Stephon was right!

Kevin Freeman and Ricardo Greer are two names that have been mentioned...
Ah, Ricardo was really more of a smokescreen than anything else... he's in Europe and he's earning megadollars so we were never likely to get him.

Smyth also mentioned that the 100 or so posters who had negative comments about his coaching ability out of 6,000 fans is not anything to worry about. What he forgets is that its not 100 out of 6,000, but a cross section of the 6,000. I think he is underestimating the significance of these 100 posters.

Excellent point EC.

2 quotes come to mind.

1)Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.

2)Lies, lies and statistics.

Here is a slightly different spin on the same numbers.

IF out of the 6,000 there are only 100 posters, and the vast majority of those are in fact negative, what does that tell you?

You can never be sure on the numbers though, he just made those up. I think we all think he does not call subs that well or time his timeout that good, but in the scheme of things i would bet more people are positive than negitive. I'm sure he also looks back at tapes and sees his mistakes just like the players do.

It tells you the same as most things. Only those who aren't happy make the noise. The majority who are happy with the way things are generally dont tend to speak out about it.

Happens all the time, even with political approval, approval for major things (ie tram line extension, cheltenham rface course sale etc etc).

I didn't think he came across that well in the interview, he almost had an arrogance about him that reminded me of new England football manager Steve McClaren, as though he's talking down to everyone.

Starting sentences with "Yeah, look....." or "What people have to understand is...." made me feel like he was talking down to us, and his response to Oscar and Jacob leaving was interesting, well, the institute didn't want them, no one wanted them, we pretty much did them a massive favour by even signing them, and now look, they've turned out well so where's my credit?

Also found interesting his apparent total disregard for loyalty, suggesting that everyone (including McQuade) would be out the door the second the competition offered more money

"I mean, it's like you  you might love what you are doing, but if a guy comes in and says "hey Matty, we are going to pay you more" let's face it, you'd be gone the next day. "

I see the point he's making but there's no way life is as cut and dry as that, surely he's not so naive to suggest it is?

I will put one vote towards saying it was an open and honest interview and a very good read.

The critics will read in and misquote what they want of it in any event I am sure. But it does put an interesting perspective on things from a different viewpoint.

Accept it if you will, or continue to snipe away if you prefer. I don't think Smyth should (or will) feel too much pressure from any of the posters on this forum...

After all, it is not like Smyth is the only coach to be criticised from time to time. Even the great man Goorj cops a pasting on a regular basis, and he is the most successful bball coach in Australia. Name one coach (or even on Sixers coach) that doesn't come in for criticism?

You can bet that if Smyth was not the coach of the Sixers, there would be 7 or 8 clubs out there vying for his signature.

not taking sides here at all, but was everyone saying this when we were winning championships under Phil?

you definately are anon 88196, I personally feel that Phil gets the best out of his seasoned players, but when it comes to bringing juniors through, he is not the greatest. Having said that, he has been a winner most of his career....

"IMO he can coach a winning side, but can't coach a losing one."

What do you mean by 'can't coach a losing side'? I am struggling to get my head around the concept of that.

Maybe you could give an example of someone who can coach a losing side.

Thanks #88174, your anonymous post has really changed my opinion as to the general regard that other states have for Smyth. I am glad I was able to hear it from the expert.

The one question that always stumps the knockers in this debate is: 'Who is the better choice to coach the Sixers?'

I have not seen anyone come up with an adequate answer to that question, despite numerous threads that continue to turn into an 'I hate Smyth' thread. That point alone shows up a lot of the criticism on this site as hateful and empty.

I do not take offence at constructive criticism, but I seriously question the motives of anyone who can only bag the guy. Get it in some perspective.

I would never suggest that Smyth is perfect or never makes mistakes. His coaching style is at times frustrating but at other times produces basketball that is beautiful to watch.

EC's (hopefully deliberate) misrepresentation that 'Smyth also mentioned that the '100 or so posters' who had negative comments about his coaching ability out of 6,000 fans is not anything to worry about', was neither informative, constructive or accurate, and that stuff really annoys me.

