Isaac, I've just been going over Rachel's documents and I can see absolutely nowhere where it makes any reference whatsoever to $50m in tangible assets- that is something every existing club, and interested newcomer would remember like a sore head.
I have just texted her and she states that at no time in her verbal conversations with Chuck over the past few months (for which she takes meticulous notes) was that figure or anything close to it, ever mentioned.

And for the record, there is no way in hell that Perth would have that kind of collateral!!!

"If any ownership group is unable to meet the new financial criteria, then there are clearly serious questions around the long-term viability of that team."

Erm...

Have a look at the 5000+ crowd at every Sixers game.

There's the answer to your viability questions right there.

So did they all really agree before on how to run basketball ? Is this just a game of chicken ?

Why can women's basketball be so much more progressive and going forward when our men's basketball including nbl is in such a mess ? Powerplay ??

I'm going against you boys here....I think the NBL should be in control, not allow rogues such as Mal and others control what they want thru the wrong mediums...

once the nbl et some feet and some balls, the rest will follow...hence why Sengstock might be OK with this...

Time to go Mal, but what may also go is the 6ers..

Defence there are definately way too many dinousaurs, golf buddies and has-beens living in the past that are clogging the artery of Australian basketball.
Mates don't want to offend mates and are blind to their ineffectiveness has been the order of the day for sure.
Some changes have been made eg with Chuck, Larry and Derwin, but not significantly across the board- it is still very much a little boys' mates club who think with their penises.
I would love to see some switched on women in there that know how to leave their egos at home, but it's doubful if they'd be welcome- rather be seen as rocking the boat.

I don't know how viable the Sixers actually are, so I can't really comment...I guess BA are just lucky that even if we can't get the Sixers in the league this year, we'll still rock up and support them when they get back in. With bigger crowds than anywhere else, of course.

One positive - the speedy, comprehensive and professional response by the NBL. Well done

Can I ask, what does the NBL actually own in regards to assets?

I know they control the licenses, but as for monetary assets.
Does anyone know?

^^^ agreed.

I was going to count the number of times Sixers Admin has done it's best to piss off BA, but I don't have Mahervelous handy. Suffice to say, we can add another instance - one that won't exactly help the club survive.

Stating the obvious - someone with cash needs to gamble on the new league being slightly less atrociously run than the old one and buy the franchise.

I just can't believe this ball club may go under.

HAHA, I think the $50m is a concession to Bendat trying to avoid the bank guarantee. His wealth in 2001 was estimated at $400m - more than $50m. ;)

thedoctor, agreed - thought they made their points well.

Dracula, great crowds sure, but doesn't guarantee a profit or that someone has the pockets to deal with the cash flow or losses on their own.

DWG, re WNBL, smaller owners less inclined to throw their weight around?

As I said here or elsewhere, the league would've allowed non-compliant bids to the table to get numbers and then banked on being able to convince them or make reasonable compromises. End result may be more of the past troubles. Pretty tough issue - it is the owners' money after all.

* I was agreeing with thedoctor's post

Loco, can't buy the franchise is the owner won't sell it for less than a pretty high (IMO) price.

Yeah, from what I've read I completely agree Isaac. I've done my best not to jump on the Mal Hate Wagon, but it's getting pretty difficult when the franchise is literally at stake.

Might be the wrong wagon - what if it's not his asset to sell?

Nothing wrong with holding out to achieve your price if it's a second hand car, or a house, but this is an asset to which thousands of fans are reasonably attached.

I'm siding with the NBL on this one.

If you can't prove you are financially stable you're not in.
No point in creating a new league only to have teams continue to fall over.

Bye Bye Sixers.

1000 people with $1000 each = $1,000,000
2000 people with $500 each = $1,000,000

Community based team?
Too late I fear.

Good point re: wagon. I hadn't subscribed to that theory previously, despite it making a lot of sense.

Oh the deja vu is hitting me hard in that statement Isaac.
As for the Bendat issue being a concession for the bank guarantee, surely all other clubs are right to baulk if there are alternatives to the bank guarantee that they are not being made aware of or are inconsistent between teams?
How is it measured?
The criteria makes reference to either the bank guarantee or an alternative defined by BA- how long is a piece of string?
If they tell a club to jump, how high are they supposed to know to jump?
I can see why it is such a contentious issue for them.

"Tag, you're it"
"Nah ah. That doesn't count"
"What? Perth and South tagged you like 5 minutes ago..."
"We were barleys then"
"Barleys?"
"Yeah, we mentioned that, right?"

Needs to be the same rules for all teams. Full stop.

