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Isaac
Last year

#30807

36ers first half, second half scoring disparity

Adelaide Now has an article in the usual section about the scoring disparity between halves by the 36ers at Adelaide Arena:

"In 13 home games Adelaide is averaging 40.1 points in the first half but just 34.5 points in the second."

Clarke and DJ both discount the rings themselves being an issue, noting they train equally on both. Also, fatigue is unlikely as the 36ers average more in second halves on the road.

Something the article doesn't raise and that immediately occurred to me is that in first halves in Adelaide, the team play in close proximity to the coaches. That is, it's quite possible that with a complex system, players are more likely to be in the right spots if the coaches can remind them firsthand by calling out and directing traffic. Across 20 minutes of play, that could potentially mean 2-3 more buckets and the difference in close games.

Down the other end, and with less influence from courtside, complex plays might unravel and look disorganised? Just from personal viewing, most of the horrible passages certainly seem to occur down "the other end." Massingale has acknowledged there's a lot to learn of the Adelaide system. Many suspected that Simpson struggled with it a bit. I've wondered about Creek (for all his intensity and efforts) and a couple of others who get pointed around by teammates when they out of position.

However, the away team always plays the second half away from their bench and Adelaide are, according to the article, better in this situation on the road - 7.8 points better in second halves.

That's quite a curious disparity. While the home scores alone push my theory, do the road numbers completely discount it?

Is it worth looking at opposition numbers too in case second halves see improved team defensive rotations in front of the coaches?

If the theory has legs, two things the coaches could try are:

- simplify the system
- make sure all players continually talk and direct teammates to position to keep things on track

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Anonymous
Last year
09:14 13 Feb 13

Reply #404136

re: 36ers first half, second half scoring disparity

Very interesting Isaac, keep up the good work, hopefully the coaches = Marcus Camby are reading :P they could sneak a coach over the other end of the court to help them run plays they should have sorted out this end of the season... Complex to complex for fatigued brains???


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KET
Last year
09:19 13 Feb 13

Reply #404137

re: 36ers first half, second half scoring disparity

Boti Nagy still on holidays, or did he get sacked?


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hoopie
Last year
09:58 13 Feb 13

Reply #404143

re: 36ers first half, second half scoring disparity

Good analysis and good thread, Isaac.

I wonder if the answer is the home crowd.

In the first half at home, the players are close to the coaches, as you say.
In the second half, players are far from the coaches and there's more chance of things going wrong (as you say).
The difference is that for home games when things go wrong then their 'supporters' will turn on them, and players are bound to react to it. When they play away, the crowd will be against them throughout.

Based on your stats for home and away, it can't be that Marty's half-time address does more harm than good, because they still play a good second half away.
Also, it can't be that the other coach has worked out the 6ers sytem by then and just needs the half-time address to fill in his players, for the same reason.


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Jack Toft
Last year
09:59 13 Feb 13

Reply #404144

re: 36ers first half, second half scoring disparity

Isaac, some good points. There is something quite unusual going on here.

On road: 33.1 first half: 40.9 second half
At home: 40.1 first half: 34.5 second half

Both on the road and at home, the teams are playing at their coaches end in the first half, so you would not expect a disparity if the coach had an influence.

Each offensive possession generally ends one of two ways. A shot on goal, or a turnover. I would be interested to see the disparity between halves in shots on goal and turnovers (if any), or even rebounds. If the issue was because it was a complex offensive system, then you would expect that as the scoring drops off the turnovers would increase (poorly completed plays) and the shooting % remains the same. If it was an execution issue, then the shooting % would drop and the defensive rebounding rate of the other team could increase.
(Any miss on goal is either going to be collected as a defensive rebound, or an offensive rebound)



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paul
Last year
10:04 13 Feb 13

Reply #404145

re: 36ers first half, second half scoring disparity

I would like to see stats as to second half production when they are in front at half time compared to when they are trying to come back from a deficit.


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Statman
Last year
10:07 13 Feb 13

Reply #404146

re: 36ers first half, second half scoring disparity

I think its a bit more simplistic than that.

The team starts off by executing the game plan prepared for during the week to take advantage of whatever weaknesses the opposition are percieved to have. Then as the game plays out and especially at half time the opposition are able too some adjustments to counter what Adelaide are doing well. Then it just seems that Adelaides offence simply falls in a heap.