And when it comes to accusing Smyth of spin, name one coach in any sport anywhere that does not:

1. Talk up their teams chances pre-season to improve ticket sales;

2. Blame bad results on external forces outside of the coach and club's control and divert unwanted attention elsewhere;

3. Seek to try to get the best talent available onto their team at any point in time at any cost;

4. Talk up the positives of any situation, no matter how hopeless the situation may be.

The coach has a marketing role as the face of the club, and is required to do all of these things.

No coach is immune to criticism (nor should they be) but some of the above posts are not criticism but hate mail.

Why should Smyth have any regard to what people have to say on here? Most of it is a load of sh*t.

and why should he listen to crap when the person typing it is to gutless to add there name to it

Ricardo a smokescreen? No way, Isaac. Daws assured us he wasn't...

Smyth's record of 3 championships and numerous final four finishes commands respect.

The guy is a winner, as he has been throughout his entire career.

Having said that, some of the responses to the interview can be questioned but good on him for being controversial.

The comments with respect to no one really wanting Oscar and Jacob apart from the 36ers program stand out in particular. Jacob was an All-World 5 representative in an international junior tournament and the best player on his AIS team before braking his foot and joining the 36ers. He was an outstanding prospect.

Oscar likewise was a co-ordinated 6'9" athlete with good touch who never was allowed to play anymore than a Steve Kerr role within the 36ers structure when he was capable of so much more.

In the past few years we have lost Newley, Ingles, Holmes and Forman. If the Chicago Bulls hadn't stepped up, that list would also include Schenscher who was reportedly all but a signed Dragon.

I hope the Copeland signing works out well. However, my biggest fear is not how Copeland will perform but whether his signing comes at the cost of losing Hill next off-season because Smyth anchors Hill to the bench in favour of Copeland all season.

I agree with XY that abuse need not be personal but the loss of players such as Newley, Holmes, Forman, etc (and the reason why) is a topic certainly worthy of discussion on this forum.

Its not always just about the money.

XY, please explain yourself when you talk about my misrepresentations. I was merely pointing out a part of the interview where Smyth says he is not concerned about the 100 or so negative posters. He said it not I. I have never had a negative word to say about Smyth nor what I have said now is any indication of how I feel about him as a coach. I know many people who do not post on this forum and has indicated that Snyth is not doing the best job he can for the Sixers. The 100 or so negative posters represent many more than 100 when you know there are more negative people out there. This is what I mean by a cross section of 6,000. I agree what I said was not informative because it was all in the interview. I agree it wasn't constructive either because it wasn't meant to be but accurate, it certainly was. It was taken straight off the interview.

Stephon,

How did we lose Newley and Ingles - how can you lose something you never had?

Newley, yeah we let slip through some alleged lacklustre recruiting efforts.

Ingles signed elsewhere for more $$ and broke a verbal agreement. I dont know why people complain about him being elsewhere - do we really want players of the ilk of Stephen Black etc who break their word consistently for the search for more $$?

I dont think we should be to worried about players going interstate, as it happens to all states all the time, look at Victoria, they dont have kendall, barlow as a few names off the top of my head, and WA hav lost black, harvey, bruton, worthington, so we are not alone in losing players to other states, even though i to would love to have them all in 36ers colours. I say we support the team Smyth puts on the floor, as he has a great record, the only one who may be better is Goorjian, and even then Smyth may have a better winning percentage,and i prefer Smyth, and he is a proven winner and has never really had any bad recruits!!
I personally think the team is looking really good for the upcoming season, and am fully confident we will have a good 2nd import signed in the near future, the last he recruited was Farley, so lets hope that track record continues!!
Go Sixers 2006/07, lets be positive and support Smyth and the team!!

Sorry EC, I realise you are generally a Smyth fan. However, your comments did misrepresent Smyth.

What Smyth did say was: 'I mean if you say that 6,000 people come to the game, and of those 6,000, 100 are the critics, you know, it's not a bad percentage (laughs).'

In percentage terms, Smyth is saying who cares if 1.6% of the fans are critics. He said nothing about '100 or so posters', which may represent a much larger percentage of the total fans.

