YouknowME
Years ago

Fixing the NBL

Watching old game tapes, from 1994. And the league was so much better then. There were more stars, not just imports... but Aussies too. Guys like Leon Trimmingham who would never be in the league as it is today, Lenard Copeland in his prime... Ricky Grace.. then Aussies like Keough, Gaze, Vlahov. What has happened to this once great league?

Teams use to average into the 110's, imports were genuinely thrilling to watch... there was a 'smoothness' to the game. I wish I hadve been old enough in 1994 to follow it properly.

What exactly happened? did the Australian public lose faith when we failed to medal in 2000? Was it the change in season? Emergence of AFL? Miss-management? I am watching a game Sydney vs Perth.. 1994, and I am hearing commentators say "this games more for basketball purist, not alot to cheer about"... thinking "Your kidding me?" 49-53 at half time Leon Trimmingham just beasting all over the court... and your telling me back then this wasnt considered a great game? in todays NBL it would have been the game of the season.

The way it was presented too, was big time... It doesnt really look too many paces off NBA at all. When did the NBL lose faith in itself? when did it become the league run by conservative old wankers under the watchfull gaze of a feminazi self congratulator?

It is hard to come to terms with the fact that I am watching the same league here!

We need to go 'back to the future' a bit here, there is a 3 year plan being installed... but what does it entail? Is the league going to be full of tiresome Perth Wildcats style suffocation games where it becomes a task to sit through it, or will the game be officiated in a manner that allows offense to entertain? (then theres the fine line of will it disrupt players being ready internationally.. a whole nother debate.. although when the NBL was most entertaining the Boomers were at there best)

What is going to happen about this import deal too? WAdelaide 36ers are salivating about Gary Erving... He would have been your average run of the mill import back then. I would prefer we don't have to poach players from slovakia as imports.

I know this all wont be fixed next season, but this 3 year deal needs consider what we have already done that worked and revisit some of it. Marketing and Media would be one issue... HELLO KRISTINA! HELLO!!!!

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A  
Years ago

Great post YouknowME, but Gary Ervin would still be a great player if it was 1994, trust me.

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YouknowME  
Years ago

yeah would have but there were plenty of them.

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HO  
Years ago

YouknowMe,

Can you clarify what you are trying to fix?

The NBL? which is no longer KK's problem.

The Boomers program and profile?, which are KK's problem

or

The sport of basketball, which is the problem of thousands of people including KK.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Scrap the points cap so we can keep more of the import talent in this country if they want to play out their career here. The great teams in the 90's had two imports but also 1 or 2 naturalised americans in the team. Americans that couldn't make it in NBA loved playing here for the lifestyle but also because it was a strong league. These days its a little too much of an australian league but like it or not the american talent is what made this league great back then. They bring the flair and athleticism that make this game great to watch. Teams bat too deep now. Back then it was 5 or 6 playing majority of minutes and two back up minutes and the rest played junk time. Spend more of the salary cap keeping the best talent playing in this country. When things go from strength to strength we might not lose our best australian players to overseas leagues too. Making it a 48 min game again may help open up the game and less of a defensive grind. But also the officiating needs to change somewhat to help improve the spectacle. It may not be the best thing when players need to adjust to the international game but i think the nbl needs to go down the line of making it more entertaining as apposed to officiating like its an international game. Can only dream

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Anonymous  
Years ago

First of all, clubs need to play an exciting brand, not just boring defensive basketball even if it does work for you, die hards dont love that style, and casual fans will say its a boring/crappy sport/league. I know heaps of people that love the NBA but not NBL, because its 'boring'/less athletic in comparison.

Free up the style of play, adopt some of the NBA rules to free up the key way and get some athletic swing men in the league and give them the freedom to use the athleticism at the ring but having those defensive restrictions.

Then let the media ACCESS anything they want at ANYTIME they want, except obviously interviews in the middle of training or games, but before, after and between quarters is fine! All coaches, GMs, players must take any reasonable media/interview request, drop plenty of leaks to get the fans excited, especially about the big/good things!

Back in the 90's/early 2000s they did both these things better, guys like Copeland, Brooks, Rose, Farley, etc were alot more exciting to watch than most these days and also very highly skilled and there teams won alot, which proves you can have athletic/exciting players and win plenty!

