D
Years ago

Simmons does backflip on Exum

From one of his latest articles:

Simmons: I'm wearing a Dick Bavetta jersey as I write these next 19 words: I’ve never done a faster 180, in my entire career, than the one I pulled off with Dante Exum. Not only did Jalen and I crush the Exum pick in our preview, but when you and I worked on the first draft of this piece, here’s what I wrote: "For me, the Exum subplot is 100 times more fascinating than anything Philly is offering. He might be superduperduper raw, and on top of that, three lottery picks taken right after him (Marcus Smart, Julius Randle and my Rookie Of The Year Choice To Be Revealed A Little Bit Later) could be kicking ass right away. That has a chance to be one of this century’s legendarily bad lottery picks."

I nearly gave myself a concussion leaping on the hood of the Exum bandwagon as it started pulling away. Did you see him in the preseason? It looked like Kobe cloned the teenage version of himself and added an Australian accent. I’m all in! Easily my fastest flip-flop ever — and that’s saying something.

Topic #35722 | Report this topic


Anonymous  
Years ago

Hopefully he can play well again today against the thunder. Been fun watching him play, he isn't consistent but has a few good moments to get people excited

Reply #499179 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Give him time.
Even Kobe averaged only 7 points
per game in his first nba season.

Reply #499181 | Report this post


GWB  
Years ago

can you link us to that article?

Reply #499183 | Report this post


D  
Years ago

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/the-annual-nba-league-pass-rankings-part-1/

Reply #499187 | Report this post


Mick  
Years ago

I think the problem is that he isn't a point guard: he's a pass first guy who plays the two spot, which is highly unconventional. Right now his scoring game and defense are nowhere near NBA level, which is a weird thing to get your head around.

A tall skinny wing who can't shoot, can't finish at the rim all that well, can't play off the ball, can't play defense, can't jump that high, but is long and lightning quick with the ball and can get by anyone despite having no left hand, and is a facilitator first and foremost.

It's hard for people to figure out exactly what he is because the convention says "this kid doesn't fit in a box that we have seen before".

We have no idea what he's going to be. He's super, super raw still and so much is going to hinge on what sort of development coaching he gets. Unfortunately there are no good vets on the Jazz who he can learn from, but at least Quin Snyder appears to be a decent coach.

I really can't think of what his future position, role, or best-case scenario is.

It's very hard to project.

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paul  
Years ago

I think it's playing two-guard alongside a PG who can shoot and doesn't need the ball in his hands all the time. Think of the role Adam Gibson plays alongside combo guards like Deleon, Ervin and Wilson, Dante needs the NBA version of Gibbo.

Reply #499190 | Report this post


Mick  
Years ago

Like a Lance Stephenson playing alongside George Hill in last year's Pacers?

I honestly think the Jazz took him too high and we'll look back on this draft and say Exum should have been around the 10th pick.

I'm starting to worry that Evan Turner or Tyreke Evans are the best case scenarios for Exum, which breaks my heart to say. I really hope I'm wrong though. Big combo guards who need the ball but aren't very great at running an offense; can score off the bounce but can't shoot to save themselves. Those sorts of guys generally don't play big minutes on winning teams.

I think so much hinges on Exum getting a jumpshot, even more than what the critics are saying. All this talk about him playing PG kinda obscured the fact that he can't play off the ball at all, which was a really, really smart move by his agent ahead of the draft.

He reminds me of Gary Ervin when he doesn't have the ball in his hands: standing still on the 45 outside of the three point line, with his hands up and saying, "me, me, me", watching the ball the whole time and not moving.

If he can come back next year with a rebuilt shot, then his ceiling is busted wide open again.

He's still young as hell, so I don't think we'll even have a clue about what his NBA game is going to be like until year 3 at the earliest.

And I really can't think of an NBA player that I could compare his game to, past or present.

Like an Evan Turner who isn't selfish?

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paul  
Years ago

I honestly think he has a bit of a young Dwyane Wade about him. Not identical obviously, but the same horizontal athleticism to get wherever he wants.

Reply #499199 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

What's with the Kobe comparison? Did Kobe also not have a jumpshot at that age? Was Kobe actually unselfish at that age?

Reply #499202 | Report this post


Jez  
Years ago

Simmons criticises the Exum pick.
Exum starts playing well.
Simmons does a backflip and calls Exum the new Kobe. Exum goes for 1 point, 1 assist on 0-4 shooting.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

I would say best comparison is Shaun Livingston and 6-7 PG who does not shoot the 3 point shot at all (career 20% shooter and only attempted 49 3 point shots in 450+ games).

Livingston probably has a better post game at this stage but I would say Dante is a better shooter and will probably be better at the end of his career.

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Jez  
Years ago

Seriously though, many see Exum being in the NBA as an endorsement of the basketball development pathways in Australia, and no doubt the AIS/COE will use him as proof of the strength of their program. But you have to question it when you see his shaky left hand dribble and poor shooting mechanics.

