month

NBL Cup probably had a massive impact on games. Stupid to have a mini tournament which is actually part of the season. Families who might go to 3-4 games a season would've just got their fix during the NBL cup to help save money.
When you lockdown a lot of business for 3 months, people have a lot less money than they would in a normal year that you can't just get back.

Reply #844667 | Report this post


Curtley  
Last month

NBL cup + AFL + Covid + out of season + subsequent poor media coverage = the reason.

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Anonymous  
Last month

I guess Perth have an issue shortly with crowds.

Reply #844736 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

People in Melb are subdued, still. Living simpler lives, doing less. Hard for non-Vics to fully understand, but it's real.

Add to that the economic hit many families have had, and an increased propensity to save rather than spend.

Add to that the reemergence of AFL after no games in Melb last year.

Add to that the restart of junior sport, and at times crazy and unpredictable timetabling of NBL games.

Add to that the massive devaluation of the product during the NBL Cup. A price was set, completely at odds of the cost of a membership.

A complete mess, all of which was foreseeable.

But the game is good, and it with withstand the above. Just need to reestablish a clear message to people around membership costs, game costs, timetable certainty and grass-root connection. It’s actually simple.



Reply #844739 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

My heart bleeds for them.

Reply #844744 | Report this post


LV  
Last month

Mostly this is down to

- oversaturation

- AFL being on

- Covid fatigue and subtly changed lifestyle after long lockdown means ppl less likely to venture out

AFL crowds down too.

Let's revisit this next season in what is hopefully a normal season. I'm not reading too much into this. We just had NBL double headers at John Cain every 2 days for almost a month

Reply #844746 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

Classic pile on LV, restating the views already expressed.

Reply #844747 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

LV should be happy. Majority of United games are in Victoria this season.
Anything less than a championship is a fucken failure.

Reply #844749 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

"AFL crowds down too." Due to COVID restrictions.

Reply #844750 | Report this post


LV  
Last month

It's not just covid restrictions

Consider

- most office workers now working from home 1-2 days/week

- religious services now online

- people generally avoid public places and events when mildly sick

Our lives have changed. We're creatures of habit. Habits and culture are now different

In the nbls case, combine this with having 50 nbl games in Melbourne over the last 3 months (or whatever) and competing with the footy and you've got a recipe for dismal crowds

Reply #844753 | Report this post


LV  
Last month

By services online, I mean church attendance is down as online is now an option many churches have opened up for their congregations

Reply #844754 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

AFL will get > 150,000 people at the MCG across 2 games within 18 hours this weekend. Will likely have the highest crowd in the world since COVID. Think their numbers are ok actually, and trending upwards.

What's amazing to me is that there are 11,000 kids playing rep on a Friday night (mostly in the SE), which indicates a huge number of people involved in junior basketball if you add the coaches and parents ... and yet we cannot get more than a few thousand turn up to watch the top end players in the NBL.

Fundamentally, it’s a cultural issue. We do not have a culture of watching and supporting basketball in the same way that we have in relation to football, where connections to clubs run for generations. Grandparents take grandchildren to the football today, because their own father took them to the football. That’s how deep the connection runs. Cannot have a generational connection to Melbourne United, who have been around for a few years, and less so for SEM who are not really a club yet and no-one can sensibly have any commitment to them. The result is not a surprise - fans will be flakey.

If we still had Tigers, Magic and Giants, then things might be different. Cannot change that now, but the reality is that there is no bridge between the past and the present, and that lack of a bridge necessarily impacts on the connection of fans to the current league. And in times of difficulty, that matters.

It is simple. It will take time.

Reply #844755 | Report this post


LV  
Last month

I haven't read any articles on afl crowds but If anyone has seen analysis please share

Reply #844756 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

^ mate you should be running the place - well summarised!

Reply #844757 | Report this post


LV  
Last month

[AFL will get > 150,000 people at the MCG across 2 games within 18 hours this weekend. ]

You would bloody well hope they get great crowds, it's Anzac day

Melbourne is undefeated into round 6 for the first time since the 1960's. Richmond has 100,000 members and reigning champs

The run of the mill games are not getting good numbers in Melbourne

Reply #844758 | Report this post


LV  
Last month

Spot on observations about culture and the generations too. The connections people have with United (and SEM who's 18 months old) don't run deep at all

Reply #844759 | Report this post


Kas  
Last month

"The connections people have with United (and SEM who's 18 months old) don't run deep at all"

Maybe your connections don't LV??

But mine do.

Was a Tigers member since the early 90s and then became a Melb Utd member - nearly 30 years a Melbourne member.

BTW - how many games do you go to LV ?

Reply #844762 | Report this post


LC  
Last month

Loads of diehard Melbourne Tigers supporters will never support United after the badly handled rebrand.

There is also a massive disconnect between NBL teams and grassroots levels.

Put simply, the teams and players do not do enough at school and club level to connect with the kids. COVID certainly prevented it and did not help anyone in any sport, but the AFL does this so well through Auskick and school visits. NBL teams in VIC do not get out and about anywhere near enough to build that connection - its certainly nowhere near as good as what they did in the late 80's and early 90s (plus there were more NBL teams in Melbourne back then).

