Anonymous
Earlier this year

Dean Blames Refs

"The contact was just not the same for the things that he got called for and the other things that are going on on the floor," Vickerman said about Landale's treatment by the referees.

"We need him on the floor and I hope that they look at this game and say yes, we got some of those (calls) wrong because I believe they did."

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Anonymous  
Earlier this year


"I don't understand why they changed the two referees in the middle of the series. It was a totally different game to the other night, are we meant to adjust to the referees?"

Reply #853049 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Stop press: Losing coach complains about refs..... Move on…

Reply #853050 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

I hope they do review the footage and realise they were right, he's not doing any favours to Landale by trying to get him favourable decisions, play correct defence.

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Anonymous  
Earlier this year

I'd like to know how Wetzell got away with multiple elbows/offensive fouls as well. He got away with a lot more than Landale

Reply #853053 | Report this post


LV  
Earlier this year

I'd have to watch again to see whether Landale got screwed over within the context of this game

My impression was the refs called every soft foul they could find- in contrast to a typical game where plenty go uncalled- and Landale was caught in the crossfire by SEM driving at him, slight contact and whistle

Probably gamesmanship by Vickerman and hoping for the result Perth got in game 2- less fouls called on them

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JMS  
Earlier this year

Is 50+ fouls in a game a good result? In my opinion the game was over-officiated. In a finals game the refs should realise there is going to be additional contact and let the game go.

Reply #853057 | Report this post


LV  
Earlier this year

I wonder if these were the same refs behind the 27 fouls called on United (but only 15 on Sydney) in game 3 last year

Could be a sub plot underlying Vickerman comments

Reply #853058 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

I agree it was over officiated.
Neither team adjusted which was strange.
It made the game uglier to watch but at least it was about the same both ways.

Reply #853059 | Report this post


Scout  
Earlier this year

Did the refs influence the result is that what Dean is saying?

Maybe give credit where it's due, SEM had a plan to take it at Landale that worked and turned up to play.

Don't support either team. Reckon there is some whinging going on.

Reply #853060 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

The 5 fouls I saw on Landale were all there. Perhaps Dean needs to learn the rules and actually ref a game at NBL level and see how it goes.

Reply #853061 | Report this post


Perthworld  
Earlier this year

Dean is deflecting from his continual underachievement.

Reply #853064 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Nice try LV. Different crew from Semi Final game 3 last year. Bad luck

Reply #853068 | Report this post


koberulz  
Earlier this year

Is 50+ fouls in a game a good result? In my opinion the game was over-officiated. In a finals game the refs should realise there is going to be additional contact and let the game go.
That was the philosophy in 2013, and the Breakers beat the Wildcats 70-66 in game two of the grand final.

People complained about how ugly and low-scoring it was.

Reply #853069 | Report this post


KET  
Earlier this year

Aslong as they're consistent and calling things reasonably, that’s what we want.

Don’t want inconsistency or letting everything go. Also don’t want over officiating

Reply #853071 | Report this post


LV  
Earlier this year

Today's game illustrated an idiosincracy of basketball

We had a situation where the best player on the court could only play a third of the game, because he committed 5 actions that were deemed illegal. But none of them were deemed intentional, unsportsmanlike, excessively physical, fraudulent (eg Flopping/Diving) and none of them involved abusing an official or disputing a decision.

Is there any equivalent in any other sport? Not that I’m aware of.

Eg: In netball there’s no limit on the number of "contact" violations. Soccer and rugby have sin bins or yellow/red cards but those are infringements that involve elements going beyond the standard penalties in those sports. They’re more equivalent to basketball’s USF. In AFL you can commit 10 free kicks and remain in the game, or even knock somebody out.

Not that I’m suggesting any alternative, but it does seem an unusual element of basketball that can occasionally result in people being a bit unlucky - eg the best player from Game 1 and best player on the championship favourite barely plays in Game 2, without doing a whole lot wrong. Just some soft contact including some 50/50’s that went against him. It’s a unique element of basketball and perhaps bizarre to outsiders that this can happen.

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LV  
Earlier this year

idiosyncrasy*

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Zodiac  
Earlier this year

Vickerman knows he'll likely be fired if they lose on Tuesday night.

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Anonymous  
Earlier this year

As a United supporter, SEM deserved to win; United threw it away with iso/hero ball. But I can't help but think if Creek fouled out in fourteen minutes with five minutes to play, that Simon Mitchell would be making the exact same comments. Valid comments. Huge inconsistencies between the two games.

