All referee's to be supplied with Thicker Skin!

A gift wrap service to keep them distracted. Great idea!

This is all good in principle, but it won't do anything to help build the refereeing ranks.

Good referees are good communicators - giving someone a technical foul immediately after the infringement (with no warning, talking, etc) will just get the person offside even more.

The poor referees who cannot communicate will resort to this, and the good referees who can communicate will not even need to look at these bylaws. Plus they won't be doing the game anyway, they'll be doing Div 1 and 2.

I guess it may help teach the players/coaches/spectators a lesson, but it won't help referee numbers or quality.

Surely experience would tell you, sometimes there's no communicating with coaches/players when they're upset and frantic and irrational and the only response is a tech.

However, I'm also an ex-ref and I rarely gave out tech fouls (from memory less than 10 in 12 years) and was accused for talking too much and not giving out enough techs. I do understand that sometimes the only language competitors understand is a tech which potentially penalises a team on the score board, but I don't think bad refs should hide behind tech fouls as a way of not communicating why they made a call.

Coaches/players also need to understand umpires rarely respond well to yelling or abuse and should generally answer a reasonable question.

It's give and take, coaches/players need to lighten up a lot, especially those in Div 3-5 and refs need to feel they are being personally attacked so they can ref the game.

It won't change anything. Let the players ref their own games, coaches and spectators too. From the amount that they scream, they must know the rules...

the thing is, that even if a player or coach goes to far they say report them. Well these day the tribunal wont even back up the ref's. Thats even if BSA remember to process the paper work.

U ask most ref's around and they will tell u that reporting a player/coach is a waste of time.
(soz just telling the truth).

Isn't it amazing that it is alway's ex refs who are the biggest wingers. Maybe if you got off your backside and helped we would have less problems.
In SA we probably have more ex refs than active refs. Stop being part of the problem and help with the solution.

Maybe if u asked us ex ref's why we were no longer umpiring u would find out wat is wrong with the current system.
(not taking away from the job that Neil Poulton is doing.)

Ref's that dont do church ball now have a chance of making it in this state.

Situation: ABL game a year or two ago. Mens games - at the end of the game coach punches/pushes player from the other team. Goes to tribunal, but coach bring LAWYER. tribunal gets scared and lets off coach.

NOW SORRY FOR BEING SUCH WHINGERS BUT NOW U SEE WHY ITS A JOKE WHEN BSA BRINGS OUT BY-LAWS.

ex ref 2,

Give me a call and let me know why you are no longer umpiring.

Paul Arnott
Competitions Manager
Basketball SA
8444-6407

current ref - i did that. after not umpiring for quite a while, offered to help out. First night back, got three games, back to back, solo.

and they wonder why there is such an umpiring shortage!

I'm an ex-ref too. I enjoyed the social side, I meet many great people of SA basketball, I knew players and coaches, watched players grow and improve, I did it to make some money as a student.

As soon as I started working full-time, I'd rather devote my spare time to playing and coaching, not refereeing. I must admit, I didn't get abused as much as I've seen others get abused, but it does wear on a person. Who else goes to earn money and gets abused non-stop? Maybe stand up comics? Parking inspectors? It has a limit and players and coaches need to realise that. Each harsh word pushes a ref closer to quitting.

LOL! I refereed that men's game you talk about ex ref 2!!! Comedy Gold the last 30 seconds of that tape, all it needed was the benny hill music over the top of it

"Graeme LeBroy" how did u feel when it got thrown out of the tribunal???

Ex ref 2,
i also am a ex ref (that comes out and helps everynow and then).
i also have had problems with the tribunal in the past not backing the umpires up, but if thats the only reason why u are no longer umpring then maybe u should have not taken it up from the start.

a ref once told me[that sometimes they do make mistakes in a game they are only human, but so do the players and how many people yell out abuse to them, for evey bad call a ref makes how many mistakes dose a team make!]

Quite True, "enjoythegame", except don't forget players & referees aren't on equal footing.
In the case of Basketball the teams (if they have 7 players each) have paid out a total of $133- ($152 if there is 8 per side)for an hour & bit's entertainment & expect something worth that.
Then you might say the refs only get $12-$15 each, but that isn't the players fault. There are always two sides to every argument.
Not that I'm saying referees should get abused, but do you heckle at a bad movie or at a stand-up comic if you have paid & they are doing a lousy job!

c ur point, but ref's have to make how many choice during a game call the foul, dont call the foul, advantage/disadvantage (please lets not argue about adv/disadv again.

They are allowed to make a mistake during the game as well,

Just like ur parents that pay ur fee's each year or pay to see u play. U mite stuff up on the court. Do they then abuse u, for money going down the drain. I think not.

If u ask most ref's why they umpire, its not because of the money, (Trust me its not good money)
They enjoy being part of the game.

Yes there are a few out there that do ref for the money and u can tell cause they dont improve from week to week.

The ref thing has been done to death on this site so many time that us as ref's are never going to please everyone, but hey thats part of the job. If we cared what people thought of us all the time then we wouldnt be putting ourselves in the firing line.

Agree completely "shut up" re argument made by "Enjoy the game".