Reply #844770 | Report this post


LC  
Last month

Loads of diehard Melbourne Tigers supporters will never support United after the badly handled rebrand.

There is also a massive disconnect between NBL teams and grassroots levels.

Put simply, the teams and players do not do enough at school and club level to connect with the kids. COVID certainly prevented it and did not help anyone in any sport, but the AFL does this so well through Auskick and school visits. NBL teams in VIC do not get out and about anywhere near enough to build that connection - its certainly nowhere near as good as what they did in the late 80's and early 90s (plus there were more NBL teams in Melbourne back then).

Reply #844771 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

"I'm pretty sure Melbourne had roughly the same amount of teams in the AFL during the 90s and their NBL crowds managed."



Actually, the crowds dropped away a lot, and was a big driver behind the move to summer. Anyone with a brain would take a deep breath and say let's look at NBL crowds next summer when it is back to usual scheduling.

If it continues to lag then there could be concern, but Melbourne people know that playing NBL at this time of year, after the over-saturation of the NBL Cup, was not going to work well for crowds.

The other factor for all teams is the lack of lead-in for promotions. The lowest NBL crowds of the year have traditionally been in the semi-finals because teams who don't get a great ride in local media can't promote them in other ways over a long lead-in. With the changing fixture this has become an issue right across the regular season.

Reply #844777 | Report this post


PeterJohn  
Last month

"NBL crowds in Melbourne were fine throughout the 80s and 90s during the traditional winter season."

In the 1980s, there was no AFL, only state leagues (SANFL, WAFL, VFL etc.), with the expanded VFL arriving in 1987. The VFL (expanded or not) played games in Victoria predominantly on Saturday and Sunday afternoons (kicking off ~2pm), while the NBL played its games in Victoria predominantly on Friday and Saturday nights (tip off ~7pm). Late Sunday afternoon games, when they were played, usually started ~4pm or so.

In the 1990s, AFL arrived and played an average of 5 games a week in Victoria - the same as now. Those games predominantly were still played on Saturday and Sunday afternoons, still kicking off ~2pm. The AFL's experiments with evening and night games in the 1990s occurred at interstate venues (SA, WA, Qld and NSW). They played some Friday night games in Melbourne and these became more regular in the late 1990s. Thursday night and Saturday night games started turning up regularly in Melbourne from 1999.

The NBL switched to summer season in 1998/99, to get away from AFL, because the crowds had been falling through the 1990s. That partly reflected the expansion of the AFL and its increased capture of the live sport and tv sport market in the second half of the 1990s. In 1999 AFL really changed up the days and start times of games in Victoria as well as other states. As a result, this year we have a lot more direct clashes between game days and times for NBL and AFL in Victoria.

So you're comparing apples and oranges when comparing the AFL vs NBL situation of 1980s/90s with that of 2021.

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Anonymous  
Last month

^^ exactly, well said Peter-John.

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Anonymous  
Last month

If United are struggling for crowds surely the Phoenix are far worse?

Reply #844785 | Report this post


Perthworld  
Last month

You're comparing apples and oranges as well PeterJohn since the NBL landscape has changed in Melbourne with effectively two new franchises with no history playing at present. You've basically got no loyalty other than from the rare Tigers fan.

In the 90s you could still trace the Giants and Magic (and Saints and Spectres) back to their original associations. These links either don't exist or have been severed with United shedding their Tigers history. Now even both rugby codes, non-traditional sports in Melbourne, can boast of having a franchise with more history. All of the goodwill of the 90s has been pissed away with the constant reshuffling.

If the Wildcats and 36ers went under in say 1999 and after several years NBL franchises there were relaunched/collapsed/relaunched with new names there would be a struggle for attendance as well. If Perth's present team was now for example the Bandits established in 2014 would I care? No.

I think COVID has exposed how low the membership base of United and Phoenix truly was. Especially United's. There has always been a suspicion of mass ticket giveaways to junior associations and via competitions. The rest casuals. How much of United's 10k crowd was actually paying on a regular basis?

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Hoopie  
Last month

LC, your comment about the NBL players needing to get out into the community is only partially correct.

I believe that Phoenix does a lot of this kind of thing, probably cos they need to build a brand quickly.

United, on the other hand, seem to have priced their involvement too high. The best our club could get for our camps a couple of seasons ago (and for a high fee) was an end-of-the-bench guy who had rarely been on the court. We passed.

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Anonymous  
Last month

"LC, your comment about the NBL players needing to get out into the community is only partially correct."


It's mandated across the league I believe. The crowds in 2019/20 show the league is in the right direction, the things that have changed are due to COVID, eg time of the season, number of games and time between games and the uncertainty of the fixture.

Those are the things that need to be fixed to get crowds back to the previous level.

