Isaac
Years ago

Clarke: NBL should consider one import per team

Full article here

"This is why the AFL is streets ahead of everyone else," he said. "Not because of the 20-odd games they play a year, it is because of how competitive each training session is. Forty odd players are fighting for their spots each and every session.
"I would like nothing more than to walk out to 15 players each week throw out the balls and watch them fight for places."
"Some teams might not want to pay that many players but if that is the problem don't pay your imports a big wage and share the money out more," said Clarke. "The imports in this league aren't setting the world on fire are they?"
Clarke, a former NBL player with the North Melbourne Giants, said talented youngsters weren't getting a fair chance to develop their games under the rules. "What do you do with promising kids like Mitch Creek, Anthony Drmic and Hugh Greenwood?" he said. "Those guys can only get 'development minutes' on court and it is not enough."
I know these are probably just off-the-cuff frustration-comments from Marty made after the loss to Melbourne, but my initial thoughts are:

The NBL are looking at introducing 1-2 more teams in the near future and those will provide further spots for local players. As it is, Sydney aren't quite overflowing with talent. Nice to have minutes for kids, but you can watch the ABL for that.

If the imports aren't setting the league ablaze, can't you just play the youngsters more? Mitch Creek has been getting far more than development player minutes! Ben Madgen and Joel Wagner have been getting decent time on court. Scoines too.

Let's say Marty could've picked in-form players. Wouldn't he have snatched up Ng, Hill, Ballinger, Shannon, etc who had great games against Wollongong but then still struggled (as with the rest of the team) against Melbourne?

And, of course, there's nothing stopping a team (e.g., Perth) from having one import anyway.

Finally, I don't think the AFL is a great success because it has large team lists and lots of opportunities for younger players. It's because it is the highest Australian Rules league in the world.

Topic #24663 | Report this topic


HO  
Years ago

The games are different. I cannot envisage, other than injuries, where for form or other reasons a situation would occur where a player would be elevated off a reserves list onto a playing list.

There are a bunch of reasons this happens in the AFL. Your #1 ruckman is suspended, or injured, and you go to your seconds to get a replacement. Those suspensions or injuries happen far more frequently than they do at NBL and are often short term.

Basketball coaches and teams can go their full season never having to change their 12. if their starting PG gets injured, they are more likely to try and recruit another PG, rather than backfill from a reserves list.

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Tornado  
Years ago

Agree with you Isaac.

AFL is the primary sport in Australia and therefore there is alot more dollar flow into the sport. The popularity of it with the kids mixed with the potential of higher learnings is what draws the talent to the AFL.

I'm sure this is nothing more than Clarke blowing off some steam verbally and probably frustrated that we have had 4 imports this year and only 1 has really performed at any decent sort of a level?

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Tornado  
Years ago

**higher earnings**

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big dan  
Years ago

does this man think before he speaks how do you compare afl to basketball one is only played in australia the other world wide .even if we had one import the way this guy picked imports we would finish with a dud .again stick to this club dont worry about things that dont concern the 6ers worry about how to fix this teams problems and we know we have heaps

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Big Marty  
Years ago

In a manner of speaking, while we can certainly blame game performance for some of the comments, Clarke has certainly been firing off some comments which in all honesty needed to be said by someone of importance.

Unfortunately while as fans, we can all comment when our team loses, but the comments echo from everyone. Unfortunately not everyone has deep enough pockets to pay out fines for commenting.

Honestly I'm suprised the Marty hasn't received a fine yet. Must be quite good with his wordplay when making comments.

Certainly think when everyone heard him call the NBL a bush league on National TV, it was a good thing.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Not a fan of this coach, he just seems to rub me up the wrong way with what he has to say, AND his erratic subs. How he took Ng off after hitting 3 straight 3's against the Hawks is still beyond me. No feel for the game i guess?

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Skud  
Years ago

If the imports get more than 20 minutes, maybe they will be able to put up some big numbers huh.

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skip  
Years ago

I'd go slighty further and say each team can have one Marquee player. That player can be from anywhere and is excluded from the salary cap.

It might mean then that some team have no imports, but instead have lured a Brad Newley or Nathan Jawai back to play.

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Fizzle  
Years ago

I like this idea Skip, didnt the A-League have this or perhaps still do.