Irrelevant that umpires don't yell abuse at players for making mistakes.

The umpires remain uneffected if a player makes a turnover or 10 for that matter. A player is affected if he gets smashed in the face on a drive with no call.

I'm not saying that umpires should be sworn at or physically confronted but getting asked questions by coaches and players is an absolute given irrespective of the division or league.

The best umpires in the world in the NBA are scrutinised by the players, coaches, league, owners, media more than any other bball umpires in the world and they are amongst the best.

Cuban even sends the NBA spreadsheets summarising the percentages of correct calls based on replay.

I understand that the NBA refs get paid well so they should be able to put up with it but I'm sure all of them started in similar circumstances of low paid refs at local games.

Phizzer, sounds like you shouldn't be an ex-ref but a developer of younger ones.

From a playing and coaching perspective, when it comes to ranking umpires, it is always the best communicators (as opposed to necessarily the best technically) that come out on top. Most players I know share a similar opinion.

It is a massive generalisation but most players/coaches will shut up pretty quickly when given a quick explanation, even something as simple as "I missed it".

Dishing out techs that 9 times out of 10 compound a mistake is not necessarily the answer.

It is when players are ignored or techs are dished out inconsistent with swearing and other abuse that is allowed that more serious problems develop.

I'd be interested to know Phizzer, and ex-refs how much time is spent with junior umpires dealing with this issue of communication and explaining that getting questioned comes with the territory as opposed to what is and isn't a travel.

I agree that players and coaches have a duty not to go overboard but at the end of the day paying customers who are provided with clearly incompetent/unqualified refs are always going to get frustrated. That's not the fault of the unqualified umpires but the people who put them in that situation (who I appreciate have no other option due to shortage).

That is just a reality in the same way that a customer would complain if provided with incompetent service from a surgeon or a worker at McDonalds.

Stephon

Unfortunately, I was around at that stage when the powers that be made all the up-and-coming referees choose between playing/coaching and referring. As in, you can't do both. Lost many young refs at that point. When Rodney Ridley took over, that changed, but it was difficult playing and umpiring on a Friday night, especially if you were rostered for first and last game on other side of town!

I think for same reasons players stop playing at age 17-19, umpires stop umpiring. Forget social life on Friday night. You play a game, lasts 1-1.5 hours, umpires are at stadiums 5 hours or more on a Friday, then sometimes back it up Saturday morning for another 5 hours. Not to mention mid-week seniors games, another 3-4 hours of running and reffing. It wears thin and the abuse many umpires get become the final straw.

Level 0 and 1 umpiring courses deal mostly with rules and mechanics. Level 2 gets seriously into communication with players/coaches. However, like areas such as marketing and public relations, you either have it or you don't. You're either a good communicator, or you're not and we have both types umpiring in SA.

What makes it tough for players/coaches is dealing with those not good at communicating and I don't think it can be taught.

"Stephon, players who make lots of mistakes make a game scrappy and of a low standard. Don't you think that effects the enjoyment level of the referee on the game?"

Players making mistakes might effect the enjoyment level of the refs but not in a direct way like a ref's mistakes effects a player.

I'm not talking about the odd mistake either. Of course that is going to happen.

However, I guarantee you that 99% of the posters on this board have been involved in a game whether it be the NBL players all the way to the social players where the umpires definition of consistency is that if they don't blow the whistle the whole game then they are being consistent.

It is in these games where players are getting their legs taken out, question why there was no foul when there is a fresh hand print on their face, to then have a tech issued in the name of zero tolerance that games start to seriously deteriorate in my opinion.

Thanks for the response Phizzer, much appreciated.

It would be interesting to see what change would result if a greater emphasis was placed on communication/accepting getting questioned as part of the game (rather than viewing it as a personal attack), especially with junior umpires.

IE first training session, showing video of the best umpires in the world getting yelled at by Phil Jackson or scowled at by Kobe and say it doesn't matter if you are the best umpire in the world, you will always get questioned.

The other thing that has not changed and will never change is players and umpires working over the refs. Been around from the days Naismith pinned up a couple of peach baskets. Will happen moreso with more inexperienced refs who will give in and make a few calls also.

Building the umpires confidence to understand that getting questioned will happen and is not to be interpreted as a personal attack might have a positive effect of retention of umpires than wide spread instruction to dish out techs.

It is when the techs are issued that I find situations escalate, players become more angry and abuse increases as opposed to decreases.

Anon you state "The biggest misconception in basketball is that you pay for your refs." It's not really a misconception as without the players payment the refs wouldn't get paid.

However, you are correct in that frustration most of the time (where only 1 umpire is available or the umpires are complete rookies) should be directed at the Association. From a player's perspective the team pays its money on the understanding that the Association will provide a safe court and qualified umpires. Nothing more and nothing less.

Again frustration when this does not occur has to be expected as it would if you don't get what you paid for in other areas of life.

Anon stated, "what is the use of communication skills if the coach or player in question will not listen". Again, of course not all players/coaches will shut up but I guarantee you 9 out of 10 players will have more time for the umpire that communicates and the games will proceed on a more peaceful basis than the refs that ignore players and dish out 5 or 6 techs.