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KET  
Earlier this year

" It's a unique element of basketball and perhaps bizarre to outsiders that this can happen. "

It’s a good element.

If Landale gets fouled out that’s Landales fault for not adjusting.

Melbourne let themselves down, they stuffed it and deserved to lose.

Reply #853084 | Report this post


LV  
Earlier this year

If by good you mean necessary evil in the wider context of the sport, perhaps

But is not something to celebrate. If I only got to watch Cotton, Creek or Harvey for 13 minutes because some very soft 50/50 calls went against them, I wouldn't be impressed as a neutral supporter

Reply #853085 | Report this post


D2.0  
Earlier this year

Not commenting on this game, but personally I would like to see the personal foul limit raised. Or maybe changed to something like 3 fouls per half

Reply #853086 | Report this post


Kas  
Earlier this year

Good on you Dean - he made some good points.
Most Of Landale's fouls were ridiculous calls - yet Wetzell can get away with throwing elbows around.
GO UNITED - Jock will be one angry man on Tuesday

Reply #853090 | Report this post


TB  
Earlier this year

'Jock will be one angry man on Tuesday'

Will probably foul out in 10min then.

Reply #853092 | Report this post


LV  
Earlier this year

Here's some timestamps

649 1st
447 1st
559 2nd

Now I've had a chance to re watch some of this, wow, yes this was much worse than I first realised. (Today I watched much of the game on delay and 1.5x, now I've watched the replays at normal speed)

Vickerman 100% has a fair grievance

Landale's first 3 fouls

1. Jumps up to defend a Wetzell drive, Wetzell elbows him in the face before Landale makes contact with Wetzell on the arm

Correct call would've been offensive foul on Wetzell.

2. Loose ball rebound foul, not much in it.

Landale and Wetzell got tangled up when trying to box each other out. Landale won the rebound.

This is a perfect example of over officiating. Two big men competing fairly for a rebound, got a little tangled but a good aerial contest as Landale got the rebound.

The more times I watch the replay, the more I'm convinced Wetzell flopped and played for a foul. Not much obvious contact yet Wetzell jumps sideways flailing his arm.

Correct decision would've been play on.

3. My oh my. Go watch this one. Clear offensive foul on Wetzell. Just barrels right into Landale.

Correct call- offensive foul on Wetzell.

Incidentally, when searching through for Landale's fouls, I randomly stumbled across another one involving Wetzell. 507, 3rd. Got away with a hook on Peatling, then spun to the hoop where the refs found a foul on Peatling as he contested Wetzell's layup.

That's 3 offensive fouls he got away with, that resulted in fouls on United bigs.

Yanni Wetzell should be buying those refs a very expensive bottle of Scotch.

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Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Lv noting was mentioned in the perth presser after game 1 about ref's. Turnovers and playing shit came up though. As much as trev carries on in game he leaves it there, both goorj and vickerman have gone the ref route afterwards, it's a bad look for mine. Hoops posters are obviously entitled to go the ref's, always, sometimes even with both eyes closed

Reply #853101 | Report this post


LV  
Earlier this year

My eyes aren't closed mate, I defended the refs on here, until I had a chance to watch the replay

Neutral fans should be furious. Finals time, Sunday afternoon, sit down on your couch and get to watch Marquee Aussies.... and watch one of them get reffed off the court. Pretty disappointing.

Reply #853102 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

I'm a neutral fan, there was no favouritism, refs call it the way they see it. Calls go your way and the other way at times. Landales fouls were all appropriate calls.

Reply #853105 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

"Landales fouls were all appropriate calls"

Well you obviously don't know the rules then!

Reply #853107 | Report this post


Anon  
Earlier this year

Think LV needs to go ref a few games ... seeing as how he's such an expert on replays lol

Game was over officiated for sure and Wetzrll got away with very obvious elbows on a few occasions, but then they also
missed plenty the other way too
Only thing you want is consistent calls both ways,( few less both ways would have given the game a better flow
But Landale did foul, no question and he didn’t adjust , both coaches told the players the refs were calling everything "neither team really adjusted" but when it’s a do it die situation, the refs have to make sure it doesn’t get out of hand, I think that’s why so many fouls were called.
SEM came to play, United didn’t … reverse of the first game .
So the third should be a good one if they both have the same mindset …. Bring it on !!!!!

Reply #853114 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

^^ well said #853, bring on game 3!

