curtley
Earlier this year

LK talking NBL up

This article quotes him as saying the NBL is worth at least $400 Mil, and that Canberra deserves a team. Also reiterates that the NBL is the worlds second best league. Gotta love his optimism.

http://aussiehoopla.com/larry-kestleman-says-he-wants-more-nbl-and-canberra-sydney-and-melbourne-make-sense/

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ME (he/kangaroo)  
Earlier this year

This kind of talk is for the investors, not for us. I have a real soft spot for this league but there's nothing about it worth 40 million, let alone 400 million. Shoot for the stars though... and maybe if he keeps saying "second best league in the world" he might just speak it into being. People though Elon Musk was crazy about PayPal at one point. I have a certain respect for people who make big claims but stick their balls on the chopping block for them. Larry has done well by the league so far. Still some teething issues but I think we're on a generally positive path once a few things are figured out. More investors and more money will directly help to that end.

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NBLTigers  
Earlier this year

Canberra has a good chance, but good luck convincing the Canberra public to fix up the old AIS Arena. It needs major upgrades. If the Cannons come back it would complete the national basketball league.

NBL better not make another franchise called the Canberra Bunnyhops bit like the JackJumpers. Isn't there already over 30 defunct NBL franchises?

Cannons would make most sense because they already won 3 titles more then most current nbl teams now. I know the Cannons licence got sold to Newcastle then sold to the Singapore Slingers who aren’t even in the nbl anymore.

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Weedy Slug  
Earlier this year

If you didn't already know, Larry was looking at buying the Ais arena in 18/19 and doing a refurbish just like he did with Derwent.

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Weedy Slug  
Earlier this year

Canberra(upgraded) and Wellington in a few years should be the go to imo.

Newcastle, Townsville, Gold Coast need refurbishment.

Geelong, Darwin, Western Sydney, Sunshine Coast need stadiums 5000+

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NBLTigers  
Earlier this year

I heard Newcastle has a brand new basketball stadium but unsure if it's more than 2,000+

Reply #889399 | Report this post


Dunkman  
Earlier this year

Big capital cities can have 5000 seat stadiums, smaller areas don't need those sizes, even SEM would be better playing out of a 5000 seater in there area instead of Melbourne park. Small boutique stadiums full of atmosphere is better. The tv and media deals is where the money is.
LK is quite within his tight to talk it up, he’s been great for the nbl, but I’d be surprised if it’s in the top five leagues in the world. Most European leagues are 18 team comps and it’s fierce competition to win it and to not get relegated, same in the lower divisions.

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Weedy Slug  
Earlier this year

8000 seat arena at sbc post 2024.
Most people aren't travelling from sem to John Cain, when the stadium is built, the fans will be there.

Reply #889401 | Report this post


Manu Fieldel  
Earlier this year

What would we say is the 'hub' of South East Melbourne?

Dandenong, Frankston, Cranbourne?

Reply #889403 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Earlier this year

It's sbc arena... wantirna

Reply #889404 | Report this post


Perthworld  
Earlier this year

Sometimes you need to put things into perspective.

I prefer LK talking it up over Rick Burton launching the NBL's slogan as "It's All Fun" and in desperation stealing a potential sponsor off of the Kings and giving them league-wide naming rights. Ewww.

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curtley  
Earlier this year

Greater newcastle has a much bigger population than Canberra and (apparently) most people living in canberra these days arent from there. Unless theres LK + govt money going into a rebranded Cannons team, I cant see it working.

Reply #889407 | Report this post


Life is Basketball  
Earlier this year

$11.4 million just promised to the AIS arena...gotta love elections!! That's that stadium fixed…time for the return of Cannons!

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NBLTigers  
Earlier this year

Be great if the Cannons could come back. The licence sell to the Hunter Pirates was a mess then the Singapore Slingers. Slingers maybe could of worked if they had more time, it wasn't the right time for Asia. Basketball seems way more popular now so who knows?

But if the nbl considered another Melbourne team then why not have the 3 most popular nbl Victorian teams back like the Tigers, Magic and Giants. League would be complete with all those’s teams back in the nbl.

