Jason Westcott
Years ago

Bendigo for a new NBL team

Bendigo has always been a powerhouse in the Mens and don't get me started on the womens who already have a WNBL team (who just repeated). Place seems to buzzin for SEABL standards and mens/womens always get major sponsors on board so why isn't it being considered as part of the future expansions?

Topic #33923 | Report this topic


Melbourne Boy  
Years ago

Where does the 1-2 million dollars per year come from to pay people full time?

Reply #461914 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

One would imagine the same methodology and sponsorship of a community based team will come from that others potential entrants should be using.

Reply #461919 | Report this post


Melbourne Boy  
Years ago

Only Bendigo has 80k population

Reply #461928 | Report this post


JW  
Years ago

Bendigo has a population closer to 110,000. And you will find that Bendigo gets a lot of support from other surrounding rural hubs like Castlemaine, Echuca, Shepparton etc.

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Young Gun  
Years ago

I was blown away when I moved to Victoria & drove up for a game in Bendigo.. it was better than many of the NBL games I've been to & their team & coaching staff all had good bball pedigrees.

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Bear  
Years ago

I have posted before that I believe, of all the potential future NBL locations, Bendigo will be one in about 5 years.

That is just my opinion, but is based on some facts which support the possibility.

The issue I see for the NBL's expansion is also the cost (initial and ongoing)!

For the NBL to grow, I believe it either needs to change its model slightly, to accomodate teams under a more workable budget by reducing costs, at the same time introducing a top fed fincnial structure similar to that of the AFL and other major leagues.

Conversely, keep pushing the barrow and only allow the teams with huge financial security, big sponsors and an already solid business model to enter the NBL.

The problem is that the second option is not really working, is it.....?

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Bendigo is the heartland of regional Victoria and a perfect location for the third NBL club from Vic.
The Geelong team gets thrown around as the obvious team for regional Victoria but it is just not a good opportunity with the supercats segregating basketball in the region over the last 5 years. Ballarat is an option but they have done themselves no favours with their management and performance in recent years.
Bendigo is such a great developer of basketball and the region obviously supports the game. They already have proven their ability to manage a national league team in the WNBL with huge success.
The NBL would have already called Bendigo on this.

Reply #461984 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

^Anon, please explain how the Geelong Supercats have segregated basketball in the region? Seems a flippant remark perhaps based on bias, where are your facts?

Reply #461987 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Some perspective: Bendigo financially struggled to field a WNBL team, and has for a few years despite their success. The WNBL is a very "cheap" league to participate in.

The Bendigo bombers football team ran out of money too.

How will they find 2-3 million a year to field a NBL Team?

Second to that where's the TV audience going to come from? 110 thousand people isnt exactly going to spike the TV ratings.
The NBL needs large city based teams, Geelong would be an absolute minimum.

Reply #461988 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

^Anon, all due respect bud, however do you know how broad an audience WINTV has? It isn't just the local Bendigo'ites that need to be factored into a TV audience either, it is a national game at NBL level, that's the idea of it.

Should Bendigo men get into the NBL and become successful, their TV audience would be national.

Don't tell me only people from W.A. want to see Perth Wildcats play, when they are so good to watch, seriously you gotta open yer eyes and see the forest, not just the trees!

Reply #461993 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

The Bendigo Bombers was an awful awful Football team. They had some of the largest losing streaks ever. The Bendigo Mens basketball team has always been a powerhouse.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

No chance of happening at all. Despite Bendigo having the largest players budget in the SEABL, it's not even a drop in the ocean compared to what they would need to be viable in NBL.

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Tiger Watcher  
Years ago

Doesn't make any sense to have a team in Bendigo......

TV, Crowds/Venue, Corporate Support etc

The league needs to focus on the major TV markets to expand as it is the only way forward for the sport otherwise new revenue streams will be hard to attain and current revenue will struggle to increase to the league as a whole.

We need to take a look at AFL and take the wow look at the crowd support and look more at the $$$ when making decisions....(please note community support is important but deep pockets & $$$ are alot more important!)


Reply #462025 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Why couldn't a smartly spent SEABL budget win 2-4 home games a year in the NBL?

Americans are cheap and talented.

The best SEABL players from other teams wouldn't be expensive and there are talented players like Aaron Bruce, Daniel Dillon, etc that are out of the league.

Blackpool won 10 games in the Premier League a few years ago (population 142K).

Wollongong have a chance at playoffs with a low budget, I don't see why a program like Bendigo or Geelong couldn't cause a few teams problems at home, especially when shooting the 3 ball well.