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Statman  
Years ago

I just dont get the attitude he seems to have of wanting to spread the minutes out so much across all 10 players. Surely at the Elite level you have a rtotation of 8 players with the rest used only sparingly. Now he wants 15?

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Isaac  
Years ago

Statman, it's what modern teams are doing. Perth used 10 players (even when down Knight and Wagstaff) on the Gold Coast. New Zealand used all 10 when beating the Hawks in Wollongong. The Crocs used 10 in holding off the Breakers at home. The Breakers again used 10 players in that same game.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

why not have a 10 week d-league of sorts with five or so teams in the major capital cities that play before the nbl games - make the teams play with 8 max players with six under the age of 24 and the rest with any veteran looking to get back in to nbl form etc

Reply #302514 | Report this post


Isaac  
Years ago

Who'd pay for it?

Reply #302515 | Report this post


LA Boy  
Years ago

this guy seems like a joke infront of media. first of all, he certainly can just sign 1 import like Perth. secondly he can play the young ones more if he wish and think its better for the team?!

don't try bring some garbage ideas, this isn't a development league. like mentioned if you want to watch or coach development league, go to ABA.

Reply #302528 | Report this post


Ineedmore  
Years ago

test

Reply #302545 | Report this post


Moses Guthrie  
Years ago

I'm with several other posters. Just do it, ala Perth.

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MACDUB  
Years ago

Ideally, it would be great if the NBL could run a system similar to the NRL Toyota Cup.
The Younger Team (i.e. Under 24s or so) could travel with the senior team and play games before the actual NBL game.
I think the NRL Toyota Cup is a great example..Players still get the chance to develop and get to play extremly high quality games week in week out.
Obviously, Money is the big issue. With alot more money, something like this could work.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

His logic is pretty clear.

You can't have an NBL that is totally professional and a second tier league where roster spots are occupied by ex-NBL Dad's Army types, imports and guys that aren't going anywhere, play once a week, train twice and get into it for the social aspect.

Where do your kids between 18-23 get developed?

COLLEGE? Yes. What about Mitch Creek/Jason Cadee who don't want to go to college? They need to play NBL. What about the second level of junior talent, those that don't go to the AIS and don't end up at College...what do they do? This is the obstacle confronting the sport right now...

There's a lot of Division 1 Colleges who have recruited Australians and they haven't necessarily made them better...it's great of the fit is nice, but if the fit isn't great they lose their spot, lose playing time and end up in the doghouse. Ben Allen at Indiana anyone? Daniel Dillon at Arizona? The same thing could hapen with Vandenberg at NC State and even Ellis/Salecich at St. Louis. All big name schools where Australian athletes went and got totally lost.

There's kids that go to Second Division schools and get developed because they PLAY. They return ready for NBL (Madgen is a great example). David Barlow Mark Worthington and Jesse Wagstaff are also notable examples.

One import would free up money to be spent on an extra coach for each club and extra development players.

The most important thing is this: junior players coming through the pathway need to know there are job opportunities for them to play. Our league doesn't need to be American. It's Australian. People will still watch it if teams had one import. They won't turn away in droves.

The NBL would be better for not having seen imports like Gilder (Kings) and Ron Howard (36ers).

Creek and Cadee will play more and more and they will be great for this league, just like Ingles and Mackinnon were.

The premise that it can't be a development league is complete bullshit (to a degree). IT MUST BE. Australian basketball can't afford to have it not be a development league. WHY? Because there's no other option. Once the junior pathway ends we can't rely on the US College system or our second division ABA Leagues/SEABL to do it because there's good evidence to suggest they don't.

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paul  
Years ago

His logic isnt clear at all, he doesnt play some of his young guys a lot, and Creek has got more minutes in games with two imports than when they had one import!

Development is essential, but having one import wont help young players development. Teams have to have at least 3 players on their full roster under 24, some (NZ, Wollongong, Adelaide, Townsville, Gold Coast) have more. If they are good enough they will play, if not they wont, regardless of how many imports there are.

Here is my take on it:

http://www.nbl.com.au/news/article/2011/january/a-beautiful-distraction/

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EC  
Years ago

ABA between April and September, $6 to watch. NBL between October and April, $25 to watch. They are 2 separate competitions, 2 different levels and 2 separate ticket prices. Let's keep it that way.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

I don't mind Clarke's idea and brings an interesting perspective from someone who has a lot of knowledge in the pathway for elite Australian juniors from his time at the AIS.