I think some of the players have shown a lack of 'basketball IQ' and ability to adjust on the run and this is starting to show with Gibbo in particular getting frustrated at team mates for not being where they should be on court. Sure Offence A may be the plan at the start of the game but when option A stops working and we need to run options B,C and D to get a score having guys who cant adjust to that on the go isnt good enough

In the end though, Its the coaching staff who have put this team on the floor, and if Clarke and Radford have recruited dumb basketballers to run complex offensive sets then thats on their heads.


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Isaac
Last year
10:30 13 Feb 13

Reply #404147

re: 36ers first half, second half scoring disparity

hoopie:

"The difference is that for home games when things go wrong then their 'supporters' will turn on them, and players are bound to react to it."

Do you go to home games? Do you have a lot of consistent examples? This "toxic" arena thing is overblown IMO. There are a lot of negative comments on Hoops or elsewhere on social media, but the crowd at games is pretty supportive even when the team is down. Maybe sometimes they're quieter during a particularly bad stretch, but not until that's well-established.

"When they play away, the crowd will be against them throughout."

Why the first/second half disparity on the road then?


Statman, to you too - how does that apply on the road?

Might be something in paul's suggestion of leading rather than pursuing though.

---

NBL's team stats are only current to Round 11 so would be missing a fair few losses. The 36ers beat their general opponents on FG%, level on 2P%, ahead on 3P%, ahead on rebounds, assists and blocks. Yet foul more, have 55 steals to 91, and a lot more TOs (172-126).


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The_Champ33
Last year
10:33 13 Feb 13

Reply #404148

re: 36ers first half, second half scoring disparity

There was some valid points in this article.

I have found over the years including Phil's last 2-3 season + Ninnis era that shots don't always fall and players go cold shooting wise in the 2nd half. I always felt that end is a little cursed.

Yet they do practice that end and many of us have witnessed it during open training sessions.

These days it's so bad, we naturally expect the team to fade in the 2nd half.


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KingJames
Last year
10:35 13 Feb 13

Reply #404150

re: 36ers first half, second half scoring disparity

Right on the money Statman with this

"Then as the game plays out and especially at half time the opposition are able to (make) some adjustments to counter what Adelaide are doing well. Then it just seems that Adelaides offence simply falls in a heap."

Ill add to that, that the Adelaide coaches then don't react to these adjustments or make adjustments themselves. Another indication of Clarke and Radford not up to standard.


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BJF
Last year
10:55 13 Feb 13

Reply #404153

re: 36ers first half, second half scoring disparity

Cadee is the 2nd best scorer in away games but 7th at home ;12 points vs 5

Isaac has highlighted a big differential in steals and therefore turnovers

Carelessness with the ball has costs us significantly in games, has killed momentum swings and on many occasions equated to easy transition buckets to the opposition team



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hoopie
Last year
12:20 13 Feb 13

Reply #404169

re: 36ers first half, second half scoring disparity

Isaac, I was going by the posts on the 'toxic arena', given that I don't live in Adelaide.

I think Statman and KingJames are more on the money.


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Quickie
Last year
12:27 13 Feb 13

Reply #404171

re: 36ers first half, second half scoring disparity

Interesting second half fadeouts ,wonder what they do at half time ,talk about the second half or sign autographs on balls or have a ten minute nap and feel more tired.Its teamwork and the way they pass the ball,there are alot of steals against sixers and other teams know the sixers teamwork !!!!!Clarke has same teamwork for years.


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Anonymous
Last year
12:31 13 Feb 13

Reply #404175

re: 36ers first half, second half scoring disparity

hoopie like many things it is the people with the loudest voices that will be heard.
% on here posting vitrol are a minority in general IMO

majority of spectators are disappointed that they aren't winning to me it isn't about winning titles it is about making it an enjoyable game and winning majority of times. I can take the losses I can't fathom the second half fade outs it is like a different team comes out after half time.

Mind set, we played that well we can do it again?

Mind set, that we are in front we must protect the lead?

Coach runs more of his starters in the second half and fatigue sets in?

and whoever said it there are some non astute basketball brains in that team or appear to be, without sitting and talking to the players and finding out, it would appear one or two lack the ability to think for themselves. mindless repetition is fine when it works but when the defence changes to curb your play you need players and coaches who can adapt and I haven't seen much adapation from any of the floor or sidelines this season.

but those with the vitrol and loud voices will think they speak for the many.