Reply #462028 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Unless the league is going to prop up a geelong or Bendigo type for 10yrs in the way the afl props up their new teams... Then you must do a lot more than win 2 home games!!
A new team would need post a 50/50 record from yr 1 to remain relevant enough for interest from fans and sponsorship $

Reply #462030 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Yes a SEABL Budget could win 2 games in the NBL, but who wants to see a team go 2-26 for the season with 30 point blowouts most games.

EPL teams like Blackpool who make the top flight receive around $80mil from TV deals, that's why they can sign basically half a new team when promoted.
Green Bay only has 100k population, does all their money come from the town? NBL clubs get sweet FA from TV.

Woolongong's so called "budget team spends around $700k on players as opposed to other clubs spending $1mil, hardly a SEABL budget.

Reply #462032 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Oh, only $700k budget at the gong? That can't be far off Bendigo budget...

Reply #462036 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

But Bendigo could get some additional sponsorship and get an NBL team. So could Geelong.

Their current talent levels suggest they could compete and they'd win more than 2 games.

Reply #462037 | Report this post


Bear  
Years ago

While we are throwing around ideas, what about this one then...

What about a Victoria country NBL team, linked to both Geelong and Bendigo, playing home games at both venues and called the Southern Bushrangers or something like that?

Expand the NBL with another Melbourne team, sure, but accomodate the rest of the state with an NBL team supported by the two major country hubs, feb by their SEABL programs!

Like I said, just an idea....But maybe worth considering?

Reply #462039 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

What's their stadium like?
Fine for WNBL but it wouldn't be sufficient for NBL would it?

Other than that, I think its relative proximity to Melbourne makes it not too bad from a travel perspective. At least you're not changing planes to get there from most locations, unlike any team based in Tassie.

Population is a concern obviously. Seems a little on the low side.

Worth exploring though.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Id suggest $700k on players alone is close to twice the TOTAL SEABL budget(Men/Women including entry to league)of Bendigo program.!!

You'd need to find another million to cover Coaching and admin staff wages, entry and equalization costs of the league etc, flights accom etc.

Reply #462042 | Report this post


SEABL Watcher  
Years ago

$700K would be quite a bit more than double the total SEABL program cost I expect.

Reply #462047 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

If the NBL wants new teams they would need to come to the party to help them enter (with $$$ and or support).

Also, if they want new teams they may be better off looking at teams with existing fan support,infrastructure and juninor programs.

Bendigo made the 3k wnbl grand final minimum by bringing in stands.

I guess - would the SEABL teams prefer to compete for premierships every year in a good competition or compete to not win the wooden spoon year after year against the best.

Reply #462049 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Bendigo Braves have had a pretty solid lineup for a long time. T reckon they would hold their own in the NBL. Look at the talent they have have/had: Ivan McFarlin, Jazz Ferguson, Daniel Horton, Deilvez Yearby, Garlepp and good local talent too

Reply #462051 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

So, if we added the top 7 players from the Supercats to the top 7 from the Braves with a couple of decent development players to top up the numbers, how would the team stack up?

Pretty well I would imagine!

Reply #462054 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

so 4 imports?

Reply #462056 | Report this post


Tiger Watcher  
Years ago

need more than 6 players to compete in nbl

Reply #462058 | Report this post


HO  
Years ago

Seriously guys? Name a single Australian Supercat or Brave (uncontracted, not a guy like Garlepp that plays somewhere already) that would be anything other than a 9-11 player now on an NBL bench. Maybe Herbert, if his heart was in it.

Forget the imports, if they were good enough they'd be in the NBL now.

So now start your team.

Two imports, Herbert.... yep, now you are off recruiting seven other players.

And with that, you lose a lot of attractiveness of the SEABL, which is the the ability for your local talent to play at that level.

Reply #462059 | Report this post


Bear  
Years ago

Disagree HO, if this was a 5 year plan, that would give you plenty of time to develop a list. Maybe right now, with the players available the concept would seem a little short on talent, but where would the players for a new Melbourne franchise come from?

Or, the new Brisbane team, or a new team from N.Z...?

You may be trying to fit the current environment into a longer term play here mate, also the SEABL season and NBL season are conducted during different time frames, so I could see such a concept gaining favour.

Just needs to be seen in a positive light; Go the South (Country Victorian) Dragons!

Reply #462062 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

461987 - It might worth noting that the SuperCats could have had the support of three associations, but they panicked and aligned themselves with one (basketball Geelong). This created a divide in the city and spawned a competitor the BigV Stingray program; which took away from the fan base and subsequently the game night ticket sales.

