Anonymous
Years ago

LAZY REFEREE ROSTERING

WHO THINKS THAT THE REFEREE ROSTERING FOR BASKETBALL SA IS CRAP. THE ROSTER DOES NOT GET PUT ON THE NET UNTIL A FRIDAY MORNING OR SOMTIMES A FRIDAY AFTERNOON.

Topic #9301 | Report this topic


yogee  
Years ago

Not as lazy as not even bothering to turn your caps lock off!!

Reply #105255 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

I agree with you Neil Poulton should get off his arse and do his job.

Reply #105259 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Cut the guy some slack. It will take time for this system, of Neil doing both seniors and Friday night rostering,to work. It would help if people stopped moaning and put in their availability form so the roster could be done in advance. For the time being we should be patient and put up with it!

Reply #105261 | Report this post


Cat in the Hat  
Years ago

Yogee, it's not often I agree with you but this time you are spot on!

Reply #105266 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Neil and UIC's are often let down by umpires that don't bother to turn up. Or even to call and organise somebody else.

Also, higher level referee's are not putting in any assistance into developing referee's or helping UIC's.

Neil needs to make ABA ref's do some Reserves games, and give ABA ref's some bonus games if they are UIC's. Have reserve ref's do Friday nights, hopefully as UIC's. And Friday night ref's do UIC's for Saturdays.

Any ref who is willing to put back into the system, should get to move up the line quicker than somebody who is just doing it for themsleves.

Reply #105270 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Just letting you know that Neil has already done the roster for the Dome on Saturday night. The sad thing is that he has to ref games because people don't put in their availability, they sit on their arses winging about the rosters not being done.

Also #9301 you didn't hav to yell everything maybe the first sentence but not the rest.

Reply #105277 | Report this post


Also, higher level referee's are not putting in any assistance into developing referee's or helping UIC's.


I beg to differ here.
The umpire in charges are hired to develop the umpires and it is not up to the senior umpires to help.

They have done the hard yards over the years themsevles, having said that there are a number of Senior Aba and National umpires who you will reguarly find out on a friday night or saturday morning.

IMO Neil does a good job considering the availability forms are slow coming in and Basa release the program slow.

I do feel though that bridgeman should do more to help him with the rosters as bridgeman is paid by basa and I am not sure what he does for his money

Reply #105284 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Junior Rosters have never been put up on a Friday morning. In the first week they were up on Thursday night (For a Saturday Fixture) This was also without inputing the information into sporting pulse. The following week they were up Thrusday afternoon on Sporting pulse. The following 2 weeks including this week they are on sporting pulse by Wednesday. Most UIC's would tell you that even before the rosters for Friday nights were done centrally they often didn't have all their referees locked in until Thursday night or even Friday.

Reply #105286 | Report this post


old sic puppy  
Years ago

bridgeman rosters referees for around 75 games a week, plus looks after the social program at wayville, supervises the referees for miniball, as well as helping poulton wherever he can.....
Do nothing???? don't think so!
Refs need to put in availability forms, coz the UIC's are STILL having to plug holes, and its THOSE refs who won't put forms in!
BTW, BASA don't exist any more, Basketball SA is a completely different body, and poulton is paid by Basketbal Adelaide to do the rostering, on top of the rest of his work. Any wonder he is getting frazzled? Remember what happened to Rod Ridley? PUT FORMS IN ON TIME, and he might just get things done

Reply #105297 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Thanks for that Mr Bridgeman.

Reply #105300 | Report this post


mp  
Years ago

Anonymous #9303, you seem like a disgruntled referee.

why dont you ring Neil to see where you are rostered instead of waiting till it is posted on the net if you are that worried?

Take some initiative!!!! Dont start some useless post if you don't know what happens behind the scenes to put the roster together.

I will gladly welcome you at Mt Barker when there are games there, it will save me doing Four Solo games in a row to make sure the games happen.

Reply #105306 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Basketball Adelaide doesnt exist yet....der!,so he is being paid by Basketball SA so you posters that think you know, know absolutely nothing.

