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PlaymakerMo
Last year

#30855

Jesse Wagstaff Should be Flagged by NBL

Over the course of his career Jesse Wagstaff has become synonymous with: grappling, hooking, throwing elbows, blatant moving screens, flops, delaying the game, and generally anything he can get away with to provoke the opposition and fool the referees.

The worst part isn't that he is a repeat-instigator of these actions, but that it's one of the league's worst kept secrets and nothing is done about it.

The referees supposedly look over the game tape as a form of review after matches: surely it should be plain to see that Jesse being tangled up with an opposition player 20x in a single game isn't coincidence... yet he is given the benefit of the doubt when it comes to foul calls and technicals.

Coincidences don't just occur over, and over, and over, and over again. This happens every week!

Wagstaff and players like him should be flagged after sufficiently defining their playing style around parlour tricks that are a detriment to the game.

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Anonymous
Last year
16:47 17 Feb 13

Reply #405107

re: Jesse Wagstaff Should be Flagged by NBL

^ 1


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alexkrad
Last year
16:50 17 Feb 13

Reply #405108

re: Jesse Wagstaff Should be Flagged by NBL

Russel Hinder


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KingJames
Last year
16:58 17 Feb 13

Reply #405111

re: Jesse Wagstaff Should be Flagged by NBL

Agreed


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sitiveni
Last year
17:04 17 Feb 13

Reply #405113

re: Jesse Wagstaff Should be Flagged by NBL

Agreed. Hinder, madgen are guys that antagonise and always involved in rubbish, i agree the NBL should start penalising these guys.


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Beantown
Last year
17:12 17 Feb 13

Reply #405117

re: Jesse Wagstaff Should be Flagged by NBL

What can you expect really - Wagstaff has learnt from the master in Redhage! The Cats in general have been getting away with some of the ugliest basketball I've seen in the past few years.

Would love to see the NBL clean things up and reward skill level more than they do now. Unfortunately, this country is footy mad though and so the NBL has succumbed to the idea that basketball should be played like football if we want to bring in the crowds!


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ChuckBerry
Last year
17:17 17 Feb 13

Reply #405119

re: Jesse Wagstaff Should be Flagged by NBL

You forgot to mention Redhage but I suppose that's already been done to death on these boards.

Even if you've got a point, and you probably do, you know Cats supporters are just going to dismiss you as hatin' or label you a hater right?

That tangle up at the baseline where Ballinger? got T'd up was questionable. Ref had his whistle loaded, cocked and ready to blaaoow!

I think you're right, the refs need to review a couple of those questionable incidences. When you look at the game in whole, you'll probably find there were offenders on both sides though.

With Perth it's love and hate and no in between. If you're a supporter you absolutely love them and if not you hate their ufkin guts! Unfortunately I fall in this latter group. It's like the Lakers, love Kobe but can't stand this team. Just sayin...




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Anonymous
Last year
17:29 17 Feb 13

Reply #405122

re: Jesse Wagstaff Should be Flagged by NBL

What exactly is it you want the NBL to do????? If you dont think the officials are aware of "persons of interest" you're mistaken, but each and every game and player must be taken on its/their merrits. We dont want officials coming into a game looking to target or pick on individual players, an offense has to be carried out before you can penalise.


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Tiga
Last year
17:32 17 Feb 13

Reply #405124

re: Jesse Wagstaff Should be Flagged by NBL

VERY antagonistic behaviour from Mills on that Tech on Walker, probably needs to be cautioned on his theatrics. He's a repeat offender with that in your face style and hair trigger for techs.


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POP
Last year
17:38 17 Feb 13

Reply #405128

re: Jesse Wagstaff Should be Flagged by NBL

Not sure about the wisdom of singling out individuals, but would be most pleased to see a requirement for officials to call the game in line with the rules, including the one that says they have a duty to ensure the game is played in line with the spirit of the game and the rules.

This would address the issues raised - for all players. It would also put defence and offence on a more even footing, opening the way for the players to use, and the fans to enjoy, attacking and defensive skills.

At the moment our sport seems to be more about brute strength/thuggery than skills, and only a change in the way officials call the game will change that.