Reply #462066 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Forget the NBL (wll don't, but I don't know or care about where the NBL team is from but either Geelong or Bendigo can probably do it) but what's with the name "BASKETBALL GEELONG"??

Is that the most self indulgent association name in the history of australian basketball?
1 association of 3 in a shared region calling themselves a name that is like a governing body name, that is just wrong How was that even allowed by Basketball Victoria, they would have had to have signed off on it?

It's like Dandenong calling themselves "BASKETBALL MELBOURNE"

Reply #462071 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

The divide between associations in Geelong sounds worse than Tassie.

Reply #462074 | Report this post


Bear  
Years ago

^Anons you will have to understand how far back the name goes, it was the only recognised basketball Association in Geelong way back in the day, before others came onto the scene and got their house in order.

I suspect you may be trolling...

Right now the region is thriving with more local kids able to play at various levels, I don't see anything but positive things coming from the three Associations in the Greater Geelong area, little brother in Surf Coast still has a long way to go perhaps.

Please do your research and you may be surprised as to what you will find... :]

Reply #462076 | Report this post


Jack Toft  
Years ago

I know this has been discussed before, but does the NBL need to have division system?

For example, the "premier League" consists of the current NBL teams, plus say 4 "associate" teams like Bendigo, Ballarat, Mt Gambier etc. An Associate team would be a team that has been in the premier league for 3 seasons or less in the last 5, or could be an current NBL team with a win rate less than say 20%.

The next division is the "reserves" for want of a better name consisting of 12 or so teams (a merging of the SEABL/CABL/QBL/WL/WASL etc)

At the end of the season, the bottom 2 premier league teams play the bottom 2 reserve league teams for a chance to go pro/rel. If the bottom teams have won over say 20%, then perhaps they have a chance to stay in the premier league unless the lower ranked team clean sweeps them in a best of 3.

You could then have a premier league team linked to one or two reserve league teams and feed players between them (with some guidelines so they don't get stacked etc)

Thoughts?

Reply #462077 | Report this post


HO  
Years ago

Bear, you might disagree, but you were obviously not reading what the anons above my post were saying.

#462066 - forgive me if this is completely wrong, but haven't the Supercats and the Geelong Association always been aligned? I though the original Supercats came from the Geelong association.

Reply #462079 | Report this post


JW  
Years ago

It takes more than the 2 imports to bring the Bendigo Braves back to Championships every year. They have a quality program over there with some developing local talent that has come through the huge grassroots system that Bendigo has.

Also there is not a vast difference between the quality in SEABL to NBL. The best SEABL teams can compete with the worst NBL teams.

Half the work has been done for the NBL in a team for Bendigo or you can start from scratch somewhere else..

Reply #462081 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

My thoughts on this? Get the league stable and sustainable with the 8 teams that currently exist first and foremost before looking at expansion.

Expanding an already unstable league is suicide.

When, and ONLY when you are in a position to include more teams get them from the largest most sustainable markets FIRST.

Reply #462082 | Report this post


HO  
Years ago

JW, we had a discussion here some time ago where we talked about large versus small associations etc. Bendigo do not have a "huge" grassroots network.

And the best SEABL teams cannot compete with NBL teams, especially when the NBL content in those SEABL teams go back to their NBL clubs.

There is a significant(and I have said before widening) gap between SEABL and NBL.

Reply #462084 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

'The best SEABL teams can compete with the worst NBL teams'
Nope, sorry. The gap between SEABL and NBL is still huge.

Reply #462085 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

HO, on what basis can you back your consistent claims that the gap between SEABL and the NBL is actually widening?

Id disagree with that if for no other reason than:

1)there's no measurement that can validate such a claims and

2) the progressive exodus of our best players overseas over the past 15 years has actually significantly weakened our NBL and NOT to the detriment of SEABL, so id say the gap is actually closing.

Reply #462086 | Report this post


HO  
Years ago

And my response is you also have no measure to establish that. I'll try and find the thread where it has been discussed before and give you a link... rather than rehash it all.

Reply #462087 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

HO, i've read it and it no more validates your position than my own.
Im still waiting for some kind of measurable KPI to validate your claim.

Reply #462089 | Report this post


Bear  
Years ago

Subjective arguements and opinions aside, @Jack Toft I have posted similar ideas also, probably more in line with divisions as well as conferences, to keep costs down and create rivalries.

Not something we will likely see in the near future, but worth discussion, that's what forums are about no....?

Thanks @HO, actually I did read them, hence my point that you and the anon may be trying to fit the current environment into what would no doubt be a longer term proposition.

I get that some of the conversation is about the here and now, mine was not entirely though, cheers...

