Anonymous
Years ago

Umpires In Training

Is anyone able to tell me why tonight at Wayville there was a district game with two green shirt umpires supervised by a grey shirt whilst on the other two courts there were social games with two black and white umpires on each.

Whilst I commend the powers-that-be for the introduction of the green shirts to indicate an umpire in training I don't think it is fair to players, coaches and spectators for two of them to have charge of a game. Particularly when there are two social games being played at the same time.

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roeroeoeurboat  
Years ago

Which part of this surprises you?

Reply #139142 | Report this post


afroman jnr  
Years ago

at pasadena this doesnt happen, there is one green shirt and then one senior referee who is in grey

Reply #139152 | Report this post


J Packer  
Years ago

I think you'll find that the social comp and the district comp are run completely separate of eachother. I totally agree though there shouldn't be 2 green shirts on a game together.

Its just a sign of the times within this state on the shortage of quality refereee at ALL levels including ABL.

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who me  
Years ago

Do you think mabe its possible that both of those umpires were nearing there training and both are at a standard to ref that game.

do you think the head ref would have let them both umpire if he didint think they were capable of it.

Im sick of everyone talking shit about theres not enough umpires stop coming on here and bitching and go pick up a whistle and do something about it.

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who me  
Years ago

Do you think mabe its possible that both of those umpires were nearing there training and both are at a standard to ref that game.

do you think the head ref would have let them both umpire if he didint think they were capable of it.

Im sick of everyone talking shit about theres not enough umpires stop coming on here and bitching and go pick up a whistle and do something about it.

Reply #139174 | Report this post


Jack Spratt  
Years ago

Try to look past the green shirt.

One if not both of them may have had more experiance than you give them credit for.

If your game was only attended by 1 green shirt and no one else then you may have cause to complain.

Reply #139187 | Report this post


who me: so greenshirts are not really learners when they are nearly finished their instruction and they wear the green shirts only as a fashion statement.
Do I think the UIC would let green shirts ref together?
Happens most nights cept they've borrowed grey ones.

Reply #139188 | Report this post


Wraith  
Years ago

If they are in traing then they are in training, simple as that! if they were qualified to do the job then they would be wearing the grey shirt. people are paying money and have the right to get what they pay for. they pay to have qualified refereeing for their level of basketball. if you regarded this attitude to other situations "who me" you have no backing to your argument. are learner drivers allowed to drive by themselves just because they seemable can drive... no, they have to complete all of their training. do people get put into jobs without having the proper qualifications first... no, they complete thier degree or otherwise or perform under strict guidence and are overseen by more professionally qualified individuals.

Reply #139189 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Thats funny wraith, because in the first post, didnt they say this is exactly what happened...2 green shirts reffed and were supervised by a green shirt?

And they let 2 green shirts ref ABL...look at the Woodville vs Southern game....Varga Zhare and Daniel Haebich..2 green shirt refs wearing grey!!

Reply #139192 | Report this post


J Packer  
Years ago

(Mod: This forum is not the place for that sort of comment.)

Reply #139222 | Report this post


Wraith  
Years ago

before you make comments anon... learn to read the posting properly.

Reply #139232 | Report this post


Experience  
Years ago

How come those two officials were doing a mens game together without a senior official?

Maybe because it was woodville v southern

maybe the two green shirts were together because it was a centrals v torrens valley junior game

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afroman jnr  
Years ago

you cannot suddenly go off a green shirt, until you have complete the level 1 course and been evaluated on games.

yes some young refs are capable but they have to wait a long time to be able to do the level 1 course. i am currently waiting for a level 1 course, the next one is only in october and the last one was in april. bringing up another point there needs to be more courses.

More courses = more capable grey shirt refs

Reply #139260 | Report this post


DaddyO  
Years ago

I thought the green shirt was only to give an inexperienced ref protection from "advice" from coaches rather than indicate a qualification level? So a confident Level 0 ref could wear a prison bar top.

I know the use of green tops varies greatly - at some stadiums it seems to be the only one used.

Reply #139264 | Report this post


Thread Starter  
Years ago

So, J Packer, if, as you say, the social and district comps are run separately, I ask why are there more qualified refs for social games than district. The person on the desk told me that all umps that night were appointed by BSA (maybe he just meant the district ones).

It is my opinion that both refs weren't nearly finished their green shirt training.

Who me, unfortunately, I, like many others do not have time to take up umpiring. My job these days is more in the form of a chauffeur!