Of course such a change would mean at least some coaches would have to adjust their approaches to the game too.


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Camel 31
Last year
18:04 17 Feb 13

Reply #405133

re: Jesse Wagstaff Should be Flagged by NBL

Don't perth follow closely , but there was a game on TV today , v Tigers , and that's exactly what he did.


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Guns
Last year
18:31 17 Feb 13

Reply #405139

re: Jesse Wagstaff Should be Flagged by NBL

Maybe if Adelaide players had some heart like Wagstaff they might actually get some wins!


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PlaymakerMo
Last year
18:48 17 Feb 13

Reply #405140

re: Jesse Wagstaff Should be Flagged by NBL

NBL referees already do single out individuals, just not for infringements the Wildcats glorify.

I've spoken with one NBL referee that is based in SA, and he says that the referees will be critical of certain aspects of a game based on reviews of players and team tendencies - much like the AFL. They also focus on player's individual tendencies e.g. hooking on post moves, pushing in the back on rebounds, lifting the pivot foot on a drive.

Of course the game should be called simply in line with the rules, but with 'referees interpretation' used as a scapegoat this is less of a realistic solution as one would hope.

Redhage is likely the most unorthodox player I've ever seen, and Wagstaff evidently studied under his tutelage. However, I would argue Wagstaff is more prolific with his cheap plays now than Redhage currently is. Today's MEL vs. PER game was a testament to that - I feel for Lucas Walker, who deserved the Tech, but so did Wagstaff.

When it comes to a 50/50 call and Wagstaff/Redhage etc are involved, who actually believes it's still a 50/50 call? Don't give them the benefit of the doubt is all I'm saying.


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CP3
Last year
18:48 17 Feb 13

Reply #405141

re: Jesse Wagstaff Should be Flagged by NBL

I'm a big fan of Wagstaff, IMO I like that he plays with a hard edge at all times on the court. To steal a line from Hawthorn FC, Wagstaff & the Wildcats play unsociable basketball & make no apologies for pushing the limits of the opposition, fans & umpires. Let's not forget that Wagstaff is a very talented player & can do a lot of positive things on the court as well, he is certainly no hack with a limited skill set. 6ers would sign him tomorrow if they could & finally bring some physicality & toughness to an inept 6ers front court.


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NBL KINGS
Last year
19:10 17 Feb 13

Reply #405143

re: Jesse Wagstaff Should be Flagged by NBL

^^^^^^^^^^ what has ben madgen done other than throw that chair?
Yes he threw a chair ONCE, but what else all season? Honestly he's a great player and deffintly not one that should be considered to be one of the agonizeing guys.


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Anonymous
Last year
19:16 17 Feb 13

Reply #405145

re: Jesse Wagstaff Should be Flagged by NBL

Im sick of these posts from sore losers in the east. I saw that game and there were many times the 50/50 referees decision went against the wildcats players too. Both sides had to deal with poor decisions against them. The only difference is the melbourne tigers players are arrogant, demonstrative and constantly complain and argue with the officials when a call doesn't go their way. Even anstey sets a poor example in this area as a head coach so of course the officials will be quick to call something against them when it may be a no call situation. Just get on with it and you'll soon realise these undisciplined tech fouls you give away for back chatting and acting like tools can be the difference between winning and losing. Don't know how any tigers supporters could be proud of their players when watching them act the way they do on the court.


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Camel 31
Last year
19:33 17 Feb 13

Reply #405148

re: Jesse Wagstaff Should be Flagged by NBL

I'm not a wise man from the east , I'm kinda in the middle , ADL . I got the impression of you getting the better deal , today .


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Smith
Last year
19:38 17 Feb 13

Reply #405149

re: Jesse Wagstaff Should be Flagged by NBL

It makes me so mad when
Perth Score.
Rebounder goes to take ball out of court.
Wagstaff moves into the path and stands there before the player can even get out of court


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Bake
Last year
19:52 17 Feb 13

Reply #405152

re: Jesse Wagstaff Should be Flagged by NBL

Camel31, all teams are in the east from Perth. There isn't so much as a chip on their shoulders, more like a bag of spuds.