However, rather than enforcing a 1 import rule, why can't the league make the following changes:

* Enforce a fixed salary cap that allows for 15 contracted players with teams forced to sign say a minimum of 13.
* Remove or change the points cap accordingly and the u24 rule.
* Maximum of 2 imports.

That way there are more contracts for basketballers providing a more viable pathway. Even a 12th man such as Harris or Daly earning a minimum NBL wage and then a SEABL/ABL deal will earn close to if not more than an AFL rookie/draftee.

Teams have the choice whether they want to sign 15 players or 13. Teams that sign 2 imports will probably have salary cap constraints confining them to 13 and others such as Perth with one import 15.

If a viable cap for 15 player squads was agreed to by the NBL players then it could work. Average earnings might decrease (ie $1million divided by 15 instead of 12) but the increased player roster spots would counter this in favour of players.

Don't really need any age limits. One would assume that 13 to 15th man spots per team will not go to 35 year old veterans.

Would be interesting building a team. Do you go for 2 high priced imports and an 8 man rotation with minimum blokes from 9 to 13 or go out and pay a bit more than minimum all the way down to 15 and entice say a group such as Drmic, Greenwood and Creek to sign for 2 years with the hope that they develop into elite players and become settled in your city such that they want to re-sign at the end of these two years.

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paul  
Years ago

Good ideas, and worth investigating but they arent that different to what we have now. Each team must sign 12 players and most DPs get around $30K (that should definitely be an enforced minimum if it isnt), and at least 3 of those guys must be U24. Adding extra guys adds a pathway but wont increase playing opportunities.

As it is teams can sign one or no imports, have 11 or 12 men on the roster if they fit under the caps and have more than 2 DPs, so those options are already there.

If Clarke were serious about what he is saying Daly would have got some more minutes this year, especially when they had one import and underperforming imports.

At the end of the day, how many genuinely good players have we actually lost to the sport. Guys like Bathie, Jenkins and Brogan werent good enough to be NBL players. Losing them after they have given it a try is no loss, and getting a $40K contract as essentially a training player in the 15 wont sway undecided players from the lure of the AFL draft.

As far as I am aware though, not one player who would have or did make an Australian junior national team has been poached by another sport.

Our biggest focus should be finding ways for clubs to get the best AIS kids rather than them going to college, but Clarke's idea wont achieve that.

Reply #302603 | Report this post


Camel 31  
Years ago

AIS team in NBL with Uni scholarship attached.

Reply #302623 | Report this post


HO  
Years ago

Paul, Pendlebury and Jack Watts were both expected to make Australian National Under Age teams.

Reply #302656 | Report this post


Beantown  
Years ago

"the NBL isn't a development league"

Its exactly this attitude that saw the Sixers running out teams of geriatrics in the mid-2000s. Not only did they not win, but they were boring to watch. Seeing Copeland, Davidson, Maher, Thomas, etc running around well past their prime was depressing.

Other teams had old geriatrics playing well after they should have too, because virtually no-one was developing any new talent in the mid-2000s. In a healthy league those old guys should be forced out by younger talent over time.

You have to give young guys a chance to get into the league and learn alongside vets. They have to learn how to focus and remain confident when playing in front of a big crowd. They have to learn how the refs call the game. They have to get used to the speed and savvy at the top level.

If you don't do this, you end up where the Sixers are now. Several years of losing and having to try to change a losing culture without enough vets who can still lead by example with their play on court.

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Isaac  
Years ago

Bean, you forgot Timmons. That was the one that killed me.

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Beantown  
Years ago

I knew there was at least one guy I forgot... I think my list should have been more than enough though!

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LA Boy  
Years ago

Beantown- I understand what you're saying and yes I too feel like the old buggers got to go, but the question is can the young guys out perform the old ones?

maybe there's more pressure to be placed on the young ones to overtake the vets then just hand it over to them, if you know what I mean. if they need to develop, go to ABA for game experience and train and work their ass off and it'll pay off.

regardless this is a professional league and people want to WIN watch the highest quality of basketball, not watch young players develop while getting frustrated with losing. in saying that, like I mentioned before it doesn't mean youth development is not important, there just need to be a balance between the 2 always with winning in mind.

many developed talents can leave clubs too so win now seems to be the most logical path for clubs if i'm a general manager.

