10 Peach < SBS Viceland.

I don't think 10 Peach is even in HD?

I'll answer my own question - 10 Peach is not available in HD.

Does anyone know if it will be "exclusively" available through Kayo/ESPN, or will there still be the option of the NBL TV app and subscription?

Not having the games broadcast in HD on FTA is a big loss.

No HD is a problem but having a set time on a Sunday arvo is a good thing.

Massive step backwards.

Ignore the NBL spin on this being an exciting new development - it's a step backwards. The only way you can watch every NBL game live now will be with a paid subscription. Fine for people with Kayo, but no good for everyone else. The HD SBS Viceland or SBS On Demand app was far better.

Two games per week will be broadcast live on 10 Peach every Sunday in the 1pm-5pm timeslot, with those same games to also be broadcast live in HD on Network 10's on demand service, 10 Play.

stream the games in HD from their app. no different to using SBS app which I always get poor quality from anyway

The only way you can watch every NBL game live now will be with a paid subscription.

We knew that months ago when they first announced the ESPN/Kayo deal, and that's been the case for almost every season that's had every game broadcast at all. It's only been the last year or two that all games have been freely available.

Nothing made me happier than NBL on 10 in the 90's before we had Pay TV

It is what it is guys. Either you pay the subscription or find alternative free streaming sites, though they can be delayed for 15 seconds to a minute, at least the games are in great HD quality. 

Not the worst deal, maybe with a bit of traction TEN might bump it to the main channel, don't see what else that could rate more on the main channel on a Sunday arvo in summer anyway?

We were always pretty lucky to be able to access every game for free, I mean what other sport in AUS still does that?

Not feeling so peachy?

In terms of paying for a subscription - aside from Olympics/Oz Open tennis, almost all sports are on paid TV/streaming. AFL, Cricket, NRL, RU, A-League, Swimming, EPL, Champions League, Euros, Wimbledon etc.

At least NBL is in the same spot as AFL, Cricket, NRL.

Obviously would have loved to see the NBL have their two free games on Ten's main channel. Clearly NBL isn't there yet popularity wise.

Because they're getting ~$45mil over three years in cash+contra - They're going to have to deliver for ESPN and Fox (Kayo) in terms of ratings and subscriptions.

A little bit of a poison chalice scenario in that 1) they're competing against other sports on the same platform for viewership and 2) limited capacity to immerse and attract casual viewers because most of it is behind a paywall.

Obviously, Viceland offered HD (why does Ten not have a second HD channel like everyone else?) and tailored content that actually worked in the NBLs favour (apart from sticking foreign news in between NBA and NBL - that's a sure fire way to get people to move to a different channel).

From the NBLs perspective - for the lack of being on a main TV channel, at least Peach offers a 2.5% share market reach whilst Viceland is 1.2%. (Ten Bold is 3.7% - would have been a better "secondary channel" option surely?) Incidentally SBS' main channel is 5.2% - NBL couldn't swing that?

Casual viewership wise in theory 10Peach gives the NBL slightly greater capacity to get better ratings and reach. Whether they translate that - they will need to do a fair bit of marketing.

Very much assuming they handed Ten those two games for $0

I mean there are 9.30am games NBA that finish at 12.30/1pm

Not sure Ten will bother to pay for that and have basketball 9am til 5pm

I'd never even heard of 10 Peach until this announcement, whereas I was already well aware of Viceland before the NBL's deal with them, so those numbers are surprising.

Says more about you than anything KR

Tbh Ten peach would be the channel I'd more likely to have on in the evening - they usually have Friends or Big Bang Theory on.

That tells you what type of market it is I guess.

Probably. The only FTA I watch is SBS World Movies, and I watch an shit-ton of it, so I'm hardly the typical viewer. And I've watched nothing Ch10 at all in many years. I could name probably most Ch7 channels, I'm aware of Gem and Go from Ch9, and SBS obviously has Viceland, World Movies, and Food.

7flix is weirdly not a movie channel and all the others just have random names and no real branding. It's kind of a mess.

