Beantown
Years ago

How did two rookies of the year escape the Sixers?

I know some of you on this board might have difficulty commenting due to player/ club connections, but I would love to know what went wrong about the middle of this decade, when the Sixers somehow overlooked both Newley and Ingles for their team?

Was it just that the coaching staff didn't rate them? Or did they both want more money than the Sixers were willing to pay for a rookie?

Understand, I don't want more innuendo and guesswork. I've heard all that before. Basically, if you aren't very sure what you are saying is correct, don't bother commenting! I don't need snipers or people pushing their own agenda.

Just hoping that enough water has passed under the bridge by now (with new owners) to get some factual answers?

Outside of financial troubles, not signing those guys is the reason the Sixers have been abysmal for half a decade right there. Instead of moping about clutching our wooden spoon, we could well have been celebrating at least one championship in the past few years!

Alright, fire away! :D

Topic #22362 | Report this topic


KingJames  
Years ago

Beantown you haven't read all the other stories about this?

Newley didn't get along with Smyth so didn't inquire to come play for us while his dad or mum was involved with something to do with Townsville or something similar to that. Smyth showed little to no interest in him also from what I gather.

Ingles - Smyth was going to give him the 11th position on the team and he would see no minutes. The club also spelt his name wrong when inquiring about him so basically they didn't see much potential in him. I still can't see the Logic. Ng was in the team and he did alright at state team level but didn't dominate while Ingles at 3 inches taller dominated at state team level and was similar to Newley. It wouldn't take a rocket science to work out he was going to be something special.

Reply #268341 | Report this post


Isaac  
Years ago

Newley wasn't really rated by Smyth. He was strongly courted by Townsville who gave him a lot of interest and attention, gave him a real pathway to minutes, all the things that convince a rookie to sign, etc. Stacker visiting Newley in hospital and all that.

Ingles was offered the minimum, a spot in the 11 or 13. Then the office spelled his surname incorrectly and at one point I think someone in there assumed he was a centre because he was tall. This went down while interim/caretaker Daws was in charge which would likely explain the surname/position mistakes since he came more from a tennis background originally (I thought Daws was a great guy, but those are a couple of mistakes that would hardly give Ingles faith in the club). The Dragons, meanwhile, offered him the rookie max and for him to even live at Cowan's place (which, I think has an indoor half-court!). At one point, Breheny said in the media that the club had offered Ingles the max, but there must've been confusion somewhere (e.g., offered one year max of $40k or whatever for a two-year contract) because the Adelaide offer was considered the worst, or close to it, of all club offers at the time and I was told by someone involved with it first-hand that the Adelaide offer was not the max.

Been a while, but I think those were the key points. In the end, hardly inspires confidence, but both players were out of the NBL pretty quickly. When I first read your topic title, I thought you were going to ask about Wagstaff and Coenraad - two guys likely to play a bit longer in the NBL and who were quality contributors in their rookie seasons. I know their positions duplicate a little of Ballinger and Holmes (both signed earlyish in the piece), but I would be interested to know if either were on the radar for the current crew.

Reply #268344 | Report this post


Beantown  
Years ago

Thanks KingJames. I haven't been around on this board that long really, so I missed all the earlier conversations. Generally have heard lots of veiled references about why both were overlooked, but nothing that was clear.

Disappointing if it just came down to the club not really rating either. I was expecting it to have been about money, since the club has struggled for a long time now. Since you're saying its not, gotta be two of the dumbest personnel decisions ever!

Reply #268345 | Report this post


Beantown  
Years ago

Thanks Isaac. Amazing to think that Smyth didn't rate Newley. Perhaps he'd gotten a little too comfortable with his success at the time and tended to under-rate Newley compared to the finished products he was used to in Maher, Mee and Farley?

The Ingles episode beggars belief. I can't believe they could consider Ingles a 10th or 11th player on that roster. Ng is okay, but he'll never be in the same ball park as Ingles.

Wagstaff or Coenraad? Maybe, haven't seen enough of Wagstaff and have not seen Coenraad at all. I like the look of Damian Martin, Steve Weigh and Chris Goulding though. One of them would be a nice addition to next seasons roster!

Reply #268348 | Report this post


Rhythm Willie  
Years ago

Same thing might happen with Ben Madgen, largely responsible for the last Mavs ABA Title before his record breaking college career at Augusta State Uni. If the 36'ers don't give him a good $ contract, they are mad.

A 6'4"guard who can actually shoot the ball, the skill largely lacking in the 36'ers team this year.

His college credentials are better than Worthington's were.