Smyth's guess as to the total percentage of disgruntled fans may be way off, and can be debated, but at least need to fairly represent what Smyth actually said. Just me being pedantic.

When it comes down to it, there are 7 posts on this thread criticising Smyth, 5 of which are anonymous and don't even append a usual moniker on this site and one other (GS) made their first ever post. For all we know, it could be 7 different posts from Billo (not that I am suggesting that Billo, at least you put a usual nickname to your post and discussed the article).

Isaac could say how many different ISP's were logged, but when it comes down to it, it is impossible to say how many critics there are when they hide behind anonymity.

"The comments with respect to no one really wanting Oscar and Jacob apart from the 36ers program stand out in particular."

Yeah I recall Holmes was quite highly regarded so I think that's pushinging it a bit.

With Oscar I'm not so sure how in-demand he was at the time. One thing I am sure of though is that Oscar would not have been in demand two years later, after being in the NBL for a couple of seasons. Oscar was constantly criticised by posters on the official forum and basically no one wanted him on the team. I think it's doubtful there would have been any interest for him at other clubs at that time. But hey, the 36ers stuck with him and he went close to winning most improved. He developed into one of the best 6th men in the league. It's easy to get complacent and forget that but Oscar has come a long, long way. Many doubted he would ever make it.

2 very good points posted here, Yogee you are on the money about not being able to lose something we never had, and Stephon, you are spot on about Copeland. I think he is a good steady signing for production off the bench, and I believe that he will have a point to prove this season after being screwed to the bench all year last year. However, if this is to the detriment of our youngsters receiving minutes (Hill) then we will be right back where we started in getting no production from "raw" rookies.
I personally believe that Smyth is the best coach for the sixers, however he really needs to adress the future of the sixers...which will be recruiting and playing good quality youngsters so that they can grow into quality players.

XY, don't always assume that anonymous = repeated IP or nobody. Especially not in this debate! It's a contentious issue on which many people closer to the action have an opinion one way or another.

DrE - Oscar was wanted by LMU after AIS, so he wasn't quite abandoned. He was given a quality offer by the club, but (strictly in my opinion) not necessarily the personal development that he needed to really be pushed forward. I agree that he started to improve incrementally after that second year, though I suspect part of it was just his gradually gaining confidence in the big arena, starting to hit his shots as he relaxed, and getting consistent minutes.

I will gladly hop all over the fence on the Smyth debate, but I think this year's team could be well-suited to him.

We as knowledgeable and passionate south australian basketball fans should be happy with the healthy debate that is occurring in this forum . From an outside point of view most people talk of whether phil is doing a good job or not and fair enough , yet we seem to forget how much input one steve breheny has in the running of the team , and previously scotty ninnis who was a big loss for the club .
They are a package and a winning combination . Sure there are times where rotations are slow and reactionary etc , but they deliver .
We were blessed with 3 championships early in the piece with the last being with a rather unfancied team and those moments where rooopert smashed 17 in the first half and everyone else was loosey goose raining three balls from every orifice , Priceless .
The last two years we have probably achieved optimum results for the team we had in i must say the MOST ridiculous finals format ever seen in Pro sport , pull your heads in clowns of NBL , we played some very attractive , entertaining basketball at times and on others resembled a disorganized brothel with not a pimp in sight to defend anything around the hole , next topic please.
If we look at why we can't keep some players and sign others there are other reasons beyond basketball . Maybe some just wan't a new life experience after being couped up in little old adelaide for so long.
Sure we didn't go after Newley hard enough but after investing many years in jacob and oscar who were both progressing into national caliber players you run the risk in losing one or both them , this has now happened anyway , so we look silly with empty hands .
Good luck to both , it will be the challenge they need to take their games to the next level . I do not believe we have seen the best of them and i don't think we would of in sixers uniforms .
Look if Phil and co can bring home another championship or two in the next 5 years then we will all be rejoicing and singing the praises of the little bald basketball master .

In the meantime be proud of the quality south aussie kids .

SCHENSCHER
NEWLEY
HOLMES
FORMAN
INGLES
HILL

with more to come .