Reply #105319 | Report this post


Matt Ryan  
Years ago

Neil Poulton is always making phone calls and changes to get the rosters done on time.

It is the referees who do not put their availability form in on time that make the job hard for Neil.

I have brought out copies for my referees at Westminster on a Friday night to fill in and then I emailled this information on to Neil.

Also, just as a side note, why would ABA referees make themselves available to referee Junior games on a Friday night if the referees out there doing the games get abused? Why should a referee who is on National Panel be bothered to come out and do games if they are going to cop the same ammount of abuse.

Let's just say for example that your ABA referees do referee on Friday nights, Saturday mornings and also fulfill their commitments to the Seniors during the week. Then, after refereeing Monday night, Tuesday night, then Friday night and then Saturday morning, then they wouldn't be in the best phsyical condition to referee the ABA games on a Saturday night! (Also, note that this scenario isn't taking into account weekends where there are Double Headers of ABA, where they would be refereeing not only ABA on a Saturday night, but also on a Sunday too!)

If the ABA referees were refereeing all of these said games, then we would have complaints that the referees wouldn't be up to standard for ABA!

I know that it isn't ABA season at the moment, but this is one of the reasons why some ABA referees choose not to ref Friday nights: to save themselves for the most important games: ABA!

(Also note that I haven't mentioned the ABA referees who are also refereeing NBL and WNBL. So, potentially, I could have also added these to the list of the "commitments" of games that some people would like the referees to be doing!)

Reply #105341 | Report this post


Darren Wilson  
Years ago

Due to Availability, the Referee roster contains vacant gaps to the day. Further changes are made to the hour for the same reason. Availabilty reasons vary; mine are always linked to work commitments (which may be anywhere in Australia at short notice). Neil and Neal through to an UIC and a ref have to bear the brunt of this. They has my full qualified support and with Paul Arnold have my sympathy for filling positions that highly stressful with comparatively small rewards.
I have seen some referees from national panel through to green shirts fill in for extra games that they would rather not do. Long and short term fatigue affects an officials performance just as much as abuse.
The real solution is an increase referee numbers: there aren't enough, there never have been in any sport and I doubt there never will be. The reason again is simple. A large percentage of humans cant cope with pressure. Be assured, Neil, Neal and Paul can. Those that can do; Those that can't, please yourselves.

Reply #105348 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Matt,

you need to do a better job of reading. No body is expecting a person to ref NBL, ABL, Reserves and juniors.

If somebody is going to ref NBL/WNBL then they should also ref ABA.

If somebody is going to Ref ABA(but are not NBL/WNBL standard) they should be refereeing reserves and Friday nights.

If somebody is going to ref reserves and Friday nights, but isn't good enough for ABA they should be doing Saturday mornings.

If ABA coaches can take the time out to do reserves and Friday nights (ala Richard Hill) then why can't referee's? If State Coaches and ABA coaches can come out and coach Saturday mornings teams, why can't referee's?

"Put in the hard yards." That is insulting to coaches and administrators who put in much more time to developing the sport. If these referee's need to "save themsleves for ABA" then clearly they aren't fit enough to do it. And maybe if you had some of these people helping with Friday nights, you wouldn't get so many complaints of referee's not being up to standard.

But again, blame somebody else! It's not those UIC's who sit around watching the same poor level of refereeing without doing anything about it!

I'm sure it's those nasty parents fault that one of our referee's was ranked 20th(out of 20) an the U14 Boys tournament in Adelaide.

You would have been barley good enough to be doing an U/18 Div 1 game 15 years ago. Now you are meant to be critiquing ref's doing these games. Under the above proposal, you would be back refereeing at your standard.

Well, not even close to good enough. And not getting any better.

Reply #105350 | Report this post


Matt Ryan  
Years ago

Anonymous (#105350),

Fair enough comment.

I was just voicing my opinion as to why some ABA referees do not ref Friday nights, if they are also refereeing ABA.

