D2.0
Earlier this year

Well Done Melbourne United

Sure, we all like underdog stories and fairytale endings, but sometimes the best team gets it done.
And I honestly don't think you can dismiss MU as "stacked" as some say.

Yep, Landale has dominated this league, but MU were hardly the only team to bring in a Marquee. And whilst we know how good it was at WC and was supposedly on the brink of NBA, many pointed out that his recent spell in Europe had been ordinary.

MU lost their gun import PG, again, and this time didn't replace him. Opting instead to go with McCarron.

CG is 34, had become increasingly inconsistent, and last season was coming off the bench. His performance this season, and especially in the finals, is s huge part of their win.

McDaniel, despite his pedigree was a below average DP. Then last season he average I think maybe a point or 2 per game. But for Covid, he probably would have been looking for a new gig. ANd yet here he is starting in a GF.

Peatling? I didn't even know who he was before this season. And ok, they weren't the only team to unearth a great DP, but still, starting a DP in a GF series doesn't exactly scream "stacked" to me.

And JLA? Many were convinced he was a bust, yet he goes on to win 6th Man.

Baba I think was a great success, and hopefully portends many more, but even if you count him as an import MU still only had him & Hopson.

There were those who claimed that Vickerman only inherited teams, after his win with NZ and his first with MU. But you have to give him massive credit for what he built this season. Sure he had money, teams like Sydney, Perth, and Melbourne will always have more than Cairns, but he has still done exceptionally well.

I'm glad that Trev finally got acknowledged with Coty, but Vickerman was a worthy nominee this season.

And great to see the Melbourne v Perth rivalry rekindled.

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Master Chief  
Earlier this year

Agreed and good post. Great team effort and clearly shows they have a good coach in Vickerman.

Had a weapon in Landale but didn't get what most expected from Hopson.

Like you say, effectively starting two DPs,they were hardly stacked at all.

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Anonymous  
Earlier this year

CG is 34?? Largely agree with your post though - "stacked" or not they're a worthy champion and have had some great success stories of internal development.

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D2.0  
Earlier this year

sorry no, 32 isn't he? Maybe 33 this year?

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Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Was at the game last night and the crowd was great. Also very good at offering applause to Wagstaff and the tram after the game with no boos. Very classy and would hope it would happen everywhere.

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Master Chief  
Earlier this year

Also dealt with the loss of White. I think Goulding missed a few games? Good teams deal with injury and stay the course one way or another.

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Bolt  
Earlier this year

Meh

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Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Vickerman is a very good coach, did well to keep all egos in control with this side. Gleeson and Goorj still better but Vickerman has now three premierships.
Yes excellent season by United and congratulations to the all organisation starting with Vince at the head.

Great season of nbl basketball, let's hope that we all get vaccinated by October as to stop the shit fight Sydney is going through at present and season starts on time and before full houses.

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LV  
Earlier this year

Generous post

Team very stacked though. Hopson was arguably the best player in the comp last season. Baba isn't an "import" but rather a "restricted player" or whatever. Terminology. He's a foreigner who'd played professionally in both Japan and G League.

Landale is elite. On the offensive end, his efficiency makes him the equal of any other Centre Melbourne has seen- including luminaries such as Anstey and Bradtke (eg the 2 greatest 5 men in NBL history)

CG is 32 and is one of the best outside shooters in league history. The only season he wasn't starting consistently was 18-19. McCarron is the right type of point guard alongside him to get the most out of him.

JLA has obvious weaknesses- foul prone and turnover prone- but is a 7 footer and in terms of pure scoring one of the best bigs in the NBL, behind say Landale, DJ, Martin, Mooney and That's about it. (Although Mooney is a system player and JLA more a free lancer so that's an apples oranges comparison).

United was very very, very stacked and very deep.

Vickerman does well at managing personalities, but with X's and O's is not in the top tier of NBL coaches. At the moment, Gleeson and Goorjian well ahead of him. Wright, Beveridge and Lemanis probably on par with Vickerman in terms of what they achieved in their coaching careers *relative to the talent they had at their disposal*.

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LV  
Earlier this year

On Landale, from memory Anstey shot 47% FG and 30% 3P for his NBL career.

Landale this season 55% and 39%.

Anstey did hit more 3s, but Landale a more rounded offensive player and scorer overall.

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LV  
Earlier this year

[Wright, Beveridge and Lemanis probably on par with Vickerman in terms of what they achieved in their coaching careers *relative to the talent they had at their disposal*]

I'd add Fearne too. No title but 2 Grand finals and never at any point had the best roster in the comp.

I'm only talking coaches like Vickerman who have 5+ years to go off.

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LV  
Earlier this year

Its an interesting quirk that United was starting two less credentialled players in McDaniel and Peatling

Or "starting two DPs" hence the team isn't stacked

Some alternate questions

- How many of United's bench guys would be either starting, or have bigger roles on several other teams, or most other teams

- Would United starters have bigger roles on other teams?