Maybe the new NBL has gone abhout it the wrong way. the NSL transformed into the A-League with virtually all-new franchises. The same with the netball - all-new franchises.

That means the old wood gets cleared out, everyone is on the same page, and you can start fresh. I don't want to get rid of history for the sake of it, but when not everyone is pulling together in the same direction for the sake of the sport, then something more drastic needs to be done. Hard decisions need to be made and it must come from the game's governing body.

The Dragons and Wildcats need to be rbought to account and made to fall in line. Finally I actually agree with Seamus and support his reaction to their defiance.

The one good thing about this issue - and it is albeit small - is that the NBL had finally acted quickly and come out with a statement - clear cut and to the point.

They have to jump $50m high. The string is $50m long. Where's the inconsistency?

Some teams submitted bids that were not compliant with regard to the guarantee but were otherwise valuable. The league has reacted by adjusting their criteria - I don't think the one they've chosen is that outrageous at all and certainly doesn't appear to be inconsistent.

The beef in this case is that Hemmerling can't seem to meet either. Meanwhile, two other clubs (who also had ample warning) mobilised their communities to meet the requirement.

From the press release:

as was discussed openly at the recent summit, which this particular team chose not to be represented at.

It's like it's been a permanent "work experience day" for the Sixer's Admin since the Powerhouse opened it's doors.

Loco, couple of great posts in this thread. Waiter, an orange ball for the steam train in the corner!

I'll second what was said earlier as well - excellent response from BA in that press release. I'll be very interested to hear how Mal defends himself on radio.

If the Sixers had so many concerns with how things were working, WTF would they not be represented at the recent summit? Lunacy!

Also, its pretty hard to complain about criteria that you previously agreed to months ago.

BA should not be giving Perth and South special treatment either. Seamus was absolutely right to resign over that issue.

Beantown, would you have called their bluff (two teams you'd definitely want involved), if the alternative was that they have $50m in assets to show their strength?

Even when Eddy went down, he had enough left to see out the season (plus pay for an extravagant wedding!) and, remember, not leaving players/staff in the cold is their primary concern. Bendat and Cowan would be in the same position in that regard.

McPeake was on the out eventually so might've just decided to do it in a notable way. Like quitting in a blaze of glory after hearing plans to make you redundant.

Isaac, I agree that the NBL would be pretty well unviable if Perth and South weren't in. The problem is that having to make all these concessions to get enough teams in the league seriously undermines the credibility of BA and the standards it has set for the new league.

It creates a situation where other teams will start demanding special dispensation. Obviously Mal is trying (badly it appears) to lobby BA for an exemption and I'm sure there are likely to be some protests from Wollongong and Cairns who just busted their @sses to get a guarantee which is now being undermined.

Number one, BA should have made it clear that $50 mill in assets was an acceptable alternative at the start of the process, not after the process when some clubs start whinging that they can't afford $1m. You can't keep moving the goal posts if you want to be taken seriously.

Number two, if Bendat has $400m in assets, what is the problem with him providing a $1m guarantee?

The whole reorganisation is looking like a failure to me. Surely the criteria should have been set up to ensure that a team who can get 4-5000 fans out per game will be able to operate as a profitable business?

Given that Mal has been shopping the team all over and hasn't been able to sell it, the numbers for profitability clearly aren't adding up for prospective owners.

To me, the numbers need to add up first, then we can work out how much teams can afford to pay players and remain profitable. Once that is known, a realistic salary cap and other minimum financial requirements can be set up.

I'd actually like to see teams turn enough of a profit that they can afford to make a mandatory payment to a central marketing fund for the league as well.

Then we might get a stable league for a few years that we can gradually grow again once the financial crisis is over.

I don't think it undermines credibility. The reason some sort of guarantee is required hasn't changed, they've just added a way that a club can meet the requirement. Same presumably went for when (it was rumoured that) the Breakers put up their training facility in place of a bank guarantee, for example.

For the sale of the team, it's not just about profitability but the asking price. I can keep saying a Ferrari is worth $x00k, but it's only really worth that if someone will pay that.

Give Isaac's post 232725 A little ball.

The Simple thing that the BA dont state is what THEY are going to do to make sure the league survives. Would you invest money in a sport thats clouded in secrecy about whats going to be done differently than previous failings.
If the BA expects investors to put their savings into their league perhaps they should come out and tell them what they are getting, instead of blaming everyone else.
The BA wants to run basketball, but they cant run the setting up of a league, no way would i put my money into that...

