Jack Toft
Years ago

To zone or not to zone?

It seems we can't have a sensible thread on any subject relating to juniors without it deteriorating into a debate on zoning.

The sport of basketball is perhaps the only sport that does not zone juniors in this sleepy little haven (aka Adelaide) Football and Cricket has clear zones that are published and a promising junior cricketer living in any suburb knows they play for their district team. You wouldn't get a cricketer living in St Peters play for Sturt, and you wouldn't get a Daw Park biy playing for Kensington.

To me, zoning is sensible and it means that parents don't travel as much, kids play with their friends and the clubs are better able to develop local competitions. The argument against zoning appears to revolve around kids being able to chose where they want to play. Obviously, the more popular clubs have the higher appeal and therefore attract more kids for selection.

So, what are the SENSIBLE pros and cons for Zoning?

Topic #22986 | Report this topic


Anonymous  
Years ago

ZONING RULES FOR PLAYERS
The SANFL has divided South Australia into 9 promotional zones. This ensures that each SANFL club has an even share of the available players in South Australia. It also means that each SANFL club is given sole responsibility for assisting local clubs and schools to promote Australian Rules Football. On the next page is the Metropolitan Zone for the Norwood Football Club.
If a person is under 19 years of age, they are bound to play football for one of 9 SANFL clubs. They are bound by where their mother currently lives. If a family moves address, they are bound to remain at their previous address for 12 months after they move. This means you can not change address and then be able to play for another SANFL club.
This zoning rule only applies to players who are applying to play for an SANFL club from the year they turn 15 until the year they are 19. A player can not play SANFL U17 football or above until the year they turn 15, unless a permit is granted by the SANFL.
There are several options for a player who wants to play for a club for which he is not zoned.
1. The out of zone club pays the players zoned club $5,000. There are also incremental payments of $4,000 on the players first league game and $3,000 on their 10th and 25th games.
2. The out of zone club organises a player transfer with the zoned club for a player of like ability.
3. The father of the out of zone player has played one or more League games for that out of zone club, the player is then free to play at the out of zone club.
A player is able to train and play in the Under13 and 14 Development Squad teams for any club. At the end of the Under 15 program, no one out of zone players can be chosen to play in the final squad of 25 in the Under 15 Championships.
It is recommended that all players train and play with their zoned club from the outset of the elite program.
AFL TRANSFER FEES
Affiliated League and Association Clubs shall be entitled to receive compensation for the loss of services of registered players under the following conditions.
1. Upon playing 30 League games for an SANFL Club, the Club shall receive from the SANFL Club $2,000.
The player must have:
?? Played not less than 20 games for their local Club from January 1 in the year they turned 13 until December 31 in the year they turn 19 years of age. In effect they have 7 years to play those games.
?? Played those 25 League games in a 3 year period from the time they played their first League game.
2. Upon being drafted by an AFL Club, the Club, League and Zone shall receive the following.
?? 25% of all fees allocated to the SANFL Club (25% of $25,000 on drafting, 25% of $10,000 on the drafted players tenth AFL game and 25% of $10,000 on second year listing).
?? This is normally broken up in the following manner - a minimum of 40% to the Club, 30% to the League (eg NEMJFA) and 30% to the Zone (eg Amateur League). So if a player plays 10 AFL games, his club will receive $4500, NEMJFA and Amateur League get $3375 each.

Reply #277513 | Report this post


Ranga  
Years ago

I am actually for it, however I cant see clubs like Sturt and Forestville allowing it to go through.

And if it was to go through I think there would be a few forced mergers of Sturt and South, West and Woodville.

But at the same time if you were at a club where u had a player (parent) / coach conflict it wakes it unfair for the player to leave. And therefore just walk away from the game.

Reply #277514 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Why would clubs spend big bucks on developing local associations, employing fulltime development officers and resources only to see those players easily walk out the door. At least football protects the investments that these clubs make into their players. I think some kind of transfer fee needs to be seriously looked at for players that play out of zone.

Reply #277516 | Report this post


Messenger 16  
Years ago

And that's the big reason why it will not happen (and why it shouldn't happen). Basketball doesn't have the resources to make it work. Development standard disparity will see kids leave the sport if they can't transfer and the sport will collapse. If clubs had 5 paid DO's each you might have a point but less than half have only one.

Reply #277518 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

But it could be relative. SANFL clubs do spend big bucks on junior development that the transfer fees of $1000s. ONly players with serious high level potential transfer. Basketball, which invests a lot less on junior development, could levy a few $100. That way they get something back for their investment in developing their juniors.

Reply #277520 | Report this post


Messenger 16  
Years ago

It's not as simple as transfer fees. SANFL spend big bucks so the difference in the standard of development programs between the clubs is not as great as basketball where there are light years between top and bottom. That's what will drive kids from the sport if they forced into bad coaching and have no alternative.