Reply #462090 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

How does Bendigo not have a huge grassroots network? Last time I saw a few years ago it had over 1500 teams in its domestic comp alone. In the last 12 months it had 300 new juniors join and 60 new junior teams. It has one of the largest complexes with 7 fully functional courts which are packed all night every operating night of the week. There are 'junior braves' teams at every age level in at least 2 of the divisions which are coached and trained by SEABL players. Would just like to see how you measure the size and quality of grassroots?

Reply #462094 | Report this post


HO  
Years ago

Ok, so I don't need to find it. Cool. You read every one of them? There have been a few.

I don't think our NBL has been "significantly" weakened either. It might be more accurate to say that it is not as strong as it has the potential to be given home grown players not playing here.

You talk about a significantly weakened league, that is offset in my view by the reduction in Australia teams to seven. The best of the rest I argue have certainly maintained the standard.

Reply #462095 | Report this post


HO  
Years ago

#462094

With accurate data.

- The largest two basketball associations, and neither of them are called Bendigo, have something like 1000 teams, 1500 is nonsense. The next biggest to those two have around 800
- these associations are generally recognised to have around 10,000 players
- Bendigo registered less than 3000 in 2012, which if divided by 6 players per team, might give them 300 teams. Even allowing for the growth you claim, they would now have just over 3000 players.

That is not huge, by Melbourne standards that is a small to medium association. They do not have a huge grassroots network.

I am not being disrespectful to Bendigo. My view is that they are an excellent organisation and clearly the biggest in Country Victoria.

Reply #462096 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Plus the calibre of import is a step above what is running around in the SEABL currently.

Reply #462097 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

So are you saying the lineup of the Braves (2013- yet to see 2014) who had Ferguson, McFarlin, Garlepp would not compete with say the 2014 crocs?

Reply #462098 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

#462094

You'll need more than 7 courts functioning to be classed as a large association, many of the large metro ones run twice that.

Reply #462099 | Report this post


Bear  
Years ago

@anon, I believe that Bendigo Basketball is about to get more new courts built, not sure of the details but another 3-4 courts alone would bring then up to level with some of the biggest Associations in Melbourne.

HO, how accurate do you think the official figures quoted are? I wouldn't rely on official basketball records alone, certainly there are quite a few variables to consider.

Bendigo as an Association, for example, would have vastly more potential for growth than say Dandenong.

I qualify this in the belief that population growth, court expansion and competition from nearby Associations alone would seem to indicate this probability.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Sorry may be I am off on the teams quote like i said it was a few years ago i saw it. I will have to try and dig it up. But everything else i said is on point. The growth figures for the last year are on the BBA website.

Reply #462103 | Report this post


HO  
Years ago

How accurate? Dunno. Probably every association cheats on its numbers so they don't have to pay fees to their state body, but it ain't going to move Bendigo from 500 teams to 1500!

Of course Bendigo has more potential - massive fish in a little pond. Dandenong has basketball competitors on all sides, including the Southern Hemisphere's most up and coming association in Pakenham.

Reply #462104 | Report this post


Annon  
Years ago

Bendigo may have a good local base and a large budget but what happens when that runs out? Everything goes in cycles. Perhaps a Bendigo / Ballarat Team would be a better option. Gives two large regional bases with a some money and a passionate fan base. They could then represent the country vic area. Close proximity and near other places like Shepparton etc. where a lot of support comes from. I do know there is a fierce rivalry between the two BUT if it was to work the potentially there could be something very special.

I just think we are being a little narrow minded about one town. Melbourne as a city historically can't sustain two teams for a bevy of reasons - what hope does a 110K town have? so why not look for a country based team. Get the players to travel into schools and get it a community team. Get people involved and make it big.

Then the issue comes in where do they play? The 1000 seat Minerdome or the 2000+ portable second hand run down additional stand Bendigo Stadium? No, there needs to be a long thought out process before any decisions get made. The NBL is on a cliff. If we can build then it will prosper but if new teams fail then I'm afraid we will stay as a small and insignificant league.

In my humble opinion the NBL should look to Brisbane, Tasmania and other large regional areas first. Build it to ten teams and then take a gamble on something like this. Because admit it - a 110K town with a stadium miles behind the NBL and a history of financially struggling pro teams is a huge gamble. I'm all for a regional team but lets make sure that it's done right... Around 30 NBL franchises or teams are now non-existent. Lets not have that embarrassing number rise!

Reply #462107 | Report this post


Annon  
Years ago

City, not regional. My bad

Reply #462109 | Report this post


Jack Toft  
Years ago

@Bear, I do remember those discussions. I think the NBL being privately owned now might make a difference.