Before he went 'nuts' Julius Hodge did a great job at talking to the media and creating hype and playing an exciting brand of play, obviously he made some mistakes along the way, but he atleast tried to promote the game in the media and did a good job really.

Guys like Gaze and Heal are probably the most well known Aussie basketballers in recent history, even today to some degree and a large part of it is because they both were/are very active in the media and community, have heard stories of them going to functions, talking to everyone they could and being among the last to leave, they weren't like ok ive done my 10 min appearance, earned my money, lets get out of here, something today's players also need to do better, it will undoubtedly help getting sponsorship deals as well.

If they dont fix these couple of things, i think the NBL will continue to struggle, all are very fixable quite easily.

Ie tighten up the reffing right away, call more fouls initially on the more 'physical' teams, it will be ugly for a couple of games, but before too long they will adjust as they wont want to be fouled out every game, that will open up the game style, allow the athleticism to flourish a bit more and also result in a higher scoring, more exciting and attractive game.

Get the personalities in the media, ie best couple of players at each club need to become local celebs, get guys like Ervin, Gibson, Creek in anything you can, plenty of interviews each week to the papers, any tv/radio station that will have them. All 3 of those guys are great players, good personalities, Creek is also young and very athletic so could be one of the most exciting players for the next 10 years or so, sell him now!! The NBA didnt wait til LeBron was an all star/MVP before they got him out there, they got a whiff of him in high school and got him well known before he was even drafted, then he played heaps in his rookie year,

NBL could hype up the next group of stars returning, sure some go to Europe, but hype up the likes of Gliddon even while he is in College, get the public to know how good he is and then we will get excited when he comes to the NBL, if he is good enough to go to Europe/NBA, make that more exciting as its an awesome opportunity, pity we cant get say Ingles Euroleague team and the NBA Aussies on Aussie TV, so the public can know how good these guys are. I think a couple of extra teams will help too, it will spread the talent a little thinner, so guys like Creek ,may get the opportunity to potentially start/play 20+ mins straight away, even if it is initally in a weaker team, its exciting to watch him come through and 'build a knowledge/relationship' with him from day 1, like the Crows have hyped up Brad Crouch, sure he hasnt played heaps, but every Crows fan is excited to have him and knows all about him and he has already shown glimpses in the games he has played. Sure the NBL doesnt have the budget of NBA/AFL, but could be as simple as putting a 'next Aussie stars' article/video package together each week on their website, also doe the same thing for Aussies abroad, ie Ingles, Jawai, so if by the off chance they ever do return to the NBL it will be well known and have the average basketball fan know all about them and be excited to see them in the NBL, or even just see them play the Boomers, i know they are separate to the NBL but its all basketball!

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Anonymous  
Years ago

The league standard was poor so imports could dominate. Trimmingham = Jerai Grant. We need to stop teams having starters on their benches so the studs play most of the minutes and make all the plays. That's the only way to get ridiculous high scores again, make it easier for the imports like it used to be.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

The biggest thing I remember was around the early 2000s (not long after we won the championship) and the NBL cut the salary cap down quite a bit. Not long after that they moved to a 40 minute game, and with the points cap etc, the game lost its appeal in Australia. The game of basketball is superb, but in Australia, there just isn't flare and excitement. Needs to be a 48 minute game, scrap the points cap, and try to make the teams not as depthy. Having a 8 man rotation would be far better than a 10 man rotation as it currently is. More money to spend on the top players meaning you can bring a better caliber of player on the top end which will make the league a better spectacle.

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Some_Fulla  
Years ago

It's pretty embarrassing when, potentially, only one NBL player will be in upcoming Boomers squad... kind of shows how bad the league is..

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YouknowME  
Years ago

Fulla, i never said the league was shit. I said it has dropped from where it was, I love it enough to want it back ontop

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YouknowME  
Years ago

A lot of the comments here ared spot on and pretty insightful. Only comment I straight out disagree with is this "The league standard was poor so imports could dominate. Trimmingham = Jerai Grant"

I think its a missconception that the league was poorer, I am watching a fair few games circa 1993/4 and I can tell you the league is not poorer, position for position I would take most of these teams before even our best teams of Perth and New Zealand. They did only go about 8 deep however, but every player on the court was competant at there position and ready to contribute... watching it now, I was amazed I use to think it was shit... the opposite, it was a very good league. I would hate to think of the kind of will someone like Vlahov would impose on the league if he was in it today, a hugely underrated player.

