D2.0
Earlier this month

Are Next-Stars actually helping Teams?

I'm not taking a shot at the program, either way.

But people have been asking for years why the Wildcats (The recent dominant team) has never had one? Clearly Trev and/or the management didn't like the idea.
Instead they've invested into guys like Travers and Shervill. Guys that instead of pissing off 3/4 of the way through the season, may actually stick around and have long careers with the team.

There's no question that the Cats' policy of building a core over time has paid off, whereas teams that benefited for a while from a Next-Star, have nothing to show for it.

Clearly there's a "benefit" in having a young gun, as not only a bonus player, but funded by the league, and teams like the Hawks made a mint of LaMelo's merchandise alone.
And there's no doubt it's been a huge win for the league. Imagine if Giddey also takes out NBA Rookie of the Year!

Giddey was clearly a class above every other "rookie" in the league. But he's gone, and guys like Travers are still here.
Even IF you can land a LaMelo or a Giddey every season, doesn't that just contribute to the instability that has been the demise of many star-studded teams?

Topic #49199 | Report this topic


KET  
Earlier this month

I don't think they would leave if the teams were in contention for finals though.

Giddey only left when it was clear they weren’t making it.

Player turnover is fairly high for most squads, especially imports wise, so I don’t really see that as an issue if they’re as good as someone like Giddey was.

The problem is if you commit to x minutes, realise they aren’t up to it especially in critical minutes.

Reply #870299 | Report this post


Lovebroker  
Earlier this month

teams like the Hawks made a mint of LaMelo's merchandise alone.


How do you know this?

The Hawks didn't even sell out their own venue consistently when he was there.

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Anonymous  
Earlier this month

Attendance and online merchandise are two totally different things. We live in Melbourne and my son brought one immediately

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AngusH  
Earlier this month

Can't speak for attendance, but Melo jerseys would account for roughly 98% of the Hawks jerseys I've seen around the Greater Sydney area for the last ... decade? Probably more.

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KET  
Earlier this month

" How do you know this?"

It's not exactly a far reaching comment to make, it’s conceivable, isn’t that sufficient?

Like the poster is going to have in-depth statistics on hand about merchandise sales, seriously.

Maybe look at crowds involving Melo at away games if you feel like having some sort of hard evidence?

Reply #870309 | Report this post


Curtley  
Earlier this month

It's only a matter of time til a NS is drafted in the lottery and is a massive bust. Much like so many drafted from college.

Big difference is poorer NBL teams will play Next Stars bigger minutes through necessity and rich teams will play them mostly as role players.

Another reason Perth wouldn't bother is it's a gamble to start with and they are successful off court without needing to take a gamble to get in the news.

Reply #870317 | Report this post


JT  
Earlier this month

It's helping the league

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Senator11  
Earlier this month

With the fanbase the Wildcats have they don't need to rely on a next star to helps with sales or put bums in seats so they invest in long term players rather than a 1 and done type of player. Unless they had an 'import' level guy on their radar I don't think they would bother and as someone said they are investing in locals like Travers and Shervill who could be the future of the team.

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D2.0  
Earlier this month

In regards to LaMelo's jerseys, it was published at the time. They sold some phenomenal number immediately they went on sale. Might have sold out, can't quite remember. And IIRC a lot were sold online to the USA
(all of which is only partially relevent, as I'm not sure how much of that Revenue the Hawks got, nor how much Lamelo cost them.)

Reply #870339 | Report this post


Cram  
Earlier this month

Hawks made a "mint" off lamelo jerseys and then went broke. Yeah sounds like it worked out so well for them

Reply #870344 | Report this post


sixtiesrockstar  
Earlier this month

The Sixers game against Hawks sold out super fast with the expectation of Lamelo playing. I know multiple people who don't normally go to games bought tickets and lamelo merchandise.

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JT  
Earlier this month

Exactly Senator. Using Perth as an example as to why Next Stars aren't needed is silly, if teams as stable and successful as the Wildcats they wouldn't need to employ this strategy to gain profile in their markets. Time will tell if this strategy is sustainable - there are certainly some issues with continual roster churn - but you could certainly argue that the NBL is attracting more and more high calibre talent beyond the Next Stars program. The league is gaining traction as a great place to play. A rising tide lifts all boats, and that.

Reply #870346 | Report this post


KET  
Earlier this month

" Hawks made a "mint" off lamelo jerseys and then went broke. Yeah sounds like it worked out so well for them"

What does Melo have to do with Hawks troubles which existed well before Melo?