Reply #277521 | Report this post


Purist  
Years ago

Cons

1/ Basketball does not have local association competitions like football. SANFL clubs only have 1 junior team. So recruitment and development really happens atassociation level. In basketball clubs do all the work.

2/ Positioning of clubs and the inability to have it equal. What happens when the weaker clubs can't get kids to move too them? If they don't work in their area because they don't have a development officer becasue basketball doesn't have the sponsorship levels football have.

3/ Basketbll is not exactly knocking kids back like football. SANFL clubs have 3 teams and a couple of development squads where their income and marketing comes down from the AFL. Basketball doesn't even have free to air tv deal.

Reply #277522 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Jack, zoning won't make kids play with their friends, it will make them play with other kids that live in their area. This may or may not be with their frineds, depending on which school they go to.

I dont think that it will reduce travel as kids will still play away games at stadiums on the other side of town. It may reduce the travel made to trainings however, that is a choice each individual makes when choosing a club.

You mentioned that it will give clubs a better opportunity to develop local competitions however i dont think we have enough kids playing in Adelaide at the moment for this to occur. Due to this it may result in the need for clubs like woodville and Magic to merge as mentioned before.

Reply #277523 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Cons

1/ Basketball does not have local association competitions like football. SANFL clubs only have 1 junior team. So recruitment and development really happens atassociation level. In basketball clubs do all the work.

- Exactly. UNless you zone it is unlikely basketball will develop thriving local associations.

2/ Positioning of clubs and the inability to have it equal. What happens when the weaker clubs can't get kids to move too them? If they don't work in their area because they don't have a development officer becasue basketball doesn't have the sponsorship levels football have.

- Then those clubs could pay a small transfer fee.

3/ Basketbll is not exactly knocking kids back like football. SANFL clubs have 3 teams and a couple of development squads where their income and marketing comes down from the AFL. Basketball doesn't even have free to air tv deal.

- Basketball at Div 1/2 level has 17 spots. Kids miss out on these spots all the time.

- Make theclub's develop associations, make them affiliate all players in thier association and then the marketing money will be available and BSA/BA will have a commercial interest in developing/growing the sport as players are all affiliated.

- Basketball does now have a free to air TV deal, but I'm not sure what that has to do with it.

- It's time to start developing basketball and the develpment players as commercial/professional enterprise or service. The environment needs to be right though.




Reply #277525 | Report this post


hereschenes  
Years ago

Oh... I was looking forward to a nuanced discussion on the merits of zone vs. man defence. As you were!

Reply #277529 | Report this post


Purist  
Years ago

How will zoning help develop domestic competitions.

Clubs don't have the money to employ people becasue they spend it on their senior teams. That isn't going to change.

If clubs don't have a development officer, who are they going to develop competitions and recruit players in the "area". How can you make clubs develop competitions when they are run by volunteers?

How will making competitions affiliate lead to marketing money?

AFL has a multi-million dollar tv deal. THey use that money to pay people to run Auskick and give some back to clubs to run devlopment officers for both metro and country reigons. Basketball does not have that pool of money to get started. SO it needs clubs to do it by themselves by re-allocating its resources into juniors.

Until all clubs have domestic comeptitions up and running it wouldn't work. If all clubs had domestic competitions up and running it wouldn't be necessary.

Reply #277530 | Report this post


The Banker  
Years ago

People are forgetting one major difference between BSA and SANFL.

In basketball, anyone can contact a club and say my kids wants to play for you guys then they start training and then they play

In SANFL, It is a more elite level of football where u get invited to play for 1 of the SANFL clubs which every one u are zoned to. and thats why zones work so well because only the best footballs are playing not everyone and anyone who wants too.

If you go and look into the footy leagues below the SANFL like the Adelaide Hills football league and the players who play in each club dont belong to the town in which they are playing in just like BSA and it works succesfully some clubs are stronger then others

Reply #277534 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Well you could get clubs to setup domestic comps by saying if you do and you have a certain level of affiliation (IE Contributing x $$ plus talent pools to the sport) you can be give a "zone".

Otherwise why would you invest the money, time and energy to establish an association?

Reply #277535 | Report this post


There seems to be an amazing amount of talk around levelling out the district competition in this state by zoning areas.

People, unfortunately most of you have missed the point by assuming players leave clubs because coaches poach. Players and their parents invest a lot of time and money into basketball so can you really blame them if they seek better coaching and tutelage?

I certainly would not want my child taught by someone who really has no idea about the game.