At least Canberra and Sydney are first options. Bring back Cannons and Razorbacks first nbl. Stop with these’s silly made up names. Keep to history, because too many old nbl fans have been hurt.

Reply #889411 | Report this post


AngusH  
Earlier this year

Slingers still going strong it seems

Reply #889412 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Earlier this year

So team 11 is Canberra, 12 could be 1 of 5 locations

Reply #889414 | Report this post


Sebastian  
Earlier this year

There is a reason these "old" NBL teams failed. I'm not confident at all that they can just be reinserted and thrive. Currently the Australian talent across the league top to bottom is poor and people want to water that down even more by adding 2, 3 or 4 teams.

We are seeing at the moment some teams and owners not spending much in the import space, especially the 3rd import. Most aren’t even running 3 imports.

I’d personally like to see some improvement across the current 10 teams and the playing level go up before we dilute it even more. Games like last nights NZ v Sydney (which didn’t even have a thread) was an extremely poor quality game. We won’t less of that standard and not more.

Reply #889417 | Report this post


ME (he/kangaroo)  
Earlier this year

Totally with Sebastian there. There's a lot of guys in this league who shouldn't be being paid to play basketball. I know the argument "but mah Australian jobs!" will crop up but the NBL is first and foremost an entertainment product, with its secondary mission being to foster Australian talent for the Boomers. Having less Kyle Adnams in the league doesn't impede that. We need more imports. Any more teams and I'd open it up to five imports per team. Even a lot of the NBL1 imports are going to be better than the Rueben Te Rangis of the world. If the NBL is serious about its "second best league in the world" catch cry it needs to take the level of talent serious. But my wonder is are they even aware of where the talent is at right now, or are they so lost in their own mantras that they can't see that the league on court has taken a big step backwards this year?

Reply #889425 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Earlier this year

You have Aus/nz
local talent here in nbl/nbl1
Local talent through juniors/Coe
Local talent in college
Local talent overseas
3 imports
1 next star
1 Asia player


Talent pool is fine by the time team 11 is setup in a few years.
Earliest possible entry is 23/24 season

Reply #889426 | Report this post


Dunkman  
Earlier this year

Yes great idea, let's bring more g league bums, easy to knock Australian talent when a good share of the imports are just as bad or worse.
Let’s don’t even get onto the cost of the imports compared to Australian players, oh that’s right, the league is swimming in money, it’s worth 400 million.
I’d take Adnam ahead of that super shooter Hannah every day the week at half the cost and Terangi also ahead Withers, Moss and others.
Most clubs struggling to survive as it is which has made the parity of the league so uneven.

Reply #889427 | Report this post


Anonymightymouse  
Earlier this year

ME gives the classic example of why appearances are important to casual fans who enjoy the game as an entertainment product.

If you allow very physical play, to a casual fan they equate that to poor standard. They don't realise it's just the balance tipping in favour of the defence.

That's why the league has to make sure the game is officiated in favour of the offence. Then players are able to make great plays and casual fans think the standard is better, when really the style of game is different.

That's why it's really important the league has changed the officiating over the past month or so leading into the playoffs (average scoring has jumped by around 12ppg). If the current trend continues, it's should be highly-entertaining basketball.

Reply #889428 | Report this post


Cram  
Earlier this year

Complain about the lack of Australian talent and then advocate for fewer opportunities for them. Yeah that makes sense.

This is why the obsession with being "the second best league in the world" is harmful. It doesnt need to be. Its competing against nobody.

If an Australian league has more imports than locals, whats the point in even having an Australian league? Just watch the NBA or G League.

Reply #889429 | Report this post


ME (he/kangaroo)  
Earlier this year

"I'd take Adnam ahead of that super shooter Hannah every day the week at half the cost and Terangi also ahead Withers, Moss and others."

Well I've already made my point of making better import choices, and it should have been clear that Hannahs was useless and only suited to the G League. That doesn't invalidate my point.

"Complain about the lack of Australian talent and then advocate for fewer opportunities for them. Yeah that makes sense."

