KET
Last week

Lemanis: NBL is uneven financial playing field

Lemanis called on the NBL to be more transparent about the money each club is able to spend on players.

I think it would be fantastic if all that was made transparent. Not individual player salaries but just total spend so that the public is actually informed, and fans have a realistic expectation on where their teams are going to finish at the end of the season and can get behind something else if it's not built financially to compete with the big boys.

"If the fans in Cairns think that they have the same chance of winning as the fans at Melbourne United, they are being misled.

“Fans want to know why you can’t recruit Jock Landale. Finances, basically.’’


https://www.adelaidenow.com.au/sport/basketball/nbl-2021-exiting-bullets-coach-andrej-lemanis-says-some-teams-are-no-chance-to-win-a-title-because-of-an-uneven-financial-playing-field/news-story/707571ab69a0c7ed01d735c5fc98940b

Some on here will baulk at the excuses, and clubs would baulk at revealing that information whether you’re a big club or a smaller club, it probably doesn’t assist them from a PR aspect.

It is a reasonable point though - who here wouldn’t want the NBL to release how much a club is spending on total player wages each year?

Topic #48684 | Report this topic


Anonymous  
Last week

It has always been.

Reply #852144 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last week

Poor old lemanis, making excuses.

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Zodiac  
Last week

Obviously we all know it's not a level playing field, look at United's roster especially their bench it would be better than some starting lineups but it's a bit rich that Lemanis is saying this given the Breakers spending when he was the coach there.

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Anonymous  
Last week

Consequences if you go over the cap.
He could have got a ns but he didn't. He chose Johnson then switched to bj, picked up overweight pAtterson. It’s lemanis fault they can’t compete. Bigs had down year along with Cadee, krebs n Drmic.

Reply #852149 | Report this post


Perthworld  
Last week

I'd like to know what the Breakers spent during Lemanis' time there between 2005 to 2013.

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ME  
Last week

This is excuse making at its finest. I've generally been supportive of Lemanis but he's underperformed as Bullets coach. He's made poor decisions with imports and overpaid and overvalued extremely average Australian players. He tried to make Sobey a point guard, which basically nullified his strengths as a player. Everyone knows the NBL isn't an even playing field, neither is the NBA or any other league. Deal with it.

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KET  
Last week

I don't know that it’s necessarily excuse making - seems to be him pushing the Bullets to spend more to compete.

You can always nit pick and say "should have covered your bases by doing this instead of that" but would those moves have made them genuinely competitive with the top clubs?

I don’t think it necessarily would.

Hawks have shown what a good coach can do with Goorj and Bevo in the past - but not sure Hawks today and Hawks of Bevo yesteryear are competitive to full strength United or Wildcats etc. Maybe Goorj will prove that wrong this year.

We have trekked through the competitiveness aspect of the difference in finances between big clubs and smaller clubs - this year financially stronger clubs brought in/kept guys like cotton, Magnay, Broekhoff, Landale etc.

I’d rather have those players be in the NBL then priced out of the NBL.

So that needs to be kept in mind when striking that balance of similar expenditure for competition sake and bringing in big talent which some can’t afford.

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KET  
Last week

Than*

Reply #852157 | Report this post


LV  
Last week

Most of us here would be very interested in this information but it won't ever be revealed.

Realistically, Perth, United and Sydney have been the big spending clubs in recent years, with SEM and NZ dabbling with some big money too. Is it any wonder these are the teams competing for the title? No it's not.

But it's not realistic to expect a comp like the NBL to be totally equal as far as finances etc.

Reply #852162 | Report this post


ME  
Last week

My question is, what would Lemanis want: For the big spending clubs to be forced to spend less to give the lower spending clubs a chance? Yeah, that'd be great for the league. Let's keep talent OUT of the league.

Or conversely, let everyone know what team spend is? Well they can lead to people just assuming their team cant compete, even though Cairns last year, Illawarra this year, and many other teams have proven that budget is not the only factor in making a successful team.