As for the supposed heart that Wagstaff/Redhage et al display, it has been refereed out of some teams. The Wildcats, Breakers and Melbourne are allowed to set moving screens, fend off and push players out of position while other teams are called for the slightest contact. This started with Brian Gorgian coached teams and will eventually see the demise of what was a once great sporting spectacle.


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The Situation
Last year
20:39 17 Feb 13

Reply #405160

re: Jesse Wagstaff Should be Flagged by NBL

Ok, so the refs look at Wagstaff niggling....then what? Another player breaks a rule (like Walkers idiotic tech today) and they are meant to ignore that because Wagstaff "instigated" it? What a load of shit. The simple solution is to stop biting at the obvious attempts to niggle. They are clearly working - are all non-perth players that dumb?


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The Situation
Last year
20:43 17 Feb 13

Reply #405162

re: Jesse Wagstaff Should be Flagged by NBL

Provocation is never a reason for anyone else to break a rule. It's pretty simple.


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PeterJohn
Last year
20:44 17 Feb 13

Reply #405163

re: Jesse Wagstaff Should be Flagged by NBL

Beantown & Isaac +1 each

Funnily enough, just the other day I was thinking that NBL has turned into this curious version of basketball that I think of as Aussie Rules Basketball. We used to laugh at the footballers who would come out to social league games and get called for fouls time after time and not understand why. They would fit right into NBL today.


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Jess
Last year
21:48 17 Feb 13

Reply #405176

re: Jesse Wagstaff Should be Flagged by NBL

Wagstaff was physical under the basket v Walker but the fact of the matter is no tech foul would be called if Walker had kept his cool.

The reason Wagstaff does it is because he always gets a reaction from the opposition player. Case in point, Ervin on Friday night. If the opposition stop reacting to it, it will stop happening. there was no need for walker to start swearing and throwing his arms around. What did he expect to happen with the ref right there next to him?

The Wildcats have a very physical style of play. Opposition players need to learn to deal with that better instead of having a cry everytime they get a bit of attention.

Im not a cats fan but i think all this whinging about physicality is silly, especially when if the players would stop reacting the tech fouls would stop happening and maybe the perps would get pulled up on it more!

The fact of the matter is, if the league was actually concerned with the actions of players like Wagstaff, they would be doing something about it.


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Anonymous
Last year
22:00 17 Feb 13

Reply #405182

re: Jesse Wagstaff Should be Flagged by NBL

Bottom line...Walker was undisciplined! Simple


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PlaymakerMo
Last year
23:09 17 Feb 13

Reply #405191

re: Jesse Wagstaff Should be Flagged by NBL

Love it how anyone with an opposing view assumes I'm: having a whinge about Perth in general, a Melbourne Tigers fan, unappreciative of physicality in basketball, basing my argument entirely on today's MEL vs. PER game etc.

Bottom line: if you actually find the pointless niggling entertaining and/or think it adds something to the quality of basketball, I hope your posting on this forum is the extent to which you influence basketball in Australia, and that you've been properly sterilized for good measure. Thankyou.


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J-dogg
Last year
23:10 17 Feb 13

Reply #405192

re: Jesse Wagstaff Should be Flagged by NBL

Goulding is a fake tough guy that's more worthy of a thread


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Anonymous
Last year
23:58 17 Feb 13

Reply #405198

re: Jesse Wagstaff Should be Flagged by NBL

Its not a matter of finding the niggling entertaining. When watching the game you dont even notice the niggling most of the time. Its the reaction that gets noticed by the referees and then of course the commentators will comment on the tv replays. Its not good for the game seeing the players overreacting and remonstrating to the referees like children. Deservedly they should get techs. The same goes for illegal tactics to gain an unfair advantage over the opposition. The officials need to call these also but like in other sports.. soccer, afl etc.. its impossible for them to see everything behind the play. So players have to be good enough deal with it. It appears that some players are too mentally weak to cope with it so they expect the official to look after them


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Anonymous
Last year
00:08 18 Feb 13

Reply #405200

re: Jesse Wagstaff Should be Flagged by NBL

Does anyone not remember the niggle of a trash talking Lanard Copeland or the mega-flopping of an Andrew Gaze?? And please... Shane "the hammer" Heal was one of the biggest nigglers for getting under other players skin. Vlahov used to bump and grind opposition as did the Dalton brothers! But I suppose back in those days we called it passion. FFS- the game needs some kind of passion in it. So what... Wagstaff niggles, Goulding is a whining tosser, Redhage flops just as the great man Gaze did! It's a part of the game, it has been since I have watched it in the 80s. Some people need to accept it and get over it, rather than it be a lets pick on a team that just won a game!