Stephon,

Why should refs accept being yelled at by Phil Jackson, scowled at by Kobe, or abused by some punk-ass 12 year olds father at Hillcrest on a Saturday morning.

The answer is NONE of these refs should have to put up with it.

I cannot beleive someone who I have always considered to be quite intelligent, articulate and basketbally savvy would come across as to almost been seen as condoning abusing refs. Perhaps not condoning it but certainly having an attitude of "it's going to happen, accepot it, move on."

Ref abuse has to stop. The AFL has taken a stance with this now, where if a player gives an umpire a spray, it's an automatic 50metre penalty, and I beleive the rule is if the player continues it's an automatic report.

As to whether the ref abuses someone because of that other persons impact on the game....

DOes the ref have to right to go up and scream at a coach when his team is getting flogged, yet his best player is sitting on the bench?? No, but it is influencing the result of the game.

Does a ref abuse the same coach who won't call a time out, yet even blnd freddy can see that's what his team needs?? No.

Does that ref get to sub in and out of the game? No, they have to run the whole game, no breaks, no chance to sit down, no chance to take it easy for 3-4 minutes. Yet even the best players get subbed for a break, to refresh their legs and minds.

A ref is expected to run the whole 40-48 minutes, keep themselves fresh and thinking straight the whole game.

About time they got some well deserved protection by by-laws.

I will also ackowledge there are some very ordinary refs out there, but at the end of the day they have made the decision to pick up a whistle and get out there, and keep the game running.

If we run out of refs, what happens then?

Hey Yogee

I'm not condoning abuse of the refs.

I'm just pointing out that the questioning of refs by coaches and players has been part of the game from day 1.

You can call me pessimistic but any solution based on a utopian situation where players, coaches, fans, parents and umpires live in harmony and no abuse/questioning occurs is just not practical in my opinion.

I'd love to offer a solution better than what I have written above but I can't.

Besides there is a lot of grey on this topic. I mean how difficult is it to define abuse?

If we are talking about a player yelling out "where's the foul?" or "3 seconds" then I say get on with the game. If you are talking about abuse of a personal nature such as "what the f*** were you watching?" then I say give out a tech.

My opinion is that from an early date, a lot of effort should go into building an umpires confidence that 99% of the questioning they will get is not of a personal nature and not to take it the wrong way.

Will result in a much better situation than an umpire going home believing that it was personal when the majority of the time it is not and is nothing more than gamesmanship/competitiveness, etc.

I mean go through the top 50 coaches and players of all time and give me a few examples that didn't speak back to the refs. I can't think of any.

Jordan, Wilt, Magic, Bird all talked to the umpires on a possession by possession basis, not just gamely basis.

Out of both list will be some fanstastic sportsmen and fair individuals off the court but highly competitive on it.

Brett Maher is a great example. He is undoubtedly a fair, fanstastic sportsman but he works the refs almost as much as one of Australia's other great sportsmen, Andrew Gaze.

If we are talking about swearing, physical confrontations, parents yelling personal abuse, etc then fair enough, the umpires should issue techs and enjoy the protection of the by-laws.

However, I stick by my opinion that wide spread instructions (especially to junior refs who are not up to speed technically) to issue techs is a bad idea.

For example, if I hit someone in the face going for a block that I would have called on myself in a scrimmage that results in a no call in the game then I am the first to say the player I hit in the face shouldn't get a tech for having a whinge.

Would it be any surprise for this player to become even more aggressive if hit with a tech?

Compare the reaction of the above player to receiving a tech with being told "sorry mate, from my angle I couldn't see it". 9 times out of 10 the latter results in the game remaining under control better than the issuing of techs.

I ask you this Yogee from your experience as a ref. Does issuing techs result in a peaceful, fair game and solve problems or does it escalate situations?

In my experience all it does is compound problems, result in further agression and frustration, and lead to teams/clubs making the issue personal by requesting certain umpires don't officiate their games.

Also, in your examples of how umpires don't abuse players/coaches for mistakes (ie blind freddy coach who doesn't call a timeout or keeps best player on the bench) how do they affect the umpire?

As an impartial spectator to the game, the umpire shouldn't care less if a coach is making a mistake. Their team will suffer but the umpire won't.

Players on the other hand are affected when no fouls are called, no 3 seconds are called, etc.

My opinion is that greater effort has to be made in the early days of a refs career in being realistic with what comes with the territory and providing support in the form of re-iterating that most questioning/abuse is not of a personal nature. Give them support in advising that it is not just them as isolated individuals who get questioned but even the leading SA refs such as Weekes as noted above.

IE Don't go into medicine if you don't like blood, don't go into law if you hate conflict, don't go into engineering if you hate maths and don't go into umpiring if you don't like being questioned.

I understand that abuse leads to umpires quitting but for every frustrated ref I guarantee that there are frustrated players, coaches and parents who are paying top dollar without the competent refs that such payment should provide.

I acknowledge the problem is circular but I stand by my opinion that any solution based on players/coaches not interacting/questioning the refs is not practical and will never happen.

Yogee, if you wish to discuss this issue further with me or seek further clarification then feel free to get my email address from Isaac.