Course is 2000 others are willing to pay $500 i will lol

I think Mal did the right thing, he came out to the media and said...we are in the shit, surely this isnt just to piss the BA of but to make potential investors aware that the team could be gone if they dont put their hands into their pockets.
Be even nicer if the government could take some of the $40mill they gave to United to help them out thou huh.

Skud, why not say it months ago? Why just now a day or two before he goes away for five weeks?

What can the NBL guarantee when it comes to number of teams, number of games, the TV deal, and season timing? Not a lot until the teams are locked in, I'm guessing. Fox likely won't state their case until they know the teams involved, and that probably dictates the schedule and number of games.

mal sucks, hope he never comes back from his 5 week trip, he puts himself above the club to often, he should sell now and stop asking way too much. To even consider us out is terrible, how big is this guys ego, hope his business rep gets trashed from this.

"I don't think it undermines credibility"

Sorry Isaac, I disagree. With Perth and South getting BA to change the goal posts after everyone has put their bids in, it just shows who really has the power in the new league. That only encourages other teams to try things on and before you know it you are conceding all kinds of stuff.

Its not ideal, having to call their bluff, but I thought BA was trying to enforce higher standards in the new league? If they want things to change they have to be bold and show existing owners its not going to be how it used to be.

How about testing Perth and South to see how committed their owners really are to having a team in the league? If they aren't committed enough to put in $1mill and follow the rules they agreed to, maybe they aren't the guys the league needs?

It would actually be good for the league if we cleaned out a bunch of people and got some fresh leadership, given how poorly the league has been going for most of the last decade.

The other thing is, it could also be that now is just a really bad time to try to attract investment for a new league. Conditions might be much more favourable a year from now and we might then get what the NBL needs: competition for licences.

The one good thing I can see about all this nonsense is that Perth, Adelaide and Melbourne all have the supporter base to sustain a team in the long run. If the current owners don't get entry to the league, they will be in danger of losing out to a rival bid down the track.

I think taking a year off might work well. It might light a fire under some people so that they don't take their place in a national basketball competition for granted!

Oh yeah, I meant to comment about Mal's asking price too.

I don't know if he is asking too much. But if the league takes a year off, the pressure builds on Mal, who clearly wants out of the basketball business.

I think another year will give the Adelaide basketball community enough time to find a consortium to take over the 36ers at the right price.

We can't afford another half-@ssed owner who doesn't really have the financial wherewithal to run the team, so I'd much rather wait, because I think the right deal will shake itself out in time.

Not a lot in Australian basketball is ideal, and the reform as it's progressed is no exception.

They have proceeded with the acceptance of non-compliant bids, because if they were to refuse those, there might not be enough teams for a league.

Shut out Perth and South and you take out two decent teams, but keep in a couple of flakey options propped up by donations. I know what I'd prefer if I were looking for security and success.

If you accept that either the $1m or $50m criteria are reasonable, you presumably have 8 starters leaving just Adelaide to improve their club foundation, and I think that's a pretty reasonable request given Adelaide's position. Achieve that, and I don't think the NBL is a "joke" (not quoting you, the other thread) and I don't think the NBL is "DEAD" (another thread again).

The $1m has been on the cards for months. Adelaide sent no representative to the summit. Smaller regional areas managed to put up the guarantee through community support, but the same was never even attempted in Adelaide.

The situation isn't black (enforce the $1m, lose the 36ers) or white (waive the $1m, hopefully keep the team going until at least tip-off). There's a significant expanse of grey where the current owner(s) sell the club to others in a better position to take a crack at it.

Yeah, I'm hoping for a bit of grey for the 36ers right now!!! LOL

I understand where you are coming from Isaac. I'm just not as worried about the NBL getting a league happening this year, when there still seems to be a lot of people trying to bend the rules, and the global financial crisis is probably discouraging a lot of potential bidders from getting involved.

Whenever the new league starts, lets just hope we both can enjoy some good basketball that includes a competitive Sixers team!

Mal needs to realise from his own experience as owner that the team was losing money for him. He is the first private owner of the club and therefore accept that he has lost money out of it by selling it at a reasonable price that will attract buyers. If he can't make money out of it, he can't expect to get a price that is beyond reasonable for the asset. If he thinks that the sort of price that has been offered is too low and the new buyer will actually make money out of it, why can't he sign off on the contract with a clause that he gets a small cut from the profits in the next few years? I am sure that any prospective buyer would agree to that considering they bought the team for a low price and any profit is going to be a bonus anyway. If there is no profits, then he knows he has sold the team for a reasonable price. I think what Mal is expecting is that someone else is going to take over the losses he has had in the last 3 years. No one wants that.

