Anonymous
Earlier this year

Can we start looking at results?

This current group of 19's both the boys and the girls could arguably be the first to completely come through from start to finish of the new fiba system, with u17 and u19 worlds, and all of the camps and programs gearing towards finding the best talent.

The results aren’t great. All of the added exposure, more coaches, programs available, and 'individual’ exposure and success, are BA going to be severely disappointed with the results we are currently producing under the current setup?

Is the coe the best way of doing it anymore? Are our national coach programs working? Does having every state team run the same offence work?
Do our junior rep comps do a good enough job?

Topic #48892 | Report this topic


Dictator Dave  
Earlier this year

I think the current crop of talent we have now in Australia is much greater then it was say 10-15 years ago. But how much of that is just a result of basketball becoming a more global sport? More variety in the offence state teams are running would go a long way, offence should always be dictated by your personnel and not 1 size fits all.

Reply #859024 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

The women's side deserves leniance. Players getting offered money to switch codes, lots of injuries and less allocated games, tours. Quality of opponent significantly less.



Reply #859025 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

The Aus junior program is an absolute joke.

The mental toughness and desire from these players was abysmal.

Reply #859026 | Report this post


Royba  
Earlier this year

Watching Spain last night defensively they were smart and organised,fouling only to gain advantage.
Offensively they never missed an opportunity and seemed to know where their teammates would be.
This meant they got many open threes even with the D closing out hard.
It all smacked of a team that Was used to playing a lot together.
I think players should be learning the half court game the Europeans play

Reply #859027 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

I think it starts at the top, appointments have been poor from BA for a number of years.

Unfortunately the one constant has been Jan Stirling. As incredible a Coach as she was, surely her record of coach appointments and under performing programs means she should be replaced.

Reply #859037 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Sweeping floors it is for Stirling.

Reply #859039 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

The problem with an appointment like Stirling is the old crew don't hold themselves accountable when it’s jobs for the mates.
Human nature, not going to have the unbiased and tough talks as much when it’s all within the network.

Reply #859040 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Anyone who followed the pathway Stirling took would know her appointment was certainly not a job for the mates.

She had a solid CV working within Sport & Rec and Port in leadership. Anyone who has spoken to her would agree she is a smart and astute worker.

Fact is it hasn't worked, and from the outside it would appear there is agendas at play (such as Butler's appointment) rather than appointing the best person for the coaching jobs.

BA across many sectors is trying to be a social warrior rather than a successful organisation and it's backfiring.

Reply #859041 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Re the girls side. What's going to happen down the track with the amount of girls we lose who simply aren’t even going to start the game anymore with the emergence of afl pathways?
The next Michelle Timms etc will never be picking up a ball. The next Erin Phillips doesn’t have to walk away from footy.
Is there any forward planning for this?

Reply #859042 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Not saying Stirling wasn't deserved, 100% has earned her role.
More the appointments that happen at every level below here and that filter down to the states etc

Reply #859043 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

To be fair, jackson is the only person in charge of the wnbl in the last 15 years that has actually improved the women's game. Viewing up, salary up, academies setup for each side, every game on avaiable to watch.

The flaw with the wnbl is the different teams to the nbl.


We have nbl1 teams aligned but not the top tier.

10 teams of the nbl should be the 10 teams of the wnbl

Fair enough, urgent owners don’t want the financial burden but just make the teams the same with different ownership groups.

Reply #859044 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Current owners'

Reply #859046 | Report this post


Nostraballmus  
Earlier this year

Oh Oz, always losing out to the Euros, and always surprised when it happens over and over again.

Yes Ive said it before and I'll say it again and you will all shout me down, that's ok, I get it that we don't want to see it as we always we think we know best

For the next stage of our developemnt we must look to Europe, not the US, or within.

