Finally the GOAT is being showcased

*Jordan Rides the Bus*

Jordan Rides the Bus

Jordan has been doing media this week for the documentary series before its premiere so I don't think it will be too scathing of him.

Scottie who?

Watched first two episodes and thought they were great. Highly recommended to anyone with even a passing interest in basketball, but especially to all who grew up in that 90s NBA mania.

Saw first episode last night. Loving it.

I was in primary school when Jordan was in his prime, although I've heard and read enough to realise how great he is.

This doco is reminding me of much of the information I've heard through the years and tying it into a well-told story.

For example, while I remember reading about "the shot"- I'd forgotten he was playing against Patrick Ewing. I grew up a Knicks fan before my trip to San Antonio in 2001 where I switched to the Spurs, and Ewing was the first jersey I had.

Although, while reminding me how great Jordan is, I'm also realising how great Pippen is.

Pippen made the all NBA first team in 93-94 and 94-95, and finished 3rd and 7th in the MVP in those two years respectively. Finishing ahead of guys like Malone, Ewing and Barkley in 1994.

I think this shows how great Pippen was.

Lebron's never had anyone alongside him as good as Pippen. He's never had a duo as good as Pippen and Rodman.

And he's never had a trio as great as Pippen, Rodman, Harper.

When you think about what these guys did outside of Jordan's time, you realise how good they wouldv'e been (again I talk from stats etc not watching) but Harper averaged 19 points, 5 assists over 8 seasons with Clippers and Cleveland before joining Chicago. Then after Jordan's time, he was the starting poing guard on two Lakers championships.

Then Steve Kerr who played that famous cameo in the Spurs playoff run in 2003.

Essentially, Jordan was surrounded by quality. Lebron has never had similar, so I think it's unfair when people say "6 championships to 3!" as if that settles the argument.

I do think Jordan is definitely greater than Lebron, but at the same time, you have to admit he had better teammates around him.

Oh and it's a shame this season is cancelled for Lebron too, cos the Lakers have been my title tip since Day 1.

And with Anthony Davis alongside him, Lebron really needed to him if he wanted to maintain hope of a Jordan comparison.

Now that Lebron's been stripped of one of his best opportunities to win a title, it muddies the comparison a little.

LV - Wade, Bosh, Love, Kyrie, AD... some decent names right there (especially the first 2).

LeBron has had stars with him along the way.

DWade, Bosh, Irving, Love are some pretty damn fine names to play alongside. Add in AD to that now.

LeBron could have had more successful years prior to Miami Heat days, if he had stayed the hell away from trying to be GM and Coach - he forced their hand on doing some absolutely crap contracts.

He doesn't have the patience for the getting the right pieces so his solution was to join a good situation instead.

Wade started declining around 2012 ish

So LeBron had a true superstar next to him for maybe 2 years.

I don't rate Kyrie in the same conversation.

Bosh and Love decent number 3s. But they played their whole careers in losing teams before joining LeBron.

It's one thing putting up numbers on losing teams and making All Star teams, but Rodman led the league in rebounding 7 years in a row, and 7 time All Defensive teamer. Played on successful teams. I don't think the value that Kevin Love or Bosh brings is as important as Rodman.

Or at least that's my inkling anyway

And who was the number 4 guy in Miami? Mario Chalmers! Is he remotely comparable to Ron Harper?

Yeah no doubt LeBron Miami years were a disappointment as a whole.

This is why Jordan is the true GOAT. He had the real killer instinct that LeBron lacks. Jordan winning two three peats, and so easily, is super super impressive no matter who he had next to him.

LeBron was matched by Kawhi in the Finals and his team destroyed in 2014.

And he failed to win in 2011 with real prime Wade

[Who are you talking to?]

Whoever's listening, and whoever wants to discuss the GOAT

It's natural that when discussing the GOAT, the greatest since the GOAT, or the greatest of the 21st century, will come up

[the biggest shock for me is learning that LV is more than 30 years old]

Ha, with several years to spare

I'm probably one of the true veterans here. Started posting on Ozhoops in 2001 or 2002

Just wish MJ didn't leave to play baseball and the Bulls never got broken up for his 2nd retirement, MJ would arguably have at least another 2 titles (no way were Houston going to beat them) maybe more and this whole MJ vs Lebron argument would never have to take place.

I don't really think it's an argument, Jordan is clearly better.