Everyone wants to watch every game, no one wants to pay for it, and then everyone wonders why the NBL isn't sustainable. If two free standard definition games a week don't do it for you, spend the amount you'd spend on a cup of coffee PER WEEK on the Kayo app. If that still doesn't do it for you, then watch The Bachelor or something, I am not sure what to tell you? Nothing in the world is for free. Someone is always paying for it. Everyone has been happy with Kestleman picking up the bill then having the nerve to complain about exactly how he signs the cheque. For the ongoing sustainability and prosperity of the league I am happy with the decisions they've made thus far. Does standard definition suck a bit? Sure. But there could be opportunites for scaling up in the future and that's what we need to look towards.

^
Couldn't have said it better. Well said!

What ME said, the NBL need to make money to improve and increase the standard so we might have to pay a bit. Until this thread I honestly didn't know anyone that didn't have Kayo. If you don't want to pay the full price then find someone to share an account with to halve the cost, or watch what's available on free to air.

Agree that the branding of these "other" channels is a mess. TBH I barely watch free to air anymore outside of ABC Kids for the little ones and the news. I am well invested in the streaming services spaghetti nightmare however... Even though FTA coverage doesn't mean much to me, happy there is something there for those that don't have Kayo etc. though. I think most people realistically could not/should not have expected the continued great and free broadcast of all games to continue.

I find it weird that most of the discussion is about it being necessary to pay now if you want to watch all the games (which was already clear from the ESPN/Kayo announcement months back), and not about the fact that it's buried on Peach in SD (which was not clear at all, and is a downgrade in quality for no real upgrade in visibility).

@Kobe, I do agree with you above (pay for NBL viewership), however I do have the view that this could effect the league longer-term. Obviously, die-hards will pay the $15-25 a month for Kayo, but what about casual viewers and therefore, overall viewership numbers when the contract is up for renewal, what will they look like?

Kayo is $25 a month. The only way that would seem like a lot of money is if you're so used to getting something for free that you've become a little bit entitled.

"@Kobe, I do agree with you above (pay for NBL viewership), however I do have the view that this could effect the league longer-term. Obviously, die-hards will pay the $15-25 a month for Kayo, but what about casual viewers and therefore, overall viewership numbers when the contract is up for renewal, what will they look like?"


I don't see how it would be less than now. No ome really watches VICELAND and about the same amount of no one watches Peach. NBL was already on ESPN as it was. I do struggle to see how Peach is a step up from VICELAND but I can CERTAINLY see how a 20 million per year (reportedly) ESPN/FOXtel/KAYO and Newscorp deal is far and away better than any other alternative that's been suggested.

but what about casual viewers and therefore, overall viewership numbers when the contract is up for renewal, what will they look like?

Right, and that comes back to FTA visibility, which right now is arguably worse than it was last year. Anyone who was used to going to SBS Viceland/On Demand but didn't otherwise engage with the league will no longer know where to find the games, and nobody is going to just stumble across the games on 10 Peach any more than they were on Viceland. There's no longer the NBA lead-in/advertising slot, either.

Unless they're raking in a ton of cash for this, it's a pretty major disappointment. But that has nothing to do with the number of games being aired.

I had 2 Mandarins and they weren't HD?

FTA visibility means a whole lot less now than it ever has. I am not sure FTA will mean any less than being constantly plugged by Newscorp.

Right, and that comes back to FTA visibility, which right now is arguably worse than it was last year.

Mhm I think you're working on an anecdotal basis of yourself - 10Peach has twice the ratings - not that it makes up much anyway.

I'd be curious as to what the NBA and NBL ratings figures were. As much as having NBA was a great idea, placing foreign news in-between is a guaranteed way to have the worst lead-in possible for the NBL.

I would say "arguably slightly better overall" for capturing casual audience; "definitely worse" in terms of SD/HD; but disappointed it's not on a major channel.

I do struggle to see how Peach is a step up from VICELAND but I can CERTAINLY see how a 20 million per year (reportedly)

2.5% audience share > 1.2% if that makes it easier for you.

Not $20mil; closer to $15mil (reportedly) Cash+Contra.

spend the amount you'd spend on a cup of coffee PER WEEK on the Kayo app. If that still doesn't do it for you, then watch The Bachelor or something

You were guaranteed to come to this thread and say something like that.

I'm not a fan of the "entitled" argument - it's very clear you have this as a fundamental basis of your political viewpoint and you have infused it into this argument. Often the people who bitch about entitlement are the ones that really have received the most entitlement and the irony never really hits home.