Reply #859047 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Nbl/wnbl

Perth Wildcats - Perth wildcats(former Perth Lynx)
Adelaide 36ers - Adelaide 36ers(former Adelaide lightning)
Cairns taipans - cairns taipans(former townsville fire)
Sydney kings - Sydney kings(former Sydney flames)
Illawara Hawks - Illawara Hawks(former Canberra capitals)
Sem Phoenix - sem phoenix(former Melbourne boomers)
+
Melbourne United - Melbourne united
Tasmania jackjumpers - Tasmania jackjumpers
Nz breakers - nz breakers


Bendigo cut
Southside which is 5 mins away from knox and sem anyway, cut
Jayco man Gerry can buy sem Phoenix women...

Reply #859048 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Brisbane bullets - brisbane bullets


They needed a seq women team for quite sometime.

Reply #859049 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Basketballers on aflw

Phillips
Hatchard
Simmons
West
Downie
Brown
Molloy
Conti
Lavey
Perrera
Antonio
Remmos
Barber
Price
Brancatisano
Newton

Plus 20 odd more just under top tier
Another 20 probably contacted for next season.

Reply #859051 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Price probably the onlyyoungster who had opals potential. I think she made a big mistake long term.

The rest of the young would always bounce between Afl and nbl1.

Reply #859053 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

One big factor is the euro pro clubs take the best juniors into their systems early. Instead of say a wildcats having a proper farm system the states best are left to toil away in an uncompetitive wabl program.

Eg look at Spain and their system with the likes of Rubio and the like. We keep kids in their age groups too long, the. Think it will pan out when get to worlds, where as the euro teams have their best kids at their respective pro team academies etc, then when brought together their collective iq is way ahead of ours, as they are competing and being brought up early to be and play and train against seasoned professionals.

Reply #859054 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

The aflw with so many players coming through, it'll be like a revolving door over the few years.
Sad for those players who thinks it’s a long time gig.

Reply #859055 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

The aflw with so many players coming through, it'll be like a revolving door over the few years.
Sad for those players who thinks it's a long time gig.

Head in the sand comment, 4 extra teams = 120 spots.
Simmons and Price are almost the tallest on their list, maybe a revolving door for some of the shorter types who didn't have elite athletic qualities, watch this space, they are targeting the athletes within the national systems.
They come across at a young age, rucks like Al Downie are still going so it is a ten year plus career

Reply #859056 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Revolving door, take not over 3 years. I expect lists to change by up to 30+%

Reply #859057 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Not really talking about Simmons or price I'm sure they’ll have 5+ years, it’s the rosters in general I expect to change significantly, like insaid up to 30%

Reply #859058 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Simmons made the right choice imo, great jnr basketballer, would have struggled senior upper tier basketball.Price I think could have made a good wnbl career though, be interesting to what position she plays in Afl

Reply #859059 | Report this post


Hoopie  
Earlier this year

How much of Australia's junior problems is due to the emphasis on athleticism and running plays like robots, rather than building all-round skills and the ability to read the game and react accordingly? Or due to preparing them for the dream of the NBA rather than 'just’ international ball?

Earlier comments referred to Euro kids spending more time together and playing a lot more games, being promoted to the tough (adult) leagues early, and having a better ability to read the game. Sadly, that’s not likely to happen in Australia - we just don’t suit that type of setup. Similarly, we don’t suit the US pathway of strong grass-roots all the way through college to the NBA.

The only time I can remember the CoE producing a competitive junior team was the one with Lauren, Penny, etc, who were once-in-a-generation talents. And who could forget when our junior men won the u23 world championship in 1997 with Anstey, McKinnon, etc?

I don’t have any answers. But I do have to wonder what the CoE priorities are and what the various reviews focus on. How much influence do basketball people actually have these days, anyway, when so much of sport is run by professional administrators, accountants focussing on the $, agents pushing the agendas of one player against the others, political influence, etc?

We need to come up with our own model which suits Australia. Success shouldn’t just be measured by our presence in the NBA draft, or grass-roots numbers playing, or the number of teams in the NBL, but by a combination of many factors.

Reply #859060 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Simmons made the right choice imo, great jnr basketballer, would have struggled senior upper tier basketball.Price I think could have made a good wnbl career though, be interesting to what position she plays in Afl

All the media says ruck for both, WNBL $13k to 15k though and i doubt it will grow anytime soon. AFLW wages will be off the charts compared to that. 600k girl auskick rego. Games going to be played before mens to consolidate costs.