It's not about the lack of Australian players it's about their ability to be anything more than a scrub. There are some career scrubs in the NBL who have done nothing of note yet keep longterm roles. They can be next to garbage year after year and they don't get pushed out and dont have any pressure to improve. Why? Because there are too many roles for them if anything. And if we increase teams we certainly wont want to have a situation where the Te Rangis in the world are starter level players.

"If an Australian league has more imports than locals, whats the point in even having an Australian league? Just watch the NBA or G League."

To have intimate access to the best possible league here. To give the best up and coming Australian talent the best possible league to compete and develop in. It's not so we can have 30 minutes of Kyle Adnam and Le Afa per game.

Reply #889431 | Report this post


Dunkman  
Earlier this year

Yes, I hope you are funding all your top imports, yes there is always the Cotton, Adams, out there but they start at the 500g mark plus house, car etc.

yes there are a few Australian players that are not to standard, they normally have family or in the know connections but overall the balance between imports and Australian is right.

There are some scrubs as you call them in the nba as well, Deng Adel was supposed to be g league star, I can see you enjoyed watching him last season. Hannah was going to be the shooter ever seen in Australia, g league stats told us that, yep that worked.

Adnam is probably on 80/100g year bracket, your man Hannah is probably on around 250g plus car and house and you want five of them in each team.

Do the calculations, most clubs can't afford the Cotton and Adams of the world, Perth have been so great because they nurtured Australian talent with a good Australian coaching, bevo, Gleeson, that is now slipping and even Cotton is struggling to save them.

Reply #889434 | Report this post


Zodiac  
Earlier this year

Adnam is probably on 80/100g year bracket, your man Hannah is probably on around 250g plus car and house and you want five of them in each team.


No way would Hannahs be on anywhere near $250K he was playing for peanuts in the G-League last season where they get paid around $50K a season. I would be very surprised if Hannahs is on more than $150K.

Reply #889435 | Report this post


Dunkman  
Earlier this year

Not many imports come out here for less than 15000g US per month, he didn't leave the g league to play anywhere near the same sort money. They don’t play for peanuts or they head to Europe.

Reply #889439 | Report this post


Zodiac  
Earlier this year

Correct, it's effectively a six month contract.

Reply #889440 | Report this post


Cram  
Earlier this year

Guys play in the G League because its the best place to be to get a callup to the NBA and are willing to forgo better money OS for that opportunity. The moment you leave there money becomes a far bigger factor. Suggesting they're accepting lower salary because they were in the G league is just not true.

"To have intimate access to the best possible league here. To give the best up and coming Australian talent the best possible league to compete and develop in. It's not so we can have 30 minutes of Kyle Adnam and Le Afa per game."

I'd much rather watch Adnam for 10 years than a different G Leaguer each year.

There's already too many restricted player spots in the NBL. If young locals never got a shot they'll never get a chance to prove themselves and whenever there is expansion again, you'll be the one complaining there arent enough players good enough to fill a new team.

Reply #889441 | Report this post


Q Anon  
Earlier this year

Hannahs Withers and Humphries are on over excessive money based on their performance / injury history. Those 3 alone are being paid over what past coaches had to work with for the entire roster.

Hannahs should have been cut 3 games in when it was clear he was not what the team needed

People on this board under estimate what some imports are being paid.

Reply #889442 | Report this post


Zodiac  
Earlier this year

Suggesting they're accepting lower salary because they were in the G league is just not true.


Incorrect see the Taipans every year.

Guys play in the G-League for peanuts due to the proximity of NBA teams but due to the standard of that league they're 'unproven' as imports. No one goes from the G-League to big money in Europe. They start off playing in leagues like the NBL build their profile and hope to land higher paying contracts in future.

The Taipans who don't have big money to spend have plucked cheap imports out of the G-League like Machado, Oliver, Trimble etc given them a platform and then they get to cash in elsewhere.