What I would say to you, is that entitlement is irrelevant in this - certainly not relevant to the NBL. So you can ditch political diatribe.

#1 We all know NBL needs revenue to grow, thrive, be sustainable
#2 We all know that sports often survive on the basis of TV revenue - NBL has gone damn close recently of getting there without it, but we all know it fully needs a good TV revenue deal like this to genuinely have a shot at being sustainable
#3 We all know that most broadcast money these days comes from PayTV. Even AFL get most of it via Fox. NBL will never get much or any $$$ from FTA TV.

With that in mind, they've signed a good paying deal with ESPN.

So here's the thing: when you're ESPN and you're paying ~$15m p/y, you're going to expect and demand a damn decent return in value. So the NBL needs to deliver some good ratings and they need to deliver subscriptions.

You only get that if 1) you have sufficient (casual) market reach and 2) the value proposition is there for the (casual) market to put their money into it.

The question is - does one or two games on FTA engage and convert a reasonable amount of the casual market? Does the gameday NBL do the same thing in terms of entertainment value vs cost of tickets; or are cost of tickets prohibitive?

At the end of the day - if the NBL can't translate ~$45m into reasonable ratings and subscription take-up, those future deals and that money they really need down the track to operate simply might not be there.

While it's easy to chastise people with a simpleton view on entitlement, the very real business aspect on this is what is the value proposition of the NBL to a critical number of people in order for the NBL to make good on the money their sponsors and broadcasters are paying them.

"You're not willing to pay $x per month for the NBL? Go watch the Bachelor" would be a one-way street approach to business failure. No traction = no future - if the NBL fails the value-add test, that's what the NBL needs to work hard to change.

It's all well and good to rely on those who want to watch the NBL and have all the streaming services like me; or someone who will ditch their daily coffee like you. But that's not enough - NBL knows that. They need traction with the casual market that will very fairly argue "why do you deserve my money?".

Mhm I think you're working on an anecdotal basis of yourself - 10Peach has twice the ratings - not that it makes up much anyway.

But does that mean more people casually browse 10Peach, or does that mean more things are on 10Peach that people make an effort to seek out?

And is there enough extra viewership there to cancel out the viewership that might be lost due to habitual SBS viewers no longer knowing where to find the league, and/or there being no advertising during SBS's NBA coverage?

Is 10Peach's demographic one that overlaps with the NBL's as well as, or better than, Viceland's?

It's not as simple as just looking at the overall reach and saying it's bigger.

But does that mean more people casually browse 10Peach, or does that mean more things are on 10Peach that people make an effort to seek out?

Goes hand in hand sometimes - it's sitcom central that's a bit of both.

SBS has always been more niche, people don't "casually browse" there like they do with the main networks and their peripheral channels.

You could pull the anecdotal response back to me - but i'd probably reflect a less niche market than you by the sounds of things?

might be lost due to habitual SBS viewers

I mean... habitual viewer and SBS don't tend to go hand in hand - lowest rating set of channels, Viceland just about the lowest rating network.

Nichest of niche.

Is 10Peach's demographic one that overlaps with the NBL's as well as, or better than, Viceland's?

If the NBL's casual market demographic that it's trying to reach is family and youth, than yes absolutely 150%.

It's not as simple as just looking at the overall reach and saying it's bigger.

Yeah sure - but all the points you raise go against SBS because it's such a niche network which most people actively avoid, except, well, you.

I don't have anything against SBS and a lot of what Viceland is doing actually appeals to me - but if I had family around, i'd chuck it onto 10peach over Viceland.

What we are talking about here is the right market and translatable market. SBS has never really been the best FTA market for the NBL, it's just the one that has been available and not treated the NBL like shit.

I think the questions you raise/points you make point firmly that Peach is arugably better.

The disappointment here is SD over HD, and not being a major network channel which is really what we all were hoping for.

Do I think Peach will succeed in having enough viewers to boost ratings for the NBL?

No.

Do I think it has a better chance than Peach?

Yes, slightly.

Would it surprise me if it was negliglbe?

Not at all - these peripheral channels are the lowest point of a heavily fractured market. NBL on a peripheral channel represents a huge problem regardless of which peripheral channel they use. I don't think it will deliver enough reach to help them grow and deliver the kind of engagement and traction required to fulfill their value to ESPN.