Expansion means $ will be thrown around and create an inflated economy that the next TV rights will pay for.

A lot more spots on an AFL team, kids can go and make the AFLW $ and then still only be early to mid 20s so plenty of time.

Don't discount the Shyla Chicago experience, she is viewed as the top kid and there may be a sense of not being able to reach the dream if she didn't last

Reply #859061 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

If the wnbl moves to mid year, that would kill a lot of the issues.

Reply #859062 | Report this post


Anon  
Earlier this year

The media statements concerning the two squads were odd specifically BA mentioning that all kids picked are current or ex COE. Are they attempting to stay relevant, they must realise that they are losing their pull.
Once you start using that as your mantra you get the selection issues where no other kid or parent thinks it is an even playing field or even worse the kid/s who isn't COE but is better actually doesn't get picked. Think we saw that this year to be honest, the girls will get pulverised on the boards much like the boys

Reply #859064 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

It's been a mates club for years, some players that have gone through the system never got there on ability. You get what you sow.

Reply #859069 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Lets not forget the 100s of male basketballers who have left the game to play AFL. Netball have also been hit hard, especially in the junior ranks.

It's disgraceful how the Media and Governments have treated AFL but its not something new for Basketball, just now we have to manage a smaller base with a small loss of numbers to AFL too.

The issue is 100% BA. They're failing miserably. I hope a new CEO can help, but history says it won't.

Reply #859071 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

I agree with #042, the impact of AFLW on our women is going to be devastating. Dropped the kids off to a free half day Auskick camp and they had a blast. Aussie Hoops too much emphasis on the hoop, smaller court size, means kids sitting around waiting for a turn. I have no interest in AFL at all, but that's what my kids want to do now.

As for what to do with our elite junior development, I think it's really hard. We are going to be better at Olympics and WC for having more W/NBA players. Identifying the players with truly outstanding physical tools, and teaching them the skills and smarts required to play at that level, is something we should be doing. But we need to blend that with the bulldog mentality of kids who don't have the physical tools but will find a way to get stuff done. Watching the boys against Spain last night, that grit was the biggest thing lacking. We had a bunch of guys manufacture points, but every time you felt like momentum could swing, we were unable to get a stop and Spain padded the buffer. By all means look to Europe, but I think the answer has to be a hybrid that actually channels our strengths, rather than trying to emulate something that's worked elsewhere.

Reply #859077 | Report this post


Anon  
Earlier this year

It is dissapointing and there obviously jobs for boys when appointments are made.

I not Peter Lonergan is sitting near the bench of the U/19 Men and youwonder of he is giving advice to Perry who is the Head Coach.

Watching the game McKinley and the other Asst(Cassidy maybe) I think do not not
Seem to be giving much advice to Perry during the game and there is little enthusiasm from the bench players when things happen compared to watching the opposition bench who are up and cheeering etc everytime something good happens with their team.



Even at State level the coach appointments for state teams in some states are jobs for the boys and once you reach a certain age you are considered too old to be a state coach and the younger expect to be head coaches after maybe 1 year of being an assistant and not doing their time.

An older coach can be used as a mentor to help the younger coaches but even that is not considered.

Reply #859078 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

It was a shit show from start to finish, not one of those coaches should be involved with ba.

Reply #859079 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Lonergan normally doesn't do any coaching in these tournaments, he’s there to watch. He knows his shit though he probably would not argue against crap decisions by BA, lets be honest it’s them that pay there wages.

Reply #859082 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

That's really helpful, #079. Insights like that I can't see why you're not in charge.

Reply #859086 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

#086 so you're the type of person that keeps them employed for several years without any positive results over a long period time...

Reply #859088 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Perry done a great job so far.... 9th in 2019, 9th-16th in 2021 and DNQ in 2017.

Reply #859090 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Tbf Perry wasn't the hc in 2016 but still apart of the selection through to next phase before he took over in 2017.

Reply #859092 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Australian team coaches can only work with the talent they have available. Results will vary depending on that talent as opposed to that of other countries. Coaches of representative teams such as these should be critiqued on their preparation and ability to get the best out of the team they have.