When you look at the successful leagues in any sport around the world, there are always clubs banging on the door trying to get into that league.

With the NBL, where are those expansion clubs going to come from? Option A is a new club. Built from the ground up like say a GWS. They need to garnish support from a population, knock on doors for sponsorship etc. Option B is a club taking the next step. Like a Port Adelaide moving from SANFL to AFL. There's an existing supporter base, sponsor base, volunteer base etc. They dominate their current league and might struggle for a bit in the new league. Option C is an amalgamation model. There are existing clubs (or an association) that creates a new team from the feeder clubs (e.g. The Crows)

Is 8 teams enough? What would be the ideal number? How many NZ teams do we need to keep it a true Australasian League?

Reply #462110 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Bear - not trolling just replying to your earlier post. You claimed that the person who posted the suggestion that the Supercats have segregated basketball in Geelong. You claimed the post was flippant and requested facts. I responded with a fact, you went off topic and talked about juniors.
For what it's worth, I agree the growth is excellent. Although, I wonder where you think the growth has come from. From afar in the main, it would seem it comes from Bellerine and Corio Bay.

HO – the Supercats have only in recent years been aligned to themselves to Basketball Geelong (Formally Geelong Armature Basketball Association). In the past, they were promoted and supported by the entire town.

I hope my research is acceptable!

Reply #462120 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Some years ago the Supercats had decided that they were not interested in returning to the NBL. Id that a current position, I don't know.

Reply #462128 | Report this post


koberulz  
Years ago

There was an article a year or two ago that said they wanted back in, but they'd need a better stadium first.

Given the new direction the NBL's gone with expansion, the stadium may no longer be an issue.

Reply #462129 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Smaller has to be better there needs to be crowd capacity maybe peaking at 5000 or so. Not 5000+ like the stupid NBL demanded in the old days. The Perths can have their bigger venues bit whats killing the Crocs and Hawks atm is playing in expensive entertainment centers

Reply #462136 | Report this post


bowtie  
Years ago

8 teams are not enough.
Wellington and Hobart in 2015? Hearing it a lot around Melbourne and Sydney sports people....not so for Brisbane's return next year.

Reply #462147 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Mihgt be quicker than everyone thinks

Reply #462150 | Report this post


bowtie  
Years ago

Actually I meant 2014-15 season with Brisbane maybe the next year.

Reply #462151 | Report this post


Bear  
Years ago

Thanks for the common sense and non conflicting post @Jack Toft, yes we can probably learn quite something from other successful leagues, even if from different sports.

Reply #462152 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Jacks talking rubbish
What is a new club? Another Brisbane side is. Thy haven't been in the NBL for ever and it will undoubtedly be an organisation with little to to with the last iteration.
Clearly another Kiwi side will be brand new.
Tassie hasn't been in the leauge for almost 20 years so surely they are a new side. W Sydney Canberra, another melb side too.
Unless there is a Kiwi side and maybe an NT side, everthing wont be new.
Amalgamation sure maye geelong and Ballart and Bendigo, never heard so much rubbish

Reply #462158 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

To think a bunch of SEABL guys could win games in NBL is misguided. The standard of NBL is very good, the drop off to SEABL is significant. The drop from SEABL to the various state leagues is also significant. It's a good 2nd league but it is clearly 2nd.

Reply #462161 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

While 8 clubs might not be enough or ideal expansion for the sake of expansion is dangerous.

There is zero point of forcing expansion of an already very unstable shaky competition.

Planning for the future is part of responsible management but so is ensuring the product you have is first and foremost viable and sustainable.

Reply #462170 | Report this post


paul  
Years ago

The league needs expansion to give it a better chance at making their current teams viable. It needs more product to sell and more areas to sell it in.

Reply #462171 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Paul, id debate there's no point adding more uncertainty and instability to an already unstable league. Unless the new teams can demonstrate beyond all doubt they have a water tight income stream and plan for at least the next 3 years there's no point adding them.

How many more here today gone tomorrow teams does the league need?

Reply #462172 | Report this post


HO  
Years ago

That is a current theory Paul. Have they produced anything to support that?

Reply #462173 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Braves would beat Crocs

Reply #462176 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

HO, i would argue that the Australian talent currently playing overseas is better than any of the current talent playing in the NBL which is a different scenario to 15 years ago where we were lucky to have only a few players OS leaving the majority of our best talent in the NBL.

While i understand your theory about shrinking the league to counter dilution it doesn't account for the top talent missing.

I still maintain the NBL is overall a "weaker" league now that it was 15 years ago and the reduction of size has in fact meant SEABL has maintained its standard or "closed the gap" some what due to lack of opportunities for the better SEABL talent.