Facts are facts people. Why do people consistently blame other clubs and other people and other factors for their clear lack of commitment to the cause. If you are so passionate for a level playing field and I TOTALLY agree that we need other clubs to start producing better basketball players, then why don't you focus your energy on having your club employ a full time JDO or Basketball Manager?

It’s not Sturt, Forestville or Norwood’s fault that most other clubs consistently produce average basketballers. It’s not their fault that other clubs put absolutely no emphasis on training and developing young coaches to train and develop young players?
Are you really that blinded by some type of unfounded hatred for successful clubs that you believe zoning will fix your problems? Get a grip on reality and start hiring the right people. Star t putting the right people in place to make the right decisions. Who is leading these clubs? What do they know about building a successful basketball program? By the looks of it, the leaders of the 'other’ clubs (and let’s be honest, it’s not hard to figure out who they are) do not have the understanding or commitment to build a successful basketball program. Why keep making the same decisions and getting the same results year after year and blame others year after year when it is quite obvious that the outcome reflects poor decision making?

District basketball (Div 1 and 2) is an elite level competition for junior in this state. It is a pathway for elite juniors to progress through to SASI, State basketball and maybe higher. It is not an equal opportunity competition where kids can turn up and have fun with their mates and shoot hoops.
It is a shame most of the clubs take it as their god given right to enter a team in this elite competition. It’s embarrassing actually, that most clubs allow certain people to coach then wonder why talented individuals and their families choose to seek out quality coaching.

Do you work for an unsuccessful company? Would you work for a manager that had absolutely no idea how to manage that particular function? If you do, then what I have said will make no sense to you at all. If you do, you probably blame other people for the misgivings in your life as well.

Get off your arse and do something about the situation your club is in. Ask successful people for their advice, their assistance, tap into their networks and for gods sake, develop your coaches before it’s too late! There are very good coaches out there that are willing (some would say silly enough) to impart their knowledge on a wider scale if you asked.

Stop BLAMING others for your misgivings and do something about it and please stop your pathetic whinging. It’s your fault good players either quite or leave your club, not ANYONE else’s!

Reply #277554 | Report this post


Juno83  
Years ago

'If you are serious then'
A voice of reason - and amen to everything you say!

It is downright hypocritical and sad that some clubs think they "own" their juniors no matter what they are presenting on their side of the unwritten 'blind loyalty' contract they seem to expect.

Reply #277566 | Report this post


Purist  
Years ago

Because if they set up an association and had stacks of kids in it they would be able to pay a full time DO to look after it and most of the kids would flow into their club. That would mean they have a good chance of having successful teams and rather than lose players ,they might gain them.

Reply #277569 | Report this post


Jack Toft  
Years ago

OK,
So it seems that the common thread is COACHING.

If zoning is not going to solve problems and be the answer that many seem to think, perhaps the question is how does the governing body (BSA) ensure that the coaching level at clubs in the league is adequate? Do they really care?

We hear time and time again, Club X attracts players because of the coaches there and they are better than Club Y. My kid stopped playing because ....

A competent governing body of a sport should be seeking to promote the growth and maintain the health of the sport under its control by resolving issues. A governing body can't fight bushfires, but they can provide resources to members who don't have the resources themselves. Sounds like coaching standards are a hot issue an some clubs have the resources, some don't.

So if that is the case, then what resources do BSA have for clubs to develop coaches? and, how can they ensure the effective delivery and distribution of those resources to those in need?

Reply #277572 | Report this post


Shotclock  
Years ago

If a struggling club wants a really good coach ,how do they entice him/her?Use nice manners?When can they keep coughing up for a JDO when the players are late paying fees ?It will come down to some sort of gratuity.Some areas of Adelaide have per capita a higher IQ,GDP,property value,employment levels,income levels,colleges and facilities,lower crime rates.This is the Time Bomb for a couple of clubs outside of there.
Some times a team 'can' perform outstandingly but the rest of the club struggles to lift with their personnel.
Two to three clubs could do with a spiffy new stadium that can attract all the kids to the lights out the front(Dont go to Hillcrest if you are unsteady or frail) .Using the SANFL as an example , they all have facilities built up in the 60's and 70's when cricket and football developed with the rush of baby boomer kids.Basketball didnt hit the heights in those era's.Big town money isnt there for BASA.BASA is equivalent to the district competition of Footy(in SA).
I read and take in all the other posts as I havnt been into this sport a long time but feel some new roofs will encourage better resourcefulness in the suggestions some of you have highlighted.Inside these new roofs provide multiple use type systems the community are always needing .Like Halls and Theatres and function spaces.
Junior basketball has maybe 10-15,000 kids across the State but no Stadiums are renamed for a major sponsor.There are a dozen clubs but no identity around town You cant find a table or column in Saturdays Advertiser.
The Senior Competition doesnt even have huge crowds at their home games.