Eg would Landale be playing 27/28 minutes on any other team, instead of 32-35 like most other stars?

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Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Peatling and McDaniel aren't starters, Melbourne get away with it in short bursts because of the strength around them, Hopson off the bench is nearly laughable. Sam Short should try get out as he’s an excellent player but never gets his time.

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Anonymous  
Earlier this year

"Anstey did hit more 3s, but Landale a more rounded offensive player and scorer overall."

I think Anstey's 2006 season returning from OS was better than Landale's 2021. He was a greater all-around contributor at both ends.

In the playoffs that year, Anstey averaged 25ppg, 9rpg and 3apg, and was pretty much unstoppable. In the GF he averaged 23, 9 and 4.

In this year's playoffs, Landale averaged 17ppg, 8rpg and 2apg. In the GF he averaged 15, 11 and 3, and he almost couldn't score when on Magnay in the final two games of the grand final.

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Perthworld  
Earlier this year

Anstey dominated back then when he wasn't trying to jack up threes. Landale is nowhere near that level.

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Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Anstey was a genuine 7' if not more, long reach as well. Landale 6’11" max.

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LV  
Earlier this year

Anstey a better defender. I was referring to offense. Anstey threw up a questionable number of threes over his career. Percentages dropped too low in later seasons.

2006 Anstey was awesome. A great season for both Anstey and the Tigers. I remember it well.

But two differences with Landale. The depth of talent wasn't as great across the NBL. Secondly the Tigers ran an 8 man rotation in 48 minute games, United runs 10 in 40. Landale plays 27.6 minutes a game, Anstey played 39.2 minutes a game in 2006. Of course Anstey accumulated more stats. (Although scores were lower per minute in that era).

Landale is a better scorer and offensive player. More efficient in a more talented NBL. Basketball has evolved, so it's apples and oranges in some ways.

But for his time, Anstey 06 was unstoppable. A 7 footer, a rim protecting force at one end and a 3 point shooting big at the other who could pass. More unusual than it is now.

So I agree, Anstey 06>Landale 21, for his time. But its very close. Anstey has the edge defensively, Landale offensively.

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Anonymous  
Earlier this year

You can only really compare 2006 Anstey with 2021 Landale at this stage if you want to do apples for apples. And the numbers I was referring to were in the playoffs. Anstey was a far greater dominant force in the playoffs that season.

In terms of depth of talent, it was not a high standard comp by NBL standards this year, the endless injuries and interruptions meant few teams really got close to their potential this year for any more than a few games in a row, and the league being weaker in the frontcourt than it has been for some time.

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LV  
Earlier this year

The stats you quoted, again, were with Anstey playing 10-15 more minutes per game than Landale did this year.

Landale played 6 playoff games. In one of them he played 14 minutes and fouled out. In the other 5 games he was very influential. Every single game. Landale was easily, easily the best player in United's semi final series. It was Landale then daylight. And then the best player in the GF. (Shaded CG who would've also been a deserving winner).

Anstey in the 06 GF played Sydney missing their Centre Rolan Roberts. Landale in 2021 played a fellow all NBL first teamer in Mooney, who actually got more 1st team votes than Landale, and Landale convincingly got the better of him. Plus he went against Magnay a supposed NBA prospect.

Mooney, Magnay, Humphries, Martin, Oliver, DJ, Iverson- I think you'll find this group of big men are easily better than the opponents Anstey faced in 2006.

Again, Anstey was world class player and a better defender than Landale is right now. But Landale is world class too, was dominant in the playoffs, and perhaps could've been regular season MVP too, if he wasn't playing on a 10 deep team with plenty of players needing the ball and only playing 27 or 28 minutes a game.

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LV  
Earlier this year

Landale shot 72% from the field over a 3 game semi final series. 55% for the season. Anstey in his prime would've been lucky to shoot 70% in a game, let alone over a 3 game series

But they are different players- Anstey wanted to be the man, and forced up more questionable shots than Landale does. Landale is a bit more content to wait for his shot and play within a system.

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LV  
Earlier this year

And to be fair, Anstey faced more physical defense than what's allowed these days

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Perth fan.  
Earlier this year

Onya Dazz.
This thread is now just LV crapping on about the past.

Reply #856524 | Report this post


LV  
Earlier this year

(Which of course, helped Anstey at the other end too. Anstey wasn't getting fouled out with soft calls like some paid against Landale in Game 2 semi. They let em play more in those days, Anstey used his height and length and defended the rim with the full physicality allowed. He was a master at staying vertical but the refs definitely helped by allowing more body contact than now)

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LV  
Earlier this year

[Onya Dazz.
This thread is now just LV crapping on about the past.]

Dazz suggested United wasn't that stacked, and talked down Landale's credentials.