Reply #889443 | Report this post


Dave Marshall  
Earlier this year

Here's an article on the Palace funding.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-04-12/canberra-ais-arena-to-reopen-next-year-liberals-election-funding/100984150

This isn't a full refurbishment like the DEC project, though, it's replacing the seats and fixing the fire safety problems. The total funding is $11.4m, the DEC cost somewhere between $60-70m. In the OP article, Kestleman makes it clear that he wants to see the government commit to a full refurb before he would commit to a license. I don't know that much about ACT politics, so not sure how likely the territory government is to follow the Tasmanian state government's lead. It would be good to see the Cannons back though (and I realise the irony of me saying that)...

Reply #889444 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Earlier this year

Both libs and labor have agreed to fund it, 11.4 mill is just the governments contribution, whos to say kestleman won't put in another 5-10mill.

The roof needs fixing, more facilities, new seating, air con, lights, audio, screen and a external facelift.

Reply #889445 | Report this post


ME (he/kangaroo)  
Earlier this year

It's obvious that talent is spread thin just by looking at the Jack Jumpers roster. By some masterstroke of coaching they've been extremely competitive and all the credit in the world to them but what do you think another team, and another, in the new couple of years looks like for the NBL? You're going to need to relax import restrictions even to have the standard we're at today. It's inevitable that if the NBL wants to get anywhere it needs more flexibility for the import quota and it needs more investment. Larry seems acutely aware of the investment side of things but I am not sure he's watching out on the talent side.

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koberulz  
Earlier this year

The problem new teams have is that most of the talent around the league is contracted, so the recruitment pool isn't great. Give it three years for everyone to hit free agency and then reassess.

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Anonymightymouse  
Earlier this year

"It's obvious that talent is spread thin just by looking at the Jack Jumpers roster."

Again, this is the importance of perception to a casual fan who doesn't follow the game in depth. While Scott Roth has said a number of times he went for certain types of players, and valued character and work ethic very highly, some fans will never understand that info.


"By some masterstroke of coaching they've been extremely competitive"

This would be because Roth recruited the players who would excel in his system through hard work and discipline, two of the big reasons the JJs have been successful.

Reply #889448 | Report this post


ME (he/kangaroo)  
Earlier this year

I am not a casual fan if that is what you're implying. I've been playing basketball for almost 25 years and have been watching the NBL since the mid 00s. The reason why my views sound more like a "casual fan's" is because I am talking about what can make the NBL a more pleasant viewing experience, and that is where the growth and money is. There's a lot to juggle in making the NBL a success - its commercial viability, talent, the quality and purity of the basketball as well as the visual appeal. I'd never want to see the NBL become the NBA in that everything is opened up and the offense always has the upper hand. But I feel like we need a happy medium. We had it a couple of years ago in 2018/19 season, and 2020, but since COVID we havent quite got back there. Of course the key word is COVID but the league needs to figure its way around it now.

Reply #889450 | Report this post


Anonymightymouse  
Earlier this year

Your views are great examples of a casual fan, and there's nothing wrong with that.

You're unaware of Roth's reasons for recruiting who he did, and mistook it for a lack of quality. That might be what some casual fans do, although in Tasmania the casual fans love the players they have for the way they go about it, they don't see it as a poor product.

The talent level in the NBL at the moment is very high, so it was disappointing to see the poor officiating style for much of this season that resulted in scrappy play.

Those who follow it closely would have noticed the change in officiating the past 4-5 weeks and the change in the spectacle as a result, which is most welcome.

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Dunkman  
Earlier this year

I thought the JJs would be lucky to win a game, maybe we got go back to the coaches a bit, McVeigh is twice the player he was, even Weeks who isn't good does ok, steindl even looks better. Easy to bag players, Pinder at cairns is another.

Reply #889459 | Report this post


Perthworld  
Earlier this year

It would be good to see the Cannons back though (and I realise the irony of me saying that)...

Haha, I love the irony. Perhaps you could go full circle?

Reply #889462 | Report this post


PeterJohn  
Earlier this year

I'm not a close follower of NBL anymore, but still have an active interest. This thread has been interesting for me to read. A range of views well put.