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LA Boy  
Years ago

oh and probably good for some example,

Lakers developed Kobe earlier this century while having a team full of vets and now Andrew Bynum around a team of vets with a few other nice young legs eg. Shannon Brown.

The Spurs had a team of vets with young guns like Tony Parker and Ginobli while they had Robinson and Johnson around. and now with George Hill

So that's my point, always build the team to win or at least be a contender NOW while having a few young guns to develop for later. I don't think there's not that many young promising teams in history who really came through to dominate an era.

even the earlier Melbourne Tigers team who dominated an era with a few championships were put together and not developed. had them been able to keep Barlow then they'll probably be in a better situation now.

Reply #302719 | Report this post


Beantown  
Years ago

LA Boy, agreed, there must be a balance. I'm just saying that the league (and especially the Sixers) have not developed young players enough in the past few years. Thats why the SIxers must rebuild the hard way - from scratch - without that balance

Reply #302721 | Report this post


LA Boy  
Years ago

for me I would've tried sign these players:

1. a big eg. Schenscher or Nevill (maybe have to look at the cap???)
2a. Wortho- only if he can provide at the 3 spots
2b. a PG maybe Homicide???

if 36ers have 1 and 2 of above or all 3 of the above, with Ng and the other young fellas, then you guys can at least compete now while set up for future you know...

a potential line up like:

Nevill, Ballinger, Wortho, Hill, PG... that'll be pretty nice for you guys I think. but obviously easier said than done.

Reply #302722 | Report this post


paul  
Years ago

NBL is a young man's league at the moment. Almost 3/4 of the league is 27 or younger, and there are 34 guys 25 or younger. Add the development spots and there are plenty of opportunities for young players. All for increasing them, but it isnt an urgent issue at the moment like it was a few years ago.

I agree wholeheartedly that you need a balance between professionalism and development, and the fact that Creek and Cadee, straight out of the AIS, are averaging 15 and 17 minutes respectively tells me we have it pretty right.

HO, I forgot about Pendlebury, but I didnt think Watts was a genuine chance. If he was though he made a bad decision, because he isnt much of a footballer.

Reply #302726 | Report this post


Beantown  
Years ago

Agreed Paul, things are now quite good on the youth front. And the Sixers may not be as good as I'd like them to be right now, but I at least can hope for a brighter future with some younger guys who have a chance to be really good. It was depressing watching Copeland, Maher, Thomas, Timmons, etc getting beat all the time and knowing that next year they'll be even slower!

LA Boy, I feel like the Sixers are not far away at all right now. I think the main thing is that extra big like a Schenscher or Neville to allow Balls to play PF against the bigger opponents and Johnson to be an impact player off the bench while he develops.

We don't even need a Wortho or a Homicide I don't think. With Creek coming onboard, the Sixers finally have a SF prospect that can be an elite player - something we haven't had since Cattalini left the club. Until Creek develops, Hill will be okay I think, as he is finally starting to get it.

Shannon is pretty good and I think can do the job for this year and next. If we hang onto Bruce and Carter, perhaps we will have PG covered without the need for an import in two years.

Reply #302742 | Report this post


HO  
Years ago

Beantown, interesting thought, and probably deserves another thread but it has been fun to watch the progression of the league over the last few years as some clubs have added genuine centres and the game has adapted to that. I don't like Schenscher, as I just find him soft, but he and Neville are genuine 7 footers and specialist centres - and JK might be in that category as well despite not being as tall. In the past it seemed the whole league played with a four man at the five spot. I hope it continues, because our localised players need to learn a game style that plays with a genuine centre - it will help us internationally.

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LA Boy  
Years ago

I'm not gonna argue if you need Wortho or Homicide, but you can never have too much talent is all I have to offer. whether to play Homicide or Creek more would be a nice problem to have, what's wrong with that?

The goal is to contend now and prepare for later at the same time, and that's why I proposed something like that.