Reply #277579 | Report this post


Libertine  
Years ago

The two largest (by participation) junior sports in this state do not zone.

Reply #277583 | Report this post


quasi  
Years ago

Totally agree that in the end a successful club comes down to the management of that club and the coaching. Unfortunately it seems that junior basketball in general suffers from a shortage of coaches that really know how to teach kids and maintain an enthusiasm for the game. Maybe like the 3 leading clubs, if other clubs put an emphasis on recruiting and developing junior coaches, they would be more successful? I'm sure that every club has at least some potentially talented juniors, it's just that only certain clubs manage to actually teach them properly and improve their game and their love of the game. If other clubs took a similar interest in their juniors and were less worried about generating their income from junior fees and only supporting the senior teams, maybe they would enjoy some success in juniors as well.

Reply #277585 | Report this post


Triton 15  
Years ago

Ok,i posted the comment on another heading, "2 years on an basically nothing has changed" and got nothing but zoning comments. The basic belief that i have of basketball in SA is that we are happy to tread water, stagnate is probably a harsher view. But this is Adelaide look at the parklands! Dont develope Victoria Park racecourse? Okay! Then let it look like a cow paddock then?
Change in Adelaide appears to be all or nothing no transitional or intermediate viewpoints tolerated. As for zoning Sturt and Forestville would hate this and fight tooth and nail to stop this occuring. But is Basketball here to protect Sturt and Forestvilles monopoly or develop all clubs and competitions irespective of position and power(which varies decade to decade), and an often overlooked view that parents move kids to be with the winners and use the easy excuse of better programme at the winning club.
Evolution involves small changes, piece by piece to get things right, maybe we need to move in a transitional phase to zoning to help the current strong clubs Sturt and Eagles adjust. Maybe having a few clubs in a zoned area to start with. I like Jack Tofts idea of BSA getting involved in a developement programme for coaching standards at all clubs. I see merit in some of shotclocks comments , a new roof and court at Marion and Hillcrest could work wonders at attracting new families to Basketball.
Not all families are in basketball to make SASI squads and think or want to think that Divisions 1&2 are for elite players. The Majority of Australians surely have more modest aspirations for their children and want enjoyment for what is a recreational pursuit, which all sports are.
These are only suggestions for a start, or are we in Adelaide happy in the safety of treading water?

Reply #277588 | Report this post


Shotclock  
Years ago

Thank You Triton 15 please send me your bank account number :)

Reply #277595 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Zoning works so expect the monopolies to fight against it. Heaven forbid that sturt and the like would have to develop talent from a set pool of zoned players other than recruit the best from others. A fair zoning system would expose once and for all the myth that coaching sets clubs apart rather the the truth that the best cattle make the coach.

Reply #277598 | Report this post


It's obvious  
Years ago

Zone it all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
NBA
NBL
AFL
ABL
SEABL
CABL

This is our elite junior competition, not a social comp.
Any athelite should have open opportunity to progress his or her development/opportunity.
I think the answer for all you zone junky's is to completely remove eveything from this competition below div 1 and 2, tell them they are all domestic now, and zone that.

Reply #277605 | Report this post


It's obvious  
Years ago

And didn't we stop double div 1's to prevent Sturt and Forestville getting stronger and to protect the developing Clubs
THAT WORKED
Just like zoning will.

We also introduced bi-laws to stop players changing Clubs
THAT WORKED

The facts are when you place restrictions on Clubs, it is the lower division kids that leave, not the ones the weaker Clubs are after.

There is only one secret of success foe a Elite program.
GOOD COACHES, and when you get them, keep your committee's away from them and hang on to them.

That's waht a CD does

Reply #277606 | Report this post


The Banker  
Years ago

I agree that the level coaches around this state needs to be improved so there is not much difference between the training that is offered at Sturt & Forestville and other clubs like South & West. This sport survives off the back of Volunteers so lets offer some training so they can do a better job in improving the kids basketball skills

I like the idea of scrapping div 3 and below and making that a zoned domestic comp but for the players who a div 1 & 2 quality you cannot stop them from choosing where they want to play and develope their skills

Reply #277618 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Is it just coincidental that the 2 top clubs also have the best facilities and the best oportunity to raise money from their canteens and bars. It may not just be the best couaches that attracts the players, but better facilities, subsidised subs and less fundraising by the parents, that makes the clubs look attractive. All of the clubs have to run a Senior program to stay in the association (BSA rules), which is a huge drain on income. The smaller clubs can't afford to run JDO's, help coaches with travel money, subsidise players subs etc.
I am sure the other clubs would love to have the facilities that Sturt & Forrestiville have. Maybe the money raised from BSA events, that are always held at these stadiums, should be fed back to the poorer clubs that do not have the luxury of these extra fundraising activities. I would be happy to work on these Bars or Canteens during BSA events and have my club get the money.