Lebron has been lucky to even win 3 titles in many ways.

2013 they won game 6 after the ropes were already getting placed around the court. The trophy was there, ready for the Spurs.

2016 yes, he beat the 73-9 Warriors from 3-1 down but he was helped immensely by Bogut's injury and Green's suspension, allowing him to attack the hoop and dominate those last 3 games.

But Lebron is still the greatest since Jordan, I don't think anyone should doubt that.

And you compare that to Jordan and how he dominated.

I still remember, although I was young, hearing they beat Utah 96-54.

54 points in a finals game. That's just nuts. Bulls just had the killer instinct.

Why do we keep using team stats to assess individual talent?

"I don't really think it's an argument, Jordan is clearly better. "

I agree, but it clearly is an argument across generations and every basketball analyst show that exists...

The analysts and the fans need something to talk about.

Here's an interesting bit of history.

1994 NBA All Star game- the first season of Jordan's baseball retirement.

The Eastern Conference All Stars had SEVEN first time All Stars.

None of these 7 ever made the All Star team again.

Starters:

BJ Armstrong - Chicago
Derrick Coleman- NJ
Kenny Anderson- NJ

Bench:

John Starks - NY
Horace Grant- Chi
Mookie Blaylock- ATL
Charles Oakley - NY

But the East still won, with Pippen the MVP.

Hi All,

If you would love to listen and learn more about The Last Dance, please check out our podcast- Hoops Fix.

https://www.buzzsprout.com/970150

BSA have created this podcast and this episode breaks down more of what we have seen and heard in the first 2 instalments...

Topics discussed:

Time shifting of storyline
Jerry (Krause & Reinsdorf)
How Super Teams of Today have learned from the 97-98 Bulls?
Bad suits & bloodshot eyes...
Coach-player relationships
Competitive mindset
Jordan's college days, coaches and nba draft
Team culture-
Pippen on strike...
George Raveling
Phil Rodman (not Dennis-well, Dennis too!)

Thank you,

Will.

96 Bulls easily greatest team ever

Who gets close to them?

If Jordan had retired forever in 1993, he would still be the GOAT in many people's eyes

But after 18 months away, he returned at the age of 32. Another three peat. More MVP's, Finals MVPs, Defensive teams.

Then has three and a half years away. Returns again. Averages 23pts,6reb, 5 assists as a 38 year old. Retires at 40.

It's just a surreal storyline. Like a movie.too bad I was too young to fully appreciate it at the time just how incredible that is.

You've got to admit that Krause is a f***ing fool

When Jordan retired in 93....

- 3 straight titles with 3 straight finals MVPs

- 3 MVPs in the last 6 years

- 7 straight all NBA 1st teams

- 6 straight all NBA defensive first team including 1 DPOY

How many players have achieved any of those things?

There would be a small handful who've done the latter two, but what about the first two?

Jordan did them all.

Watched first two episodes and thought they were great. Highly recommended to anyone with even a passing interest in basketball, but especially to all who grew up in that 90s NBA mania.

The MJ and Lebron debate is stale and I am sick of having it. They dominated two different eras with different conditions.

As for The Last Dance, it's been epic. It's been like basketball's Game of Thrones. It's got heroes, villians, side plots. And a lot of it is news to the general public because it all happened before social media. I've been enthralled and could have easily binge watched all 10 episodes at once.

After watching episode 2 last night, my impression is Pippen was a sook. Even Jordan said as much.

The stuff about him being underpaid is a bit of a beat up. While Pippen was seriously underpaid in about 1997 and 1998, he wasn't that underpaid for the entirety of that deal.

In the 90's, the money wasn't comparable- for example, when Ewing and Olajuwon met in the finals they were on $3mil and $4mil per year. Most of those 90's stars ended up earning more money as 37 year old role players than they were as 27 year old superstars.

If you can trust the figures from basketball reference, the NBA salary cap started shooting upwards from 1995 to about 2006, then stalled for a while.
Then, as we know, it shot up with the new agreement a few years ago.

Pippen's mistake was signing the 7 year deal. But the quote in the doco about "he could've earned 9 or 10 times that" in nonsense.

And Pippen's not the only championship star to be on a long term, undervalued deal. Ben Wallace was similar.

Interestingly both those guys then signed whopping deals and went from the most underpaid players to some of the the most overpaid players later in their careers!