Wraith. My point exactly. We pay money (and lots of it!) so we should have qualified refs umpiring games. I do not have a problem with one green shirt but as earlier stated two is unfair. And they should be careful who the supervising umpire is.

Reply #139311 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

*yawn* yet again some toss pot who wants to whine about the problem, but will always find an excuse not to be part of the solution.

typical for district wanna be's!

Reply #139313 | Report this post


Maybe if refs weren't a protected species and could take fair criticism, as players do week in week out, they might improve. They have a 'Im tellin mommy mentality' and its indulged.
In a nutshell:
Green shirts are a great idea.
Green shirts reffing unassisted by an experienced ref equals disaster.
Refs doing games with players much older than them-unhelpful and a recipe for problems.

UIC is a job that requires knowledge, experience and a wider understanding of both personalities and situations as basics tools for successs. Maybe we need to pay more to get a better calibre of UIC and then these better managers may be able to display a greater understanding of what scheduled games need and deserve in experience needed to control them and the way they are handled.
Players get demoted for playing badly. Refs need to have the same
system where coaches rate their performance and the coaching director reviews their performance. This might draw attention to patterns of umpiring that often cause concerns at certain stadiums. At the moment no matter how bad a ref is he or she will get a walk up start every week because of shortages and that can't be good for basketball.
Silencing people on refs simply drives the feelings underground.

Reply #139340 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Fine

Lets see the refs start coming on here talking about players and coaches then...see how long before one of you wanna be's starts bitching about refs commenting on you!

grow up, pick up a whistle, or get a case of shut the f**k up into you

Reply #139342 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

#342.

They do it all the time so ur point is.

Reply #139352 | Report this post


Wraith  
Years ago

my money is that mister "get a case of shut the f**k into you" is one of those refs that he so lovingly protects... how hypocritical of the lil fella. you'll be alright son, mommy will be there to hold you again one day!

Reply #139497 | Report this post


wateva  
Years ago

How often is genuine constructive criticism given to a referee. Most of the communication that was stopped by the green shirts was abuse. That would not be accepted if it were directed to a coach by a referee.
Coaches are naturally biased towards the team they are coaching for and as such most (not all) coaches are not suitable to give a credible rating to a referee's performance.
As always if you like to keep going about the lack of referees then why don't YOU do something about it. Like picking up a whistle and become a referee. If you can't make the time to do that then how bout you stop complaining about the lack of numbers and get on with your already busy life.

Reply #139505 | Report this post


Wraith  
Years ago

becoming a referee is not like joing a club to play basketball. being a referee of any sport is a Job, plain and simple. for a job you get paid and the better yuo become the more money you get until you reach the top. it can be said quite simply, by anybody who has a job, that if they do it worng then they can expect to be repremanded by those around them to a certain extent. if i were to fail to do my job properly then it would be understandable that my collegues and those whom i work for or with in any fashion, would become hostile toward my lack of effort or ability and hence i would be fired. if the case may be that i was performing but others were just becoming abusive by no fault of my own, it then becomes time to face it like an adult and continue or move on. referees, young or old need to understand that whilst it is hard to have a game without them, they are not by anymeans the centre of that game, it does not revolve around them. they are there simply to do a job and do it properly.

Reply #139517 | Report this post


Thread Starter  
Years ago

My original post was not made to have a go at umpires - particularly those that have just taken up the role. It was aimed more at the organisation of this sport.

I am involved in basketball as a consumer. Unfortunately I do not have the usual consumer rights (i.e. if you don't like the product shop elsewhere) due to my sons love of the game. As a consumer it is not my part to fix (i.e. pick up a whistle) anything I see as being wrong with the game. The best I can do is bring it to the attention of those who "administer" the sport which is what I have done.

Reply #139522 | Report this post


Benq  
Years ago

Go listen to the radio while your son plays. Your son is the one playing the game - so I'd guess he's the real consumer here. He wouldn't know any better and would still love the game just as much if there were two D grade refs or two A grade refs on his game. (Yes, I realise they aren't real gradings - but it makes more sense to those who don't know.)

Reply #139527 | Report this post


Thread Starter  
Years ago

Benq,

My son would know better - he made comment about the quality of the umpiring during this game. He's also an umpire so is aware of what they should be doing.

He's also not the consumer: umpiring doesn't pay enough for him to fork out the ,000's it costs to play!!