Reply #277621 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

"I like the idea of scrapping div 3 and below and making that a zoned domestic comp but for the players who a div 1 & 2 quality you cannot stop them from choosing where they want to play and develope their skills". I think you are missing the point somewhat. Like SANFL Clubs, why would Associations invest money and resources in developing domestic competitions, investing money in school development programs to develop elite players. These elite players then just moveon because its just easy for them to do so. These elite players will be the selling points for these associations to recruit players not in our sport and also to encourage to their players to strive for their best. When these players just get up and leave they loose as asset.

I hope the clubs move to associations, I hope BSA makes clubs affiliate and I hope they bring in some kind of zoning. This will mean that clubs take seriously and look at the service of developing players from a commercial point of view.

Reply #277623 | Report this post


Messenger 16  
Years ago

Whenever there is a thread on here about which is the best facility Pasadena is never top, neither is Wayville. It's always the Starplex! That's why every nationals is played out there apparently *sarcasm*. If we were to do it now I bet Morphett Vale would be in the top 2. What about the Dome? Great facility, Woodville used that for years up until recently.

Facilities mean virtually nothing. Norwood were great for years without a home court before Mars. Sturt had a 2 court stadium not unlike Hillcrest and Marion until it burned down in 1998. They didn't have one for 3 years after that. They lost Pasadena for 9 months due to floor issues not long ago. They have been a power all through that time.

The clubs don't own the facilities, BSA does. They play half their games in them and some of their teams train in them on Sundays. The majority of their players train at outside venues. The vast majority of all club's revenue is junior subs, nothing to do with facilities. If club's have a bar or canteen that's gravy not the meat.

Facilities are a factor but a minor one in the whole equation and another excuse made by poorly performing clubs.

Reply #277626 | Report this post


Isaac  
Years ago

These elite players then just moveon because its just easy for them to do so.
They're the customer and it's their choice and option to do that. Why should clubs have any entitlement to particular players by default?

Reply #277628 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Isaac, you are right they are the customer but so are their clubmates at their current club. How much do you think it will cost to develop an elite player? Where do you think this money will come from - legally its called "member's funds"

Why should members funds be invested in player development when these players can just move on impacting the players left behind. Think about it shouldn't those members funds that have been invested be compensated or at least some small hurdle be in place so players think twice about the impacts before just leaving.

Reply #277630 | Report this post


Why is everyone trying to invent new ways of succeeding?

It's funny how you want to reinvent the wheel when the answers are right in front of you. For a club which cannot afford a JDO and who does not have the internal basketball talent, feel free to utilise my IP (please do, if not for your self respect then for the kids who believe you can actually coach!)

1.If you can’t afford a JDO or an experienced Basketball manager, DO NOT PAY YOU ABA TEAM until you can afford it. No one really cares if your ABA team is filled with terrible imports or over priced local talent. Your juniors will play for you for free and they will be better for it
2.Mandate that all coaches acquire a Level 1 coaching qualification and aim to have all Div1 coaches attain a Level 2 coaching course
3. Mandate that all coaches attend a training session once a month (pick a time frame) and have your new JDO run through ball skills, passing, foot work, layups, transition offence and team defence drills to name a few. This will take time to develop this knowledge but eventually it will happen
4.After you games on a Friday night, head back to your bar or if you don’t have a bar (don’t sit there and cry about) head out to Villie’s or heavens forbid, someone’s house, and talk hoops till the cows come home
5.Mandate that your JDO attend training sessions and sit on the bench with younger coaches and act as a mentor
6.If you do have senior coaches in your club, buddy them up with a young aspiring coach to act as a mentor - it works!
7.Borrow coaching literature from the SASI library and educate yourself
8.Stop spooking and make it happen
9.Stop spooking and make it happen
10.Stop spooking and make it happen

Reply #277631 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Why would members agree to employing a Coaching Director when they just end up, in the short term, just spending this money so that the best players go to other district clubs. All they do is develop players for those players to go elsewhere. If they were reimbursed a small amount for those costs wouldnt they take junior development more seriously.

Under the current format would it not (and I dont think this) be a smarter business decision to just invest that junior development money in your senior program and get the players at the other end of the process?

Reply #277633 | Report this post


Nix 90  
Years ago

anon #277628,

does that theroy work for all lvels of business.

If you have your funds invested in a bank. "members funds" are paying for you service. SHould you then be baned from moving to a better bank that provides the service you are looking for because it affects the other members?

If you have insurance, should you not be allowed to move insurance funds because your insurer doesn't have a CEO(JDO) and it effects the product and without yo the other members are worse off.