In the Bulls early championships Pippen was actually paid more than any of his opponents (according to Bball ref)

Pippen was on 2.8mil/yr for his 7 year deal from 91-92 to 97-98.

In 92 Portland's highest paid player was Kevin Duckworth on $2,013,000

In 93 Barkley was Phoenix highest at 2.4mil.

As above, in the 94 finals Ewing was on 3.8mil, Olajuwon 3.1mil.

The salary cap was $12.5mil in 91-92 but it was $26.9mil by 97-98. Obviously there would've been a myriad of exemptions and luxury taxes like there are today.

If we are comparing competition faced between MJ and LeBron eras, look at the original USA dream team that MJ was a part of and the best player on.

These were his competitors and has there been a dream team or any international team since that would even get close talent wise

The problem I have with the dream team argument is that I believe the reason why that's the case (not another team as strong) is due to multiple factors - the rest of the world improving significantly (Europe in particular), the continuing gulf between how the NBA is played and officiated versus the FIBA game, and the fact that the best players don't tend to all play. Reason #2 though I think is very evident any time we watched NBA superstars struggle at the World Cup or Olympics - even those playing for teams outside of the USA (ie. Giannis).

There's some responsibility though on a team to address that drama. Either rework and extend the contract, or shoulder the disgruntled employee. History says the path they took in alienating Jackson/Jordan/Pippen and then trading Pippen for peanuts wouldn't be hard to beat. They stuffed around for 5-10 years when it wouldn't have been difficult to keep Jackson and Jordan onside plus get Pippen happier with his contract situation.

Agreed.

And why on earth were they messing around with protracted contract negotiations with Jackson, when Jordan had already stated, in no uncertain words, that Jackson was the only coach he'd ever play for?

I would assume it was only a money issue. Except, then when they signed Jackson, they publicly said it would be his last year.

It's completely nuts.

And history shows us where the Bulls ended up for the next 5 or 10 years after Jordan!

Krause had a big ego hence his comment "Organisations win championships" implying the coach and players were just along for the ride.

It was madness to break up a team that had just won it's third straight championship in a rush to rebuild, you can rebuild after they've stopped winning titles but supposedly Krause had picked Tim Floyd from the college ranks to be the new coach and was eager to let him get started probably in the belief it would've be too long until they were back up there again.

As history showed Tim Floyd was a disaster as coach and the organisation hasn't won a championship since.

Will this be shown on free to air at a later date?

I knew Krause was obsessed with trying to get rid of Phil and replace him with Tim Floyd I didn't know he was this crazy though:

https://nba.nbcsports.com/2020/04/22/tim-floyd-bulls-tried-to-hire-me-in-1989-1996/

No, Wilbur.

"If nothing else, the documentary proves that the game of basketball, on every level, is played by big athletic competitive Winners....& run by weird pompous self loathing little Midgets who are bitter that they were never good enough. Sad, but true."

Probably true for every pro sport, if we look past the stereotyping and labeling.

Basketball would probably be a team sport with more “player power” than most others though. In its nature, with a few players able to make a big difference to teams and whole leagues. In AFL and NRL, it's much harder for a team to turn around a season by injection of 2-3 players.

That’s why changing imports is such a good strategy in the NBL. Jordan, LeBron, Magic, Kobe were all “franchise players”. Teams were literally built around a single star player and how they worked with a small supporting cast of co-contributors.

Plus the culture of the NBA. Can you imagine a Rodman in the AFL?

I started watching this series with interest.
Got bored pretty quickly with all the Jordan ego-stroking.

IMHO, even as misquoted, Krause was correct.
NBA is not pick-up. It's not a bunch of guys deciding to play together. These are units assembled by people who know what they're doing. Moreover, those pulling the Bulls line-ups together during that period, did an exceptional job to build those teams around Jordan. Even Rodman was more attention-seeking exhibitionist than ego, and Pippen and others they brought together great players who were prepared to take a back-seat to Jordan.

Whether or not you agree that Jordan is the goat (and I'm not going to debate that) we don't need 10 episodes telling s he is. The whole thing smells like a clumsy attempt to rehabilitate the reputation of somebody who has become almost a parody of his own success.

And yeah, there is something really distasteful about doing a hatchet job on Krause when he is dead. And the story they tell doesn't make sense.
It was well know at the time that there was a schism between management and Jackson/Jordan. But they're trying to make out that it was due only to Krause.