Let's call it what it is - Lemanis shirking responsibility for underperforming as Bullets coach. He may not have had the biggest budget but he's made eyebrow raising decisions with his player choices, rotations, and how he's used the talent he has.

Reply #852167 | Report this post


Bol  
Last week

A hard cap could make for a more level playing field but a lower overall standard of the league. No thanks to that. The model of a luxury tax to help prop up the less financially strong clubs to compete with the big boys is a good one. I'd like more transparency as to where and how much of this is being dispersed to clubs.

Reply #852168 | Report this post


KET  
Last week

Even if you view it as excuses, there still are legitimate points there.

Problem is, there isn't an obvious solution.

You want the best talent but you also want similarish spending for competitiveness. For now, they do contradict.

Trying to ensure comparative resource spend doesn’t mean teams won’t have cultural advantages or chemistry advantages that they’ve built or getting the right person whilst others may miss the mark on talent. They’re all in built factors that should exist and should differentiate clubs.

I do think the NBL is getting closer to it - Adelaide reportedly spent a fair bit, Hawks are more cashed up. Leaves Cairns/Brissy probably needing to find ways to get greater investment. Cairns that may mean restructure and get that private investment.

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Anonymous  
Last week

Hawks spent top dollar this season, Adel and Bairstow were top coin. Harvey as well. Yes I know Adel and Bairstow didn't work out but they still spent.

All leagues have the haves and have nots, Lemanis pointing out Brisbane need to spend more and not over spend on average Australian players.

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Curtley  
Last week

Not sure of what exact rules with marquee locals is but if the kings can field 5 players on court of which four are American (including K Lisch) and Didi last year then not only are they likely over spending but are also taking advantage of loopholes. Closing these loopholes is a better idea to keep talent in the NBL rather than enforcing the cap.

If a marquee Aussie is recruited I believe teams should be limited to two imports and guys like Didi need to be considered an import in their second year.

Reply #852172 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last week

It's not an excuse. Clubs need to support player development and their pathways. Grow the crop and make the crop want to stay in those pastures. Joey Wright was finally getting it right but now it's a mess for Adelaide for the forseeable future. Local guns will go to the highest bidder, with the best coaching and development. There is no loyalty now and the reputation of the 6ers is shot.

Cairns did it and were winning competing for championships, New Zealand did it and the same thing which Lemanis benefitted from. $$ differences will always be there but that's no excuse for smaller market teams in the NBL. Do your job, do it well, have a longer team strategic vvew and you will build something special.

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Anonymous  
Last week

Hawks also got a 3rd import for free thanks to him being a pretend next star

Reply #852175 | Report this post


Orange Army  
Last week

I'm a Cairns supporter and I know each season we cant win it but just hope we are competitive. We get a good young player come through and the big city clubs say thanks very much.

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Cram  
Last week

Lemanis raises some great points. Transparency has always been a problem for this NBL management group in everything they do.

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MACDUB  
Last week

"but it's a bit rich that Lemanis is saying this given the Breakers spending when he was the coach there."

Exactly - the owners during his tenure (the Blackwells) openly said they didn't seek to make a penny from the Breakers and were running it a breakeven or a small lost (as winning/the non-financial aspects were more important for them).

I certainly think Lemanis didn't have the most financial freedom throughout his tenure - I remember that 19-20 season, they had some absolutely b-grade imports.

However, the simple point to that is that when Lemanis took the reigns at Brisbane, he must have known that was a possibility for a re-entering team, and he would have known the potential financial limitations. Bit rich.

Also, the team he had in 2016/17 in their first year wasn't that bad - and he totally bottled it. They won like 10 of 30 games or something?

Reply #852190 | Report this post


koberulz  
Last week

I love how Lemanis is saying the exact thing everyone on here has said for the past five years, but suddenly it's unreasonable just because it's Lemanis saying it.