If you can't understand that the clubs themselves are to blame, we will continue to have issues.

In football, the development of players largely occurs in the private school system which has no restrictions. Move kids come out of the private school system into AFL than kids who don't play for private schools. And their development occurs at these private schools.

Zoning doesn't work. Hence why the SANFL junior teams might not even be as good as the best private school teams.

Reply #277636 | Report this post


Nix 90  
Years ago

anon. If they provide a good service those members will stay, because they are moving for a better service. Thats how the market works.

Reply #277637 | Report this post


BMF  
Years ago

Nice "if you are serious".

Reply #277638 | Report this post


Isaac  
Years ago

Isaac, you are right they are the customer but so are their clubmates at their current club. How much do you think it will cost to develop an elite player? Where do you think this money will come from - legally its called "member's funds"
Those are red herrings. Customer pays fees. Customer gets service. If other customers would rather go to another service provider, they can.

The player/parent is that customer and they are seeking the best service for their needs - balancing proximity, price, product, etc. It won't always be the champion club or the nearest club or the cheapest club but all of those factors can be important.
Why should members funds be invested in player development when these players can just move on impacting the players left behind. Think about it shouldn't those members funds that have been invested be compensated or at least some small hurdle be in place so players think twice about the impacts before just leaving.
If a given club doesn't want to "invest" funds in player development because they're scared of them leaving later, they don't have to. Get out of the game if you don't want to play it. I'm sure there'd still be clubs (not suggesting any clubs in particular - doesn't bother me which, I just think all should constantly seek to improve their service) who, instead of worrying about those occasional issues, would carry on.
Why would members agree to employing a Coaching Director when they just end up, in the short term, just spending this money so that the best players go to other district clubs. All they do is develop players for those players to go elsewhere.
You sound like such a defeatist. And the keyphrase here, I bet, is "short term" - look at the bigger picture!
Under the current format would it not (and I dont think this) be a smarter business decision to just invest that junior development money in your senior program and get the players at the other end of the process?
Why even raise this as a point if you "dont think this"?

The smart business decision is to provide and market the best service to customers - not grapple for a regulation to encourage mediocrity. Some customers will leave for minor reasons (personal gripe, friends moving elsewhere, moved else, changing needs, need fresh approach) but that happens in business. I have clients whose needs change or who have incoming staff with a different preference about their provider, etc - so be it.

Reply #277640 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

if your serious then: The point is, basketball at junior level is not succeeding for most of the clubs and letting it continue without zones will continue the monopoly and dumb down competition.It serves no purpose to play 22 rounds of basketball when only 4 of the 22 are competitive. Monopolies destroy and junior basketball is a just that.
And the fact you continue to overlook is that the monopolies work with the best players to start with because of the take from everywhere free for all. Zones would end that and make the competition just that, competition.
Messenger, centrals never got the proceeds of the canteen and woodville had no club rooms at the dome and rented court space that was always subject to change thru lightning and 36ers etc.You need to compare apples with apples.If you believe facilities are unimportant to success and revenue you should not be in this debate.Most clubs barely cover court hire costs from subs.
The fear of zoning from the the clubs with most to lose, their monopoly, keep turning the debate into lazy opposes hardworking and smarter. The truth lies in the cattle in the paddock. Sturt and forestville coaches would not turn the bottom clubs players in to stars but they do continue to take the best from those clubs on the basis that parents beg them to do it.Allowing clubs to take anyone player from an area at any time means long term destruction. Strength comes from a solid base of competitive clubs and zoning gives every club the foundation for success.

Reply #277643 | Report this post


Nix 90  
Years ago

anon,

do you think kids from grange, who have never played district basketball, actually know that Sturt is the State Champs? Of course not, unless they are a member from a previous generation.

But if Sturt have a JDO and that perosn goes out and runs clinics and invites playres into U10's. Then that clubs will have a advantage.

If all clubs did it, there would be no advantage.

Then it would be about who does the best job coaching.

But until people like you accept competition for what it is, you will never see the benefits.

I agree with yo about ABA. Why not buy players. And that is who your club works.

Problem is this. People play ABA for reasons outsied money. If you give them a 10 year program at junios where they are happy, all the money possible won't make them change clubs.

Reply #277644 | Report this post


Messenger 16  
Years ago

643, basketball at the junior level is not succeeding (as you put it) because of the monopoly (actually duopoly but let's not split hairs!), it's because of the lower clubs being guaranteed a market share.

You want more regulation (eg zones). I say less regulation (yes I am a conservative!) like the Vic Metro competition. That way poor performers are driven out of the market and replaced by new players who will actually compete with the duopoly.