Realistically it could be possible that we were simply beaten by better teams. If that's the case BA needed to look at the Pathway all the way down to the ability of the sport to recruit the best athletes possible to the game, through local Rep competitions and Clubs, State Associations and so forth.

If the team under-performs (as IMO this Boys team did, as per the comments above regarding turnovers, on-court leadership and a lack of heart/positive energy) only then should we be looking at the Coach appointed.

There is a belief in some circles that a Coach shouldn't be too harshly criticized for their first performance on the World Stage as a Head Coach. Butler for example, has been given a second chance, many believe based on this train of thought. Others say the fact she's a female is also a factor. Appointing Assistant Coaches with a thought to the future is key for BA, but can be seen negatively by the Head Coach and can also create bad blood between the two in the preparation as personal aspirations get in the way of the best outcome for the team.

These are things not communicated to the basketball public in any way, about Senior or Junior Australian teams performances which I believe is unfair to the basketball community. It also feeds the negative scuttlebutt as rumour and gossip fills the void of factual information or a clear pathway for Coaches.

Perry appears to have the tools to be a good coach, maybe not of juniors, maybe not of this group specifically. Maybe he has further lessons to learn. Unfortunately the nature of these Tournaments mean these kids have one chance and they're done. It's unfair on them to simply appoint someone as a second chance, or untested internationally in any way.

Most likely Australian Basketball is suffering from all of the above. The pathway is compromised. The Coach appointments are not transparent and potentially equally compromised. Unfortunately it appears BA don't have the resources or ability to fix this. They may not even think the issue is something that needs to be addressed.

Reply #859093 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Let's be real if we were in the americas or European qualification, we would never make the Wc.
The Asia qualification is easy atm and the African qualifying get tougher every year.

Reply #859096 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

One thing about that 97 roster, most of the team were already playing NBL, some for multiple seasons.

Off my head:

Trahair
Anstey
Neilsen
McKinnon (X2)
Mann

and so on.

Maybe a good arguement to go down the European model of getting our best juniors aligned to pro teams early.

Reply #859098 | Report this post


Nostraballmus  
Earlier this year

Maybe a good arguement to go down the European model of getting our best juniors aligned to pro teams early.

Hello!

Instead of the senior men's team in both metro and regional areas in ABA and the like having useless go nowhere imports and 35+ year old has beens filling roster spots which should be used for the development of our promising 15-18 year olds.

It's not rocket science. Unless we can remove our 'little kings' mentality and start acting locally for national benefit we wont truly challenge.

That means you GM of your local assosciation

Reply #859107 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Maybe we should have no Coe and have u20 team in every nbl1 conference. I said this 2 years ago.
Nba global,can stay.

Reply #859108 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

U19 2021 fail /2019 fail / 2017 didn't qualify/ 2015 7th

Reply #859117 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Remember traditionally this team would have travel to Europe for Albert Schweitzer the year before the champs. Didn't happen last year. The other point is the COE are no longer competing in the 2nd tier Australian comp. Tell me competing in Waratah hasn’t slowed this team’s development.

DP is only this teams part time coach. So we need to go back to in having the same 19’s coach as the COE?

Reply #859119 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Seebohm the only coach that has had success in every tournament. If he's not taking over after Tokyo then we are doomed on the women’s side. Herbert is the u19 coach and york(lol) is the u17 coach.


The men’s side is likely going to see goorj stop coaching boomers after this year.

Atm
It’s goorj boomers
Perry u19
U17 Cooper brown?

Reply #859124 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Schueller didn't end up taken over due to cancelled u17 WC

Reply #859126 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Cooper brown????

Cmon now

Reply #859134 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

#088, I'm not arguing to give Perry another go, or that the system is working. But (if you're also #079) those sorts of comments are just standing on the outside throwing rocks. They don't fix anything. And no, the solutions to our shithouse u19 performances aren't going to come from Hoops. But most of the other comments here actually sound like people who want to see Australian teams be successful.