Nobody says NS saves basketball as we know it.

That doesn't mean it wasn’t helpful.

Reply #870352 | Report this post


Cram  
Earlier this month

I've made my points many times in other threads so don't feel the need to go over it all again. I only commented in this thread to challenge the notion that having a next start was somehow some kind of money spinner. It clearly isn't.

Reply #870354 | Report this post


Senator11  
Earlier this month

'having a next start was somehow some kind of money spinner. It clearly isn't.'

Maybe for a competent club it would.

Reply #870360 | Report this post


EssenX  
Earlier this month

NZBreakers going for round 2 even though RJ Hampton was a bit disappointing. There must be something in it for a club that gets it right.

Reply #870364 | Report this post


LV  
Earlier this month

Next Stars would be seen by management as essentially a 4th import, one that could potentially

- Be a more risky signing, with increased chance of not playing out the season

- Bring in more fans and sponsors (depending on who it is)

- The NBL pays some of the salary (100k?)

Now, would I rather have Luke Travers on a 3 year deal than a one year NS? Of course I would.

Ultimately these decisions are made on a case by case basis. The successful clubs- Wildcats and United just haven't found the right fit perhaps (until Hukporti)

Success in the NBL is about having a strong Aussie core and then building around it. The best teams always try to lock in Aussie talent on long term deals and keep re-signing them. This is true for all NBL teams.

In that context, NS are just like having the agility to sign a 4th import.

Reply #870368 | Report this post


Senator11  
Earlier this month

The thing that doesn't work is that the goal of a NS is different to the goal of an NBL club. Using Wildcats again, their goal is ultimately to win another championship, why would they risk that when a NS goal is to improve their own brand and draft stocks? The worst thing a NS could do is go to the Wildcats for their own career.

Reply #870372 | Report this post


LV  
Earlier this month

^ That's not very persuasive.

The goal of many players isn't necessarily completely aligned with the goal of the team.

Landale's goal was year was to make it to the NBA. Most imports goal is to achieve a bigger payday in a better league than the season before.

Playing for a successful club like the Wildcats isn't necessarily mutually exclusive with these types of goals. Eg: Ingles played a moderate role at Maccabi, but was a Euroleague champion.

I think ultimately Landale would've rather achieved what he did, than sign with Cairns, play 35 minutes a game and average 25 and 11.

Reply #870374 | Report this post


LV  
Earlier this month

A Next Star like Melo or Giddey, if they'd played smallers role with United or Wildcats and won a title, I don't think that would've hurt their draft prospects at all. Modern NBA scouts value guys who can shine within a successful team environment.

Reply #870375 | Report this post


KET  
Earlier this month

" somehow some kind of money spinner. It clearly isn't"

You can't say it clearly isn’t - no evidence to support that.

Not making Hawks enough money to solve all their troubles doesn’t mean it’s not a money spinner.

That’s a foolish criteria to make on the basis of one player.

Have you considered:
> Merchandise sales - clearly sold more than the average player
> crowd increases for Hawks away games - some sold out and nobody usually cares about going to see their team play the Hawks
> Revenue from Facebook stream of Hawks games
> Jersey sponsor that signed on with the Hawks that year because of melo
> Value for sponsors from increase in attention

That’s clearly a money spinner - whether it’s the money spinner you want it to be is a different thing altogether.

Reply #870376 | Report this post


Cram  
Earlier this month

How are fans at an away game a help to the Hawks? Or the Facebook streaming money which the league gets?

Yes they did better put of merch sales no doubt. Enough to make up for the money spent on bringing him in? Money which could have been used on a good replacement import when Brooks went down to put a competitive team in the floor that the local fans wanted to see.

"There must be something in it for a club that gets it right."

Yes. If there's something that the history of the NBL proves, is that clubs are always making decisions that benefit their long term stability.

Reply #870377 | Report this post


Senator11  
Earlier this month

'Most imports goal is to achieve a bigger payday in a better league than the season before.'

Yeah I see that point as well, but Landale and other imports are usually more established players who are on the NBA radar, but just need that extra bump to get them there.

Reply #870378 | Report this post


RobT  
Earlier this month

On the other hand, at a Perth, or other title-contender, his CV improves with minutes in a championship team!

With that mindset, a Next Star would want to impress his NBL HC to get max minutes. If he gets them, he's obviously helping the team reach it's goals.