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Anonymous
Last year
00:16 18 Feb 13

Reply #405201

re: Jesse Wagstaff Should be Flagged by NBL

^^^ I agree!


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Cats82
Last year
01:08 18 Feb 13

Reply #405203

re: Jesse Wagstaff Should be Flagged by NBL

Bla bla bla! Every time the cats win sumthing has to be said! Win by 28 on friday! A post up about bias calls in perth, catch fire against the tigers and its wagstaff fault the tigers lost the game! Come on every one! U dont like us fair enuf but dont go saying shit like redhage and wagstaff are this and that! Both a great players and they play! Its the refs job to control the game! And that knob saying the league wasnt strong wen the cats won that yr, wat u on? More like this yr, cats and breakers are just having traing runs for 6 month until they go 4 it in the gf! Dont u follow the crocs?


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Anonymous
Last year
01:31 18 Feb 13

Reply #405204

re: Jesse Wagstaff Should be Flagged by NBL

@ChuckBerry
"Even if you've got a point, and you probably do, you know Cats supporters are just going to dismiss you as hatin' or label you a hater right?"

But that's all they are, Chuck, that's all they are...


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Cats82
Last year
02:02 18 Feb 13

Reply #405208

re: Jesse Wagstaff Should be Flagged by NBL

The cats are like the pies in the afl!! Got the best supporters most passionet at that and every one hates them but they wish they had a team like that to support and be proud! Just a laugh on here, like bitches any excuse will do! Every other team bar nz are a joke! Dont like us dont watch us! And dont bitch about us!


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Proud
Last year
03:18 18 Feb 13

Reply #405209

re: Jesse Wagstaff Should be Flagged by NBL

Wagstaff is my favourite player but yes he can and normally gets away with murder... Is there anything wrong with that?

There are only 3 people that can decide that and an early off the ball foul would make him think twice about the niggle.

He is too great a player to need to do this but he tries getting the ball back and does so his methods work.

Fouls should be called but its too late in the season to be changing drastically but refs should call whenever they see fouls. Enough said


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X
Last year
04:17 18 Feb 13

Reply #405212

re: Jesse Wagstaff Should be Flagged by NBL

"Wagstaff is my favourite player but yes he can and normally gets away with murder... Is there anything wrong with that?"

Yes.

Beantown covered it - he's been learning from the best (worst). Wagstaff is still not quite as prolific a flopper as the master but he's definitely caught up with him for the off-ball bullshit.


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The Situation
Last year
08:50 18 Feb 13

Reply #405222

re: Jesse Wagstaff Should be Flagged by NBL

Yeah, but what's wrong with it, apart from it annoying the shit out of you?

What I can never work out is that why these nigglers get singled out so much, yet Hinder, in a typical act of terrible sportsmanship, ran down the court the other night and swung two elbows (got called for the second) yet no one bats an eyelid? No Wildcat goes out to try and injure opponents- Hinder does, yet he barely cracks a mention.


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Howto
Last year
09:04 18 Feb 13

Reply #405228

re: Jesse Wagstaff Should be Flagged by NBL

Lucas Walker and Seth Scott are both undisciplined and always take the bait like big dumb bass. The lack of discipline costs games and it cost Melbourne yesterday - simple.