Reply #277645 | Report this post


Messenger 16  
Years ago

643, The fear of zoning is not that the duoploy will lose, but that EVERYBODY will lose when the sport collapses at the local elite level when people flee BSA to play local competition at Sport For All centres all around Adelaide, and no one plays elite basketball because they are all playing football and netball. That's the fear! Again less regulation (ie the complete opposite of zoning), not more will encourage competition, as is the experience in Victoria Metropolitan where smaller newer clubs are flourishing. You're afraid of that because you know your club will be replaced by ??????!

Reply #277647 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

So driving out 4 or 5 clubs is good business practice in a minor sport setting and in a small population base? Melbourne can't be compared to our setting because of populations

Reply #277648 | Report this post


Messenger 16  
Years ago

Yes it can. And it is good practice because they will be replaced with organisations that will be able to compete more strongly. Again it has happened in Melbourne.

You're partially right though. In a small market the more likely scenario is that the membership base of existing poorly performing clubs will revolt against their leadership when faced with threats of extinction.

Parents with no basketball background, but good business sense, will empower people with strong basketball background to rebuild their clubs into entities which can compete.

Reply #277650 | Report this post


Not to zone  
Years ago

The duoploy would love to see the competition improve in this state.

It would mean their teams can improve further by having week in week out strong, competitive games. This will increase the interstate performance of SA club and State teams.

That won't happen through zoning. If there are zones, clubs won't need to aim to continually improve. They can fall asleep, and this would bring the quality of all down.

There are people at the duopoly who are happy to give advice to other clubs on how to improve. They have actively made it happen, and would like to see others do the same. Norwood seems to have picked up on it. Good on them!

Reply #277651 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Thats interesting.

Club-wide/team success isn't built overnight, it's not built in the space of months, in some cases it may be a case of years. So... A Club, with a person with a good business head on their shoulders running it, appoints a good person with a good basketball background. The person with a good background is developing kids. Parents desperate for success and to ensure their kids teams play higher divisions revolt. Person with good basketball background, and doing a good job is removed and so the cycle begins again and continues.

Reply #277652 | Report this post


concern  
Years ago

Messenger 16

I agree with anon .
You believe that if the your drive out 4-5 clubs they will be replaced, by who.
I think you are in dream world.

The same with coaches if you do not have the talent then very difficult. Coaches give their time each week and they just want to have a competitive team not one that is getting beaten by 30 -40 points each week.

My major concern is for SA junior basketball that 2 clubs are so dominant as shown by state champ results.
A heathly comp needs all club/teams to be competitive.

BSA needs to address this issue otherwise in the long term there may only be 4 clubs .

Reply #277653 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Not to zone: use some logic please. Zoning Clubs would fall asleep at the wheel beggars belief. Clubs with a fair access to talent would skyrocket and the competition would increase and become viable. Zoning would allow all clubs fairer access to the talent pool. I'm for allowing all players to stay where they play now and introducing zones in twelve months time which would allow even BSA time to work out a fair zoning arrangement

Reply #277655 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Just introduce transfer fees for players that play out of zone. They still have a choice of playing where they want its just they (or the club they are moving to) has to compensate the club they are leaving.

Clubs need to take junior development seriously. Clubs need to invest money in junior development take a commercial approach to this service. If that happens then clubs need to be compensated when the players that develop in their program just pack up and go.

Reply #277656 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Isaac I think you miss the point. The players are the customers but they are ALSO the product. That product adds value to the other players and they also the product of a club's work and investment using member's funds.

No its not like a bank - banks make profits - clubs don't make profits they pool members funds to provide a service for the benefit of all those members. The members (all of them) own those funds. Why should they invest in junior development when the product of those funds can just leave.

Reply #277658 | Report this post


Messenger 16  
Years ago

concern, who will replace them? The SA equivalent of McKinnon Cougars, that's who.

Yes I am in dream world, that's why the second screnario is far more likely. You say the duopoly are afraid of zoning. You're right. I would put it to you, the hierarchy of the poorly performing clubs are a hundred times more afraid of their membership if regulations went the other way.

Reply #277659 | Report this post


Stop sooking about everyone else having something you don't and do something about it. Boo hoo, life’s not fair. Successful people go and get what they want, unsuccessful people are the ones that just don’t get it...which one are you?

It’s pathetic, it really is. I would love for a Div 1 and Div 2 competition to be highly successful but because of the incompetence of clubs and their coaches, it’s not! Ask the state coaches about players from certain clubs and their tendencies. Highly deficient in most areas and THAT’S why they don’t get picked. Lots of natural ability within every team and a good coach will develop, guide, mentor and instil discipline to enable players with the natural talent to progress to the next level.

If you want a fair, share the minutes, everyone is happy competition then play a lower grade, play social, play school ball and piss off from this debate.