Im sorry to hear the theories being banded around on this site that have been misguided from incorrect information. As a person interested in buying the team I can say that Mal is asking a fair price. Fact

I can say that basketball clubs including the Adelaide team would not make a profit given the current costs and crowds. Fact

The new NBL has stated that they would accept non complying bids Fact

The foxtel deal is reliant on a team in Adelaide FACT

It is the costs associated with players and general costs that are the issue, the NBL is asking for the guarantee because it knows that clubs will not make a profit under the current salary cap criteria.

I don't beleive that the NBL is being completely accurate about what it has discussed in relation to terms

Opinion If you have a model based on clear profit targets that are achievable then a guarantee would not be needed. The NBL has let basketball down by not providing this framework.

You cant pay millions to run a club if you can't bring in enough revenue to cover these costs.

The NBL is asking the owners to give money away every year on basketball so they don't have to accept any responsibility for providing a profitable franchise option

We all want basketball to work but it is a business and it does need to make a profit. As the master franchisee the NBL needs to accept this responsibility

Some of the staff are over paid FACT

where is the league without the TV money? If the TV deal needs adelaide, is mal using this as his big chip? To me all this talk is business men trying to call each others bluff ultimately at the expense of the fans.

Chris Fuss thanks for your views. It is good to hear that someone who may be in a position to buy the team understands that a sustainable league requires a profitable business model.

I am not sure of the exact model BA and the clubs agreed to, but the complete lack of competition for new franchises in the league certainly suggests that most business people don't think a profit can be made under the new league structure.

This problem is no doubt exacerbated by the current financial crisis.

So once again, I think the best thing that could happen for the league is to take a year off. BA and the owners should sit down and agree on a sustainable business model that will attract serious owners. This means lowering the salary cap and paying players at a level that can be supported.

A new league should NOT go ahead until the right model is in place.

p.s. - if someone knows the details of the new NBL structure and can show me how it will lead to sustainable team business models league wide I will quite happily admit I am wrong. But from what I have seen in the past few months, I doubt it.

yes but need some other partners

Are you the real Chris Fuss?

Yes Jack it is me....Issac can confirm it is.

#232967, I would like to agree with you however there has been every indication over the last 3 years that Mal has had financial problems meeting the cost of running the 36ers. I would not say that financially the club has proven to be a safe bet without the guarantee. Sure some credit has to be given to him for resurrecting the 36ers 3 years ago but he cannot sustain it for much longer without the risk of him packing everything in mid season. The sort of risk that the NBL is trying to avoid with the guarantee is the sort of risk that the 36ers are likely to present with its current owner.

Chris, good to hear from you on this forum.

Chris, appreciate your comments on this board! My question to you, isn't Mal looking for a Partner? Or could he be a Partner with your bid?

And how do or did you feel about the entire Hodge situation?

Chris, thanks for your comments & sharing some facts / opinions with this forum.

What are your thoughts on Seamus McPeake successful busness model that is reported to make a consistent profit with the tigers?

He has expressed interest in the Dome / 36ers so must be confident the same business model can be adopted & successful in Adelaide. I can't image him wanting ot purchase it as a tax write off.

Can you & other investors enter into a joint venture with McPeake adopting this model which will also reduce the risk of all equity parties.

At this late stage can you see us fielding a team this season in the new NBL?

Cheers

Excellent Chris......Finally we have someone on here that has provided the facts about this instead of these other posters who think they know the insides of what is going on.

It is very emotinal issue and it os easy for posters to throw stones but it appears that no one is really taking into consideration the business side of this topic. I would put money on it that not one of you posters out there would make a business decision to continually lose money every year. If you say you would then i certainly dont believe you. Yes it is about a local icon but at the end of the day it is a business and it needs to make money.

As Mal has said he has approached lots of different people to purchase the team. Now everyone is saying that it is his fault that no one is willing to buy it in the current climate. As Chris has stated Mal is not asking too much for the team.

Could you run the organisation leaner that what it is now...probably yes. Are any of the posters on here (excluding Chris Fuss) willing to poney up the asking price...NO.

Thanks for your question A

Yes Mal and I have discussed a joint bid but he needed a 2 more investors to come on board to make it work

There is safety in numbers as this club requires a lot of work to turn it around

Hi Jake

Yes I can see an Adelaide side and I do beleive that the McPeake model would work.