That being said I still think there's a good chance of him becoming a great NBA player because of the other qualities he possesses.

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Naph  
Years ago

I think the Anfernee "Penny" Hardaway comparison is decent.

Penny was 22 when he was drafted though. Give Dante 3 years and we'll see if the comparison still looks good. He's so young he could still become almost anything.

Additionally you would have to hope that Dante doesn't have the same injury issues that Penny had.

Reply #499213 | Report this post


Mick  
Years ago

Livingston has always had a much better feel for the game though. Horrid shooting notwithstanding, he was more of a natural basketball player with a great feel for the game, whereas at this point Exum is a raw athletic blur without too much to offer on the basketball skills side of things outside of assist passing (he still struggles to make non-assist passes).

And I don't see the Penny or Wade comparisons at all. Those guys played above the rim and were always natural scorers and Dante just doesn't have the hops or fluidity to do that.

But, yeah, he'll probably be a completely different player in 3 years. Which is why so much hinges on what the Jazz are going to teach him, because he's just a blob of clay at this point. It could go any which way.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

So simmons rates Exum highly now?

Reply #499233 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

A poor man versions of something in between DWade and Westbrick

Reply #499237 | Report this post


Isaac  
Years ago

I think the Kobe comparison comes because you just see something in the way he moves that is reminiscent of rookie Kobe. Maybe also because he's young and coming from overseas. Not sure if there's much else.

Kobe shot 37% from three as a rookie and has topped that once in 18 years.

No doubt the pre-draft tactics were hugely effective in getting Exum the spot he got, but on his side are the facts that he is really young and no doubt has a good attitude. Can't imagine he's anything but coachable.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

1- he's only 19
2- he will develop quickly in the NBA
3- he will be much better once he's done a year of gym work and gains weight
4- he should have gone to collage for at least 2 seasons
5- he will prove everyone wrong at some point

Reply #499245 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

More evidence that Simmons was a one book wonder.

He now pokes and prods with left field ideas without any real substance.

He backs flips a strong view on the strength of a few pre-season games. Doesn't say much for the strength of his opinions.

Dante will be a solid player for the Jazz by years end.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Interesting that Aussies feature in all top 4 teams to watch that the article listed: 1. Cavs, 2. Clippers, 3. Warriors, 4. Spurs. It makes following Aussies far more palatable when they are on good teams to watch. Utah will be more of a struggle.

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HO  
Years ago

I couldn't picture Dante at collage.

Reply #499250 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

I couldn't picture you at 'collage'

Reply #499258 | Report this post


Bear  
Years ago

I thought Dante and Ben were mates?

Reply #499259 | Report this post


paul  
Years ago

I'm mates with HO but I think he would be a dreadful lottery pick.

Reply #499272 | Report this post


Daneo  
Years ago

It's bill Simmons not Ben...
bill has referred to Ben as his Australian illegitimate love child though.

Reply #499278 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Jez #207 you are right on the money. It is evidence of below par coaching when a kid coming from such a basketball focused program has average fundamentals. Surely you would have him doing individual fundamental skill work from sun up to sun down until he gets it? Should have let Dante go to a better junior program so a real coach could teach him.

The problem is that the AIS is in Canberra, where coaching talent is limited/non-existent. Canberra is a 'boys club' basketball program that teaches kids how to play street ball, and has no idea about the importance of fundamentals. It also places too much emphasis on developing one or two stars and neglects everyone else.

Look at how much time they put into Dufelmeier!!The kid can ball but he has no hope of playing NBA or Europe, and because his dad is an ex-Canberra NBL player, he gets special treatment.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Anon^ you have a point about the coaching at AIS level. They are all about their system now and not wanting to look bad, it is a worry. Gorjian was the man and someone like him at the AIS would set things straight, he works kids hard and doesn't let slip those fundamental things all players need. Boagut would be a lock too, his coaching is exceptional, if you ever get the chance don't avoid him, great teacher.

Reply #499298 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

I think it has to be a major concern for the AIS/COE that so many of their best products come out with poor fundamentals. Delly, Patty, Exum. It's like they look at the flaws in the best kids and say 'oh but it's working for him, so just let him go with it,' rather than pushing them that bit further. One of the hardest things I find in coaching juniors is that improvements in shooting form almost always required a backwards step in shooting success, because they have to do something less practiced and less comfortable.

It's not just about what they're being coached to do, though, it's also about the amount of uncoached time they spend on court. I'm sure some of them put up something in the order of 4,000 shots a week, and 75% of those might be without a coach present. If they're doing that with poor form, are they really getting better?

#295, some of your comments about Canberra basketball might be accurate, but given that Canberra coaches have nothing to do with the AIS/COE, it hardly seems relevant. It would be good to see the AIS with a model that brought in coaches from the State high performance programs on a voluntary basis with some regularity, but that's not their model.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

What's with all this awful talk about shooting mechanics?
My goodness .... mechanics are people too you know! There's no need for such measures. If one rips you off just warn your friends and don't go back. Violence is never the answer.