Ask your child if they would prefer to be coached by a decent coach and improve out of sight or be coached by someone who thinks this is football? Play hard, play tough, go get 'em is not very helpful to players who are continuously being beaten off the dribble or who can’t shoot with proper technique. Does any actually teach their players how to shoot with proper technique or do we all think the players will learn themselves? Is it too late to teach a player how to shoot in U16’s? Yep, probably. Maybe you should start at under 10’s? Ever teach a player how to pivot with the ball - probably not. Every yell at a player for turning the ball over or every yell good job, get another steal’, probably. Ever encouraged your players to pass man ahead? Do all your players turn up 30min before training to warm up properly, practice footwork, ball skills and then start training ready to go at 100%? I doubt it! Ever dropped your best player for not turning up on time consistently? Probably not.

I can keep going, but do I really have to? This is common sense people, please help the players by educating yourselves and asking the right people for help.

Reply #277660 | Report this post


DaddyO  
Years ago

Ok - I'll be the one to ask the obvious. How many Div 1 players from other clubs have got a clearance to Sturt or Forestville in the last year. One? Two? Fifty?

I suspect the number of players is quite low. Sturt's clearances don't appear on SP. Forestville has three new registrations and one clearance out listed. Limited evidence, but it's hardly a flood of players to the big two.

If zoning was introduced today, how long would it be before it had any meaningful effect? Most clubs would find a number of their current best players would be out of zone and be entitled to transfer to their zoned club anyway.

Reply #277661 | Report this post


Isaac  
Years ago

That product adds value to the other players and they also the product of a club's work and investment using member's funds.
Player/parents don't care too much about themselves as products providing value to clubs though. They are paying fees for a service and want to see their child succeed, feel like part of a community, etc. My credit union shares funds with members but I don't really care too much - I'm primarily there for the low fees and good service. If they were a bank demanding exit fees and crap like that, screw them.

Customers/members want a strong service/club. Clubs can deliver that by striving harder, not bringing about artificial regulations to provide shortcuts.

Reply #277665 | Report this post


Messenger 16  
Years ago

DaddyO, I count 1 to Sturt in this basketball year. ONE!

Hardly a stampede. Oops, that turns the debate on its head!

Reply #277666 | Report this post


Messenger 16  
Years ago

P.S. That's in boys only. Not too sure in the girls, but seeing as though Sturt won every boys state title except Under 12's (where they fell one basket short!), I think that number is relevant.

Reply #277667 | Report this post


Isaac, I totally agree!

If the club wants loyalty, give the players/parents something to be loyal to.

Poaching is basically non existant. Players make their own enquires, parents make their own enquiries.

Boo farken hoo. Get off your backside and do something about it other than complain to anyone that listents that your club does not have a bar or only has two courts. This doesnt change the fact that good players need guidance and mentoring to become great junior players.

Reply #277668 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Daddt O - don't overlook Norwood the emerging new Sturt and Forestville when it comes to developing players from other clubs!!

Reply #277671 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

btw - can you define what is meant by poaching if you are serious then. I guess when I am appproached by a parent of another club saying the coach would like my son in his team then that is not poaching as it wasn't the club!!!! It did happen!!!

Reply #277672 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Messenger, I think it was two baskets as no three points in U 12. Doesn't matter - I will be supporting Sturt at the classics over an arrogant Norwood group!

Reply #277673 | Report this post


Europa 22  
Years ago

Do people really think that if you had a JDO organiesd Aussie hoops and a domestic comeptition. That got the most kids at U10 level from these programs. Put in place good U10 and U12 coaches. Then improved the coaches in coming years for U14 and U16's.

Why would any members feel the need to leave?

Reply #277674 | Report this post


Isaac  
Years ago

I guess when I am appproached by a parent of another club saying the coach would like my son in his team then that is not poaching as it wasn't the club!!!!
For one thing, that's near impossible to police - the coach may have said something solid, or just implied that they thought the kid was a good player, or said nothing at all. And parents are always going to get involved and try to meddle.

Secondly, it takes two to tango. Actually, it all comes down to the player/parent in question or the move would never happen. Not much you can do about it but focus on keeping your sense of community high, your team solidarity strong, etc.

Reply #277676 | Report this post


DaddyO  
Years ago

#277671 The discussion above seemed to be limited to two clubs. Apart from the one widely discussed team, has there been an influx at Norwood?

Southern, South & Mavs have also recruited on the girls side in the last couple of seasons, although not all of the players were Div 1 at their previous club. Many of the players moving came from the duopoloy.

Reply #277677 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Are posts disappearing or are some posts being deleted from here??

Reply #277850 | Report this post


Isaac  
Years ago

Don't think so. I think DaddyO's was the last post in a while.

Reply #277852 | Report this post




 

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