As for "those UIC's who sit around watching the same poor level of refereeing without doing anything about it", I am not one of these (and from the tone of your post, I don't think you were implying that I am one).
During to less and less referees, UICs are having to more games each night and thus, do not have the opportunity to watch the other referees. If however, I am not refereeing, I do go out and watch the referees and give them feedback. If it's not during the game that I am giving feedback, it is to them afterwards.

Reply #105351 | Report this post


wateva  
Years ago

The rosters would be a breeze if all availabilities were returned and on time but there not so you can't expect a complete roster with incomplete availabilities.

Also every senior ref should be helping by offering experienced advice and assistance to jnr refs. Where would some of the curent senior refs be today if they hadn't gotten any advice from their peers. A UIC can't cover multiple courts at the same time so it's up to senior refs to help out on the games they ae reffing if we want SA reffing to get stronger/better.

Reply #105412 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Matt,
Of course they don't becasue they couldn't dare less about basketball and are just doing it for themsleves. Bt I am sure that coe finals times they will do the glory games.

You have just admitted you are not doing your job!

Imagine if coaches did it your way!

Better still, imagine if one team had a coach who only talked to them to help them improve after the game, while the other talked to them during the game and even spoke to them during timeouts etc. Which team would improve more???

Herein lies the problem our ref's have. They are all too sesitive to have anybody, even other ref's critiquing them. I have seen you UIC, and I have seen ref's do a bad job and you say nothing!

When was the last time you let a ref know in no uncertain terms that they do a poor job and need to improve?? Ever??

Reply #105429 | Report this post


Matt Ryan  
Years ago

Anonymous (#105429),

Please, let me know which team you are associated with and I will do anything I can to make sure that my role as UIC is not being compromised by me refereeing games to cover solos. I mean, how selfish of me to reneg on my duties of UIC to put myself down on 3 games a night, to make sure that there are no solos! How selfish of me to contact referees from SA COUNTRY to come out and referee games, just for the off-chance that I don't have to ref and that I can be UIC!

Hell, I'd even take myself off your game, thus leaving you with one referee, just so then I can roam and watch the other court and do a bunn sheet on their refereeing, as it is your wish that, quite obviously, I rather be a UIC who looks at refs than rather put myself on a game and save your game being a solo!

Furthermore, all but 2 National Panel refs have been doing games so far this summer season. National League refs have been practicinig mechanics on Div 1 summer league (3 man mechanics) and they are out at juniors when they can.

Finally, Anonymous (#105429), I put my name to my posts, I make myself open for backlash and criticism....And yet it seems that you don't! Maybe you need my colostomy bag, cos the way that I see it, YOU HAVE NO GUTS!

Reply #105452 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

To compare referee development to that of players is biased, naive and ill-informed.

Basketball SA currently employs at least 3 full time people working towards player development. Not to mention the 2 trainees, and numerous coaches involved in the SASI program and local club programs.

The S.A. government invest over $500,000 into basketball development guess how much goes towards players?

Obviously basketball and it's numerous programs should be focused on those that play the game, I'm not in any way disputing that. But to compare playing development to referee development is just pointless, there's no comparison.

Referee development has be restraint for 20+ years due to a lack of attention by the previous Association. Referee development was simply a cost that the Association didn't want to know about. We are all suffering now from the poor decisions made in the past, and referee standards and numbers is just one part of local basketball suffering. Put some real resources into referee development and you'll see results. Only then will referees be properly trained and retained.

I could easily attack back by asking how much coach development happens during games. In fact how much coach development happens at all.

How often do you see a Coaching Director sit on the sidelines and evaluate a junior coach from their club? How often would that same JCD go up to a coach during the game to highlight mistakes the coach has made and/or suggest alternatives?

Anon it sounds to me like you would be the perfect person to ask about that.

Never happens.

Those who live in glass houses ....

Reply #105461 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Matt

Why is it that you have to do all of these games??? I am quite sure that those occational nights that I am "priveledged" enough to be allowed to have you referee my games you haven't been doing 3 straight. I see you talking to Leonie out at the counter as I walk in.