Reply #462179 | Report this post


HO  
Years ago

And I would argue that the SEABL is weaker than it was 15 years ago, if only because, players from four of the NBL teams, Cairns, Townsville, Perth and NZ, rarely play "down" it it now.

This was the debate in the other thread, which others struggled to understand, which was the SEABL does not really serve the purpose that it is meant to, and therefore probably needs a radical rethink.

Reply #462181 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

HO, NZ doesn't count for starters, not sure many Perth/Townsville/Cairns players ever played SEABL anyway, so where's the dilution of SEABL taking place?
There is a clearly demonstrable dilution of the NBL talent pool to O/S over the past 15 years, where is the dilution of SEABL talent occurring and where are they playing?

Its not to the NBL, so where are they playing?

Reply #462182 | Report this post


HO  
Years ago

For a start, there were more NBL teams, two in Melbourne, two in Sydney.

And again, there is no demonstrable anything about the dilution of the NBL talent pool. I think we get a bit romantic about the depth of the NBL back then. It had superstars, some loaded teams, and good role players. I think its deeper now, and the game has changed, as we have seen. Some of those players would struggle with the way the game is played now.

Sure, we can substantiate that there are more Aussies overseas, but you can't substantiate that the NBL is worse as a result, just that it is not as good as it could be if all those were playing here.

Reply #462185 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

HO, surely you've just contradicted yourself saying:

"Sure, we can substantiate that there are more Aussies overseas, but you can't substantiate that the NBL is worse as a result, just that it is not as good as it could be if all those were playing here."

Isn't that effectively saying the NBL is diluted from what it could be but its not suffering from a being of a lower standard as a result???

Surely if your product has a reduced standard to what it could be it will suffer in some way including appeal?

Reply #462190 | Report this post


HO  
Years ago

No.

Saying something is not as good as it could be does not in any way imply that it is worse that what it previously was. It just means that its potential is better than what it currently is.

In other words, I could argue that the 2013/14 league is as good as the 1998/99 league.

However, I could further argue the 2013/14 would be better than 1998/99 if those net 10-12 players playing overseas were here in our league instead of there.

Of course, I could also argue that the talent playing OS now, particularly in the NBA, is better than anything we had playing in 1998/99 here, and that therefore there is no net negative impact on the league of talent dilution. (I wouldn't argue it, because I don't quite believe it, but it would be an interesting case to mount, particularly for the NBA guys).

Reply #462192 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Hmmmmm, HO i think even you yourself you're are starting to see you're argument is getting shaky. :-)

To the best of my knowledge the genetic disposition of Basketballers hasn't changed in the past 15 years, everything is relative, the best 15 years ago is relative to the best now, they maybe trained better now and doing more but so is everyone else, its all relative.

The vast majority of the top 15 Australian Basketballers were playing in the NBL 15 years ago, today they're not. Also as a consequence of the greater ability of local talent 15 years ago imports had to be that bit better then too.

That is talent drain or dilution, plain and simple.

Depth is a different topic, the majority of mins are shared by 6 or 7 players.

People want to watch the best athletes from their own country/state/club, removing those players diminishes 1) the standard of the competition and 2) the appeal of the league.

You cant really argue that from any position of strength.

Reply #462196 | Report this post


Bear  
Years ago

I would argue that we have probably not seen the level of talent in our junior ranks than what we are currently seeing.

The amount of players coming out of junior ranks to play overseas in the U.S. college system, or elsewhere around the world is perceived to be at its highest level for quite some time.

Banter or political discussion about which league is better or how the gaps are changing seem to be less important to me than forging an elite Australian competition to accommodate what I see as loads of potential talent coming through.

I realise there are many challenges in doing this, also that the new structure of the NBL and BA have changed our landscape somewhat; however the bigger picture is clearly in line with identifying the increase in the number of our elite or potential elite players and how do we accommodate them into playing here!

Reply #462197 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Bear, the talent was always there, as i said, nothing genetically has changed to Australians over the past 15 years.

The main thing i've seen happen over the past 15 years, and its a massive change, is the progressive push for our talent to go to College.

Its a big business that has evolved over that time but the talent was there, it just never got the opportunity to go to college or gain exposure in the US college system.

Reply #462199 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

In addition to being the best run league in Australia, SEABL does serve its purpose in re- NBL fringe players playing down.
There are players doing this every year! Last year -
T. Garlepp
Carter
Daly
Allen
Warbout
Odigie
Walker
Crosswell
McMillan
A. McDonald
Kenny
Page
Greer

Plus a stack of guys who need opportunity...