Lets rally and support the club this year and show the country what we are about , WINNING and in good style .

Isaac, I am not making any assumptions. It is obvious there are lots of disgruntled people who may or may not have valid reasons to vehemently deslike Smyth and what he has done for the Sixers. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

But I am sick of seeing healthy debate on issues derailed by non-specific abuse at the person rather than constructive criticism of the person's role (See today's effort by 'I hate Brian' in thread #7895 as perfect example).

I have had my rant, things won't change, but I feel better for it. ;-)

I think that people have quite fairly isolated their criticisms - an opinion of selfishness, the perspective that there are either more than "100" critics out there, or that the 100 vocal critics represent a greater portion than "out of 6000", that he has left timeouts very late and seemingly not learnt from the problems that's caused, the view that most other clubs in the league would not pick him up, etc. I don't see how that's "non-specific abuse"?

Yogee, you posed the question, "How did we lose Newley and Ingles - how can you lose something you never had?".

In my opinion whenever we miss out on SA Juniors who have spent time training with the 36ers during their junior days to another NBL team I would define it as a 'loss'.

I'm not saying this 'loss' is solely a result of Smyth. Obviously if we had a wealthy organisation (or spend thrift management) willing to break the bank to sign Newley/Ingles they may have been 36ers in spite of the effort put in to recruit them.

All I am saying is that if you are in a public position like Smyth as a well paid coach of a NBL team then public debate is a natural consequence of us 'losing' young players like Newley, Ingles, Holmes, Forman, etc. This forum is the perfect place for such debate.

I'm sure Smyth wasn't complaining when fans were posting on the 36ers' forum that he was a messiah when he won back to back championships in his first 2 seasons.

Just because people question his efforts in recruiting/junior development doesn't mean they are necessarily saying he should be sacked.

For example, many would rate Goorjian/Dunlap as light years ahead of Smyth re the development of young players. Only players such as Maher, Rillie, Cat, Holmes, Forman exposed to both groups could truly comment on this issue.

I remember reading a great quote from Rillie where he complimented Smyth's coaching and the confidence he instills in his players. However, he also commented that they wouldn't have won the championship if it were not for the tough years of training that Dunlap put Maher, Cat, Sapwell, himself, etc through which led to them being the players they were.

From a personal standpoint, I enjoy Smyth's style of basketball a hell of a lot more than Goorjians' style. Watching last night's Boomers game reminded me of that more than ever!

However, that doesn't mean I cannot respect and appreciate Goorjian's record in developing young players in comparison to Smyth and understand why our young players are going elsewhere (which is not just because of the money).

Insightful perspective Stephon .

Whether Smyth is a good developer of juniors or not, he wins his championships using veteran players. At NBL level, first priority will always be given to winning championships and doing all you can for that to happen. Developing juniors for the future will always come second. A successful club is judged by the number of supporters it has and how competitive they are. You won't get that support if your main focus is developing juniors. The fans come to see basketball at a professional level.

The progress of a junior's development will come from training with the team to start off with but not necessarily getting major minutes on court. This will come with the improvements they make over the years. Who cares if these juniors are not local juniors but those who have developed interstate. If they have enough to offer a team, then they should be welcome regardless of where they come from.

I wouldn't worry too much about a cut in minutes to Brad Hill because his minutes will not be cut unless someone else is worthy enough of getting his minutes. He has many years of developing still ahead of him and his minutes will increase when his game is worthy of it at NBL level.

When I pay $20 for a 36ers game, I want to see a professional team performing well enough to be championship contenders. That doesn't mean I don't support junior basketball. I watch ABL games on a regular basis but NBL games and ABL games are 2 separate issues. I expect more out of NBL games.

And how do you expect to win a championship EC when all our top SA prospects are heading elsewhere?

I agree completely that it doesn't matter if a talented young player is from SA or from interstate but name me one outstanding interstate prospect we have signed during Smyth's coaching career from the AIS or out of the NCAA.

Again, money no doubt plays a major part and Smyth isn't completely to blame but I still find it alarming that I cannot think of a single player.

The last decent young interstate recruits the 36ers picked up were Cat and Rillie 10 years ago in 1996!