Reply #844795 | Report this post


Concerned Fan  
Last month

The biggest issue for me is there is no connection to the clubs at a grassroots level. There should be certain clauses in imports contracts and the high value locals as well to go to schools and show up for camps and clinics. I can only speak from the time spent in Vic but I've never seen any of the big names show up to anything and the price as stated above is to high for smaller clubs to bare. Why then would they expect loyalty or support just won’t happen. Perth and even the 36ERS are great in those areas of connecting and sending players to these events. I think United continues to drop the ball in this department and you will see more and more lower level clubs say no to there appearance fees. I love the NBL and basketball overall but they need bring in a sub-committee to help bring in new fresh ideas and help reconnect the clubs and schools for more support.

Reply #844812 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

"I think United continues to drop the ball in this department."

Why were their crowds so good in previous years before COVID then?

Reply #844820 | Report this post


LV  
Last month

[Maybe your connections don't LV??]

I was a Tigers/ United member from 2001 to about 2017. Used to work for the Tigers on a volunteer basis, wrote for the website, produced a podcast for a while (2005/06).

Travelled interstate to watch the team several times. Went to most home games in the late Lindsay Gaze and Al Westover eras.

Gradually reduced my membership from full season down to 5 games.

Haven't been to a game since 2019 GF- different season of life and commitments now.

Although I maintained support through the 2014 rebrand, I've never felt the same connection to United as I did to the Tigers. There's not much history. I can recall being at the 97 GF, but that wasn't quite United. Almost but not quite.

My connection to my AFL team (St Kilda) is generational and much deeper.

My footy support is in my blood, it's lifelong and tribal. My basketball support isn't on the same level (even though bball is my favourite sport and even though I've been to way more Tigers/ United games than St Kilda).

You won't find many people with a lifelong connection to United. Half the Tigers fans hate United, others, like me, maintain a connection but it's more lukewarm than it once was.

Reply #844876 | Report this post


LV  
Last month

To explain the difference between my support for United and my support for St Kilda.

I was at the 18GF when United defeated Adelaide for the title. I had a great night. After the game I went home to bed.

If St Kilda wins a premiership, you won't see me til at least Thursday. The bender will go on and on.

If United folds, I'd happily become an SEM fan. If St Kilda folds, I'd find it difficult supporting any other team and It would probably take me many years to support anyone else with much passion.

I think hundreds of thousands of Melbournians feel likewise about their footy teams. It's a lifelong thing. If you go to the footy, you're going to watch St Kilda, or Essendon, or Collingwood- the team you've loved for as long as you can remember. Whereas many basketball people go from tiny to time to "the basketball" without having that strong, deeply felt connection to the brand.

It's cultural.

Reply #844883 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

I can't say I'm shocked that LV supports St Kilda after seeing his attitude towards the Creek allegations.

Reply #844890 | Report this post


Perth fan.  
Last month

Stephen Milne flashback.

Reply #844891 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

LV just give it up. If my football team lost by almost 100 points to the struggling cats today I'd be butt hurt too. Nothing worse than dashed hopes and dreams

Reply #844892 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

The great thing is the saints are never winning a flag

Reply #844894 | Report this post


LV  
Last month

Someone getting West Coast and St Kilda mixed up.....

Reply #844911 | Report this post


LV  
Last month

Of course our dreams have been dashed this season too, sadly.

Reply #844912 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

Apparently AFL crowds are lower than expected too. Might be a post-COVID thing.

"The AFL is hoping to see an improvement in attendances, with crowd figures down in Victoria as the public adjusts to post-COVID measures.

Even when the crowd cap was lifted from 50 to 75 per cent after just one round, the biggest turnout at the MCG this year so far was 51,723 for Carlton and Collingwood in round two."

Reply #844914 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

A New Zealand team playing in Launceston drew a bigger crowd than SEM at home this round. United not too much better.

Reply #844948 | Report this post


koberulz  
Last month

Perth had more people despite essentially being in lockdown, which makes both cities look pretty bad to be honest.

Reply #844950 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

Nothing else to do in Perth I am guessing.

Reply #844957 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

AFL had the largest crowd in the World since pandemic took hold. So, they're going ok. NBL on the other hand have torched their brand and value by putting on a cheap cup. A better move would have been to keep prices the same, but have a rebate from the Vic Gov. simple but I bet they didn’t explore.

Reply #844962 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

How would you even do a rebate thing. Sheesh. So many idiots, so many bad ideas.

Reply #844969 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

They got 75000, normally on Anzac Day they get 100000, still good but it's still 25% down.

Reply #844972 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

The crowd was limited to 80k and they got 78k

Reply #844974 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

So many people that really don't have their heads in the real world.
Equally 85,000 at the G and so many Anzac Day ceremonies across the country ruined because of stupid COVID rules.

Reply #844975 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

85K sheep

Reply #844978 | Report this post


Cram  
Last month

"I can recall being at the 97 GF, but that wasn't quite United. Almost but not quite."

No, not even remotely United.

Reply #844987 | Report this post


LC  
Last month

SEM have done a better job than United with school and club appearances: Agreed. They after starting from a lower base however as the new team on the block as someone else put it.