And I would assume that part of your job is to develop and recruit referee's so that you don't have to do games. But again, pass the buck, some one elses responsibility. It would never be the ref's that don't do extra's games jobs fault, or don't turn up, or are unwilling to do lowly "junior games".

And we will see how many ABA ref's are doing Friday and Tuesday nights in Winter.

and anon #105461

No you are wrong! Referee's have farily similar breaks to players. When would you like my coaching director to come and talk to me during a game? A UIC could easily speak to referee's during time outs and and breaks between quarters. Just like players do.

But during these times coaches are a bit busy talking to the players to be able to listen to their Coaching Director. I would be anyway.

And who are these 3 full time people working towards player development. My understanding is that we only have Neil Gliddon, who I would assume is funded by SASI? And his job is elite player development, not all players. I might be wrong, but please, name another.

If you are talking about the development officers. HA. I would agree that the job of the develoment officers is a joke, that the money spent there it is being flushed down the drain. But that is not the clubs doing it. That money never see's any coach or player development either, well other than accrediting coaches. Which is pretty much a joke. When I did mine it was about as much help as I would guess that ref's get from there courses. 8 Hours of somebody talking so they can get paid. But I got a peice of paper.

Coach development is left clubs who do not generate income other than fee's. (Note: not people getting paid to do the job) And considering the results of SA teams I guess it shows that we are doing a fair job.

But the standard of refereeing development is doing a poor job. But don't listen to anyody. Ref's are doing great, it is everybody else who is wrong.

Even though you yourself Matt say that we have a referee shortage. There is no problem.

Even though you admit that referee's have had a lack of attention from the previous adminiatration. (Don't worry, I won't tell your current boss) Keep telling people that there is nothing wrong. That it is somebody else's fault.

Just like a alcoholic guys, the first step to sobriety is admitting you have a problem!

Reply #105473 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

No one is claiming there is no problems.

That being said coming on a web forum and personally attacking people and doing so anonymously isn't going to acheive anything either though.

Reply #105474 | Report this post


Matt Ryan  
Years ago

Anonymous (#105473)

"Even though you yourself Matt say that we have a referee shortage."
YES, I did state that.

"Even though you admit that referee's have had a lack of attention from the previous administration."
I would just like to know if when you say the word "you", are you meaning ME (personally) or just in general terms? If you are using the word "you" meaning ME (personally), I ask you to look back over my posts. Never once do I (personally) state this, or even allude to it.

Reply #105475 | Report this post


ok  
Years ago

Matt Ryan
Good on ya mate - dont listen to this half wit who get's on here and does not have the bulls to put his name to a post which criticises you for how you do your job

the sad thing is "i bet he is a ref"

you refs who bitch all the time - get a life!!!

the fact is there is a shortage of umpires and poulton is trying to increase the numbers but we dont need some of the umpires who are on a different page to people like Matt Ryan who want to do the right thing by the game





Reply #105491 | Report this post


Matt Ryan  
Years ago

Anonymous (#105473),

"Why is it that you have to do all of these games??? I am quite sure that those occational nights that I am "priveledged" enough to be allowed to have you referee my games you haven't been doing 3 straight. I see you talking to Leonie out at the counter as I walk in.

And I would assume that part of your job is to develop and recruit referee's so that you don't have to do games. But again, pass the buck, some one elses responsibility. It would never be the ref's that don't do extra's games jobs fault, or don't turn up, or are unwilling to do lowly "junior games"."

When I am talking to Leonie, is this at the beginning of the night, or after my game, or just before I start my next game? And no, I haven't been doing 3 straight, but for the past 2 wks I have been doing 3 games in a night.

"And I would assume that part of your job is to develop and recruit referee's so that you don't have to do games."

Well, I have been gettign refs to WESTMINSTER. In fact, when one referee moved to Adelaide from Kangaroo Island for university studies, I have actually now got her out to ref at WESTMINSTER on Friday nights. Also, I have been informed that some referees do want to come out to WESTMINSTER to ref on a Friday night, and as Neil Poulton is now in charge of rosterring, I have passed on the information that these refs need to get in contact with Neil.