Trimmingham-Jerai Grant???? I dont remember Jerai having these kinds of tools... Defensively, the league wasnt as good but offensively worlds ahead of the NBL of today. CHalk and Cheese...

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Anonymous  
Years ago

The standard of the NBL was at it's peak in the mid-late 90's and yes if you can't remember it go back and watch games from that era now and it almost brings a tear to the eye.

Our Boomers Olympic team in Sydney 2000 which finished 4th losing in the bronze medal game consisted mainly of NBL players. Stars like Gaze, Heal, Bradtke, Grace, Anstey, Rogers, Maher, MacKinnon, Cattalini, J. Smith, Vlahov and also Longley.

At the 2010 WC we finished 10th and last year in London we finshed 7th with just 3 NBL players making the team in Worthington, Gibson & Crawford.

The league was still a high standard in the 2000's but really went pear shaped when it went under the control of BA in 2009. It was needed though due to profligate owners spending heavily on rosters and then going belly up.

I understand BA had to reign in the owner's spending but in turn our top-tier players don't play in the NBL anymore as they can earn far more overseas. And the league suffers not having elite talent in the NBL anymore and it really is starting to become a glorified developmental league with cheap kids out of college and lower leagues.

At least you know Marty Clarke is happy.

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YouknowME  
Years ago

Couldnt agree more. I feel like I am seeing a few stages with the league. It was pretty good late 80's great through most of the 90's... kind of average through the early 00's got good again around 2005/6 when the Sydney/Melbourne/Dragons/Bullets finals were going down and we had Ingles/Newley/Anstey/Jawai etc. I think now, too many of our players arent here and we are sorely needing a shot in the arm... 2009, is probably the date where it did kind of die off.... I look at the line ups now, Adelaides a good line up. But in many line ups I dont see STARS.... I wanna see players that are interesting. We have had it a few times in this league... we need it again, Perth of last year was boring as bat shit, as was Townsville, Cairns, Sydney to an extent... only teams I would go out of my way to see was Adelaide (even though they were losing) New Zealand and Wollongong.

We need the game to be called in a way that allows more offensive freedom, we need closer ties to the community, despite what I said before maybe we shouldnt go as deep and spend more money on imports and top teir aussies (I have seen how deep the old NBL went) and they need to think about entertainment value. The NBL has been a great league at times, but at others a poor one... We were a pretty good league as recently as the mid 00's... Lets get some stars.

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Nathan of Perth  
Years ago

Hopefully we won't be the boring as hell team this year <.<

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YouknowME  
Years ago

Well your line ups a bit different by the looks of things, who you got so far this year?

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YouknowME  
Years ago

Just thinking... when the NBL expands... should it look outside the box a bit, stop worry about Brisbane and Melbourne and look at establishing teams in Northern Territory and Hobart? Both areas sorely lack pro teams of any sport, both would get overwhelmingly behind it if done right. Thoughts?

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Proud  
Years ago

Whilst I'm not sure about playing in summer in Darwin, I think it could work and as for Hobart... Please make it happen, with the AFL very hesitant to create a new team down there, the time is absolutely now to get a consortium together and try and get the advertising $ that Cricket and V8 Supercars aren't cashing in on.

We also have a couple of Tasmanians in the league... Just off the top of my head Lucas Walker, Adam Gibson and Matty Knight. You throw in a couple of imports and you'd automatically create some excitement and who knows how competitive.

As for Darwin... Don't the Madgen's do work in the Territory, I'm sure they'd have a good opinion on whether its viable and couple them with WNBL teams if you can.

As for the original topic... I was watching I think it was the 1997 grand final game 3 between the Magic and the Tigers and Steven Quartermaine said the Tigers were pitiful and atrocious because their FG% was like 36%... Whilst it looked ugly compared to the pretty play of the magic, by contrast with say the Crocs or Wildcats last season and it wasn't that bad.