Reply #499304 | Report this post


Isaac  
Years ago

How many US colleges are putting out products with poor fundamentals? Difficult to coach players with flawed games. Professionals getting paid loads that can't make FTs.

I'd say more than the CoE, it's just a matter of people being people.

Reply #499306 | Report this post


paul  
Years ago

While your point is a good one Isaac, I know I'm not the only one who thinks players come out of the AIS/CoE without a high enough level of basic fundamentals.

Reply #499316 | Report this post


Happy Days  
Years ago

Its an issue across all sports that coaches are so focused on winning rather than teaching the fundmentals.

Reply #499318 | Report this post


Isaac  
Years ago

paul, do people have the same criticism of US colleges though? How many NBA players can you name that have been criticised for weird shooting styles or poor defensive understandings or inability to hit uncontested free throws?

Not saying a particular school can't improve, but that they're up against something common to all schools.

Reply #499321 | Report this post


Wonders  
Years ago

Isn't AIS the premier development facility in the country? If they can't get it right, then what hope do our juniors really have?

Reply #499324 | Report this post


anon  
Years ago

the AIS is focused on the u17 and U19 Aus teams. They need to retain govt funding so emphasis is on winning. Look at players like Odigie /Creek etc- years at the COE and still are below average shooters. I hate to say this but i think the good kids are better off going to the US prep schools' More and more of our better kids are shunning the COE and heading OS

Reply #499325 | Report this post


paul  
Years ago

I don't really buy into the comparison with US colleges Isaac, as they aren't national development programs, they are basketball teams trying to win. Much better comparisons are other national junior programs.

The AIS/CoE is a decent program but could be better, and our country has to get much better at developing the 18-23 age group too.

Reply #499332 | Report this post


fstos  
Years ago

I don't think the AIS/COE is significantly better or worse at developing shooters than the US system. If anything I would say we are possibly better than the US where as Paul said teams are totally focussed on results. There are examples of so many players in either system who are poor shooters. The best/worst example of their inability to teach shooting in a few years at the AIS happened many years ago. I have used it many times as an example that just maybe some people can't be taught. That player was Warrick Giddey. 2 or 3 years (?) at the AIS and he ended up with that shot.

On the other hand if I was to study how shooting technique is taught I would look to Serbia or Lithuania who seen to have a much higher percentage of fundamentally good shooters across all positions.

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paul  
Years ago

Also the fundamentals of footwork, using screens with and without the ball etc. We can get better at that.

If you look at the international stats we are a pretty good shooting nation, but we can definitely get better at that too.

The AIS/CoE are important with all this, but I think our local junior development programs like ITC need to be much much better, it's tough to fix some issues at the CoE if they are already ingrained.

Reply #499339 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

There is not enough funding at the AIS to capture enough of our talented kids to make a difference on the world stage, I agree it is more important at State level before they are 18 years old.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

For the people still knocking his shooting - his set jumper is looking a lot better. His shooting off the dribble still needs a fair bit of work.

Exum has been pretty impressive during the preason. Still a lot to work on but he's showing more and more flashes of greatness.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Exum is crap and simmons is a nobody. One of these blokes that says I told you so after it's already happened.

Reply #499378 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

So many of you have no idea of what happens at the AIS, how hard the kids are worked.

The problem is and has been for a long time, that NBA, NBL, BA CoE, NITP Programs, Colleges, Sate teams, Rep Clubs, etc take tall kids HOPING they teach them the fundamentals & shooting.

Exum was an outstanding Junior player here in Australia. How did he do his scoring? Most of it was from close range as he was so athletic. With speed, it was easy for him to dribble penetrate. Now he can't do that as easily, therefore he's now forced to shoot from midrange or 3P land. Problem is he'd never really had to do that. So doesn't have the consistency of those shots yet.

Will he ever? Time will tell. Personally I hope he does.

However, for too long he was too good for the kids he was up against here in Australia, so many judges were blinded to any deficiencies in his game. He's not the first and won't be the last - Someone pointed out Odigie/Creek quite rightly. There's another one at the AIS now, McVeigh. He's just too good athletically for the kids he comes up against at Nationals and he dominates. However, in SEABL he's at best a 3 man. He's athleticism is limited at this level. He too needs to develop a consistent shot of the dribble and a consistent 3P shot. For me Simmons is similar to Exum & McVeigh, great athlete, but quality of shooting lacking.

Also, don't be blinded by the hype generated by kids in the US high school system. What is the quality of the day in day out games like???

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Anonymous  
Years ago

The AIS and development of youngsters in Australia is amateur compared to the US. Fundamentals are unknown here sadly. Okay maybe they try hard but the point remains. There is virtually no coaching depth in this country yet the players are improving each generation where now we have a massive gap between the two.

I think Aus coaches need to do stints in US before going forward here.

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