Some of the posts here made me wonder about a couple of things:

If the current quality of Australian/NZ talent is thin, why is that?
It seems to me that the best Australian players are almost all playing overseas (don;t know about NZ so much), in NBA and Europe. Are the next tier of Australian/NZ players also mostly playing overseas or are they mostly here in NBL?
If, as I think, the best Australians and maybe most (?) of the next best are playing overseas as well, have the marquee rules failed? They were introduced to attract top tier Australian/NZ players back to the NBL and stop them leaving. Has that failed or is it just not a good enough incentive to attract/keep the top tier players?

Is it important for NBL to be seen as one of the top 2/3 leagues in the world? NBL's natural competition is AFL/NRL and maybe A-League. AFL is the best such league in the world. I don't know where NRL would rate among rugby leagues but probably high up? A-League I guess would rate pretty lowly. Funnily enough, they also struggle with crowds. So does NBL need to be seen as one of the best leagues in the world to attract fans focused on AFL/NRL? After all, if you're equally attached to basketball and Aussie rules (teams), would you rather watch the best in the world playing one or the also-rans in the world playing in the other? Note that I don't know where NBL would rate against other leagues in the world, as I don't follow any other leagues.

The other question that interested me was already asked above. If the number of imports was increased, would people lose interest? When I thought about this, I changed the question somewhat. How many local (Australian/NZ) players do you need to have on each team for local fans to stay interested in watching the NBL games? Would 2 locals at the end of the bench be enough? Or do you need to have 3 locals in the regular rotation to make fans feel like they still have some connection to the team? Then I thought about how this can't be separated from the quality of talent issue either. Two teams full of imports of NBA standard would probably get good crowds, but would two teams of G-League standard imports? Questions posed by others above, perhaps.

I don't have answers but would be interested in the better informed views of others.

Reply #889471 | Report this post


koberulz  
Earlier this year

I don't think it matters where the NBL ranks in the world, unless it surpasses the NBA.

Reply #889473 | Report this post


Isaac  
Earlier this year

Some of that "second best league" ra-ra might just be aimed at player stocks and trying to attract imports to pick Australia over Europe, etc.

I don't think bulk middling imports is a recipe for success and third imports should be temporary for an expansion team. There's no time for growth or building a profile. They struggle and then they're gone which is pointless.

We need a consolidation of spend on quality drawcard players, often imports. Then a bit of continuity so hopefully at least one from each team hangs around with that team or in the league.

And then local players that fans can watch develop over time. I couldn't pick a single 36ers roleplayer out of a lineup.

Reply #889503 | Report this post


NBLTigers  
Earlier this year

I agree with ME, but I'm not a casual fan. I keep eye on the nbl everyday.

Wouldn’t mind more imports if the nbl keeps expanding. The better the talent across all teams will be better for the league. Look at EuroLeague rosters, they’re nearly full of imports. The nbl shouldn’t go that pathway, but only increase to 4 imports per team. Still keep the 1 Next Start and 1 Special Restricted Player because Kai Sotto, Zhou Qi and Baba attract overseas fans.

Still will never get over the Tigers to United change and S.E. Melbourne not going Magic. League would be awesome if we had Tigers vs Magic games back. Then to bring back the Giants would spice up the Victorian rivalry even more. North Melbourne had a great rivalry against the Perth Wildcats. I don’t understand why Larry was so against the Tigers, Magics and Giants franchise. They all dominated in the 90’s. Tigers (1993, 1997), Magic (1992, 1996), Giants (1990, 1994).

Posstive move if the Cannons could back. Foundation club from 1979.

Reply #889541 | Report this post


LoveBroker  
Earlier this year

No Bairstow again.

Is this the last of him we've seen this season?

If this rear end of season stretch he missed is from injury then I will be hesitant to bring him back on any decent coin next season.

Reply #889542 | Report this post


Dunkman  
Earlier this year

I believe Spain allow six imports of which two are American, the other four can be from any other European countries. Germany allows six from anywhere and as in Australia there bottom budget imports are very average. Also most comps have 18 teams of 12 and the bigger rosters, teams have up to twenty, most of the top eight finals teams play in mid week euro comps as well so players rotate through
Bayern who play euro league had a budget of 28 million euros last season and there mid range of spenders. In round figures 41 million Australian.