Yet charging for appearances and school clinics is a bit rich IMO when they want to build connections and sell tickets. From what I hear, it is rare to see one of the star players turn out from either Melbourne team at any club or school.

Back in the late 80's and 90's, there were no appearance fees. Players were out and about frequently at clubs and schools - including all the big names. They promoted kids to play with their local domestic clubs, and in turn clubs arranged night outs at the basketball in groups.



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Anonymous  
Last month

The NBL in Melbourne is battling big time!

no one is going to either United or SEM games and they are constantly giving tickets away to get people to actually go to games and even then people don't go.



Reply #844995 | Report this post


LV  
Last month

"No, not even remotely United."

It's been 7 years mate.

There's been ample time to build a bridge, cross that bridge and travel a long distance.

Reply #844999 | Report this post


Cram  
Last month

The 97 Tigers were a part of an association, with a volunteer coach and a history which could be traced back to the 30s with a handful of people.

How is that remotely like United?

Reply #845000 | Report this post


LV  
Last month

"The NBL in Melbourne is battling big time!"

I'm not sure that's been proven

I'd like to see an analysis of total crowds at United games at John Cain

United played a few in Bendigo but must've played at least 15 games at John Cain this season? They seem to be averaging 3,000 - 3,500 per game. So something like 50,000.

Now go back to last season. United would've had maybe 9 games at John Cain at the equivalent stage of the season. Averaging say 8,500. So say 75,000-80,000.

That's a big drop but probably comparable to the AFL crowd drop in Melbourne. More but not substantially more.

The talk today is how crowds are back in Melbourne after Anzac Day. But Melb vs Richmond had 56,000 on Saturday. The previous 3 years (2017 - 2019) there were 72,000, 77,000 and 85,000 in the equivalent game- and those were weeknight games (yes Anzac next day but people still had to come from work that day).

And in all of those years Melbourne was struggling (2017: 2-2 record and coming off 2 losses in a row. 2018: 2-2 and coming off a 67 point loss to Hawthorn. 2019: 1-4).

This year Melbourne was undefeated for the first time since 1965, and Richmond has won 3 of 4 flags AND the game on a Saturday night. And they got the lowest crowd ever since this annual fixture began in 2015.

So again, United aren't the only ones struggling to attract crowds in Melbourne.

Reply #845001 | Report this post


LV  
Last month

'How is that remotely like United?'

United IS the Tigers rebranded.

Like it or not mate, that's what happened.

United is not an entirely new club. The Tigers owners decided to rebrand. It's a continuation of the same club.

Of course, all Tigers people (myself included) would prefer if they were still the Tigers colors. But it is what it is, time to move on. And I must admit (until this season and COVID issues) the rebrand was looking quite successful from a crowd and public interest viewpoint. And for someone who was always more about the sport of basketball than the club, I reckon that's a good thing.

Reply #845003 | Report this post


Perthworld  
Last month

From what I hear, it is rare to see one of the star players turn out from either Melbourne team at any club or school.

In 1992 when the first Melbourne super team was assembled (Magic) the players infamously declined to continue with school visits because they were now "fully professional" and the owners didn't put their foot down. Not much has changed it seems - spending big isn't the only key to success but it's the only thing Melbourne franchises (Dragons and now United) are focused on. This mentality is what results in them eventually going broke. They seemingly never learn.

Reply #845004 | Report this post


AngusH  
Last month

Not necessarily basketball specific, but there is still hesitation from a lot of people I speak to in Sydney of congregating in big crowds, riding public transport, etc. Sitting in an indoor arena with thousands of strangers is a bridge too far for a lot of folks still, and given how hard Sydney and Victoria were hit compared to the rest of Australia it might be some time before the crowds return.

Reply #845005 | Report this post


LV  
Last month

"And they got the lowest crowd ever since this annual fixture began in 2015."

The previous low was about 58,000

The average of the 5 games to date was about 70,000. And again, those were weeknight games after people worked all day. And Melbourne has been a struggling club for 15 years with the exception of 2018 but that only started AFTER the Anzac fixture.

Based on previous crowds and Melbourne's form, if this game was pre COVID they get 90,000 people there. Instead they got 56,000. Now, yes 90,000 might've been unachievable due to a cap, but the point is they didn't even get anywhere near maxing out the possible crowd. Not even close. And this is the AFL, with all the tradition and associated Melbourne footy culture.

Reply #845006 | Report this post


LV  
Last month

"Not necessarily basketball specific, but there is still hesitation from a lot of people I speak to in Sydney of congregating in big crowds, riding public transport, etc."

I personally think this is an overrated reason. I don't sense much of this at all. People know COVID is only a threat when there's an outbreak. And there's only been one large outbreak in all of Australia in over 12 months, and that was mostly confined to nursing homes. People aren't fearful of COVID in my circles (and I have wide circles between work and family).

I think the issue is culture change. People's habits have just changed. We've become more homebodies a little more. Valuing a simpler life now that we've all had 12 months without all the busybusybusybusy that encapsulates modern lives.

