We began training a few weeks ago and games last weekend.
Our association has mandated double vaccination across the league due to schools requiring it.
We have only had one family pull out and most other clubs have been the same.

"Anyone who visits a Department for Education DfE site for work purposes"

Someone who is coaching a junior basketball team isn't there for work purposes, so that clause doesn't impact coaches and other volunteers. That said, there could be other regulations that will end up requiring it, time will tell.

Not certain why it's madness, the vaccinated should not be put in a position of getting sick by non vacs.
Like all things it can take time to get used to it but far better than lock down.

Research already coming out that shows no difference in viral loads of vaxxed and non vaxxed. The vax is not some magic shield that see the virus bounce off you, it just helps your body deal with the virus after being exposed. I visited the booking site twice daily until I got my booking but believe strenuously in the ideals of democracy and freedom of choice. If the vax was capable of preventing someone from passing it along it would be a different story but it already appears that it does not do that so the protecting others argument goes by the wayside and just leaves the burden on the health system argument. By that argument we should be banning alcohol and tobacco way before worrying about the small percentage of people who would not get vaxxed if it was optional. As Coatsworth et al have pointed out vaccine mandates will just be counter productive. No benefit gained and just give fuel to the fire of those who think the government is putting GPS trackers in the vaccine or whatever other nonsense they "believe" in. Just leave them alone and if the virus takes a few out then that is just the law of natural selection at play. The same way those who abuse alcohol/tobacco/etc drop off this mortal coil earlier than they should. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

blah blah. Get the medically tested and proven vaccine to keep you alive and the community safe or stick to your freedom guns and be prepared for others to exclude you.

That's reality. Hospital cases and deaths around the world prove the benefit of the vaccine. If you would rather your freedom to choose to be unsafe go for it. But as a community we have to protect the majority. That isn't you. Enjoy the game on your TV at home, or from your hospital bed.

The vaccine doesn't keep other people safe because it is non-sterilizing, meaning you can be infected and transmit it even if vaccinated. There is no scientific case for segregating people on the basis of vaccination to protect others in the community.

However, the reality is governments are choosing to force people to get the COVID 19 vaccine, despite there being little reason for healthy people under 50 to do so, and they are trying to take away as much of their normal life to coerce them into getting it.

In terms of basketball in SA, it may force players and coaches to go to clubs that don't operate on school grounds.

I am protected (probably didn't bother to read that bit) but where is the evidence that it protects others? Until now it was just an assumption but as I said there is already research showing no difference in viral loads so how exactly does that mean I am less dangerous? Why are we not mandating the flu vaccine? 900 deaths from flu in 2019 so surely we should all be getting the flu vaccince or risk being "excluded". Absolutely no consistency whatsoever from our politicians throughout this situation and now ordinary people are doing the same. When it comes to Victoria the unvaxxed can go to "essential" outlets which happen to include bottle shops. Just how in the world do they count as essential and a clothing store isn't it? Ill-informed hysteria from one side just piles onto ill-informed hysteria from the other side and we end up with US style protests where idiots want politicians executed. I am not the slightest bit worried about being around unvaxxed people, just sick people in general. After teaching for 30 od years I came to expect that catching colds and flus were just part of the job but after going nearly two years without so much as a sniffle I just want people who are sick from anything to stay home and get well before they go anywhere. That includes me because I was as bad as anyone at "soldiering on" and thinking "well I am OK flus and colds don't bother me much" and not thinking that others (vaxxed or not) may not cope as well. Vaxxed people are still going to die from covid, vaxxed people are still going to die from the flu so we should be spending far more time and energy on figuring out ways to make sure people stay away from others when ill with any virus. Testing regimes/devices to let us know and then support mechanisms (sick leave, delivery of essential goods etc) are what we need not more hatred and division of our fellow humans.