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Camel 31
Last year
09:37 18 Feb 13

Reply #405234

re: Jesse Wagstaff Should be Flagged by NBL

I haven't followed his career . Ballinger and Carter played in ADL , so I watched. Wagstaff elbowed Ballinger outta court when the ball was dead , that's why Walker reacted. Later , Ballinger fouled Wagstaff hard and Carter came in.
Walker and Ballinger called . Wagstaff and Carter not called. Maybe just wait and foul him hard.
The NBL is in trouble again , being sued by the tree blind mice . The reason for the action is the impersonation by NBL refs of the three blind mice being too close to them .


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The Situation
Last year
10:12 18 Feb 13

Reply #405252

re: Jesse Wagstaff Should be Flagged by NBL

Wagstaff and Walker were tangled up, neither player was taking a backwards step, but neither one was doing anything more untowards than the other. The refs stepped in and told them to stop and broke them up, Walker decided to yell "f*ck off" in Wagstaff's direction straight away. Instant T.

On Friday night, Wagstaff and Ervin got tangled while going for a rebound. The ball went through the net, they came untangled and Wagstaff said something to Ervin. A timeout a was called, both players walking to their huddles, but Ervin decides to run up and have chest sex with Wagstaff. USF.

You guys can focus on the Wagstaff side of things but the issue is that there are some players in the league who are dumb enough to get suckered in. If they don't respond, then Wagstaff just becomes a niggler who is doing the wrong thing by his team mates instead of playing ball.


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Anonymous
Last year
10:21 18 Feb 13

Reply #405254

re: Jesse Wagstaff Should be Flagged by NBL

It's not even really reacting, Walker's moment of idiocy was after they had been separated, right in front of the ref. Ervin's moment of idiocy again came after they had been separated, after the whistle, when Wagstaff had already put some distance between them.

These are more escalations than reactions, from moron players afraid to look "weak", as if costing your teams two points and possession because of your precious ego is not far weaker than settling down.


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Statman
Last year
10:26 18 Feb 13

Reply #405255

re: Jesse Wagstaff Should be Flagged by NBL

Ill go into bat for Carter on this one Camel31 as I too thought he deliberately cannoned into Ballinger after a hard foul. But after watching the replay it was clear he had already left the ground in anticipating a rebound/put back and landed unintentionally on Ballinger. He then immediately grabbed Ballinger in an appologetic manner and Balls looked to accept it was accidental, nothing in that one at all IMO.


My gripe with Wagstaff is that he constantly looks to push the boundaries of sportsmanship and doesnt play the game in the right spirit. Sure its legal but the little things like someone above mentioned where he will walk into someones path and block them when they are trying to retrieve the ball after a Cats score are unnecesary and detract from the spectacle of the game. IMO its ugly and he has the talent to get the job done without needing to resort to using such tactics. And its not just Wagstaff either - he is just in the gun at the moment as I watched 2 of his games over the weekend. Hinder and Wortho are other prime examples of players who just need to stop the crap and just play the game


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Beantown
Last year
11:28 18 Feb 13

Reply #405268

re: Jesse Wagstaff Should be Flagged by NBL

Statman, I agree about Wagstaff, he has the talent. I just wish he'd cut out all the bullshit and play basktball.

It really depresses me that the best Australian team regularly shoots about 30-35% from the field, but keeps winning because all their opponents get dragged into the same grind it out style. In the end its brick city from both teams because noone can get their legs under them to make a shot!


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ITK
Last year
11:55 18 Feb 13

Reply #405273

re: Jesse Wagstaff Should be Flagged by NBL

I think this style of game is killing the NBL.
The constant fouling, pushing and flopping is just destroying the spectacle.
We have low scoring games, reduced dunks hacking all over the court, fans don't want to watch that
Fans want dunks, ali’s, fast breaks and high scoring games, fans want to be entertained and not watching dead balls for half the game.
NBL learn from the NBA and Europe


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PlaymakerMo
Last year
12:29 18 Feb 13

Reply #405284

re: Jesse Wagstaff Should be Flagged by NBL

@The Situation - simple answer regarding Hinder: I didn't see the play you mentioned, and I haven't seen a great deal of Hinder at all by not living in Townsville, not to mention his injury concerns have kept him off the court a fair while (e.g. last season). I have, however, seen plenty of Wagstaff and the Wildcats...