Totally agree coaches shouldn't be judged against a blanket standard, but compared to realistic capabilities of their group. Perry and this group have still underperformed. They would have been better with Giddey, absolutely, but there are some key players who've had years of opportunity at NBAGA/CoE and turned in pretty average performances. Wigness and Jones have been no better than Galloway. If a decent US high school kid can walk in and keep up with the stars of the CoE program, it's not worth much. Yes, the Euro pro clubs bringing in kids and transitioning them to higher levels of competition at younger ages is something we should look at. But this has to be encouraged by CoE. They spend so much time in godawful competition - these kids are playing junior local comp in Canberra, beating up on Waratah, and leaving their NBL sides to go to u20 Nationals. Why? We have to stop heaping praise on them for decent performances against rubbish competition.

Reply #859143 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Cooper brown was the coach in oceania.

Reply #859146 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

U20 within each nbl1 conference, 5 coaches . 10 assistants, 60 players.

Stay home with family and friends. No guarantees, stronger competition.

Get it done, BA no more excuses

Reply #859147 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

The European Academy model is widely considered to be best practice, but that would result in all the BA and State High Performance coaches having to find new jobs and the relative performance of different academies would be plain to see. I'm pretty sure they would push back pretty strongly against this, as would the National and State Bodies who would lose a lot of revenue.

Reply #859177 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Send the kids home from Canberra. Use the Centre of Excellence concept to be that. One that helps the localised programs deliver excellence through training, accreditation and support. Take a role for providing accountability and governance to the states.

Reply #859178 | Report this post


Nostraballmus  
Earlier this year

#177, lots of little kings !

Reply #859179 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

The CoE is not a CoE. CoEs do not do actual service dleivery.

Here a definition:

A Center of Excellence (CoE) is a body in an organization that works across business units (BUs) or product lines within a BU and has a leading-edge knowledge and competency in that area. It is comprised of highly-skilled individuals and experts, who disseminate knowledge in an organization and share best practices.


This is what the CoE is not. BA leadership are not renowned for their nouse and what they did here they grabbed a term that was a buzzword and just used that term. They SHOULD actually learn what a CoE is and be a CoE.

Reply #859183 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

I still can't work out what the team was running on offence .fundamentals went out the door sorry

Reply #859188 | Report this post


Anon  
Earlier this year

Elephant in the room, a double digit finish, lost to Turkey twice.
Wigness and Jones very disapointing given their hype. Daniels is probably the only one who lived up to their reputation

Reply #859985 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

Wigness and Jones definitely disappointing but I don't know if Daniels lived up to his rep. I would cut him some slack because he looked like our best player by a mile but there was a lot of egalitarian turn taking with the ball in hands of players doing nothing useful. But he didn't look transcendent, which most of the other players with NBA hype did for good stretches.

I think there are a lot of questions to ask about team identity. We were disjointed offensively, lots of standing and watching the ball handler. The plan seemed clearer defensively, to get up and be disruptive. But switching everything seemed to hurt us, especially with 3 bigs on the floor. I thought the bigs all made good efforts, for the most part, to stay in front, but they were never going to be quick enough for the better guards and wings at that level. And so we struggled to close out to shooters while also struggling to keep people out of the paint, and our aggression didn't generate enough turnovers to cover the cost of those limitations. That goes to what previous posters have said about the need for schemes to be personnel-based rather than just some philosophy from on high. Or, if we are bound to a pre-determined philosophy, pick lesser players who fit it over better players who can't make it work.

Reply #860015 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Earlier this year

10th, boooo

Reply #860017 | Report this post




You need to be a registered user to post from this location. Register here.



Close ads
Beam Orders - a quick, simple order and payments site for your business.
Dunk.com.au - Custom basketball uniforms
Punch - insightful time tracking

Advertise on Hoops to a very focused, local and sports-keen audience. Email for rates and options.

Recent Posts



.


An Australian basketball forum covering NBL, WNBL, ABL, Juniors plus NBA, WNBA, NZ, Europe, etc | Forum time is: 4:28 pm, Thu 21 Oct 2021 | Posts: 902,381 | Last 7 days: 842