I've bought my Perth Wildcats membership and that's a start of what we can do but other people wielding far greater power need to fix this league and you gotta believe they are putting things in place to get us the spectacle and competition we desire

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Mick  
Years ago

The big problem with the scores and tempo and flair you are talking about is broken done thusly:

1. No one played defense in the 90s in the NBL. No one. Watch the tape. It's like an all star game every play.

2. As people embraced the less glamorous side of the ball with more complicated defenses and a pointed focus on that end, the NBL has done nothing rule-wise to protect the offensive player. Look at the Perth Wildcats: they are one of the worst offensive teams in the NBL but have dominated the league over the past 3 or 4 seasons based on defense alone. You can't do that in any other league. You have to be able to score the ball as well as defend to be a top tier team.

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Mick  
Years ago

And youknowme, I completely agree with you, however we are in the glaring minority among the close-minded and ignorant, that the NBL should identify markets with demand and exploit them. Places like Darwin, Wellington, Geelong, etc that don't already have both AFL and NRL teams.

Look at the succesful franchises in the NBL: Cairns, Perth, Auckland: they are all in places where there isn't both NRL and AFL already.

Adelaide is a lock to become stable again, I'm willing to bet that their poor crowd numbers are purely due to crappy basketball and they will return once they start winning. Again: only one of AFL or NRL.

When you have Union, NRL and AFL teams in the city the NBL should be very wary. How do you expect to compete with that?

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Kr  
Years ago

I would also say the emergence of Europe as a playing option for our best players has had a huge impact. The likes of gaze, heal, bradke and vlahov would most likely have played in Europe for bigger money if they we playing today. Obviously the nbl would be stronger and more entertaining if we had ingles, Newley, jawai, maric, barlow etc playing today.

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OzHoops  
Years ago

It's pretty simple. Good administration improves the NBL. Grassroots basketball is ahead of the curve. Good administration at the top end of basketball is the problem. Starting with the board of BA & Executive team. It's that simple. Good administration develops the NBL brand & product. Good administration delivers TV broadcasting $'s. Good Administration doesn't bite the hand that feeds on twitter. Question is, how does Basketball attract Good Administrators?

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hughj  
Years ago

OzHoops - GREAT POST!!!!!

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MACDUB  
Years ago

There are controversial options like changing the months of competition(to a Winter comp) or amending the salary cap/points cap scheme.

However, I think one option that pretty much everyone can agree on is that the NBL needs to return to 48 minute games.

A game where the score is 60-55 is really no fun to watch. Maybe to a defensively-orientated, old-school purist. But those games don't market the game well.

This would be an ideal game (48 mins game) 36ers vs. Breakers..the score is 121-120.

Ervin scores 40 points, Cedric goes for 35.
The battle of the imports, going tic-for-tac.
Abercrombie dunks (like he did in that 36ers game a few years ago).
Creek high-flying dunks
Bruton,Gibson,Webster, Corletto canning threes all over the place.
A see-sawing affair..50 lead changes, 3 in the last minute and an Ervin or Ced gamewinner or gametier of which an unbelievable OT plays out.

All it takes is an epic game like that to get the fans to come

In the NZNBL (40 min games) a few weeks ago Otago beat Taranaki in a 4OT game 145-137.

Was crazy! The crowd for that game was 800ish,
The next game, the stadium sold out and about 2100 turned up.

I'd like to think that getting fans to a game is like getting a rookie golfer back on the course:

"All is takes is one good shot" (or in the case of the NBL, one good game)

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HO  
Years ago

"However, I think one option that pretty much everyone can agree on is that the NBL needs to return to 48 minute games."

The worst way to start an argument MACDUB. An appeal to popular response.

I think Paul will argue, and I would agree with him if he does, that even if you go back to 48 minutes, the style of officiating and coaching will not allow the "rack em up" style of contests you pander for anymore.

I disagree with you. 48 minutes is not the answer. For a start, its less TV friendly. Second, it likely creates blowouts, not close games. Sure, you'll get some 121-120 results, but you'll get a bunch more that are 111-78. Third, a key to making NBL relevant is making Boomers indispensable watching in this country and for the foreseeable future they will be playing the 40 minute format.

There are far more intrinsic problems with support for basketball in this country than simplistic 48 minute solutions will fix.

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Statman  
Years ago

If a game at the moment is 60-55 in 40 minutes how can we expect the score to double in an extra 8 minutes?

Sort out the officiating and the way the game is called and let the game be the free flowing, fast paced joy to watch and play that we know it can. Hell here's an out there idea, play/referee it to the rules of basketball! Holding, hand checking, bumping the ball carrier bringing he ball up wasn't allowed when I first learned how to play the game so why is it now? If we allow the players to showcase their skills and athleticism rather than have a wresting match Im sure we will see higher scores and more crowd pleasing games.