Reply #852200 | Report this post


woody  
Last week

He is not wrong at all. I honestly think all the players salaries should be made available to the public like the NBA, if it is legal? About 5-6 years ago when the NBL was being revamped there was talk of this. Once clubs like United see a player do well in a small market they just grab them right away. Sobey and McCarron were developed in Cairns then go off right away. The NBL definitely needs to be more transparent with this. Even the points capping System was more transparent.

Reply #852204 | Report this post


D2.0  
Last week

Yeah, moving forward, it would be nice to see more transparency. But I guess they have to be careful. I'd love them to publish how much each club spends, how much tax they pay, and how that tax is used.
But the problem is the Marquees.
If they publish that say MU's "taxable salary" spend was $X, people will rightly point out that it counts only $150k(?) of Landale's money, and continue to speculate about how much he's getting.
But if they publish actual spend AND tax paid, we'll be able to calculate backwards to see how much their Marquee(s) received.

So, I would like to see them publish:
> Total Player Salary spend by team.
> Top 5 Player Salary spend by team.
> TOTAL Salary tax paid across the league.
> Distribution of said tax.

Reply #852206 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last week

Players salaries is there business, but yes team spend break downs should be shown.

Reply #852208 | Report this post


Hopscotch 55  
Last week

What we've got..

Top level: Perth, Melbourne, Sydney, NZ

Midrange: SEM, Brisbane, Adelaide

Low End: Illawarra, Cairns

What you need..

Top Level: Perth, Melbourne, Sydney, NZ, Brisbane, Adelaide
Midrange: SEM
Low End: Illawarra, Cairns

If the other top level/midrange organisations could draw the kind of support Perth does - and they should, each being a capital city team with a large potential market.. they'd have the funds to support high calibre teams, and could afford greater financial transfers to Illawarra, Cairns and SEM. (With the idea of weaning SEM from such transfers).

So IMO the blame is on any of those teams with large markets that have failed to capture the hearts of their cities. Perhaps Sydney and Brisbane have too many options beyond Perth (i.e. +rugby) - but then again, they have higher populations, much larger in the case of Sydney.

Reply #852214 | Report this post


Cram  
Last week

We don't need individual player salaries, except, perhaps for marquees at the most.

Total player spend (including any amounts covered by the league) and the amount of luxury tax paid by each team (and how that tax is distributed) would be sufficient.

I doubt this ever happens though. The NBL likes to keep things deliberately vague, for example the rules on eligibility and payments for next stars, that way it can change said rules without notice to suit their narrative.

Reply #852219 | Report this post


LoveBroker  
Last week

Let's look at some of the players Lemanis have chosen in the past few years.

Dolla Beal
Jeremy Kendle.
Stephen Holt.
Alonzo Gee
Spudee
AJ Davis
Nanna Egwu
EJ Singler
Taylor Braun
BJ Johnson
Harry Froling
Patterson (even fatter 2.0)

Its not just the league disparity, its also his choice of bad players.

You don't need BIG money to be competitive in the NBL.

A few seasons ago, both Melbourne and Sydney (the top 2 spenders) missed the playoffs, in their place were the bottom 2 spenders in Cairns (2nd place) and Illawarra (4th). First place was Adelaide who were not big spenders either. The Hawks actually made the grand final.

Last season Cairns finished 3rd and United 4th.

This season the Hawks are 3rd and likely going to the Grand Final without even a Marquee player.

On the balance of probabilities, money helps but it is no guarantee of success, see Gaze's Kings and Demopolous' United.

Reply #852224 | Report this post


Cram  
Last week

Yes, money spent is only one issue, and you can find individual seasons to show low spending teams performing well and vice versa. Over time though, you see the only champions in the last 10 years being Perth, NZ and United, who probably spent the most money over that time.

Reply #852225 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last week

Illawarra spent big this season, I don't no why everyone is saying they were low end.

