Melbourne Boy
Years ago

Vic Metro U18's winning every game by 50+

Are they that good or are the other teams of a lesser standard this year?

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Anonymous  
Years ago

They haven't come up against any challenging teams in their pool so the next rounds should be able to give you the answer

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Anonymous  
Years ago


Pro/rel needed :p

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Anonymous  
Years ago

It's a perfect storm. Vic Metro coach is Melb Tigers junior coaching director and most of the kids know the system he runs inside and out.

6 of the players are Melb Tigers juniors, with Karabatos (a 7th) a Tigers junior until top age U16's. (Jock Perry who is missing with injury is another Tigers junior). The other 3 kids are the Vic Metro bigs and from all accounts are really coachable. The learning curve to run the system and know where team mates are was small with most of the kids knowing how to execute. They know how to read and react to different defences in the system really well.

That said they aren't really tall with Jock Perry being injured so it would be interesting to see if they played NSW Metro with Humpries and Gal and have them zone all game.

Also, Vic Metro does have some really good talent with Tom Wilson a chance to be a great Guard/Wing if AFL doesn't take him, Dejan is a solid scoring PG and Abi is a smart and strong forward.

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Latrentis  
Years ago

9 point win over NSW Country, would be great if they played Vic Country in GF as they are playing well also.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

I've been really impressed by Abi. Doesn't force anything, and doesn't need his number called because he creates his own opportunities in broken play or off the glass. Not to say there aren't better players around, but he's good to watch.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

What club is Abi from ? I think he is at the COE now

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Yes he is and diamond valley

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Anonymous  
Years ago

NSW Country gave them a good run tonight but Tom Wilson's fantastic shooting was the difference in the end. Have a sneaky feeling these 2 will meet again in the decider.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Have a sneaky feeling NSW Metro or Vic Country may have a say in that!

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Anon  
Years ago

NSW METRO? Are you following the tournament -
surely you must mean NSW Country!

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Anonymous 310...just making it up as he goes along. NSW Metro?

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Anonymous  
Years ago

NSW Metro have been completely toothless. Disappointment of the tournament.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

470212...thanks for your post, i found it quite intereseting....the shuffle vs read and react offence is a discussion i have often had with friends regarding which is best suited for juniors. Going off your post, I presume that the tigers run the read and react through their whole junior program now?

Back in the day their NBL team won a number of flags with the old shuffle. I personally prefer read and react for juniors as it actually teaches kids how to actually play the game

Sorry to derail this thread, but the above post grabbed my attention. !

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Melbourne Boy  
Years ago

Tigers juniors still all run the shuffle

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Anonymous  
Years ago

May they mean nsw metro women, all the crowing they did, they don't have a lot to show for it

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Tigers still run shuffle as is majority of the Vic Metro plays. The difference between someone who has watched a coaching video of shuffle and teaches it likes witches hats standing around Vs someone who can explain how to react when it breaks down is the biggest difference in coaching.

Against shuffle, a lot of coaching try and double team the wings, play off the big man in the paint or deny the pass to the wings trying to stop the play OR play a zone. But when you have experienced players with the system they know when to backdoor cut on overplaying, circle the ball with dribble hand off's, slip on screens when the man is sagging or run special plays where the big man is first cutter or switching forwards/guards as shooters, etc, etc. The offence is still highly structured and not like the Kentucky Dribble Drive offence, but to execute it against changing defences requires the players to read what the defence is giving them. And having had 6-7 players run it for 5 or 6 years since they were 11 and 12 years old is very different to picking a team and teaching them a system for 3 months.

That said, the players in the team deserve to be there based on their ability not just because they know the system. This age group Tigers team has challenged Diamond Valley and Blackburn since U12's and has always made the VC finals because they are good players. Just helps when they are all on the same page and that the State Champs isn't an All Star weekend.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Shuffle is not read and react because the screening actions are always the same based on ball movement. Players can make reads coming off the screen, sure, but once they pass the ball the options are limited. True read and react gives players lots of options. They can cut/ds/cross screen/onball/postup from a pass. Dont fall urselves vic met coaches. Ur robot development doesnt help anyone but urselves and ur egos.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Still got to react to the screening action and read how the defender plays you...

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Anonymous  
Years ago

read and react is bs...it's calipari ball for ballers.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Read and react ..... Why not just call it Zoo ball.

It doesn't teach kids to play, it tells kids what you should do when something happens defensively or your team mate executes a drive.

What happens when your players are not skilled in reading this and the ball movement stops ??? It is too much dribble, limited passing to open players until " I've got mine "

Last time I looked, an offense consisted of cutting, screening , spacing and ball movement. Mmmm sounds like Shuffle just might have those qualities.