I wouldn't be surprised if, sadly, sports crowds don't return to pre COVID levels for another 3 or 4 years if ever.

Reply #845008 | Report this post


Cram  
Last month

"United IS the Tigers rebranded."

No they're not. They're simply a new club using the same licence.

Ask yourself this: Would Andrew Gaze have coached the Sydney Kings if the Melbourne Tigers were still in the NBL? Would players be running around in Tigers retired numbers? Would the Tigers have played in heritage Magic uniforms?

United use the Tigers history when it suits them while at the same time throwing it under the bus when it doesnt.

The Melbourne Tigers play in the NBL1 at MSAC. Thats where you'll find Andrew and Lindsay Gaze.

"Of course, all Tigers people (myself included) would prefer if they were still the Tigers colors. "

The club is more than the colours. And as detailed above, this is no longer the Tigers.

"But it is what it is, time to move on"

No.

.."for someone who was always more about the sport of basketball than the club.."

Quite evident. And telling someone who does love the club to get over it? You can GTFO

Reply #845009 | Report this post


Cram  
Last month

"People aren't fearful of COVID in my circles "

A lot of people I know are still hesitant to go on public transport.

The best part about this is knowing my circles don't overlap with LVs

Reply #845010 | Report this post


AngusH  
Last month

"I personally think this is an overrated reason. I don't sense much of this at all. People know COVID is only a threat when there's an outbreak."

Yeah it's a good thing people are able to retroactively avoid hot spots they were at before anyone is aware there is any community transmission.

Me personally, I'm catching trains to the office and attending Kings' games in person, but I don't think a week goes by that someone I speak to doesn't voice some sort of concerns still about going out in public/confined spaces, which with how badly the state governments continue to handle quarantine shouldn't be a shock. Call it "fearful" if it makes you feel like a big tough guy, but that's how it is.

Reply #845011 | Report this post


Cram  
Last month

Lots of people I know, generally those with caring responsibilities, are concerned about the fact trains and trams here in Melbourne are now full of people without masks. This means if we do have an outbreak, there's a huge risk of it spreading on PT. When I go into the office now I'd say roughly half the people on my line are wearing masks.

Reply #845012 | Report this post


LV  
Last month

Not really a matter of opinion Cram. Not denying your comments, and it saddens me that Gaze no longer has a spiritual home in the NBL.

But the facts are the facts. The owners took the Tigers, rebranded them as "United" and away they went. They didn't sell the Tigers to someone else and go start a new club in competition with the Tigers. It was a rebrand, plain and simple. A comprehensive, extreme rebrand to be fair. But a rebrand by the same owners. Not a new club starting from scratch.

On COVID, I'd say 80% of people on my train line are wearing face masks.

Public transport numbers are obviously down, but that's because employers have embraced technology and most office workers are still working from home 1-2 days a week. I wouldn't read Covid concern into that specifically.

There has literally been one large outbreak in one of Melbourne's 5 or 6 large cities. Sydney has never had a decent sized outbreak! All recent outbreaks over the past 6 months have been contained to a tiny handful of cases. So being fearful of being in public is irrational in the extreme. I guess humans are prone to irrational fears but I don't believe the numbers of truly worried people is that high- unless or until there's another major outbreak.

Reply #845016 | Report this post


Zodiac  
Last month

Yet charging for appearances and school clinics is a bit rich IMO when they want to build connections and sell tickets. From what I hear, it is rare to see one of the star players turn out from either Melbourne team at any club or school.

Back in the late 80's and 90's, there were no appearance fees.


I didn't know both of the Melbourne teams were charging appearance fees for schools and stuff and I find that both offensive and cutting their nose off to spite their face.

If they were free those kids then get excited about wanting to go see x player live at a game and get mum & dad to buy tickets and then possibly those clubs have a supporter for life. Both clubs are run by idiots.

Reply #845018 | Report this post


LV  
Last month

"The owners took the Tigers, rebranded them as "United" and away they went."

The other key point for me is that Tigers/United were the only team in Melbourne for 5 years either side of 2014.

It's not like there was Club A and Club B, Club B went broke so the owners of Club A tried to capitalise by creating a new club.

No, the Tigers were the only game in town for many years. The Tigers owners renamed them United- for obvious reasons that, like I said, appear to have been justified from a commercial perspective despite hurting people like myself and Cram to different degrees. And then United was the only game in town for many years.

And of course SEM is the new "South East" club as they realise "Melbourne" has a stronger connection to Melbourne Tigers than anyone else.

Reply #845019 | Report this post


Cram  
Last month

"All recent outbreaks over the past 6 months have been contained to a tiny handful of cases. So being fearful of being in public is irrational in the extreme"

If a positive case gets on a train at the moment, it will spread much further than when everyone was wearing masks. That could happen easily. This isn't irrational fear, its a real possibility.

"But the facts are the facts. The owners took the Tigers, rebranded them as "United" and away they went. They didn't sell the Tigers to someone else and go start a new club in competition with the Tigers. It was a rebrand, plain and simple. A comprehensive, extreme rebrand to be fair. But a rebrand by the same owners. Not a new club starting from scratch."