Reply #462200 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

The college system is largely responsible for the direct and indirect drain of our local talent away from the NBL.

NBA opportunities aside weather you see that as a good or bad thing is debatable.

But like it or not its been a big part of the demise of the NBL.

Reply #462202 | Report this post


HO  
Years ago

Anon, I will acknowledge the NBL standard debate is unprovable, but my argument is not shaky at all. My explanation to you was solid logic when you suggested I contradicted myself.

You are saying the NBL is weaker than it was.

You can't prove the NBL is weaker than it was simply by saying that we have more talent overseas than we used to - although it is a good premise.

I can't prove the NBL is as strong as it was because there are less teams now spread across two countries - although that is also a good premise.

I don't accept the NBL is weaker. I think the league has changed significantly. The game style is different etc. I think the NBL remains a very good basketball league, played in a very different way.

I will say this. 15 years ago we didn't have four players in the NBA. We had Longley, with a couple of short term contributions here and there from Anstey, Heal and Gaze. I could argue that our best is better now than then. It would have a reasonable rationale and lots of numbers if I could be bothered doing the work.

I don't think the SEABL is closing the gap on NBL, I think it is widening. There are very few SEABL players now who make the NBL grade (I can only think of Herbert and Petrie who genuinely stepped out of SEABL into NBL in the last 5-7 years other than old AIS players but that is what they were in the AIS for). And I think cases like Ben Allen genuinely show the gap.

Reply #462206 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

HO, you make good points.

Can i propose this: there is a huge chunk of talent now that is either bypassing SEABL and the NBL all together and going to college then where ever else in the world rather than returning to play here, either in the SEABL or NBL??

This didn't happen 15 years ago.

Reply #462207 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

I'm a fan of the College system but only if it returns players back into our system.

Baring the NBA i cant see the point of pushing kids to college if they disappear to some European league where it is only about money not a better standard, its completely counter productive to our own league.

We need to keep more of our talent here.

Reply #462208 | Report this post


paul  
Years ago

The only top-line players I can think of who have gone to college in the past few years and then not played NBL are Aleks Maric, Ryan Broekhoff, Matthew Dellavedova, Daniel Kickert, Aron Baynes and Brock Motum.

Patty Mills should also belongs in that list given his was a lock-out inpired stint, and I might have missed one or two but it's not many.

From memory the NBL averages somewhere around four new players from college each year, one goes to a major overseas league and the rest scrounge in lower competitions or leave the sport.

That's why we desperately need more NBL teams.

Reply #462209 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Paul, there are far more than that, just some more but by far not all of them: what about Ingles, Newley, Nielson, Anderson, Greenwood?

You could fill 3 more NBL Rosters with genuine Talent playing O/S.

Reply #462210 | Report this post


paul  
Years ago

Read my post again. I'm talking about guys who went to college and then went to another top-line league.

Reply #462211 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

#anon199 are you forgetting the Sudanese migrants and the American imports kids who have grown up in the past 15 years? The gene pool is a changin'!

Reply #462214 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Other than Herbert & Petrie...

Currently...
Goulding
Demos
Gruber
S.Bruce
Kenny
White
McMillan
Carter
Adnam
Burdon
Teys
Vanderjagt
Odigie
Page
McDonald
Redhage


Previously...
Dowdell
Joyce
O'Hea
Crosswell
Scoines
Lang
Williamson
Coenraad
Gibson
M.Knight


Using SEABL to improve for NBL...
Garlepp
Walker
Greer
Daly
Hill
Warbout
Allen
This year Creek and Doyle join the list


Oh, yeah and the list a mile long of AIS kids who benefit from SEABL...

Yep, serving no purpose.

Reply #462215 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

^^^^^^^^

SPOT ON.

Reply #462217 | Report this post


HO  
Years ago

Sorry. That list is simply full of holes. I have to go to work now so don't have the time to point them out.

So to start with, take the imports out. If the SEABL is a development ground for imports to make the NBL then we have our priorities all wrong.

A bunch of those guys played in other leagues before making NBL...

Using the SEABL to improve for NBL...? rose coloured glasses.

Reply #462222 | Report this post


HO  
Years ago

#462207

Agreed. And it is a shame we are not seeing more of those guys come back into a league like SEABL. It would ensure the SEABL was always improving.

The world has opened up. A kid that once went through the junior system and played SEABL here can now go to College and head back to SEABL or comparable league, or head to Europe if they have the right passport and play 3rd division in Sweden.

Reply #462224 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

HO, I hope your job doesn't involve looking on the bright side!