As I've said previously and I watch nbl and quiet a fair few leagues in Europe, you want to get six quality imports, the teams had better find a lot money or the Moss, Hannah etc of the world will be taking spots from Australian players for no benefit to teams or Australian players.

Reply #889544 | Report this post


Weedy Slug  
Earlier this year

Someone suggested last year

3 imports
1 Asian player (any Asian country)
1 Commonwealth player (any commonwealth country)
1 Next star
6-9 Aus/nz locals


Sounds good to me...
Always 1-2 quality Asian players around and several British, Canada, African players

Reply #889615 | Report this post


AussiePride  
Earlier this year

I don't agree that the Australian talent level is spread too thin. You see a number of Australians who were playing good minutes in the last couple of years now unable to get off the bench. This is entirely due to the standard rising because of the number and standard of imports, increased number of next stars and Australians who had been playing overseas returning.

In saying I believe it leaves room for a couple of expansion teams without thinning out the quality of players. We also do need to have locals playing, who without the opportunities, may be lost to other sports at an earlier age.

Reply #889681 | Report this post


Boba Fett  
Earlier this year

Melb United used to be worth $10mill and $5mill for the Bullets.
Like the salesman that LK is he is just inventing numbers now.

Reply #889689 | Report this post


Dunkman  
Earlier this year

Bul Kuol was last pick for Cairns, battled in nbl1. If another import was allowed he still in nbl1. The nbl get some hyped up 4th imports on at least twice the wage. Imo there is enough Australian talent that two imports plus next star and Asian player. Clubs have got get better recruiting and find the talent that's there. Aron Fearne in his Cairns days was good at it.

Reply #889707 | Report this post


Statman84  
Earlier this year

@NBLTigers

There have been 34 franchises in NBL history - 10 current, 24 defunct.

1. Adelaide 36ers/Adelaide City Eagles
2. Brisbane Bullets
3. Cairns Taipans
4. Illawarra/Wollongong Hawks
5. Melbourne United/Tigers (yes, they ARE the same franchise)
6. New Zealand Breakers
7. Perth/Westate Wildcats
8. South East Melbourne Phoenix
9. Sydney Kings
10. Tasmania JackJumpers

11. Canberra Cannons
12. Devonport Warriors
13. Eastside Melbourne/Nunawading Spectres
14. Forestville/West Torrens Eagles
15. Frankston Bears
16. Geelong (Super) Cats
17. Glenelg Tigers
18. Gold Coast Blaze
19. Gold Coast Rollers/Cougars
20. Hobart (Tassie) Devils
21. Hunter Pirates (licence transferred from Canberra Cannons and then to Singapore Slingers, not the same franchise)
22. Launceston Casino City
23. Newcastle Falcons
24. North Melbourne/Coburg Giants
25. Singapore Slingers (licence transferred from Hunter Pirates, not the same franchise)
26. South Dragons
27. South East Melbourne Magic
28. Southern Melbourne/Westside Melbourne/St. Kilda Saints
29. Sydney Spirit/West Sydney Razorbacks
30. Sydney Supersonics/City of Sydney Astronauts
31. Townsville Crocodiles/Suns
32. Victoria Giants/Titans
33. West Adelaide Bearcats
34. West Sydney Westars/Bankstown Bruins

I hope Canberra are the Cannons if they return. Bring back those 3 titles and rich 80's history with them.

Reply #889884 | Report this post


Cram  
Earlier this year

So you've decided the Slingers/Cannons/Pirates arent the same franchise but Tigers and United are?

Given United's own website doesn't appear to count Melbourne Tigers stats in club records (https://www.melbourneutd.com.au/news/david-barlow-to-eclipse-350-nbl-games), United players wear numbers retired by the Tigers and Tigers club legends stay away from the team, what justification is there?

Reply #889885 | Report this post


Zodiac  
Earlier this year

Cram, United/Tigers is the same franchise as you well know. Same owners/team/everything they just changed their nickname and uniforms that's it.

Reply #889888 | Report this post


Cram  
Earlier this year

Except, as I specified above, that wasnt it.