So by that measure Seattle fans should just get over it and support the Thunder right? No?

BuT THeY MovED LoCATion!

Its just a bigger rebrand is it not? The owner decided to go in a different direction did he not?

That the Gaze family is not a part of United shows they are not The Tigers. Anything else is just you believing what you want to and choosing the "logic" based on that, like you do with literally everything in your life.

Reply #845020 | Report this post


Zodiac  
Last month

That the Gaze family is not a part of United shows they are not The Tigers.


Kind of irrelevant really, I know they were big parts of the Tigers history but if they choose not to remain with the club that's their business.

Whether you like it or not Cram United is the same club they just changed their nickname and colours. I've got no problem United claiming the Tigers titles because they are the Tigers but I was a bit miffed a few years ago when they wore Magic jerseys for a heritage round, United/Tigers have absolutely nothing to do with the SEM Magic they were two totally different clubs.

Reply #845022 | Report this post


Luuuc  
Last month

My connection to [my team] is generational and much deeper.
My support is in my blood, it's lifelong and tribal.
If [my team] wins a premiership, you won't see me til at least Thursday. The If St [my team] folds, I'd find it difficult supporting any other team and It would probably take me many years to support anyone else with much passion.

Oh, you lost your team?
Pffft... whatever. Time to move on.

Amazing.

Reply #845023 | Report this post


Cram  
Last month

"Kind of irrelevant really, I know they were big parts of the Tigers history but if they choose not to remain with the club that's their business."

They WERE the Tigers. And thats the whole point. They were a club with one person who was involved in a playing/coaching role for 50 years. If you think for a second that would have happened if they were still the Tigers, you're deluded.

And united can claim titles and not honour retired numbers? How does that make sense. Doing stuff like this and wearing Magic kits shows beyond doubt how tokenistic they treat the Tigers history. Its farcical.

People will say "get over it" all they want, but I won't and I don't care if people like LV thinks that makes me bitter. This is one wound that time will not heal.

In the meantime, I'll be at MSAC watching the actual Melbourne Tigers

Reply #845024 | Report this post


LV  
Last month

"That the Gaze family is not a part of United shows they are not The Tigers."

I never said they were the Tigers. I said it was more akin to a rebrand than an entirely new club.

"If a positive case gets on a train at the moment, it will spread much further than when everyone was wearing masks."

Again, 80% are wearing masks on my line. Perhaps this differs quite a bit.

"That could happen easily.

This isn't irrational fear, its a real possibility."

To some degree anything is possible. It's possible to get the AstraZeneca vaccine and wind up dead (or in hospital) too. More people have died from the vaccine than COVID recently in Australia. I'm not defending vax skepticism- just pointing out facts. Only one death from COVID recently and that was someone who caught it in PNG. But someone died from AstraZeneca clots last week.

(I will probably be getting vaccinated for the record).

Hop on a train in Melbourne or Sydney right now, what are your chances of getting COVID? Much lower than your chances of catching Gastro actually. There's been 400 odd gastro outbreaks at Melbourne childcare centres over the past few weeks. 400 outbreaks!

We should be more concerned about gastro than COVID right now. That's the more rational fear. Believe it or not!

Reply #845025 | Report this post


LV  
Last month

"Oh, you lost your team?
Pffft... whatever. Time to move on."

He didn't lose his team in the same way that he'd lose St Kilda if they folded (Cram is a Saints man too...)

The team continued the next season with the same coach (Anstey) and several of the same key players (Wortho- a Tigers star, Walker- a long time Tigers role player. And Tomlinson- who led the NBL in assists in the Tigers last season).

Reply #845027 | Report this post


Zodiac  
Last month

They WERE the Tigers. And thats the whole point. They were a club with one person who was involved in a playing/coaching role for 50 years. If you think for a second that would have happened if they were still the Tigers, you're deluded.


I'll be honest as much as I love Drewy and respect the whole Gaze family the biggest problem is they've always treated the Tigers like it was THEIR club. It happens with a lot of amateur footy teams where a family almost act like stewards of the club but at the end of the day the owner owns the club.

The Gaze family despite all the respect I have for them spat the dummy in a big way when the Tigers owners changed the name to United. That's on them they weren't the owners. It's a bit like Kevin Sheedy thinking he was the Essendon FC.

Reply #845028 | Report this post


LV  
Last month

"The team continued the next season with the same coach (Anstey) and several of the same key players "

And what's more, the last great Tiger (Goulding) returned for United's 2nd season.

Reply #845029 | Report this post


LV  
Last month

"It's a bit like Kevin Sheedy thinking he was the Essendon FC."

I have to agree with Cram here and point out that no, it's nothing like that. Not anywhere near it.

Reply #845030 | Report this post


Cram  
Last month

"The team continued the next season with the same coach (Anstey) and several of the same key players (Wortho- a Tigers star, Walker- a long time Tigers role player. And Tomlinson- who led the NBL in assists in the Tigers last season)."