Again, please put your name to your posts. I'm big enough to, why don't you? Or is it that you are like me and require a colostomy bag?

(Mod: Please Matt, quit asking the same question/using the same "joke" multiple times. It wasn't funny the first time, and is less funny each time.)

Reply #105508 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Gee, that would be smart.

So now you and all other ref's could go out a screw me every game! Sure I'll tell you my name.
And obviously you havn't been getting ref's to Westminster as you have had to do games.

And no Matt I wasn't just talking about you. I was refering to the umpiring fraternity.

And you didn't answer the important question. Why is it that a UIC's can't talk to the referee's during a game tyo help them improve?

Reply #105514 | Report this post


Matt Ryan  
Years ago

Anonymous (#105514),

Ok then, I apologise for some of my comments to you then. There are some instances when it is directed at me, but for the ones where it is directed towards "the umpiring fraternity", I apologise. I was under the impression that they were all being directed at me.

"So now you and all other ref's could go out a screw me every game! Sure I'll tell you my name."

I would not go out and screw you on your games. I have been able to distance myself from personal feelings to my professional life as a referee. Many people will testify that each game is a new game with me and I do not carry anything over from other games. So I wouldn't go out and screw you!

"Why is it that a UIC's can't talk to the referees during a game to help them improve?"

I can only answer for myself in this case. During time outs, if I feel that I can give assistance (ie. "more talk needed", "clearer signals", "move across the split line", "movement off the baseline to get a better field of vision", "penetrate closer", etc.) then I will. There have been instances when the issue would take longer than 60 seconds and so I wait for an opportunity for more time (this might be at the end of the night or during this referee's break).

Once again, I apologise for some of my comments to you. I wasn't able to distinguish between the issues posed directly at me and those at the refereeing fraternity in general.

Reply #105517 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Matt,

As much as you would like everybody to think thatyou are able to "distance yourself". We are all human, and some of your partners may not be able to do as good a job as you at it.

If you are trying to say that some coaches and players don't get the raw end of the deals more often than others, it is you who are now being a little nieve. Not saying that often this isn't bought on by their actions. But basic human nature says that people will not be able to remove themselves totally from personal attacks. Hence your previous reply's.

Reply #105521 | Report this post


Matt Ryan  
Years ago

Anonymous (#105521),

I do like it how we have both gone from a "fired up" arguement to now a more civilised discussion.

Judging from how this conversation had started, I would think that you might be a lot like me: We don't want ppl agreeing with us just for the sake of agreeing. What I would much prefer is for them to say "Ok, I don't agree with your standpoint, BUT I can see where you are coming from"
Would this be correct?

And yes, I would say that there are some referees out there who have a hard time making that distinction. And their are some ppl who do get the raw end based purely on "pre-conceived notions" and "reputations".

Reply #105525 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Matt,

Your the one getting fired up.

I am merely pointing out that we are continually told that referee's are doing a good job. And the UIC's are helping to improve referee's.

If Neil Poulton is doing the rostering, why are we paying UIC's?

But considering they don't coach the referee's as much as the team coaches do the players. How are they evrey going to maintain a standard equivalent with players?

Reply #105533 | Report this post


Matt Ryan  
Years ago

I would just like to know what other people would have done in my position Saturday night at WESTMINSTER.

I was UIC and due to referees being unavailable, I was reffing a SOLO on 20M1 on Court 1. On Court 2, there were 2 referees doing 18g2.

After an incident occurred when I had to stop my game, and go and speak to one of the coaches from the 18g2 game, I was told that "as UIC, I should be watching the referees!"

Now, what would have people have liked me to do?

1) Watch the referees, thus not umpire and we have a case of either one game gets cancelled or a SOLO on both courts; or
2) Bring one of the referees over from court 2 to help me on court 1 (the "tougher" game) and have a SOLO on court 2; or
3) Do what I did, forgo being "UIC" at that moment, be a referee and stop either a SOLO on both courts OR a cancellation of a game?

Reply #106153 | Report this post




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