No matter what spin you want to put on it to drag the SEABL down (no idea why) all of these players and many more the were not on the list have benefited from SEABL.

Great league, helps players on way up, on way down and those who are better than your average player but not good enough for the NBL (especially with only 8 teams for opportunity)

Reply #462293 | Report this post


HO  
Years ago

Thanks. You need to read the other threads.

I am not down on the SEABL, I just think it is nostalgically overrated. It has been a very good league, but, and I am not the only one to voice this view on here, it is not as close to the standard of the NBL as it used to be, and that is a concern. The gap between the SEABL and NBL is too large now. This is not the AFL, where you have 800 players in the top tier and can therefore afford to carry numbers of developing players on your roster at the top level. Basketball needs a genuine second tier development league, fit for purpose.

I don't look at it through rose coloured glasses. I look at what it should be achieving as a development league and ask if it is doing that.

The whole move toward an under-pinning league was around ensuring that that was fixed up - shame in some respects that it did not progress.

Reply #462346 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

HO, then I guess that it's a matter of opinion then. I think the SEABL is doing a wonderful job on many fronts including providing a very good standard of basketball for the 2nd league.
Just the way I feel many are far to critical of the players in the current NBL and under rate their ability, I feel some do the same for the SEABL.
Yes there is a gap between NBL and SEABL and there should be! The NBL players are full time professionals while SEABL layers are part timers. If there is a growing gap between the two it's from two things. The fact that NBL players have now been full timers for a generation and secondly, the coaching and training of these players in between games is Better than ever.
SEABL is stronger than ever. If the gap to NBL is bigger than ever the that means the NBL us stronger than ever.
Maybe we remember the old NBL with rose colored glasses?

Reply #462351 | Report this post


Bear  
Years ago

I agree with anon's point that the arguement about the gap between SEABL and the NBL is quite subjective and difficult to substantiate with statistics or other meaningful methods.

I also agree that in many regards it appears both are doing a good job in providing an improving basketball environment for the players and us as spectaters.

But I see HO's point also, it would be nice to have a second tier basketball competition truly aligned with the NBL as a feeder to support the main competition by providing a recognised competence level which can satisfy the desires of our best coaches.

That's why forums are a good discussion point, we can agree to disagree but ideas do come forward that make for interesting reading...

Reply #462359 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

HO, you have long been someone who's made people justify their positions with facts and statistics, which is a logical, robust and sound way to defend or articulate a position, but you fail to observe the very same mantra yourself!!!

You can no more claim the gap between SEABL and the NBL is widening than we can claim it isn't.
There simply isn't the hard data to measure or support this.


As a side note it always makes me chuckle when people from smaller BigV associations claim to not only know so much about SEABL but rag on it....

Reply #462361 | Report this post


paul  
Years ago

Anon two above hits the nail on the head. It's not about the individuals in the NBL or SEABL as much as it is about the system.

NBL guys spend every week in a pro environment that only has room for 60 Aussies making it pretty cutthroat. Every day they get to develop their game at a high level.

SEABL guys train 2-3 times a week after work in a comp with 120 mostly second-tier Aussies further diluted by the fact a significant of quality players compete in other state leagues.

There are plenty of players in the SEABL and other second tier comps who could contribute in an expanded NBL if given the chance to work on their game full time, as guys like Jervis, Vanderjagt, Walker, Dillon, Herbert, White, Hire etc have shown in recent years.

Reply #462362 | Report this post


HO  
Years ago

#462361

Fair Call.

I acknowledged in this discussion, particularly around the NBL, that there are strong premises to support a view that the NBL is as good as it used to be and strong premises to say it is weaker than it used to be. I also acknowledged it is subjective.

I have a view, and have expressed it as a view, more so in other threads, that the gap between NBL and SEABL is larger than it used to be.

I have a different view (and it is a different discussion), which I think I can support very logically, that the SEABL is not setup to act
as the best possible development league it could be, and so is not fulfilling its purpose.

What shits me most, is the apologist mindset that says that because I express these views I am down on the SEABL or just negative. That is just irrational.

Its a well run, well orchestrated league. I have said that on numerous occasions. Just because someone criticizes or questions something, does not imply that the persons mindset is that it is crap.

Reply #462366 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

HO, your thoroughness and thoughtfulness in the way you express your opinions are appreciated and well regarded, i've no doubt we could debate this topic well past the end of a slab one night, but i doubt we'd get much closer to solving this mystery!!

I think people overstate or over emphasis their positions to try to make a point against white noise, that's a natural part of forums.

The reality may well be the truth lies somewhere between both perspectives.

Reply #462412 | Report this post




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