Reply #889892 | Report this post


Zodiac  
Earlier this year

Yeah it was I remember it specifically when the Tigers announced they were changing their name to United.

Melbourne United is an Australian professional basketball team based in Melbourne, Victoria. United compete in the National Basketball League (NBL) and play their home games at John Cain Arena.

The team made their debut in the NBL in 1984 as the Melbourne Tigers, as an extension of the Melbourne Basketball Association (MBA). The franchise entered into private ownership in 2002, ending the team's relation with the MBA. The Tigers were led by coach Lindsay Gaze and his son Andrew from 1984 until 2005, with the pair guiding the Tigers to two championships in the 1990s. The pair were supported by fellow club legends such as Dave Simmons, Lanard Copeland and Mark Bradtke. Four consecutive NBL Grand Finals followed between 2006 and 2009, with championships coming in 2006 and 2008 behind the likes of Chris Anstey and Darryl McDonald.

After 31 seasons of using the Melbourne Tigers name, the franchise was renamed Melbourne United in May 2014, a controversial change that was met with opposition by Tigers fans, former Tigers players and the wider NBL community.[1][2] Four years later, the franchise won their first championship since adopting the Melbourne United name. The franchise won their sixth championship in 2021. Their six championships is second only to the Perth Wildcats (10) for most titles in NBL history.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melbourne_United

Reply #889893 | Report this post


Cram  
Earlier this year

Wow, wikipedia. That settles it.

They've continually tried to be in both camps, claiming Tigers history when it is convenient and disavowing it when it isn't.

Again, the points I mentioned above clearly show it isnt the same club.

Reply #889894 | Report this post


Zodiac  
Earlier this year

Again, the points I mentioned above clearly show it isnt the same club.


Don't be ridiculous. If you don't want to support them that's fine but you're not entitled to your own facts and it is an indisputable fact it is the same club just like South Melbourne Bloods/Sydney Swans in the AFL.

Reply #889895 | Report this post


Cram  
Earlier this year

So you think the Swans fans would be happy playing games in Fitzroy jumpers?

Do the Swans only count club records from the time after they changed their name and location?

Would Swans fans be happy with the club disrespecting the official honours process for players who played for South Melbourne?

Again, they've done this deliberately, speaking out of both sides of their mouth depending on who they're talking to.

If you wanna pretend its black and white fine, but it simply isn't true.

Reply #889897 | Report this post


KET  
Earlier this year

Melbourne United is Melbourne Tigers with a re-brand including name change.

They can have feet in both camps and can leverage the old and the new.

What you don't like =/= can’t be so

Reply #889905 | Report this post


Cram  
Earlier this year

While their official website explicitly excludes club records from pre United days, its pretty clear which camp they have a bigger foot in.

"What you don't like =/= can't be so"

I like that they don't claim some of the Tigers history. I wouldn't want them to pretend Andrew Gaze played for that club. He didn't, so saying he's the clubs all time leading scorer would be ridiculous.

I just wish they would be consistent and not claim the titles.

It would actually have been a benefit long term if they'd made a clean break instead of this middle ground.

Reply #889906 | Report this post


KET  
Earlier this year

I don't get it, are you arguing that they aren’t the same club or that they didn’t get their re-brand right?

Reply #889907 | Report this post


Cram  
Earlier this year

Both can be true

Reply #889908 | Report this post


LV  
Earlier this year

We've had this discussion about 37 times on this forum, so I won't bother going there, except one thing

"Tigers club legends stay away from the team"

It was interesting seeing one L Copeland photographed in a United polo alongside one D Macdonald, United assistant coach recently

Interesting because Copes was very disappointed initially at the re-branding

Bradtke is also a regular at United games I believe

Reply #889912 | Report this post


Zodiac  
Earlier this year

And Anstey too briefly coached United and then after joining that failed 3x3 rival league I saw him at a United game recently too.

Reply #889914 | Report this post


Reader  
Earlier this year

I think Cram has a point, now that United has enough of its own history it can probably make a clean break as far as records and titles etc.