Reply #268361 | Report this post


KingJames  
Years ago

I haven't seen Ben Madgen play but isn't he more of a 6'4" power forward? Also Augusta State Uni is div 2 or a div 3 college? I'm sure he is a good player but not necessarily NBL standard from my understanding

Reply #268380 | Report this post


LC  
Years ago

Madgen is definitely NBL standard don't be mistaken by the fact he plays Div 2 college ball.

Metro State is one of the best Div 2 basketball schools and has a history of producing good players. And as Willie pointed out, his record at Metro State is better than Worthington's was...


Reply #268388 | Report this post


Isaac  
Years ago

Bean, perhaps Smyth expectations of young talent had been a bit moderated by guys like Williams, etc and the slowish progress of Forman and, to a lesser extent, Holmes?

KJ, haven't seen him play since ABL days, but he was a SG/SF then I think.

Reply #268395 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

I was surprised that Darren Ng had played 150 games. He is hardly a rookie any more but I don't believe his output for his level of experience and to be honest where he will end up in the game warrants a spot on the 36ers roster. I think these type of spots should be made available for some-one who has longer term potential. Sure Darren is a great shooter but his career and last season output of about 8 points per game his hardly remarkable given his shooting skills.

Let's look to the longer term future, be less emotional by saying we must keep "xyz" coz he is SA and been with us for so long - just stand back and be objective rather than emotional about who to keep. Blighty did it with the Crows and look what happened.

Reply #268406 | Report this post


Isaac  
Years ago

8.6 PPG coming mostly of the bench is fine, plus he was 46% from long-range and 80% from the line. As a role-playing scorer off the bench presumably on a budget, he's fine IMO. I don't think he's been earmarked as a "sky's the limit" player. Consider him alongside similar guys like Corletto, Martin, etc.

Reply #268416 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Well I guess we can agree to disagree Isaac. You mention off the bench but I think he still averaged 22 mins a game. For that much court time and with his game based on his shooting skills IMO we need more output.

Reply #268417 | Report this post


XY  
Years ago

At NBL level Ng is a spot up shooter who cannot really create his own shot. Would be excellent value off of the bench for a team that gets open looks for players with their feet set. The team this year did not do that. He would be a 15ppg player in similar minutes in a system that finds open looks for three point shooters.

Reply #268418 | Report this post


Achtung Baby  
Years ago

LC - Ben Madgen plays for Augusta State, not Metro State. And he is the all time Peach Belt scoring leader. His stats in his final year -


As for Rhythm Willie's comments "Largely responsible for the last Mavs ABA Title " that is actually quite false. Ben Madgen was only an U18 at the time, and sat at the end of the bench for the season. It wasn't until a short lived stint in country football in his hometown that led to a shoulder reconstruction, where after he became the dominant ABA and now college player he is. I Believe around 05, 06 that was.

Would definitely be a quality bench player to start his career, but has the tools to be a top player.

Reply #268422 | Report this post


Achtung Baby  
Years ago

Edit - Stats in 09/10 season at Augusta State so far:

18.4ppg, 4.6rpg, 2.2apg, 47 FG%, 86 FT%, 46 3PT%.

SG

Reply #268424 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

XY I accept that - it is a good point. So do we develop a game plan then get the players for that plan or do we pick players and work around their strengths and weaknesses. Obviously there are some limitations as to how much you can change your playing personnel but if I use the Blighty analogy - he had a game plan based on skills and consistency of execution. Players not fitting that mold were let go.

Reply #268427 | Report this post


Isaac  
Years ago

XY, 15 PPG is pretty optimistic in a 40 minute game. To help you get the picture, only eight players in the NBL* scored at 15 PPG or better this year and Adelaide and Melbourne were the only two teams with two players above 15 PPG (Ballinger, Gilchrist, Wortho, Hodge).

Only 24* players scored in double figures. That's an average of three per team and you'd exclude Joiner (only two games) and only 2-3 were coming off the bench to do it (Johnson, Williamson, sometimes Ubaka).

* Ignore this for a bit - was going by Pro-Stats who seem to be missing the entire Breakers roster. I imagine that Penney and Bruton would be over 15 PPG and Rickert and Ronaldson around the double-figure mark.

8.6 PPG off the bench at a good clip when better offense could find him open more often. I wouldn't be throwing that out in a hurry.

Anon, I think you need to factor in other things in your consideration: salary (doubt he's that expensive), points cap (he's a six; someone like Williamson is a seven), and the challenge of recruiting a replacement. Let's say you'd rather someone like Jones, Williamson, Weigh, Goulding, etc instead. They don't have a house and family here. They'd need to be paid a premium to get them out of their current spot and to have them move. Jones is the only one on that list who wouldn't be in demand by his own club, and that's assuming Cairns don't stay in the league. Those other guys would be highly coveted and their current clubs would be clinging to them.