The way things are now increasing game time simply masks the root cause of the issues IMO

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Anonymous  
Years ago

One thing i really think needs to be considered to help compensate for the lack of the top line Aussies ie Newley, Ingles, etc is 3 imports and 12 man rosters.

For example, You can get an athletic/versatile swingman import who may not be quite as good as say Ingles/Newley, but still better than most of the Aussie SF's in the NBL and provide some more excitement even say Ron Dorsey or Akeem Wright at a very affordable rate to a NBL club.

Ie last season the Tigers really needed to get a starting quality PG,SG,C out of the import spots, but obviously only can have 2 so they went with Braswell at pg hoping he would get his citizenship through in time so they could keep Dorsey at SF and Scott at C, obviously it didnt work so they ended up without Dorsey and replacing Braswell with Flynn. Even if they still replaced Braswell with Flynn, if they were allowed 3 imports they could have had a starting 5 of Flynn, Goulding, Dorsey, Ballinger, Scott, not that Dorsey is a stud or anything but he is a fair improvement on guys like Lewis or Greer, probably could have got him at the same price and gives them a much better starting 5.

The same sort of scenario goes for almost all teams, ie the current Crocs team would look heaps better if they were allowed a 3rd import ie Hudson to fill the C spot for them, every team will benefit, even from a 3rd cheapish NZ/SEABL import and it will benefit the league as a whole and make it more entertaining to watch. Lets face it Dorsey is more exciting than a Tommy Greer, Hudson is better than a Hinder or Vanderjagt.

I go with 12 man rosters so the extra import doesnt push an Aussie out of the league and the extra spot will mean that guys like Daly would get a gig, so for me everyone wins.

Increase the points cap to 80, make the 3rd import come in as a 7 for there 1st season, aslong as they are on min salary, lets face it stud imports worthy on a 10 are not going to play for min salary, if a team gets lucky for 1 season then its a bonus and they will get re-rated after that, could even make a rule this spot has to go to someone straight from college, NZ NBL, SEABL, State leagues, then there is 3 points left for another young Aussie 12th man ie a college returnee or someone like Daly.

I'd also like to see a couple of extra teams if possible, but only if they have solid ownership, else keep it at 8. But if any of Wellington, Melbourne 2, Brisbane can fill the requirements let them in!

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Anonymous  
Years ago

I think there's too much of a fixation on the 48 minute game. If you change the way it's officiated, you can get a far more offensive, high scoring 40 minute game.

If we kept the current officiating in a 48 minute format, you'd just end up have 3 quarters of slog, and one quarter of trash scoring because 50% of the defence would fall away from fatigue. Not such a great product.

I'm a bit of a purist, and appreciate good defence, but not the football/rugby style that we're allowing these days. Unfortunately it's found its way into the junior game as well, and superior skilled and athletic kids are getting man-handled to negate their impact. Not the style of game that work to an audience.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Cable happened and kids watch real ball and don't want any part of an inferior product is one reason. The merry go round style of club in a here today gone tomorrow Aussie league is another and the last is the world has changed and like vegemite the audience for the game is very small.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Statman - you beat me to it!

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Vart  
Years ago

Anon #429608, the 'inferior' product argument, for mine, is just one of the reasons the NBL should revert to a winter season, or more predominantly winter season. Then basketball fans can watch NBA all summer long on pay tv and league pass, then get their hoops fix locally during the NBA off-season.

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Bear  
Years ago

1. Move back to winter - Good idea, but what then in regards to SEABL? **

**I have no fear of other codes as our product is unique and should cater for its own audience, but we can't risk killing an already great competition IMO...

2. Keep 40 minute games - agree if defensive attitude overall changes, but how will this leave us compared with the rest of the world? **

**We do need to consider how the game is played elsewhere so we don't drift off onto the wrong path.

3. Officiating - agree it needs to change, big ask this so where do we begin on this front? **

Once again, this could be a world wide issue and yes, it has impacted on juniors, not good the way referees allow holding and wrestling...