Singapore has just passed laws that make you get vaccinated or you pay for your own medical expenses. The Singapore medical system is far better and all free by the way. You don't want to get vaccinated, it’s your risk, don’t take a critical emergency bed from some one that needs it.
Laws are made to keep communities safe, I exceed the speed limit I pay the fine, yes smoking does kill that’s why laws around smoking have changed dramatically of the years. There is so many community laws and expectations and getting vaccinated to protect all is just another one.
Get vaccinated.

The Department for Education has put out advice today that after hours groups hiring venues are not subject to the vaccination mandate.

AAron, not if you're vaxxed sweetie

A Aron
I think I'll take advice from scientists and doctors before an unknown on a hoops forum.

Yes, I was thinking about that old saying that you never argue with an idiot because they bring you down to their level and beat you with experience. Just cannot abide by extremists of any persuasion because inevitably they are taking the position that their life/lifestyle is far more important than any other person and that is exactly what incompetent politicians prey on. The vax is not 100% effective and is not 100% safe either so people have every right to have doubts and should be allowed to make their own choice. The quote about Singapore health system is just another example of inconsistency. Are they going to make smokers pay for their medical costs? They chose to smoke and therefor cause their medical problems so even worse than someone catching a disease they don't want. How far do we take it? Alcohol related disease? Sorry you chose to drink booze so you pay for health costs. Obesity? Sorry you chose to munch down on fast food. Bone disease? Well you didn't drink the required amount of milk to get enough calcium so out of luck buddy, cough up for your treatment. Need treatment for an STI? You can only get them by choosing to have sex so open that wallet. I swear some of these people would be quite fine with roving bands of vigilantes pinning down people and jabbing them and it is just depressing. So much for a civilized society, most animals behave far better.

I think you are right, you are an idiot.

By all means listen to doctors, but who do you think did the research on viral loads? Plumbers?

There is no issue with people choosing to not get vaccinated. Survival of the fittest and all that.

The issue is that there is a limited supply of hospital beds available and an increase in their usage will create a situation where more people will die unnecessarily.

Our health system, whether right or wrong, has been built with the acceptance of certain behaviours, smoking, drinking, eating etc built-in. Adding a disease such as Covid-19 will add to the services required at any given point of time, up to a point where doctors will be required to triage patients.

Look at the UK right now. Deaths are up significantly more across society by a far greater rate than just 'covid related deaths'. This is due to, for example, cancer patients not getting treatment because they are not able to go into area's of a hospital or be seen by doctors working on Covid patients, hence they are just dying. This will be the case in Australia in 6 months time as we have essentially run down the number of hospital beds, so the government can win elections by decreasing taxes.

Simply put vaccinations for Coronavirus are not 100% effective. But they have been shown in the UK to;

1/ decrease the rate of people catching the disease
2/ decrease the rate of someone catching the disease needing hospitalisation
3/ decrease the rate of someone hospitalised dying.
4/ therefore, decreases the number of people who catch the disease in Australia, and the number of all people who have some (any other) disease which requires hospitalisation from dying.

If everyone chose to be vaccinated (who actually can) then Australia won't have wasted 18 months of lockdowns and overseas ex-pats from being banned from being home and will be able to live with it going forwards.

Isn't that the whole point???

#860
Very well presented, thank you. As noted previously, Singapore are only treating vaccinated, freeing up there beds for normal service.

Going slightly back to my original question, will any coaches or volunteers that attend during school hours for clinics or coaching school teams need the double vaccination? And as with most things released in this roadmap, the ambiguity about coaches/JDOs/volunteers being around kids which could be a incubator seems to be double standards. Yes, there will be lesser contact with fewer children, but there's still a high possibility.
Knew it would rattle cages, but has really opened up the covid case again, should probably have flagged it NH.

Anon #860.... Well said

I think if you chose not to have a vaccine for COVID , hospitals shouldn't have to treat you. Take your freedom to the grave like so many anti-vaxxers have. You can either take a vaccine or die like someone in the 17th century who didn't have modern medicine.