I don't think too many people actually read the OP:

"The worst part isn't that he is a repeat-instigator of these actions, but that it's one of the league's worst kept secrets and nothing is done about it."

Of course Wagstaff, Redhage etc should continue doing this if they can get away with it; of course players that react to provocation in an extreme manner should be tech'd; of course Wagstaff has talent, but he wouldn't play an unorthodox style of game if it were unnecessarily.

The onus is on the league and its officials to cut the bullshit actions from these players out of the game. That was my point before critics started going off on tangents.


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The Situation
Last year
12:54 18 Feb 13

Reply #405291

re: Jesse Wagstaff Should be Flagged by NBL

What does the league do to stamp it out then? Being annoying, or pushing the rules to the limit (by its very definition) is not against the rules. The only thing the league can do is make sure that Wagstaff doesn't draw fouls from guys when he instigates the grappling and tangling, and that is actually what happens.

The problem that you have is that players get sucked in, react and give up USF/techs, and somehow you want the league to step in because you're just as pissed off as the players. Its not possible to ask them to police what you're asking for.

As I said earlier, provocation is never a defence for breaking the rules yourself.


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Camel 31
Last year
13:04 18 Feb 13

Reply #405294

re: Jesse Wagstaff Should be Flagged by NBL

'Remember reading comprehension at primary school.'
I think Isaac Forman said that.
'The situation has ended sad.' I said that .


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The Situation
Last year
13:16 18 Feb 13

Reply #405295

re: Jesse Wagstaff Should be Flagged by NBL

Excellent contribution , Camel 31


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Anonymous
Last year
13:17 18 Feb 13

Reply #405296

re: Jesse Wagstaff Should be Flagged by NBL

Wildcats need to do what ever it takes, they can't shoot the ball so they need to get it done in other ways.


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clarky
Last year
14:08 18 Feb 13

Reply #405311

re: Jesse Wagstaff Should be Flagged by NBL

In the Walker/Wagstaff example, Wagstaff was "tangled" up with Ballinger (who in turn was pushed against Walker) and yet he made no effort to remove himself from the situation.
Walker then clearly said "get the f*** off me" just after the ref had intervened which earnt him a tech.

Would issuing a double technical for Wagstaff/Walker have made this less of an issue to the fans?

Would a double technical have impacted on Wagstaff's mentality in the game (ie: getting into his head about the niggling tactics)?

I know people want to see less fouls called in the games, and a more free flowing style, but IMO the refs need to start using the whistle more to remove the tactics and play style of some teams from the competition. Sure it will mean a worse looking product in the short term (more fouls called, slower games, lower scoring etc.), but at the end of the day if the league can remove all the bumping/holding/pulling/pushing/hand-checking of teams like the Wildcats, wouldn't the long term benefit to the league be much greater?


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The Situation
Last year
14:16 18 Feb 13

Reply #405314

re: Jesse Wagstaff Should be Flagged by NBL

I think in the first instance, blowing the whistle and telling the guys to stop is the right thing to do. If it happens again, a double foul. If it continues, then a double tech but I think option 1 will stop most instances of tangling etc, providing both parties maintain their cool.

But overall, yes, if the refs start calling tighter games then its up to the players to adjust.


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X
Last year
16:02 18 Feb 13

Reply #405332

re: Jesse Wagstaff Should be Flagged by NBL

"No Wildcat goes out to try and injure opponents- Hinder does, yet he barely cracks a mention."

Are you kidding me? 4-5 years ago we would see a thread about Hinder's dirty bullshit almost every week. I used to hate the bloke. More recently though he has seemed to clean up his act significantly with maturity. Still not perfect evidently.


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Mystro
Last year
18:51 18 Feb 13

Reply #405362

re: Jesse Wagstaff Should be Flagged by NBL

the Tigers are undisciplined, plain and simple.

Lucas Walker is a hothead and Seth Scott has also proven to be a firecracker when baited. Goulding is just young and full of bravado.



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Jason
Last year
12:33 20 Feb 13

Reply #405651

re: Jesse Wagstaff Should be Flagged by NBL

Wow has this thread gone off topic - completely agree with the original post.


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