The only reason you'd want to rush away from Ng is if you had someone lined up who had a greater ceiling, was initially cheaper and could save you points under the cap. e.g., someone like Ben Madgen. But not for a BJ Carter, not for a bidding war over a free agent, not to gamble on another role-player, and not just to see what else is out there. Maybe keep an eye out and don't rush to re-sign him immediately just in case, but I wouldn't be telling him 'no thanks' either.

Reply #268428 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

I was really looking at freeing up the spot for a younger player who has more upside. After 150 games my mindset was "have we seen the best or can we see much upside" That is all - nothing personal against Darren just wanted us to think more with our heads rather than our hearts!!

Reply #268448 | Report this post


Isaac  
Years ago

No doubt that I like Darren and hope to see him always succeed, but I think my reasoning shows I am thinking with my head regardless. I wonder if you're being a bit hopeful, that's all. I wouldn't free up a spot unless there was someone to take it. I don't think Burdon has a greater upside and I can't think of anyone on the local scene (in ABL, not college) who'd suit.

Holmes is in the same situation. In what's almost quickly returning to be a player's market (and will definitely be so if the league grows beyond eight teams), you have to have a plan to avoid getting stuck in a bidding war or fighting for the last few players left unemployed.

Reply #268467 | Report this post


Who Me!  
Years ago

Hopefully we will see the 36ers Coaches at the U20 nationals next week at Starplex.

I don't recall seeing the previous regime too often at past Championships (u18 or u20) whereas most other Clubs were represented (even Port & the Crows)

Reply #268476 | Report this post


A  
Years ago

Isaac, if you take away the couple of big scoring games NG had this season, his average would be more around 4-6 points a game, that's pretty poor considering everyone posting on this forum believes he is a must for next season.

But I do believe if he was more aggressive/assertive with his shot/game, he could easily average 15+ in this league.

Reply #268515 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

I would give Burdon a go personally - i don't think we will lose anything and it is worth the risk on the upside IMO

Reply #268523 | Report this post


Rhythm Willie  
Years ago

AB you were right about Ben Madgen, got my years mixed up, his shoulder was popping out around 2004, even with the shoulder he topped scored in for an underated Faith School that won the final of the State Schools comp.

Reply #268555 | Report this post


XY  
Years ago

Isaac, I accept 15 ppg might be aiming high for a spot up shooter in a 40 minute game, I was still thinking 48 mins. But 12-13 ppg and third highest scorer on the team would be about right for Ng in the right system.

BJ Carter is the perfect example of what I was talking about, and not a bad comparison for Ng. Got tons of wide open looks in the Goorjian 3-point oriented offence, and was a sweet shooter and good role player.

I haven't looked at the stats, but I get the impression that the Sixers were the worst three point shooting team this season, both in attempts made and attempts converted. I seem to recall a number of games where we only put up a handful of three pointers all game. But Isaac and that stats will probably prove me wrong!

Reply #268580 | Report this post


Isaac  
Years ago

Just noticed that Cairns players are missing from those Pro-Stats rankings too.

Ng shouldn't really be your third scorer when there are two imports and Ballinger in the team. Plus another two guys starting ahead of him.

Third best scorers from teams this season:
Burston, 9.9 PPG
Crawford, 10.4 PPG
Maxey, 13.9 PPG
Campbell, 11.0 PPG
Weigh, 10.6 PPG
Rickert, 10-11ish I'd guess
Kendall, 12.3 PPG (or Johnson 10.6 PPG if you want to exclude Kendall)
Melzer, around 10-11ish PPG

Coming off the bench as a role-playing shooter, 8-10 PPG for Ng is alright and would obviously lift a bit if they got more from him. Of course, if an import was having a greater impact, Ng might get fewer minutes also.

Reply #268583 | Report this post




 

Reply to this topic

Random name suggestion for anonymous posters: Europa 81

Rules:You must read the Terms of Use. No spam, no offensive material, no sniping at other clubs, no 'who cares?'-type comments, no naming or bashing under 18 players. Learn how to embed YouTube videos or tweets

Please proof-read your post before submitting as you will not be able to edit it afterwards.



Close ads
Dunk.com.au - Custom basketball uniforms
Beam Orders - a quick, simple order and payments site for your business.
Punch - insightful time tracking

Advertise on Hoops to a very focused, local and sports-keen audience. Email for rates and options.

Recent Posts



Invoicing clients? Stay productive with Punch, the insightful time tracker that earns you more.

Special offer: $30/month Pay $100 for lifetime access. Sign up now!

.


An Australian basketball forum covering NBL, WNBL, ABL, Juniors plus NBA, WNBA, NZ, Europe, etc | Forum time is: 5:58 pm, Wed 21 Oct 2020 | Posts: 846,842 | Last 7 days: 483