Reply #889923 | Report this post


Perthworld  
Earlier this year

The franchise licence transfer from Canberra to Newcastle to Singapore has to be one of the most funkiest moves in pro sport of all time, even trumping the McAmericans, who came up with the concept, at their own game.

Reply #889929 | Report this post


NBLTigers  
Earlier this year

Tigers United history is very strange to understand. Since D-Mac works with United a lot of the past Tiger players like Anstey, Mark and Copeland support the team. Wouldn't say massively but go to a few games. Ray Gordon was seating in the celebrity seats last game.

I don’t mind if United could just claim all of the past Melbourne teams history and put all championship banners from St. Kilda, Giants, Magic and Dragons. Just to honour all those’s great Victorian clubs.

Either way if they claim Tigers or not it really doesn’t matter. United can’t hide they were the Melbourne Tigers in the past. They did do a post last year but nothing about the 4 championships if they own them or not. I remember seeing video of Dean and Vince with all the Tiger championships so guessing United are still Tigers even if you may like it or not.

Reply #889935 | Report this post


LV  
Earlier this year

It's a matter of fact that they changed the name from Tigers to United and carried on

Same coach, some of the same players.

They simply changed the name, the uniform and carried on. It was an extreme rebrand, but a rebrand it was, not a brand new club

The stuff about "uniting all past Melbourne teams" was marketing fluff but what actually happened is what actually happened

Now, whether we as fans should honour past Melbourne Tigers titles as being a part of Melbourne United is one we can debate all day long

But honestly, I don't care for those contests anymore. NBL isn't a sport with rich history where that matters.

United has carved out it's own impressive history- 7 seasons, 5 playoff appearances, 3 Grand Finals, 2 titles. A minor premiership in the 8th season after being tipped to miss playoffs

We all know Perth is the NBL's benchmark franchise in terms of success and culture, but Melbourne United has increasingly challenged that since the Vickerman era and I'm enjoying how the battle is playing out.

Whether we include the Tigers titles, I'm not fussed. Gaze and co are legends with their own piece of history regardless

That's where I'm sitting after 8 years

Reply #889941 | Report this post


Anonymightymouse  
Earlier this year

Agree LV, it was in reality a continuation of the same club with a new nickname and uniform, but in perception it was something new.

Reply #889942 | Report this post


Dave Marshall  
Earlier this year

Not that it has any bearing on the Tigers/United dichotomy, but we definitely didn't consider the Cannons/Pirates/Slingers as a single franchise, even though the Slingers had quite a bit of overlap with the Pirates in terms of the roster and minority ownership. The only things the Pirates inherited from the Cannons were the license itself and the Polly Parrot suit.

Perthworld, I'm not sure if "funky" is exactly the word I'd use. More "completely and utterly insane"? I sometimes think I need to write a book about the whole thing.

Reply #889967 | Report this post


Perthworld  
Earlier this year

I'd read it, especially the parts about Jeff Blandon.

I guess the question is whether there is a distinction between a licence and franchise or are they one and the same? It was most certainly a crazy journey for that particular NBL licence.

Reply #889968 | Report this post


Dave Marshall  
Earlier this year

That's a really good question. I think the answer is "it depends on the league" - for instance, the current Hornets are considered by the NBA to be the same as the original Hornets, minus the two year period before Charlotte were awarded the new franchise; the Pelicans are considered to be an expansion franchise with a history starting from when they moved to New Orleans. There was a similar issue in the NFL when Cleveland relocated to Baltimore, and then Cleveland were awarded a "replacement" franchise.

Then there's the Rangers FC controversy in Scotland, where the corporate ownership changed - the SPL still say it's the same club, and I think UEFA back them on that, but some Celtic supporters are adamant that it's a totally new club (and that therefore they won the Old Firm rivalry once and for all).

Reply #889976 | Report this post


Anonymightymouse  
Earlier this year

Transferring a licence doesn't make it the same club. A club is a lot more than a licence.

Reply #890025 | Report this post


Perthworld  
Earlier this year

That's why I said 'franchise' (which is the right to play in the league due to the licence you hold) rather than 'club'.

Club is more about the staff, players, fans and culture around the organisation.

Reply #890039 | Report this post




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