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Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Perth lose - "they aren't very good, no Cotton, no Perf, hahaha salty Perf fans blame the refs"

Melbourne or Illawarra lose - coaches immediately blame refs and LV and others agree with them immediately and provide a laundry list of what they think are bad calls.

Reply #853120 | Report this post


LV  
Earlier this year

I wonder if Landale will have anything to say about this?

There's been comparisons of Landale and Bogut lately, you know if this was Bogut there'd be some comments and a fine coming his way!

Reply #853124 | Report this post


RobT  
Earlier this year

"I don't understand why they changed the two referees in the middle of the series. It was a totally different game to the other night, are we meant to adjust to the referees?"

An anon post but who's quotation? His own or Vickerman's? If it's Vickerman's statement then he has just relinquished any claims to any international coaching.

Yes, you do need to adjust to the officiating.

A true story:
I was a ref at a BQ under 16's junior reps game (boys). It was at the time when we (refs) were told to call hands fouls (in particular). The gun player from the visiting team had 4 1st-half fouls.

He approached me and asked (respectfully) why I had been calling him for those fouls. I explained about this new interp on hands-fouls, he thanked me, then rejoined his team.

He played the whole of the 2nd half without another foul. He was 14 or 15 years old. After the game I congratulated him on adjusting his game and he thanked me for my explanation. Not saying I was right or not (in the calls I made) but he wasn't going to change me, so he changed what he was doing.

Every-one won (except the home team!).

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Scout  
Earlier this year

Great post RobT


I expect United to win tomorrow and easily....but give South East Melbourne their due they played a great game in game 2.


Reply #853128 | Report this post


LV  
Earlier this year

Landale + 10 yesterday, one of only 3 United players with + (McDaniel + 11 and Peatling + 1)

What are Landale's +/- this season?

Reply #853129 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Jock played 13 mins (foul trouble clearly). McDaniel only played 9 mins. Both +/- are hardly indicative in a 40 min game

Reply #853136 | Report this post


TB  
Earlier this year

LV I didn't see your time stamp for Moore's BS moving screen call or Sykes charge on Ili...or did they not suit your narrative?
You went from gracious in defeat to a salty loser in 24hrs.

Reply #853139 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

#139 unfortunately this is not a new concept for Lethal Vertical (such a cool nick lol). Note the key wording in his post "Incidentally, when searching through.."

Anybody can go through a game in any sport and search for 50/50 or calls that they don't agree with. Unfortunately old mate salty only looks for his team. He isn't interested in consistency across both teams.

Reply #853145 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

The infamous LV timestamps. It's the ultimate in one-eyed poor sportsmanship.

Reply #853147 | Report this post


LV  
Earlier this year

[LV I didn't see your time stamp for Moore's BS moving screen call or Sykes charge on Ili...or did they not suit your narrative?
You went from gracious in defeat to a salty loser in 24hrs.]

Are you even reading my posts LOL

I've consistently talked up SEM on this forum for months.

They're a bloody good team and absolutely deserved to win.

I haven't even seen half the game at normal speed- watched most of the first qtr on my phone and half the game at 1.5x. I went looking for the Landale fouls (using play by play data) cos Vickerman rarely refers to individual plays

My only observations have been 1 refs called way too many soft fouls BOTH WAYS and 2. After reviewing Landale fouls, Vickerman is 100% correct Landale got several bad calls and Wetzell got a nice free ride on those plays

Reply #853156 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

The point is, you only ever apply that analysis to Melbourne. You never consider that bad calls work in your favour most times and you stick you head in the sand if someone brings it up.

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LV  
Earlier this year

I was illustrating that Vickerman was spot on with his complaints about Landale's fouls

That's called making a detailed, on topic contribution

Given United's 2020 season was ended by reffing in a 2 point loss, and they missed the opportunity to play a team in the GF that they'd beaten twice in a row comfortably, it's laughable to suggest "bad calls work in United's favour most times". It literally cost them a good chance at a championship last year

Reply #853159 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

You know there are other games played other than game 3 of last year's semis? Do you know what "most" means?

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LV  
Earlier this year

Some are more important than others.

If United had the advantage in "most" games this season it wouldn't have made up for a lost GF place. United is good enough to make the semi finals every year, regardless of regular season reffing, and it's those games that decide the entire season.

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Perthworld  
Earlier this year

A true story:
I was a ref at a BQ under 16's junior reps game (boys). It was at the time when we (refs) were told to call hands fouls (in particular). The gun player from the visiting team had 4 1st-half fouls.