Shuffle haters a like other haters, ignorant of the system and the opportunities it creates.

Didn't hurt Gaze, Bradke, Exum, Duncan,.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

The people who call motion offence zoo ball are just the ones that don't understand it.

The shuffle is a pattern offense, period! No other way of describing it.

If motion offence is really that zoo ball, why does EVERY single NBA team base their entire offences on it. Motion offences is how you read your defender to every single circumstance, unlimited options in what you can do. (Not i'll pass to wing, then UCLA cut and go weakside etc.)

Every offence has its perks and downsides (eg. Motion takes a long time to team the concept, shuffle and its predictability).

But at the end of the day, if the kids have learnt how to makes reads of their defender on the fly, they can play in any system in the world, and they're the kids who really know 'how to play'. And not simplly 'run an offence'.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

So if the shuffle is so great who is the last player since Gaze to play fit Australia to come out if Melbourne Tigers???

Considering how many great teams they have had at junior level, the shuffle hasnt produced any good players. Just turned good potential players into Robots.

And btw, Bradtke only played the shuffle at senior level.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

If Shuffle is so bad and robotic, then why did Lucas from SA ( Head coach junior national team ) adopt it and make two GF's with Townsville

Is he a bad coach ?

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Because there is a difference between winning at senior level and developing at junior level.

Shuffle is good for results at senior level. But doesn't help players improve at junior level.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

There is some fact to this argument because kids were selected not only because they were decent players but because they knew the shuffle offence.

maybe more so because they knew the offence in some cases interestingly enough.

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Melbourne Boy  
Years ago

Shuffle is great for the left wing and partially for the PG, the 5 man scores on the pick and roll and at the end of firsts occasionally, that's it. So when junior teams run it absolutely everything goes through the best player, so it stunts the development of the others, for seniors this is no problem.

Bradke was used in variation sets as the offense was originally designed to draw the bigger international opponents away from the basket, but in Bradke's case he was a monster in the NBL, so he needed additional sets to get closer to the basket.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

It doesn't really matter what offence you want to use, Shuffle, Princeton, Motion, Triangle, Double-Drive, High-Low, UCLA, Wisconsin Swing, Flex etc, etc as long as the coach at the junior level knows how to explain it to their team and teach good basketball fundamentals. Saying one doesn't work at all or develop good players or skills is ridiculous and out of shuffle saying that only 3 players score is crazy.

The worst thing for juniors is to have bad coaches or those that want to jump on flavour of the month trends. As long as they run a system that teaches players to pass, cut, screen, drive, shoot, play defence and hopefully win is more important than making them hard core fans of one system.

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Melbourne Boy  
Years ago

Correct it's not 3 players scoring, in juniors usually 1 player scores a huge portion of the points from shuffle, the left wing, as 1sts and 3rds(main 2 options)are for that player. When coaches double that player others score after being left alone in the defensive rotations.

I suppose it's more correct to say that the shuffle contains play phases run for only select players, but others can score at times as counters. Bruce Bowen never had 1 play run for him but he stood in the corner and just took 3's on rotation breakdowns, do we really want juniors doing that?

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Tom Wilson, Dj Vasiljivic, Abi Akintola, Mathew Owies all play different positions in the Vic Metro Shuffle offense,

All contributed as did the bench players and all played different roles. How did this offense stunt players ability to learn and play the game and win a National Championship. Lemanis talks of Tom Wilson as a future pt guard at Boomers level

If coaches can teach fundamentals then players develop.

To say only certain players benefit is uninformed. It just gives you control over what shot is take. By whom at any certain time rather than have the wrong guy take the wrong shot from the wrong position as in Triangle , etc

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mike F  
Years ago

To the uniformed person who call Read-n-react zoo ball, you have no idea and no understanding of Read-n-react.

Read-n-react isn't an offense like shuffle, flex etc. It is about teaching players how to play when X happens to with the ball. It's a great developmental tool for developing players team skills and IQ. You simply can't teach all 20 layers any go run it! Players build habits through each layer being implemented and you move on when they demonstrate those habits.

Doesn't suit all coaches because it's not x & O based, its somewhat player driven, requires patience and you must be focused on teaching rather than winning earlier on.

R-n-R kids can, after a certain point, play out of any offense system once they have the basics.

I've used it at U12, U16, U18 and Youth League (U23) with success. Funnily, I've run bits of Kentucky's dribble drive, the 3s element of shuffle, some horns actions and flex as structures / plays with little refinements to stay true to the R-n-R concepts.

Overall, R-n-R teaches them how to play and then they can use any offense.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

+1 for mike F, teach juniors to play first, agree very much. Relating that to under 18 Nationals however, no problems with what Vic metro are doing, they are just doing it a little better than the rest.

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