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paul  
Years ago

I agree 100% HO, and I think Crosswhite's improvement this year puts him in that category too. It's good to see teams like Cairns and Townsville with big front lines doing well - unlike Melbourne they surrounded them with shooters and have a plan B if the big line up isnt working.

I also think the refs are slowly getting used to reffing with more big guys. Still a way to go, but I have noticed as the year wears on more fouls called on the post defender for grabbing while trying to deny the ball etc. That is important for keeping big guys in our league.

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FM  
Years ago

Could run something similar to Korea which only allow 1 import on the court for the 2nd and 3rd quarters. Allows the coach his full team at the end of the game. whilst leaving room for local players during the game.

Reply #302801 | Report this post


Beantown  
Years ago

HO, I think you're right, Big Red is a little soft at times, but I have also seen him get mauled repeatedly without any calls. Hopefully the refs really are starting to get it - the attitude seems to be "you're big enough to look after yourself".

I am liking the way the league is at the moment too, with contrasting styles and younger, more athletic players. You've got your Perths and GCs and Adelaides going for fast, small lineups and then Melbourne, Townsville and even Cairns have gone quite big.

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aussieboomers4eva  
Years ago

I too am pleased to see the emergence of genuine centres in the NBL and hope it continues. Insofar as the referees swallowing their whistles on holding fouls in the low post however, from what I saw at the WCs, that is exactly how it was called in the international game. Aleks Maric was a case in point. I thnk teams sussed out pretty quickly, perhaps after his excellent performance in the first game against Jordan, that if you stop Maric from getting the ball in the low block, that you dramatically decrease his effectiveness. Seriously, teams were using his arms as monkey bars and he got little love from the referees. Even that shit commentator from the UK, who clearly knew very little about basketball, picked up on it. Being too soft on the Nevills and the Schenschers in the NBL, would probably not be the best preparation for what they may expect to encounter if they pull on a Boomers uniform in a major tournament.

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Camel 31  
Years ago

if we could swap Sam Harris in and out for some games
Kevin Johnson for Ron Howard in and out for some games
That's the flexibility he'd like to see.
Seems pretty good to me.

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paul  
Years ago

At the WCs they let the big guys bang but they were very quick to whistle little guys who were trying to hold a bigger guy in the post.

The Sixers can swap Harris in and out of the roster, they have enough points to do it. He is a 2 and they have 4 points to spare. I wonder if they are aware of that? The rules regarding points etc are a bit complex.

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Camel 31  
Years ago

We're not aware of that. That's what started the talk.
'cause we wanted to play Harris on Sun nite, but didn't think we could.

Reply #302891 | Report this post


KB3  
Years ago

Only way Harris can come in is on a full contact which I doubt they want to do as they are paying for Herbert Carter and most likely took a hit to exit the two imports.

Reply #302892 | Report this post


paul  
Years ago

Yep, they have to officially sign him, but that shouldnt be a problem if they genuinely want to play and develop him. I believe you can have as many as 12 players (plus DPs) as long as they fit under the caps. Each game night you can only play 10 of those rostered players and one of the 10 has to be U24.

Unfortunately, Aaron Bruce doesnt quite fit under the points cap so they had to sign him as an injury replacement and not as an 11th man.

If they had signed Mike Rose instead of Ron Howard they could have fit Bruce in.

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Camel 31  
Years ago

That's interesting.. I liked Ron Howard's first game here. The pressure's gonna be on him , then , in a coupla weeks , with Carter fit n Bruce here and Kevin Johnson (looks a bit lika Creek) here.

Reply #302895 | Report this post


paul  
Years ago

That depends on the other rule Clarke was talking about. The rule is when Carter returns he must replace Bruce (same as Wagstaff for Majok), what is unclear is if Bruce can then replace someone else, it seems a bit unclear around the league.

Reply #302896 | Report this post


KB3  
Years ago

No it quite clear if Carter comes back Bruce is out. Same deal as Harris can not come back in as he has already played under injury waivers. sam though could come in on a full contract but then there are cap issues to consider.

Reply #302901 | Report this post


KB3  
Years ago

Paul don't you write for the Nbl? I would have thought that you would know some of these rules. You have said above that every team must sign 3 u/24 players. That is not correct. Currently need to play one under 24. If the team wants developement players then they also need to be under 24. Sixers last year had no development players. How much experience do you have with the Nbl or are you just learning the ropes?