But that's how it is.

Do I think it has a better chance than SBSViceland***

Eh, means instead of watching 90% of games I'll just have the two games a week on 10 Peach (urgh) but the NBL and the clubs will now be getting $15 million a year and the NBL won't be hidden away on some two-bob streamer no one has ever heard of.

That's a big win for LK and the NBL.

Lol "Simpleton views about entitlement". I did chuckle when I read that. And this has nothing to do with my political views. I am talking to and about NBL fans who already buy the product who seem to be complaining they cant just get it for free.

Anyway, onto KET's broader points, I think Peach and Viceland are pretty interchangeable in their value to the league. I am only aware of Peach because they have the Seinfeld re-runs. There could be a family audience there, and maybe it's bigger than Viceland but I agree in as much as it's hardly going to be the thing that breaks the NBL through the door. I am not sure anyone expected the NBL to make it on a major channel in prime time. It's just not where the league is yet.

As for what the ESPN expects from the NBL, I think it has more to do with content than bringing in subscribers and massive ratings. The NBL has never been a ratings winner. We've never seen any evidence that it ever would be. It is a niche product that does modestly well in in-person attendance but fails to beat Antiques Roadshow in ratings. I doubt ESPN expect that to change all that much.

I think the reason the NBL got the deal they got is because ESPN wants local content, and the NBL is local content with a built-in, yet modest audience. Stan was actually proactively trying to lure the NBL away from ESPN and allegedly gave them a decent deal, so ESPN responded in kind, along with Foxteol and Kayo knowing they need content. The NBL may not be a ratings winner, but it's going to do better than darts and lawn bowls, so 15 million a year is actually not that much to throw at a league that should make continued, yet modest gains. Of course it benefits ESPN if the viewership and interest grows but I am sure they're quite reasonable to the extent of their expectations.

The thing NO ONE is talking about is the news corp part of the deal, especially that newscorp will now have a dedicated basketball writer. This is a bigger deal than people are making it. Means all the big papers and their online equivalents will be pumping out regular basketball content which will increase the reach of the league on social media especially, which may be even more important than whatever is happening on FTA.

I mean... habitual viewer and SBS don't tend to go hand in hand - lowest rating set of channels, Viceland just about the lowest rating network.

I meant habitual viewers of the NBL broadcasts on SBS. Those who have learned over the past couple of seasons that SBS is the place to watch NBL games, and if there isn't an NBL game on SBS then they don't bother investigating further.

As far as the value of secondary channels goes...before today I couldn't name a single secondary Ch10 channel, but I was familiar with a handful from each of the other networks. Ch10 just hasn't got their brands out there anywhere that I would see them. Is Ch10 proper still in relative freefall, ratings-wise? I imagine each primary channel does at least something to push viewers toward secondary channels.

I am not sure anyone expected the NBL to make it on a major channel in prime time.

No, but they could at least get one of those things, I'd have thought. And barring that, at least a channel that airs in HD. Bearing in mind that eight years ago, under BA, the NBL had a Sunday afternoon game on Channel Ten proper. Now, with so much progress having been made elsewhere, we have a Sunday afternoon game on Channel Ten's secondary channel? Doesn't add up.

Yeah, it's interesting. I am not sure what the draw was for the NBL to go to Peach as I am sure Viceland were probably happy to continue on. Is there a chance that Peach could become a HD channel?

" I meant habitual viewers of the NBL broadcasts on SBS."

I would suspect and suggest to you they're by and large NBL fans that would follow the NBL anywhere on FTA. Like say, Zodiac. The tiny amount of casual viewership they may lose would probably be well and truly made up by partnering with a bigger network with a bigger audience that draws upon the demographics they are targeting.

Yes it does help to have stability- the three years they should endeavour to build it and hopefully they will try.

“ I am not sure what the draw was for the NBL to go to Peach”

I mean it’s very obvious and I’ve been shouting it from the rooftops. NBL wants greater market reach and their growth market is young family demographic - they’ve been unabashed and clear in this.

Peach has twice the audience, and it’s audience is skewed to young family demographic whilst SBS with half the audience is not skewed that way demographically.