We only have first generation vaccines built for the original COVID strain and not Delta - I would hope the next generation built against Delta and newer strains might be even better and stopping any symptoms for Vaccinated people. Will some have reactions to a Vaccine , yes , but is much smaller and rarer than serious COVID. Almost any drug you get can have side effects.

When COVID becomes rampant like the flu in Australia it will kill people regularly with the heavy bias on unvaccinated freedom lovers.

Go visit my favourite reddit thread , the HermanCainAward where we see daily posts of freedom loving anti-vaxxers dying the most horrible of deaths. New posts daily with the same brainwashed people who confuse medical safety with freedom.

I've lost track how many young mothers and fathers (not just old people) have left orphans because they chose not to vaccinate. Its a tragedy as they have been brainwashed by Facebook and dont listen to the overwhelming number of experts supporting vaccination.

https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/

^^^ yes spot on, thanks.

I stand on the vaccinated side firmly, but also believe in every person's right as to what they put in their body. Losing jobs is extreme, but their choice. Why not redeploy them to the emergency rooms to assist there in whatever position is needed, whether it is changing sheets to wheeling out the dead. Contract the virus, get isolated then back to it.
It's a very slippery slope saying not to provide treatment to unvaccinated people though. Smokers, alcoholics etc are probably the biggest burden on health system. Be like the idiot teenager the other day that was seriously injured car surfing. Does she get refused treatment for being a moron?
What I won't like about it is the vast majority of the anti vaccers gloating how they survived with a bit of the flu. The dead ones won't be able to say, whoops, I was wrong.

anything to do with vaccines on hoops just ends up being a big debate.

anything to do with vaccines on hoops just ends up being a big debate.

^^you can say that again :)

Most of Australia didnt have COVID last year. So flu vs covid is nonsensical comparison. The UK gets 1000 deaths from COVID a day

The same stats quoted above show the median age of flu victims was 88 years old. At that age falling down and slipping can be enough to end your life. The problem with comparing flu to COVID is COVID kills large numbers across other age brackets - many in perfect health and not frail and elderly.

I saw a great stat from a US hospital (Mary Washington Healthcare) - 4th oct
- Of 66 COVID inpatients , 58 were not vaccinated
- OF 12 patients in ICU , 11 were not vaccinated
- Of 8 people on ventilators , 8 were not vaccinated
- Of 36 people under 65 in hospital, 35 were not vaccinated
That maths is scary.

People literally die or are life long COVID sufferers for "freedom" over common sense.

Some additional researchable facts:

Trump started Project Warp Speed
• Trump had access to the top scientists
• Trump had access to the top Intelligence
• Trump approved the vaccine
• Trump got sick
• Trump had natural immunity
• Trump GOT VACCINATED despite natural immunity
• Trump's family got vaccinated
• The Executive Branch got vaccinated
• The Joint Chiefs got vaccinated
• 99% of Republican congress got vaccinated
• 99% of Republican senate got vaccinated
• Practically everyone in the Trump administration and working for the government under Trump got vaccinated

A yet trump supporters and similar right wing folks think COVID is a left wing conspiracy or government control conspiracy.

It actually science.

Problem is that we got are own trump leading the country. I'm very close to seventy and never seen anything like it.

Every reference to vaccinated & unvaccinated viral loads being equivalent fails to mention that duration of high viral load in unvaccinated is significantly longer. Vax hesitant & anti Vaxers seem to conveniently exclude that info.

People who bring up the longer viral load for unvaccinated vs vaccinated fail to also highlight the reason there's a longer period, it's because they are symptomatic for longer, they get more sick. Asymptomatic, vaccinated or not, the viral load is insignificant, and if anyone is symptomatic they're not at the venue regardless of Vax status.

Considering 90% of population over 16 is vaccinated I'd say the majority should be able to go about their work, shopping, restaurants etc knowing that all around them are vaccinated.

This statement is incorrect, false, wrong.

"there is already research showing no difference in viral loads"