Reply #302903 | Report this post


FM  
Years ago

KB3 I think you will find Mollitor was our development player last year.

Reply #302911 | Report this post


KB3  
Years ago

Molitor was our under 24. U/24 and development players are different.

Reply #302914 | Report this post


paul  
Years ago

I dont work for the NBL. But as I understand it there is a requirement to have development players. If you can show me that is wrong I am happy to be corrected, but that is my understanding.

In terms of the injury waivers, you misunderstood what I wrote. If Carter comes back he must replace Bruce. What there is confusion about is whether Bruce can then replace someone else who gets injured later in the season.

Reply #302917 | Report this post


MACDUB  
Years ago

I don't agree that there should be 15 contracted players. Teams simply won't use all those players and why should the 8th man be getting paid the same as the 15th man, when all the 15th man is doing is training.
e.g. It would be like Mitch Creek getting paid the same as Jan Warbout.

Having 12 contracted players is fine. But 15 is too much. Your paying 3 guys money for training..They are getting paid to train..I can think of heaps of quality young basketball players in Oz that could do that.

Reply #302919 | Report this post


KB3  
Years ago

@paul get hold of the rule book , that will help you.

Reply #302921 | Report this post


paul  
Years ago

If the clubs are confused about it I dont feel bad about not fully understanding it!!

Reply #302924 | Report this post


Camel 31  
Years ago

I like 15. Aaron Bruce Rhys Carter Sam Harris Kevin Johnson here training really aching to play.


Reply #302932 | Report this post


Beantown  
Years ago

Who is this Kevin Johnson guy I have been hearing about lately? Young South Aussie? Big? Small? Ex Phoenix Suns? ;-)

Reply #302956 | Report this post


Camel 31  
Years ago

I mentioned (on sixers open training sessions this week). I attended training on Thursday and they were very sharp.
I was looking at two Johnsons numbers 21 and didn't know who one was.
Anyways - I asked the boss man there.. seeing we're a bit short up forward, have you dragged one in .
He's a friend of Eddie Shannon, with ability and asked if he could train.
That's all I know about him.
From memory, he's about Mitch Creeks build.
Might be ex Phoenix , not sure....?

Reply #302978 | Report this post


Isaac  
Years ago

Camel, Phoenix is a joke re this Kevin Johnson:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Johnson

Reply #302981 | Report this post


Camel 31  
Years ago

Aw, the one training here is not famous..
He conveyed the feeling he knew what he was doing, that he had everyting under control, at his first NBL training session.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Wasn't there a Kevin Johnson that played in the High Stakes Hoops thing?

Reply #302992 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

And yes pretty sure last season the 36ers didn't bother with any development players. Like someone said Molitor was on the ten man roster.

Reply #302993 | Report this post


KB3  
Years ago

@Camel was it this guy?
http://www.eurobasket.com/player.asp?Cntry=CYP&PlayerID=103821&AmNotSure=1

Reply #302995 | Report this post


Camel 31  
Years ago

KB3 - Sorry, just gotta computer issue and this one will take half an hour to turn a page...
Although.. He DID play High Stakes Hoops here.. I'd forgotten. .. Sixers boss man did tell me. So that may help to know him?

Reply #303004 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

I think that Kevin Johnson was meant to have pretty impressive hops. Here are his performances for the Pythons at HSH:

Game 1 vs Reef

26pts 5reb 2blk 10-15 FG, 3-5 3pts, 3-7 FT

Game 2 vs Coasters

0pts 1reb 1stl 2to 0-2 FG (played 5 minutes)

Game 3 vs Rays

DNP

Reply #303010 | Report this post


LA Boy  
Years ago

last time i checked the old school kevin johnson is now the mayor of Sacromento...

Reply #303013 | Report this post


Camel 31  
Years ago

Yes, I think so.
The one training here with the Adelaide 36ers
was telling Corey Williams to ' pass it '
at the High Stakes Hoops , here.

Pretty good numbers there for the Pythons, seeing Homicide didn't pass it at all.

Reply #303014 | Report this post


Camel 31  
Years ago

KB3 - It's funny how eurobasket player id=103821
does look a bit like him and same name
but I don't think that's him.

Reply #303094 | Report this post




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