As far as venture partners are concerned that is up to Seamus

The issue here is how much Eddy wants for the Dome

sorry A

To answer the Hodge question I think he received some poor advice from his mentors. I know that if his agent had read the contract he would have realised he was actually paid in advance.

NVS, no, it's just someone whose perspective agrees with yours. That doesn't necessarily make it the absolute truth.

You state that Chris is the only person here willing to put up the funds, but is that correct? Firstly, he hasn't yet paid that price. Secondly, it might be that another potential owner has the same roadblock that is preventing Chris from taking action.

What Chris might think is a reasonable price, might be too high for someone else's calculations. He's put that up as a fact when it's actually an opinion, right? (No offense, Chris - I hope you'd agree.)

And the note about non-compliant bids hasn't been a point of contention. And the one about the Fox deal might note that a Fox deal required Sydney from what we've all heard.

That leaves the rest about it being a tough business - no one's pretending that the 36ers are easy to fix and profit from.

I wouldn't assume Chris is the only person on here who has looked at the books and shown interest - I would say that there are at least two others who've read and posted on here for 1-2 years, at least, in that same position.


Chris, if you've looked at buying the team outright, and Mal could do it with 2-3 investors helping, could you put up the amount to cover that and make a go of it with Mal? With the bank guarantee requirement fulfilled?

Hi Isaac

Some good points

No on in life ever has all the facts, lets just say that mine was an informed opinion

As far as Sydney are concerned it is fair to say that the league may run that side in the first year to comply with foxtel.

The last point about a bid with Mal is yes, it could happen so if you know of another 2 investors Im sure Mal would take their call.

This is a more complex issue than I can say both at a local and national level with people who are not looking only at the best interest of basketball, except maybe seamus

Isaac, i certainly didnt mean to imply that Chris was the only one willing to put up the funds. I am sure there may be one or two others on here that have looked at the figures but what about the other 20+ posters who arent informed? (PS: Yes i am a very informed poster)

You say that no one is saying it is easy to fix and make profit from. I agree it is not an easy issue to fix with the current climate and the current state of Basketball in Australia. As i said there is a lot of emotion with this issue but it is a business. I am sure you wouldnt continue your business if you kept losing money. Other posters on here however appear to be letting the emotion take over.

I understand that Mal has been trying to get a consortium together to share the burdon (including Chris) but is struggling to get investors even at that level. Unfortunately it isnt really the right time for a lot of people.

^^

Does Erik know he will be getting shared around?
If so, is he okay with this?

NVS, or maybe it's just not the right scenario for some and not just related to the downturn?

Hi Chris,
Thanks for being willing to share some of your thoughts with this forum. There is still a question I have which no-one seems to have answered. The possible bid with Mal that you are talking about, does that include purchasing the Dome from Eddy Groves, or are you just talking about buying the Sixers?

My question to Chris and everyone ewlse how can other clubs excist on 2.5 k to 4.0k attendances and we have 4.5 to 7.5k and we are going to lose money on .
So something is inflated here the price of Sixers or Dome and running costs smewhere in there as well.
Possibly a big problem is you have main ownership with a bankrupt and he is trying to drag personal money from anywhere to live life he is used to .
But to Chris and any other interested owners please do what you can to keep our club alive.

Isaac, whats the other scenario? put there own consotrium together and buy the team? buy the team by themselves? There arent that many alternatives. So in your view why isnt it happening?

Still laughing out loud at DB5's post... I hope it doesn't dent Erik's self-esteem too much that investors haven't been forthcoming.

Beantown I would love to buy the Dome as well as the team. It is the perfect scenario. Unfortunately I cannot get a straight answer on lifting the caveats and am therefore restricted as to what I can do with it to generate other income.

BTM a lot of other clubs have over the years developed other income streams which means they dont just rely on basketball.Some other clubs can run at a loss because their owners are extremely wealthy and its a tax offset. Even though our crowds are bigger (at times double)because we dont have other income streams or a really rich owner we have to rely on corporate sponsorship where most of the decisions on corporate sponsorship are held interstate. However the 36ers could be extremely profitable if we could sell out our season tickets and have all corporate boxes full. This would be our first target. Some teams are able to wear the smaller crowds because they are set up so that any ticket bought is profit. Their costs are paid for with other income generated eg sponsorship etc. IMO there is too many contra (with contra you never get your moneys worth)deals and not enought upfront cash. You need the cash to pay the bills.

Some of the bills you have to take into account are rental (office, game night, training venue) , player and staff wages, travel and accomodation, insurance, license fees, NBL charges, medical costs, sponsor costs, advertising, marketing, game night staff ......the list goes on

NVS, own consortium.