Didnt Anstey only coach one game before walking? And he recently had that interview where he commented how poor the handling of the change was. Again, more respect for the Tigers.

I will admit one thing, being out of the country for most of 2005-2017 meant that i wasn't nearly as attached to the post-Gaze Tigers players. If I had, that may have made the whole thing harder for me, but there really wasnt anyone that ended up on the United roster that would even go close to swaying me. And fortunately I never saw Wortho play for the Tigers.

Reply #845032 | Report this post


KET  
Last month

" More people have died from the vaccine than COVID recently in Australia."

Such an irrelevant point not worth mentioning IMO. It's misleadingly narrow in scope.

The vaccine complications is something like 1 in 600k, in the absence of the benefits of vaccination, the risk of death from covid is a higher rate than 1 in 600k.

We don’t really know what the full information is on why the complications occur - typically in this scenario it ends up being less linked to vaccine than initially anticipated so it’s a wait and see on that.

“ We should be more concerned about gastro than COVID right now. That's the more rational fear. Believe it or not!”

There are lots of issues in the world - but covid is a pandemic where we don’t have much information and the more information we have the scarier it becomes including growing evidence of long term damage to the respiratory system - we can’t make assumptions that it’s something people just “get over” like a common cold, nor can we assume it will just “go away” from vaccinations especially with mutant strains that can very easily change the rules of the game for us.

Nothing irrational at taking Covid seriously!

I would also suggest, the more information you know about it, the more rational it is to take it seriously - if you ever have the benefit of chatting to a head of respiratory or an ENT, then the way you frame your argument will change pretty quickly and dramatically!

Reply #845034 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

All this thread proves is how little Perthworld knows... absolutely clueless.

Reply #845037 | Report this post


LV  
Last month

"There are lots of issues in the world - but covid is a pandemic where we don't have much information and the more information we have the scarier it becomes"

My point was merely about the relative risks of being in a public space.

Right now you have a significant chance of catching gastro and a miniscule chance of catching COVID.

Your chances of catching gastro at the MCG over the past few weeks has been many magnitudes higher than your chances of getting COVID.

“Nothing irrational at taking Covid seriously!”

I take COVID very seriously. But medical professionals understand COVID and also understand it’s not the only virus in the world. For example, the RCH was chock full of kids with a different respiratory illness in February and March (RSV).

No point being complacent but also no point misunderstanding the threat either. We are not in India with hundreds of thousands of cases a day. We're in Australia where there's been a small handful over the past 7 or 8 months in a country of 25 million. Do the right things sure, get vaccinated, wear a mask on PT. All good advice and helpful. But do keep your own risk level in perspective.

Reply #845038 | Report this post


LV  
Last month

[but there really wasnt anyone that ended up on the United roster that would even go close to swaying me.]

Lucas Walker's highlight reel didn't appeal??

Reply #845039 | Report this post


Cram  
Last month

He's all right. Would I follow a team for him? No

And as I said, I was out of the country for most of his Tigers career

Reply #845040 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

United has 1 tittle they can not claim the tigers Championships based on the bs they have done. There's a reason the players with true Tiggers History!!!! Don’t respect what’s been done this is evident. The politics are shocking and a big reason why the teams and league as a whole will continue to struggle.

Reply #845044 | Report this post


LV  
Last month

I rated Walker one of the most exciting Tigers ever to watch. And he'd been with the club 4 or 5 years at that point.

Wortho was a talent and a good one to observe if you're a basketball purist- he got plenty out of himself. The more you watched, the more you realised he was a smart player on the defensive end.

Tomlinson not noteworthy but, at his best, a crafty point man who looked to be just entering his prime (in hindsight, the 2014 season with the Tigers ended up being the high point of his career).

Tigers legend Anstey at the helm. Only lasted a game but then D-Mac took over- another Tigers legend who both won championships with, and coached the Tigers previously.

And then Goulding, the last truly great Tiger joined United for their 2nd season.

In other words, a huge Tigers connection.

But Cram, you’ve spent the last 20 years reminiscing the 90’s so I’m not surprised you found the corporate hypey United feel too much to stomach.

Reply #845045 | Report this post


LV  
Last month

And don't forget Barlow- a championship winning Tiger who joined United for their first season.

Reply #845046 | Report this post


Cram  
Last month

Nick Collison played a long time for both Seattle and OKC. Is that enough of a connection?

United are a made up club with a football name and an owner that has proven again and again to make things up as he goes along and to hell with oversight, history or integrity.

Reply #845047 | Report this post


LV  
Last month

Funnily enough that was the exact same criticism made of Seamus McPeake time and time again from 2002 - 2012.

I get the LK hate. But I just look at the big picture and I reckon he's done some great work for the sport in this country.

Reply #845050 | Report this post


Cram  
Last month

He's certainly put his money where his mouth is, so I'll give him that credit.

Beyond that its all speculative as to how much of the "good work" is sustainable.

Retiring the brand of the oldest club in the country certainly doesnt help, nor does the rebrand of the only foundation club left, the Hawks.