If you’re a young family you’re more likely to watch Big Bang theory than you are 8 out of 10 cats does countdown. I’m a big fan of jimmy carr, but I can still fathom that my particular bubble of life isn’t necessarily “main stream” or the demographic the NBL are trying to expand to and find growth in. They’ve got the male slanted sports lover in espn/Kayo.

They want the Disney loving family that are likely to know 10Peach exists and not know viceland exists.

Do you require any elaboration?

Some people here sound like an 80yearold who thinks just because they’ve never heard of “The Youtube”, that it’s not popular.

Trust this assists.

Should add - I suspect some of the NBL fans watching Viceland and sbsondemand they would anticipate would move to Kayo/take that up instead of "move to 10Peach".

They need them to - they need the NBL dedicated to take up Kayo or Fox. Their FTA strategy would be less “provide all content as accessible and free as possible” for NBL fans to “translate NBL dedicated to Kayo, grow and capture casual young family market through FTA”.

And that would be a sound sensible plan

Channel Ten are owned by newscorp arent they?

Does this mean no Twitch for viewers abroad? What will all the American compulsive gamblers do? How will they be able to complain that the NBL is "rigged" and "trash"?

But seriously, Twitch was excellent for NBL streams. Reliable and fast loading, easy navigation including skip forward to skip through games when short of time and skip backward for own replays. And the streaming option with a chat section makes you feel more involved in an event than just the perception of streaming something by yourself.

" Channel Ten are owned by newscorp arent they?"

No.

ViacomCBS

@ME

https://www.10viacomcbs.com.au/news-and-insights/nbl-returns-to-network-10/

It will be interesting to see just how much Ten promotes the NBL. We all remember what Channel Ten's NBL "promotion" used to be in the 2010s, and unless you were actively watching the game you wouldn't have known it was on. Hopefully this Project piece is a sign of things to come.

But having said that, when Nine took up the NBL I think we all expected a more sustained promotion than they actually delivered. What I want to know is what is it that LK has agreed to that ensures any of that with this new deal.

Yeah, I remember when Gaze said the league should take a year off and suddenly Ten discovered it existed, did a story on The Project about how the league was dying and cited "no FTA coverage" as one of the reasons. It'd been airing on Ch10 for the previous five years.

Channel 1 was always meant to be tens designated sports channel and its in much better HD quality. That would be perfect!

But as others have mentioned Peach is more likely to attract the casual viewer and younger demographic not just the die hard sports fans.

Two things spring to mind here firstly, NBL can completely compete with A-League as that is on channel ten now as well so that should be fascinating.

Secondly, and I know I'm living in fantasy land but if the plan is for it to move over to peach but due to the Boomers etc and the buzz still going on they have it on the main channel and the game goes into overtime then that could be the best promotion we could ask for as we know than channel ten like starting their news 'first at five' so I think that's why I won't stay on the main channel but it could be exactly what LK wants.

Speaking of Boomers and the success in the Olympics, can we PLEASE have our refereeing in line with FIBA and allow more physicality (plus jump ball) as playing by those exact rules will only benefit the Boomers players more and we will see Boomers players in the NBL for years to come as much as it seemed we wouldn't not that long ago.

So 1PM games.

Reckon they'd be game to slide a cheeky 10amer Perth home game?

Last month Network 10 finally launched one of their secondary channels in HD to accommodate the deal they signed with football. 10 Bold is in HD now and will air W-League games, meaning both A-League (10) and W-League (10 Bold) will be broadcast free to air in HD.

Meanwhile NBL is the ugly step-child relegated to a standard definition 10 Peach. Yuck.

I think it again highlights the power disparity between the two leagues. The A Leagues have that kinda power and the NBL doesnt (at present) as much as many commenters on here see them as equals, they very much aren't.

Another example is a potential sale of stake in the A Leagues which values it at $430M

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/soccer/a-leagues-set-for-130-million-payday-with-equity-sale-to-us-firm-20211023-p592jm.html

Gotta wonder whose idea it was for 10Peach over 10bold?

Does nbl clash with wleague on 10bold?

Is it because NBL wants the 10peach demographic?

The quality of 7two, 9go and 10Peach sucks and NBL have always been stuck on those except for their SBS foray where Viceland is in HD.

Non-HD is disgusting

Looks like Sunday A-league Women's games generally start at 4pm so doesn't seem to clash with the earlier NBL games. Definitely seems odd.