4. Free to Air TV - has to happen or everything else is stuffed!

5. Marketing & promotion - let's move into the 21st Century and get serious about this, more professional and snappy...

6. Schedule needs to become more attractive, economically viable and where possible emphasise rivalries as big occasion games, maybe look at a conference based schedule (but make it so anyone can play anyone else in the finals)!??

Address these basics first, then look at possible expansion clubs, not before!

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Isaac  
Years ago

All the "stars of yesteryear" posts are excessively romantic and conflate players from a number of periods. How many really played at the same time?

Entertaining imports last year alone: Dunigan (found him very entertaining), Deleon (crowd favourite), Hurdle (dunk comp), Jackson (fringe NBA), Hudson (I remember a fair few of his dunks), Ervin (showy), Edwards (dunks), Flynn (fringe/ex NBA), Scott (power dunks).

Plainer imports: Lisch, Massingale/Christopherson, Wilson, Henry, Lazare (though he was in the dunk comp, I didn't think he was particularly entertaining).

NZ especially were a team getting a lot of dunks.

Yes, the style is favouring defense and teams have an age to scout each opponent, but I don't think the talent is a big issue right now.

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paul  
Years ago

I think the OP who stated there was great Aussie talent in the league in 1994 and listed Damian Keogh in his top three told the story pretty well!

In terms of top Aussie players there was Gaze, Bradtke, Heal and Vlahov, along with Ronaldson and Reidy who were also good players. After that you had guys like Rod Johnson, Anthony Stewart, Peter Hill, Paul Rees, Keogh and ageing Ray Borner and Michael Johnson.

While there aren't locals today to match Heal, Gaze and Bradtke, the overall local talent after that (ie the vast majority of the league) is far superior today and divided into eight teams instead of 14.

The NBL shot to prominence in the late 80s on the back of something new, a semi-pro league where imports dominated the inferior locals and could put on a show. The scoring rate was very high back then, as it is in the SEABL and NZNBL today where the imports dominate most of the local players.

(Out of interest, the NBA-D and Canadian NBL are higher scoring than the NBA, Finland and Switzerland are higher scoring than the Euroleague and Spain - high scoring does not equal high quality. In 2012 the NBL had a higher scoring rate than the NBA)

As the NBL became more professional through the 90s, more talented young players came into the league courtesy of the participation boom and the number of teams dropped, and as a result of the increased depth of quality and focus on defence the free scoring dried up and hit an all-time low in 2000.

With a change in the reffing and the shot clock it picked up a bit through the 2000s but dropped when the league lost three teams in 2009. The scoring rose in 2010 as a lot of players left the comp and the standard dropped.

But over the past four years as more talent has come in than gone out the standard has picked up and the scoring rate dropped to an all-time low this past season, slightly below 2000 levels.

You would need to go to probably 16 teams to drop the standard sufficiently to get the really high-scoring games again like the 80s and early 90s.

However, it is crucial to do whatever is possible to make the game represent basketball and not rugby, and allow offensive players to show off their skills. The all-star game showed what many already knew, we have very skilful players in our league, we just need to make it easier for them to shine.

The league actually has a reasonable footing to capitalise on that at the moment if they do.

The benefit the league has now over the late 90s when the 'entertainment factor’ was dropping is its attendance and TV ratings have actually increased the past four years, whereas they were on a steady decline from the mid 90s onwards. It is also still on FTA now whereas that had disappeared by the end of 2001.

At the end of the day though, it is about engaging the community to get them to games, and doing little things like online media and also scheduling right to make it easier to get to games.

The TV product is also crucial, say what you will about early 90s NBL but it failed on TV and that started the long decline we all bemoan so much.

Things like jump balls and 48-minute games won’t get the job done, neither will just showing full games on TV. Sadly there are no magic puddings, just investing more resources into doing the basics things well that interest people in the league, keep them involved and then increase their involvement eg signing up as members.

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paul  
Years ago

One other very important thing is allowing league HQ to govern for the best interests of the league. Clubs acting to the detriment of the league for their own interest seriously hurt the comp in the past, as did the failure of most clubs to invest the dividends of the boom into the future of their club and the comp.

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Mick  
Years ago

The key problems as I see it:

1. NBL embraces no history of the game. You never see classic moments replayed on TV or on the NBL website. Where is all this stuff? Embrace the rich history of classic moments, past legends, etc and give them game in this country a more fleshed-out backstory to sell it. Every other sport has all these classic moments / plays / stories etc. that get shown all the time, and it gives the sport a sense of history and belonging. It never happens with the NBL.