I'm loving this doco.

It's a great story, and they're telling it well.

I'm planning on watching the 30-for-30's on the Bad Boys too. Need to know more about them.

Good idea. Complement the series with Bad Boys, Jordan Rides the Bus and the Rodman two-parter.

What you call Jordan ego stroking, most others I would imagine would see it as a great insight into arguably one of the greatest athletes of all time. He hasn't hid from anything in the first few episodes, has been very open and candid on alot of issues, as have the other players and staff. It is an incredible opportunistic look at all levels of one of the great modern professional sports teams in what was their final year together.

Side note - I think the greatness of Phil Jackson is overlooked by many too. Including his 5 with the Lakers, he had 11 rings in some 15 odd years throughout the 90s / 00s. That is simply phenomenal

'Yes, will be good to see Luc get the recognition he deserves'


Actually, he won't. The director has confirmed that Luc Longley won't feature in interviews in the documentary due to budget constraints. I presume because Longley is based in Australia is why it won't be possible for him to feature in the documentary which is understandable.

However, Andrew Gaze did feature in interviews for a documentary about Seaton Hall's run to the NCAA championship game which featured on ESPN. So they didn't seem to have any problems despite Gaze was most likely based in Australia at the time of making it.

https://www.foxsports.com.au/basketball/the-real-reason-why-mjs-aussie-teammate-didnt-feature-in-documentary/news-story/6adb6b3c56e9139f8534fb2729cf921a

Watched 30 for 30 Bad Boy doco. so good.

And going back to my comments earlier in this thread, most people would pick Kukoc as the next guy after Pippen and Rodman

But it really doesnt matter- Pippen and Rodman were two teammates, better as a duo than any duo Lebron ever had. And if you add Harper and Kukoc as well- say Pippen, Rodman, Kukoc, Harper- the guys alongside Jordan for the 96-98 threepeat- Lebron has never had a group of 4 teammates anything like that

International guys often struggle initially when entering the NBA and improve gradually- think of Joe Ingles for example

Kukoc averaged 16-5-5 shooting over 50% from the field in his second season in 94-95 as a starter on a 2nd round playoff team. He won 6th man of the year on the 95-96 team that lost 13 games including playoffs.

Based on that, Kukoc would've started in any other team.

So if you go with Pippen, Rodman, Kukoc instead of Harper then- which trio of Lebron teammates has even come close? I can't think of any that get anywhere near it. Maybe Wade, Bosh and a 38 year old Ray Allen?

Watching the games back again, I can say this, if Jordan played in todays NBA, with the referees calling the game they way they do today, Jordan would have 25+ free throws a game and average close to 50. He would be simply unstoppable.

What you call Jordan ego stroking, most others I would imagine would see it as a great insight into arguably one of the greatest athletes of all time

Did anyone notice the Chris Anstey (DAL) cameo in the Denis Rodman highlights package at the start of episode 3 at about 1:30.

It was his rookie season at Dallas - had some good games that year.

"Did anyone notice the Chris Anstey (DAL) cameo in the Denis Rodman highlights package at the start of episode 3 at about 1:30.

It was his rookie season at Dallas - had some good games that year."

That footage was from the game the Mavericks came back from 19 points in the fourth quarter to defeat the Bulls in overtime. Phil Jackson walked out of the game before it ended because he just couldn't believe what he had seen.

Interestingly Anstey has said that if the Mavericks hadn't drafted him at the 18 pick in 1997 that the Bulls had told his agent they would take him at 28th pick in the first round. Anstey also said he would benefited more if the Bulls had drafted him rather then being selected by the then struggling Mavericks. Anstey would be traded to the Bulls two years later after being drafted but by then the team was a shell of the successful Bulls teams from the dynasty.

On Jordan's yellow eyes

One interesting story from the doco was Rodman knocking on Jordan's hotel room door, followed by those two sharing a cigar

Did these guys seriously smoke cigars on the regular, or was it more an occasional victory cigar?

If it was on the regular, kind of adds to the mythology about Jordan's greatness. If you're legitimately smoking those things (which each have the nicotine of a pack of ciggies) and still smoking everybody on the court....wow

Ha! If you think that's impressive go and watch the Rodman series to see how much he drank every night yet showed up to practice unscathed and ultimately out rebounding everybody in games.

Lots more cigars in episode 6.....