Here's an adage that you might like.

"The best way to motivate some-one to do what you want them to do, is to get them to do it for their own sake." (you play well here, you improve your prospects there).

IMO, yes, Next-Stars are (should be, anyway) actually helping teams.

Further, with the current influx of NSs and a DP(?) from Europe and Nigerian, could they be markets to actively try to exploit? As @Stevy has already stated, we also have considerable interest from Asia region and that should be our main, next target.

Think the Olympics have given Aust basketball a significant boost, world-wide.

Looking good for immediate future (next 5 to 10 years, with these plans developing even further). And there's the rest Africa and South & Central America, too!

Would need to extend the rules so that there would be more rules to break!


Reply #870380 | Report this post


KET  
Earlier this month

How are fans at an away game a help to the Hawks? Or the Facebook streaming money which the league gets?


The league paid Melo's salary though - what's wrong with it being a money spinner for the NBL as well?


Yes they did better put of merch sales no doubt. Enough to make up for the money spent on bringing him in?


It wouldn't be a far stretch to suggest, given the league paid his salary, the money made from their jersey sponsor/additional sponsors/merch sales would have made up for "expenses" otherwise accrued.

Are you forgetting Melo was actually a decent player in this league? They weren't carrying him for money - he actually played well.

He played better than Giddey did for Adelaide - and Giddey was a success. Giddey wasn't the reason Adelaide struggled, he genuinely made Adelaide better.

Money which could have been used on a good replacement import when Brooks went down to put a competitive team in the floor that the local fans wanted to see.


Again, for the thousandth time - NBL paid his salary. The lack of replacing Brooks in sufficient timing has nothing to do with Melo, stop equating the two. Melo didn't even count towards the cap.

The Hawks didn't want to put a replacement in because they didn't have much money regardless. It's pretty clear the NBL was helping them finance pre-melo, during melo and post-melo.

To be clear:

Team lacking competitiveness =/= Melo who added value as an actual player - he didn't cost them a player position, salary cap space or actual salary
Team financial issues =/= Melo arriving - they had issues before, during, after

Was he a money spinner? Yes; Did he benefit the league? Yes; Did he cost the Hawks competitiveness? No;

Was he ever going to save the Hawks using your bullshit criteria?

Of course not.


Reply #870383 | Report this post


D2.0  
Earlier this month

"Using Perth as an example as to why Next Stars aren't needed is silly"

I don't believe that using the most successful team in the league as an example is ever "silly"

My point has always been that more teams should try to emulate Perth, rather than trying to buy success in a single season.
(and no, I'm not suggesting that Perth aren't big-spenders. They are, but they also tend to adopt a longer-term approach.)

In fact even when you look at some of their success, there are pointed examples of the problem. Ennis helped them win a ring, and left. His replacement was sub-par.
Cotton helped them win another, and if he hadn't fallen in Love with a Perth Lady, we'd be right up shit creek.
Moody helped us to a great season, and now he's gone.
Point is that even for the Cats one&done players are a two-edged sword.

Reply #870394 | Report this post


JT  
Earlier this month

You realise I was making a pro-Perth argument, right? They are the benchmark of the league. Teams cannot magically develop the resources and continuity of the Wildcats dynasty. They are using the Next Star program and other tools to get there.

Perth doesn't 'need’ the NS program, relatively speaking

Reply #870402 | Report this post


Cram  
Earlier this month

For the "thousandth" time, I've yet to see anything in writing that the league was paying the full salaries unless you're one of those gullible people who thinks Melo and Hampton were only paid 100k. The league has been deliberately vague on this because the truth would make it harder to claim it as a financial success.

So either the league only pays the 100k and the team covers the rest as seems the most likely based on most reports or the league somehow pays the whole lot and therefore gave the breakers and Hawks huge amounts of cash and therefore an uneven playing field?

Which is it?

Reply #870423 | Report this post


Zodiac  
Earlier this month

Next Star contracts are signed with the league itself not a team so I doubt teams pay anything for NS players given the NBL owns the player's rights not said team.

LaMelo Ball was said to be on a lot more than $100K his season at the Hawks.

Reply #870425 | Report this post


Cram  
Earlier this month

I've seen that mentioned but never seen anything that confirms it. Happy to be proved wrong but again I think it's deliberately vague. I also find it hard to believe the league paid for all of Hamptons salary for the breakers

Reply #870426 | Report this post


Zodiac  
Earlier this month

Why not? Why would the Breakers agree to pay anything if the NBL gets the buyout money from the NBA team that drafts him and not them?