He approached me and asked (respectfully) why I had been calling him for those fouls. I explained about this new interp on hands-fouls, he thanked me, then rejoined his team.

He played the whole of the 2nd half without another foul. He was 14 or 15 years old. After the game I congratulated him on adjusting his game and he thanked me for my explanation. Not saying I was right or not (in the calls I made) but he wasn't going to change me, so he changed what he was doing.

Love this story. Thanks RobT.

That 15 year old showed more poise and maturity than Landale did.

Reply #853164 | Report this post


TB  
Earlier this year

But like you LV, Vickerman is just looking at calls that affected his own side without opening his other eye to see the calls that favoured him.

If Mitchell came out in his presser and said TeRangi, Sykes and Moore had these crap calls...would you be time stamping those?

Most of us on here are ridiculously one eyed but are at least able to admit it.

Reply #853166 | Report this post


LV  
Earlier this year

[That 15 year old showed more poise and maturity than Landale did.]

I get that Landale has developed bit of a reputation for making comments that cross the line between confidence and arrogance, but, watching the fouls I was amazed at how much restraint Landale showed.

He was unhappy after the 5th but that was probably pent up frustration from the entire game.

In particular his 3rd foul halfway through the 2nd quarter, when Wetzel barged right through him, he just walked right off the court. Knowing the call was wrong, know he'd have to sit until mid/late 3rd quarter, just walked off. That was impressive restraint if anything

Reply #853168 | Report this post


LV  
Earlier this year

[ Knowing the call was wrong, know he'd have to sit until mid/late 3rd quarter, just walked off. ]

And knowing his first 3 fouls had all been incorrect

Reply #853169 | Report this post


LV  
Earlier this year

And actually, he didn't even glance at the refs after Wetzell elbowed him in the face om his first foul of the game.

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Tomas  
Earlier this year

"I get that Landale has developed bit of a reputation for making comments that cross the line between confidence and arrogance, but, watching the fouls I was amazed at how much restraint Landale showed.

He was unhappy after the 5th but that was probably pent up frustration from the entire game.

In particular his 3rd foul halfway through the 2nd quarter, when Wetzel barged right through him, he just walked right off the court. Knowing the call was wrong, know he'd have to sit until mid/late 3rd quarter, just walked off. That was impressive restraint if anything"

Or, the calls were right and there is nothing to gripe about when you play with no discipline.

Reply #853175 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Give it up LV, SEM got some horrible calls, the talk of Bogut and Landale being similar is getting close to the mark, the difference is Bogut was an nba number one pick and nba winner and great Australian player. Landale at present has the wheel barrow in front of him, has the tools, just get on with it.

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Jojo5  
Earlier this year

And Landale's 4th foul was rubbish - should have been a block on Creek - who flopped in the no-charge circle

Reply #853177 | Report this post


RobT  
Earlier this year

I get that players, coaches and fans want every call to go their way, me too. We wouldn't be any of those if we didn't! In fact, most of us have dabbled at being all 3 sometime in the past, the present and even in our dreams.

Truth is that there are 3 sides (actually, 4 sides, in this case) to every story!

Reply #853179 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

#177 For the hundredth time for the people who do not know the rules, the no charge semi circle only is valid if the offensive player is airborne attempting to pass or shoot. Landale was not airborne, therefore the no charge semi circle is irrelevant and normal contact rules apply. That does not make the charge call correct but the NCSC cannot be used as the reason the call was incorrect.

Reply #853182 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Creek's flop was a horrible call on Landale, but no different to Peatling's Academy Award winning flop to get Creek his second foul in Game 2!

If they're going to call it, and NBL refs do consistently, then you have to keep flopping.

Reply #853183 | Report this post


Tomas  
Earlier this year

And the Ili "block" on Sykes should have been a no call at a minimum.

Reply #853188 | Report this post


KET  
Earlier this year

Bigs do get the short end of the stick when it comes to fouls - near the basket is where the physicality and clashes are.

When guards foul out it's because they’re doing silly fouls and lazy defence, when bigs foul out it is often because they are contesting.

It’s not unusual for big guys to complain about uncalled physicality or being over officiated in the NBA. Screwed if you do screwed if you don’t, it’s a hard thing for basketball to actually get right.

It’s easy to say stay vertical yada yada but there’s just a lot more to it. We haven’t figured it out yet.

Reply #853192 | Report this post


Anon  
Earlier this year

Its been going on for 30 years, refs taking finals series the distance, nothing new. Used to happen every Tigers V Magic series.

They don't want any sweeps.

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