It is precisely because of this fact that we can ill afford to lose our top SA born players as well.

You also say not to worry about Brad Hill too much because he has many years of developing ahead of him.

Of course he has many years of developing his game ahead of him. He is 19 years old. Him developing his game is not what I was worried about.

What I am worried about is him developing his game to the point where he is the next Brett Maher of this league, scoring 20ppg over the next decade but on ANOTHER NBL team. All for the sake of getting a season out of Copeland.

I just hope I don't have to read another Smyth interview next year about how Hill has left for 'more money' after being anchored to the bench behind Copeland irrespective of how well Copeland plays.

Stephon
The level of development you give a player will not guarantee that he will stay with your club. They are all chasing better money, a change of scenery and different opportunities. The Brett Mahers of the NBL are as rare as hen's teeth and even he had an itch to go last year if a good overseas contract came up. This same argument could be had in any NBL club. As for your question about how you expect to win a championship when all your top SA prospects are heading interstate, well Smyth has won champioships but he hasn't done it because he was developing SA rookies, he did thanks to a good mix of experienced players. Whether you lack good SA youngsters or not, you always need a full squad. You will still get this even if you have to look interstate. I don't believe Smyth is responsible for a lack of opportunities for young home juniors. It is more the system where they don't have enough incentive to develop a basketball career. A lot of youngsters are studying or already in the work force where they are earning much more than being a development player for the 36ers. You talk about the good juniors that have slipped the net and headed interstate. These juniors can be counted on one hand. SA or any other state is not exactly mass producing good youngsters that have the potential to become a great NBL player. Many of them head to college in the US. Once they have developed their game there, most of them will be back here and looking for opportunities.

Agree completely EC. The Brett Maher's of the NBL are as rare as hen's teeth.

The Newley's and to a lesser degree, players such as Forman, Holmes, Hill, Ingles, Schenscher are equally rare. The fact the lost players can be counted on one hand is irrelevant.

Look at the number of championships the 36ers lost as a result of losing 1 player by the name of Bradtke.

Add Bradtke at his prime to our 94 team for example and that team wins the championship.

It is not every day that SA will produce Boomer calibre players.

That is precisely why we can't afford to lose them.

Where we are at cross purposes is that I agree with you that you need quality veterans to win championships. However, retaining the needle in a hay stack quality young players so that they are 36ers during their prime is a major step towards winning championships.

Money played a big part in losing Holmes, Forman, Ingles, Newley but it is disappointing to read these players are leaving for better opportunities, better individual training, more personal attention etc, etc.

Phil is a very good coach. He makes mistakes (as we all do, look at Brian when he coached the invincible Titans). I support him because he has delivered to me the joy of winning 3 titles in his tenure. If he keeps delivering titles I will keep supporting him, however if in five or so years time we have failed to win it all it may be time to move on...Just like any professional, he is paid to do a job and as long as he keeps finishing top 4 and making the finals (and occasionally winning it all) he is doing his job. Let's hope we can win it again this year (and let's hope they change this finals system sooner rather than later).

I think that most people's annoyance with Smyth is his habit of sitting there on the bench doing nothing when a lead (and often a game) slips away. That said, he has reigned over the greatest period of on court success in the club's history.

As far as Oscar's development, in his first couple of years in the NBL he was playing most of his time at the 4 and 5, and looked out of place. The last two seasons, he has played facing the basket at the 3 and has looked great.

With Brad Hill, people point to the Copeland signing as being a threat to his minutes, but what about signing Ng AFTER that? Who's minutes is he going to take?

It might be worth while trying to turn Hill into a part-time small forward, and let him isolate a defender from the wing, and not have to penetrate from the top.

For what it's worth, Hill looks to have bulked up a bit this off-season. Whether he can mix with small forwards like Mackinnon, Saville and Holmes remains to be seen, but he could be a chance against players like Grabau, and Boodnikoff.

They couldn't NOT sign Ng given his form, but it's still going to cause trouble with the rotation I feel. You can't have Darren going from an off-season of making big pressured fadeaways, to sitting at the end of the bench for the entire season.