I doubt the Sixers paid anything for Giddey last season. They're already giving the nod/promise that they will either start the player or play them x amount of minutes (Sloan seemed to crack the shits over it) which will hinder that NBL teams chances of winning.

Reply #870428 | Report this post


Cram  
Earlier this month

So if he was gonna get paid the same no matter where he went why didnt Hampton choose a club which would give him more minutes?

Reply #870430 | Report this post


Zodiac  
Earlier this month

Well I don't think the player has much say in what team they're sent to, why would LaMelo want to play for Illawarra? I bet Giddey would've preferred to play for one of the Melbourne teams rather than move to Adelaide.

Re: Hampton & the Breakers, maybe the Breakers thought they were going to be worse than they were and would be able to give him a certain amount of minutes?

I just can't see NBL teams paying for these guys when they're doing the player, his agent and the NBL such a big favour essentially tanking a season for them. The payoff for NBL teams who know they're going to be crap anyway would be in exposure, increased sponsorship, merch sales etc.

Reply #870431 | Report this post


Cram  
Earlier this month

So what about teams getting drafted college grads? They're good enough to be MVP level players but teams are happy for the league to pay them and decide which team gets them?

Again the league's deliberate means all of this is speculative.

Reply #870433 | Report this post


Zodiac  
Earlier this month

Who says they're good enough to be MVP level players? Jessup? Mooney?

The talk was the Wildcats wanted to get Mooney as a Next Star but because it would mean he would then be offered to the bottom team from last season first, second to bottom next etc that by the time Perth would get the option he would likely already have gone to another team so they chose to sign him out right as an import.

Reply #870434 | Report this post


Zodiac  
Earlier this month

Something similar supposedly happened with the Bullets they were trying to get Tamuri Wigness signed as a Next Star but because it would mean worse teams would be offered the chance of picking him up first before the Bullets they didn't want to risk all the hardwork they had put into him prior to that so decided instead to sign him outright.

Reply #870436 | Report this post


EssenX  
Earlier this month

I suspect the Breakers have done the same with Besson. Just sign him outright rather than let other teams have a chance at him.

Reply #870437 | Report this post


Zodiac  
Earlier this month

They don't have much choice though teams can only have one NS per season and they already used that on Dieng.

Reply #870439 | Report this post


KET  
Earlier this month

" Again the league's deliberate means all of this is speculative."

Your response is to make up false facts to fit your own narrative.

Your entire argument is predicated on Hawks supposedly spending huge amount of money on what was a close-to-MVP player.

Despite the fact it's never been said to be the case. Frequently it has been referenced that the league pays the salary. How many times does it need to be said for you to listen?

You speak as if Hawks had to carry him despite very clearly holding more than his own.

You speak as if Melo wasn’t a money spinner at the same time when he sells out merchandise, gets Hawks a major sponsor for that year, sells out away crowds.

Talented guy that deserved his spot, gave lots of attention, paid for by the NBL.

He wasn’t the problem with the Hawks in the same way Giddey wasn’t the problem with the 36ers. Financially or talent wise.

Reply #870444 | Report this post


Cram  
Earlier this month

Haha whatever dude. As long as the league continues to play smoke and mirrors it's all conjecture and you can think what you want. Enjoy that.

Reply #870457 | Report this post


KET  
Earlier this month

"I don't believe the nbl because it doesn’t make sense to me logically so I’ll make up baseless arguments instead that aren’t grounded in logic and expect people to see things my way" - Cram

Reply #870458 | Report this post


Cram  
Earlier this month

Oh yes I fully expect to change everyone's mind when I enter a conversation in hoops. That's exactly what I expect. Well done.

Reply #870460 | Report this post


ME  
Earlier this month

Ok, to address the question directly, are next stars helping teams?

Off-court, absolutely. Dont even need to go into that. On court, what harm is it to have another talented kid? When you build a whole team around them that's where the problem is. If teams are smart they wont tend to do that.

Perth can play Perth's ball game. They don't need next stars. Their situation isn't everyone elses though.

Reply #870467 | Report this post


D2.0  
Earlier this month

I've never heard anything about NS being offered to the lowest teams. Sydney would seem to disprove that theory.

Besides Mooney didn't qualify

Reply #870470 | Report this post




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