Reply #139532 | Report this post


afroman jnr  
Years ago

people who are refs do know about how the game should be ref'd. but u cant say or do anything about it.
refereeing should be the same as playing, you dont prefer you get 'rested' the next week until the uic thinks they are ready to ref that level again, yes this is hard due to ref's but really it has to be done, other wise these refs arnt going to get much better, becuase they think we are doing a good job lets keep doing this.

some refs have to learn the game is not about them, it is about the players and spectators. when u dont notice refs that is when they are the best because you dont complain during or after the game

Reply #139555 | Report this post


afroman jnr  
Years ago

error before; you dont perform, not prefer

Reply #139556 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

actually wraith, I havent reffed in several years.

i'm also probably old enough to have slept with your mummy, so dont make assumptions!

Reply #139557 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

actually wraith, from an insurance, workcover, and taxation point of view (and the paltry income) reffing is NOT a job, unless you get to ABl/NBL levels....

it's legally classed as a hobby.

even maccas and hungry jacks tent to pay over $10 per hour these days....reffing doesnt!

Reply #139564 | Report this post


Graeme LeBroy  
Years ago

Wraith - Please don't refer to refereeing as a 'JOB'. It is a hobby at all levels as I believe all adult referees have to work and referee on the side, including national panel referees.
If it were a Job, I wouldn't need to have a job now would I...? Somehow I don't think I could live off a refereeing wage alone.

Reply #139584 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

If you get paid for it, it's a "job".

Reply #139598 | Report this post


wateva  
Years ago

So by that token if you get paid to play are you at work or playing sport. Does that make you a consumer or a provider.

So "thread starter" you think that it doesn't cost anything to ref. Ok no probs, I mean it's not like refs have to pay rego, buy their own uniforms, rule books, shoes, whitsles etc and pay for the petrol required to get them to the games.

"Wraith" if you are abused at work by fellow employees you can report them for harrasment. If you are abused by a customer your are not required to provide service to them and can request that they leave the premises before you call the police.

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Libertine  
Years ago

#598, not neccesarily. Isn't refeering deemed a 'hobby income' and not taxable?

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J Packer  
Years ago

If ref's actually purchased rule books and read them would we be actually having this conversation. NO!!!!!!!

Reply #139666 | Report this post


afroman jnr  
Years ago

j packer its not that simple you cant just read it, and then call it on the court. you have to look at all the angles, you have to read the advantage or disadvantage for the offense. its really not that simple.

yer, you do have to pay for unfirom and regestration, but those costs are covered after a couple of weeks or so, with the money you earn refereeing

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Thread Starter  
Years ago

Whateva,

Don't think I said it doesn't cost anything to ref.

Reply #139731 | Report this post


Wraith  
Years ago

not a job??? by the government taxation system it is not considered a job unless you are of a certain level and earning a certain amount. nonetheless, any materials needed (akin to anylisted "job") you can claim back through tax!!! so just cos the government doesnt take half of your pay doesnt make it any less of a job... you get paid to do something that provides an income... its a JOB!

Reply #139745 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

umm wrong

if your not declaring the income, you cant claim back any expenses.

accounting 101 - dont worry wraith, you will learn it when you get to year 8

Reply #139749 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

It has to be a job because everyone says they're doing a lousy job!

Reply #139752 | Report this post


Nathan Durant  
Years ago

J Packer - I haven't read a rule book! I have only read a couple of passages in it to be honest, so I don't think refereeing is as easy as "just reading a rule book."
Have you read a rule book? Or do you just complain after something happens against your team while not knowing the rules of the game yourself?
I think it would be interesting if you got yourself a whistle and a grey shirt and got out onto a court... I'd be there for sure to witness that. Especially since some of your previous posts are a little anti-referee.
Good work to all referees in training (especially kiddies) and continue to improve your game no matter how hard some people make it for you!!!

Reply #139756 | Report this post


Wraith  
Years ago

anon:
"as a financially ept organisation (that is BSA - and FYI a financially ept organisation is one that produces an income, whether that be profit or loss), all monetary loss assumed under that organisation can be renounced as a taxable loss to an employee of whom is both taxable or not taxable as an individual" Appendix 8 - ATO financial statement ammendments; Auditor General

Also people, age and mum jokes... are you serious. grow up and at least pretend to be adults!

Reply #140118 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Yes i hate people who assume that just becuase they are older or have been in the basketball industry for a long time that they have the right to point out everything mistake they think the ref has made.
ive seen this happen to greens and how much confidence they have lost; if u want good umpires, dont limit their potential.
anyway back to the moral off the post
im sure the refs were competant enough for the job ; i wore my green even though i was a 1 because i my grey hadn't arrived
...btw just because there wearing stripes, it doesnt mean they are above lvl 0, that is the uniform for all social- regardless of their level

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