Reply #852230 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last week

Yes, Hawks definitely high end. Goorj doesn't sign on unless good money is being spent on players

Reply #852237 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last week

SEM would be top tier spend this year, especially after adding broekhoff

Reply #852243 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last week

Take out Cairns and the difference between the top and bottom clubs won't be that great. Melbourne attract players as do Perth because they are winning organisations. Hopson reduce his salary substantially to play for United. Guys like White, Peatling, McDaniel and even JLA have been unknowns or improved heaps. Barlow is Barlow and cost very little but carries his weight. Perth is the same, yes Cotton and Mooney cost some coin and a few others are on reasonable money but the rest just just play hard for winning and less money.

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Anonymous  
Last week

Melbourne is a winning organisation? News to me.

Reply #852249 | Report this post


Bart Jr  
Last week

If team salaries were revealed each season it would simply mean the richest teams would be hated a bit more by opposition fans, it wouldn't actually change the inequality. Points system was pretty good while the NBL was in a serious rebuilding phase but may not suit today's climate.

Apparently in some Euro leagues there's a 3 import rule but only 2 can be on court at once.

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LoveBroker  
Last week

Over time though, you see the only champions in the last 10 years being Perth, NZ and United, who probably spent the most money over that time.


What you say is true.

This brings it back to a fundamental question, what is success?

Do you think that if you don't win a championship you have failed?

I think the answered is nuanced.

Cairns and Illawarra off the bottom of the ladder would be considered OK, making the playoffs would be considered a great success.

Perth, Sydney and Melbourne missing playoffs would be considered complete failures. Making the playoffs would be considered a C grade. Making the GF a B grade. Winning an A.

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Anonymous  
Last week

SEM are a budget team. Broekhoff came cheap because he has a relationship with the coach and he needed to play and wanted to be near extended family (sth east Melbourne)

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Anonymous  
Last week

Broekhoff should be cheap.

Reply #852262 | Report this post


Perthworld  
Last week

This is excuse making at its finest. I've generally been supportive of Lemanis but he's underperformed as Bullets coach. He's made poor decisions with imports and overpaid and overvalued extremely average Australian players. He tried to make Sobey a point guard, which basically nullified his strengths as a player. Everyone knows the NBL isn't an even playing field, neither is the NBA or any other league. Deal with it.

Nailed it.

Lemanis has basically chucked a childish tantrum before leaving the NBL and the country. How ungrateful, if it wasn't for the Blackwells in the first place who could've easily sacked him he would never be in the position he is in now to complain. Instead of turning it into a springboard where he wouldn't be a one-hit wonder he spent all of his time in Brisbane recruiting ex-36ers players and on that weird Sobey experiment. Awful.

Reply #852265 | Report this post


Bolt  
Last week

Cairns almost made the GF last year and you still shat on them Spudbroker. You're allergic to common folk and that’s ok...

Reply #852267 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last week

You go check other threads from this site and majority of you on here has said something similar what a bunch of hypocrites

Reply #852302 | Report this post


Perthworld  
Last week

Hoops is consistent though as we've been discussing parity on here for forever and
day including during the Breakers three-peat run when the league was dominated by NZ and Perth.

On the other hand there wasn't a word of criticism coming from Lemanis back then as it was all good as he was winning, not a peep was said. He's the hypocrite.

Reply #852303 | Report this post


Perthworld  
Last week

Hoops is consistent though as we've been discussing parity on here for forever and a day including during the Breakers three-peat run when the league was dominated by NZ and Perth.

On the other hand there wasn't a word of criticism coming from Lemanis back then as it was all good as he was winning, not a peep was said. He's the hypocrite.

Reply #852304 | Report this post


Lovebroker  
Last week

When we talk of parity, isn't there a strong element of parity this year in that the bottom 2 teams on the ladder last season are in the playoffs this season.

Sydney who are big spenders are not in the playoffs at all.

Reply #852307 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Last week

Last year's Hawks team is not the same as this year's Hawks team.

Reply #852309 | Report this post


PyroCross  
Last week

Yes, the NBL is uneven.

But I thought the Bullets brought in American ownership (to be specific, NBA player ownership) to increase spending for the purpose of winning.

I would've thought Lemanis could've gotten extra dollars from Kevin Martin?

Reply #852454 | Report this post




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