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Flinders80
Last year
12:39 13 Feb 13

Reply #404176

re: 36ers first half, second half scoring disparity

Would be interesting to see the numbers across all teams and ladder position. I don't have time now but if someone has and can post please do. If not might try it out tonight.


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Anonymous
Last year
12:51 13 Feb 13

Reply #404179

re: 36ers first half, second half scoring disparity

All this talk about us being a better team on the road.

Does anyone have our road record on a season by season basis for the last three years versus our home record?


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Anonymous
Last year
13:00 13 Feb 13

Reply #404182

re: 36ers first half, second half scoring disparity

The 36ers have only won 2 games on the road this season as opposed to 4 wins at home.

Statman, I think you're on the money here.


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VC fan
Last year
13:01 13 Feb 13

Reply #404183

re: 36ers first half, second half scoring disparity

It's alright guys, I know what's going on here, it's know as the 'cheerleader effect'.

The only reason the Sixers have a good first half at home is because they are in front of the Adelaide cheerleaders, in the second half there is no one to impress up that end and so the scoring drops off.

"Sure." You'll say, "but what about the away games?"

Well, when playing away, the home team starts going towards their bench end (and hence where their cheerleaders sit also), then by the second half the Adelaide boys perk up as they get to 'take it to the rack' with the opposing team's cheerleaders getting a front seat view.

Pretty simple really.


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hoopie
Last year
13:11 13 Feb 13

Reply #404187

re: 36ers first half, second half scoring disparity

VC Fan - priceless !!


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SMA
Last year
13:46 13 Feb 13

Reply #404193

re: 36ers first half, second half scoring disparity

Simplifying the system is certainly a key factor.

Marty is cut from the AIS cloth. First as an athlete then as coach. This style with regimented execution limits natural basketball flow. Example may be CJ's exit for Christopherson?

Moulding players to play a style in the AIS environment doesn't translate to getting a team to buy in and execute his scheme.


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Jack Toft
Last year
14:00 13 Feb 13

Reply #404194

re: 36ers first half, second half scoring disparity

well done VC fan.


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Pure Silk
Last year
17:05 13 Feb 13

Reply #404233

re: 36ers first half, second half scoring disparity

I think its a mental thing now and if you watch our D you will see it opens up big time with mainly our 2 bigs having lapses in concentration. It is not just this year but we havent had a player who wants the ball in his hands and makes the shots when required as we had in our glory years so that makes a huge difference as opposition teams know that any margin can be reduced against us.


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Ballin Fan
Last year
18:55 13 Feb 13

Reply #404255

re: 36ers first half, second half scoring disparity

I fully agree with Statman,
and that supports the road disparity.

When away, the opposition are already ahead by more, and don't need to make as many adjustments.

Its that simple.
But unfortunately our half court sets are not.
When the opposition want to pressure up, there are no back door "honesty" options, and that surrenders easy turnovers or at the very least shots under pressure.

When Massingale "winged it" and went back door because his man was going for steals...
as you do when you are chasing from behind....
well we all know what happened to him now.


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Starks
Last year
20:31 13 Feb 13

Reply #404267

re: 36ers first half, second half scoring disparity

Cheerleaders. Of course! It is so obvious when you think about it.
I think it has got to the point where the team is waiting for things to go wrong after half time. Self fulfilling prophecy. The times when they look good, they are playing loose - on instinct. I keep thinking back to when CJ exploded for all those points against Perth. He was getting them on sneaky back door cuts - something he was not supposed to do in Clarkes system. CJ struck me as a guy who knew where to go to score. So, "Go stand in the corner CJ", was a little dumb.


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Anonymous
Last year
06:38 14 Feb 13

Reply #404312

re: 36ers first half, second half scoring disparity

The club is mentally weak. There is no leadership at all. I'm sick of seeing on twitter and Facebook 'oh well we tried tonight,unlucky,next week' no be like any other sporting team with some talent and win the game. I no money is an issue but I can't think of a club that would allow so much losing,so lack of passion and a coach that is not getting the best out of his players.


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Isaac
Last year
09:08 14 Feb 13

Reply #404331

re: 36ers first half, second half scoring disparity

That's what you do on social media after a loss. Other clubs do it. It's not the issue (though the social media stuff is pretty amateur). The issue as you know is the losing itself. Complaining about the social media posts after losses is like complaining about DJ tugging at his shorts - irrelevant.


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Loco
Last year
13:11 14 Feb 13

Reply #404369

re: 36ers first half, second half scoring disparity

And suddenly I can't stand Ballinjerk.


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