Comparisons to past NBL players and champion teams are 110% relevant to the OP's comments

Reply #856527 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

"Anstey was a genuine 7' if not more, long reach as well. Landale 6'11" max."
So you really don't know anything.

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Anonymous  
Earlier this year

#570 no I don't follow media bs, I can see it with my eyes.

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Anonymous  
Earlier this year

"The stats you quoted, again, were with Anstey playing 10-15 more minutes per game than Landale did this year."

Anstey was a dominant offensive force in the GF, Landale could only score if Magnay wasn't guarding him. Big difference there.

Anstey in 2006 was a more dominant force in the NBL than Landale this year, as good on the offensive end and more dominant defensively.

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Anonymous  
Earlier this year

"And to be fair, Anstey faced more physical defense than what's allowed these days"

Did you watch the league this year? The refs pretty much ignored the rulebook, teams averaged 17 fouls a game, that's less than in the rugby years of 2011-2103.

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LV  
Earlier this year

Fouls may have been down but my recollection is D was more physical back in the day

You realise that would only strengthen Landale's case though yeah? Anstey shot 45.5% from the field in 2006, Landale shot 54.4% this season and scoring was about the same (adjusted for minutes- Anstey 22.5ppg in 39.2 mins, Landale 16.4ppg in 27.6 mins. Slightly higher scores overall per minute in 2021 so slight advantage to Anstey on the ppg but only marginal)

Landale was the 2nd leading scorer in this year's playoffs, and the only reasons he wasn't first were 1. He got screwed by the refs and restricted to 14 minutes in semi Game 2, and 2. Blanchfield chucked up a gazillion shots, outscoring Landale in the process but shooting a nightmarish 33% from the field.

I don't want to talk down Anstey- 2006 was my favourite Tigers season ever, I was heavily involved with the Tigers in a volunteer role at the time. I travelled interstate to watch the team at least once that season, probably more.

But we have to get the facts right.

I'd say Anstey 2006 was much more dominant than Landale in 2021- but that's because Anstey's team lacked the depth and the whole competition lacked depth. When the playoffs rolled around, Landale's 2021 impact would be difficult to overstate. So overall I'd give it to Anstey 2006 as a better player for his time, but it's very close.

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LV  
Earlier this year

[I don't want to talk down Anstey- 2006 was my favourite Tigers season ever, I was heavily involved with the Tigers in a volunteer role at the time. I travelled interstate to watch the team at least once that season, probably more.]

And, as some old people of my vintage may recall, I was talking up Anstey for MVP and Tigers for the title on Ozhoops forum on a probably daily basis, long before either eventuated!

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Perth fan.  
Earlier this year

Here's something I would like to see and LV should are probably the poster suited for this.

Your all time Melbourne Tigers/United team.
Starters
Bench
Honorable mentions...

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Perth fan.  
Earlier this year

* you are.

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LV  
Earlier this year

Honestly I'd have to spend weeks doing it. It'd be very difficult choosing final selections.

I'd probably end up doing two teams- my personal favorites (to include guys like D-Mac, Lucas Walker and Rashad Tucker who I loved watching for pure entertainment value) and then the actual team of guys who genuinely deserve it (guys like Giddey who had longevity and service to the club, but whose best work was before my time - I didn't start following NBL closely until 2001-02, Wazza's last season).

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LV  
Earlier this year

As a quick 5 minutes off the top of my head, without much thought,I'll throw these out there:

The deserving (1984-2021):

Bradtke/Anstey
Simmons/Timmons/Barlow
Giddey/Thomas
Copeland/Goulding
Gaze/Ware


LV's personal favourites (2001-2021):

Anstey/Bradtke
Timmons/Walker
Tucker/Hoare
Gaze/Goulding/Copeland
D-Mac/Ware

I was at Game 3 of the 1997 GF, so I'll claim that as my first Tigers title but became a member in 2001 and started attending regularly, hence the 2001-2021

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Perth fan.  
Earlier this year

Good shot at it though.
Longevity plays it's part too.
Imagine Landale dominating for another 8 years or so, alas that won't happen as he will go to NBA or Europe.

Ennis for Perth was one of the best one year players the league has seen but I can't put him in as an all time Wildcat.

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LV  
Earlier this year

Agreed, there are plenty of great one season players in the annuls of NBL history (Ennis, Wilbekin, Carlos Powell being a few)

Landale will probably join them as I'm pretty sure he only played due to COVID. Locked down in Melb then started training with both Melbourne teams, and it turned into a one season deal with United. If he doesn't get an NBA contract you'd assume he goes back to Euroleague next season.

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LV  
Earlier this year

Although hopefully he comes back one day like Bogut, Andersen, Anstey etc. Wouldn't it be awesome if Mills, Ingles, Baynes or Delly did likewise in the next couple of years.

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