Reply #845051 | Report this post


LV  
Last month

Agreed- sustainability definitely speculative. But that's life in professional sports. Most non-AFL pro sports clubs in Australia are financially precarious.

But the big picture is the crowds and overall interest in basketball- not to mention accessibility with FTA and coverage- better than it's been in 25 years if not ever. So let's be happy with that.

Reply #845053 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

A lot afl clubs struggling, propped up by the two WA teams, Adelaide and a few big clubs out Melbourne and of course the big media money. It's the reason years ago that the vfl pushed so hard to make it afl, the vfl could not survive in Victoria on its own.

Reply #845055 | Report this post


LV  
Last month

And most AFL clubs are profitable with a significant revenue stream being non-football, most of it Pokies.

Sports is just not particularly profitable, so of course a 2nd/3rd string sport like NBL will struggle for financial sustainability. Especially in a time like this! Even the AFL used $30mil of it's $60mil slush fund last year.

Reply #845058 | Report this post


LV  
Last month

And they cut stacks of jobs too, as did the clubs

Reply #845059 | Report this post


Cram  
Last month

And yet Saints memberships are at an all time high. How does that compare with United memberships you think?

This is the difference between a casual brand and a club that you have history with.

Reply #845060 | Report this post


LV  
Last month

I'm not sure how much brand loyalty existed with the Tigers from the Gaze days.

McPeake destroyed a lot of that, with an unfortunate by-product of the Cage move and a hike in ticket prices being a huge drop in crowds and memberships to the point where 3,000 was considered a great crowd for many years, with the average being in the mid 2’000’s. Right now we’re lamenting United’s dismal crowds which are still close to 4,000 in many games this season.

St Kilda’s memberships are high off the back of pre season optimism and unfortunately will drop significantly for 2022. And crowds have been poor.

Reply #845061 | Report this post


LV  
Last month

"Right now we're lamenting United’s dismal crowds which are still close to 4,000 in many games this season."

And again thats with there having already been 15 odd United games at John Cain in 3 months.

Reply #845062 | Report this post


Perthworld  
Last month

All this thread proves is how little Perthworld knows... absolutely clueless.

It's like I'm the only one who knows and remembers what actually happened in the 90s. By all means though enjoy yet another LV vs Cram Tigers-United battle.

Reply #845063 | Report this post


LV  
Last month

On a very quick number crunch

- 15 United games at John Cain since Feb 20 (all games including "away" games)

- 1 game every 4 days approx.

- Average crowd appears to be approx 3,500

Total crowd approx 50,000 - 55,000.

2019/20- 17 games at John Cain. Once every 9 days approx.

This is the main reason for a drop in crowds per game- not COVID.

Over saturation- 36 games including NBL cup in Melbourne and NZ playing in Melbourne.

Barely anybody goes to a game every 4 days. Even the most fanatical of fans wouldn't get to 2 games a week.

Same thing happened in Big Bash when then went from 10 to 14 games. Lower crowd per game.

Reply #845071 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

"In 1992 when the first Melbourne super team was assembled (Magic) the players infamously declined to continue with school visits because they were now "fully professional" and the owners didn't put their foot down. Not much has changed it seems - spending big isn't the only key to success but it's the only thing Melbourne franchises (Dragons and now United) are focused on. This mentality is what results in them eventually going broke. They seemingly never learn."

This is correct and also it should be remembered that Perth did the same thing.

Reply #845073 | Report this post


Perthworld  
Last month

I'm not specifically blaming Melbourne teams for it, as everyone got too cocky during the league's peak, but at least the issue has been rectified by the Wildcats mandating appearances in player contracts, hence the "seemingly never learn" criticism re: United and other Melbourne super teams of its ilk.

Reply #845083 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

Will the Tigers rep team change to United?

Reply #845142 | Report this post


koberulz  
Last month

Why would they do that? The entire point of changing to United was to distance themselves from the rep team.

Reply #845149 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

The Wildcats were an integral part of the "no more schools stuff" make no mistake. The we are so good and professional line came at a time when the school stuff was kicking so many goals. Then nothing. Momentum lost for a few decades.

No everyone didn't get cocky. Other teams followed the Perth and Magic trend.

Reply #845150 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

Might be a more powerful rep team if they did.

Reply #845156 | Report this post


LV  
Last month

Every team should mandate basketball development opportunities in their contracts.

If United really is charging decent $$$ for someone like Sam Short or Dillon Stith, that's just short sighted. Pardon the pun.

Reply #845163 | Report this post


LV  
Last month

Appearances*

Reply #845164 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last month

Only 990 spectators turned up to the rescheduled A-League game last night in Melbourne. A new record low.

Reply #845198 | Report this post


KET  
Last month

NBL tickets are too expensive.

Don't expect them to be $10, but, $50 is ridiculous

Reply #845203 | Report this post




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An Australian basketball forum covering NBL, WNBL, ABL, Juniors plus NBA, WNBA, NZ, Europe, etc | Forum time is: 10:03 am, Tue 11 May 2021 | Posts: 874,841 | Last 7 days: 1,160