2. Salary cap is fine. Leave it. Half the league can't even afford to spend the full $1m. Which brings me to my next point.

3. Marquee player rule. No. Not required. Look at the team that Townsville or Wollongong will put on the floor this season. It's only around 3/4 of the cap. Take away one of those imports' salaries and add the 250k cap surplus and you're looking at a salary of around 350k to offer someone. That's big money that can get you a pretty decent marquee player if you build the rest of your roster economically, if you are say Perth or NZ and can spend the full cap.

4. 2 imports. Leave it. Last thing we need is more Australians out of a job.

5. Marketing and especially the use of social media. So bad it's not even worth dicussing.

6. Game night presentation. League wide ban on songs with vocals during game play is a must. It's tacky as shit, makes the TV broadcast look/sound cheap and turns people with any semblance of taste off in droves.

7. Game style. Call the game properly. Encourage attacking from the perimeter. Bring back the jump ball. Easy. Basically just do what the NBA does please. This isn't hard. Monkey see monkey do. Then you will get your dunks.

8. 48 minute games. Do it or don't do it, but it's not going to change anything in terms of making the game more exciting. It will just be the same style of game, but 8 minutes longer. A red herring in this whole "what's wrong with the NBL" mystery.

9. Player points rule. Scrap it ASAP. Seriously, what is this shit? What's next, we can only play one import at a time? Height limit? Only one person over 6'10" per roster? It's restrictive. And anything that is restrictive is bad IMO. Which is also why I hated the "under 23" rule. It's a restriction. If a guy is under 23 and of pro potential, the market will see to it that he gets a spot on a roster. Let the market determine a players' worth, it's the only fair way.

10. Compulsory media training for all NBL administrators. They have to learn that you aren't the AFL or NBA. You can't afford to say "no comment", on any issue. You need every column inch you can get. If the journos turn on you, you are fucked. Even if it goes against every moral or proud bone in your body, let them get what they want, at least for a while. It's for the good of your franchise, your league and the wider game.

11. Australian talent overseas. See my comment on the marquee player rule. Build a cheap, young roster and offer a mid-tier Euro-based Aussie like Dave Barlow 350k to come play for their hometown team and watch them bite.





Reply #429639 | Report this post


Go Sixers  
Years ago

The product isn't that bad. It's proven in the past that the product can be sold to the people. What's different now?

The advertising of the product.

With a clever advertising campaign the league could be stronger than ever in 5 yrs. the question is, who funds this because it would take a significant investment.

Reply #429640 | Report this post


skull  
Years ago

the way the refs are calling the game is not conducive to high scoring.

Reply #429641 | Report this post


Vart  
Years ago

The NBL finally put together a decent television campaign in 2010, only to have dumb asses like Cal Bruton come out and say that is was racist, and put an entirely negative slant on the whole thing.

Reply #429642 | Report this post


Nathan of Perth  
Years ago

The German football Bundesliga, from what I recall, operates under a system where there is no hard cap, but to both maintain viability yet also encourage growth and innovation, player salary expenditure is limited to a certain percentage of club salary.

I wonder sometimes if the salary cap+points system, rather than ensuring competitive balance, is simply enforcing a level of mediocrity.

Look at the A-League, there is a soft cap that stops teams from blowing themselves up, but there is also the marquee system so they can bring in names that actually benefit clubs all across the league. This includes an Australian marquee slot for bringing home some of the top Aussie talent (a problem for the NBL which has been raised a few times in this thread already).

Between things like this and things like more offensively-minded refereeing, we can do a lot for the entertainment value of the league.

From all signs, Nick Marvin is trying to shove the Wildcats away from a defense-heavy game and into a more exciting style, even if it proves detrimental to the win-loss columns. After all, its exciting games that will fill the arenas around the country more than anything else.

Reply #429643 | Report this post


Nathan of Perth  
Years ago

Mick, good post, agree with Pts 1 and 5-10.

Reply #429644 | Report this post


Mick  
Years ago

@Go Sixers. It doesn't take a lot of money to make a big splash with a marketing campaign if you do all the free things right as a base and are willing to get creative.

They have to sort that shit out first.

They can't even get the stuff right that doesn't cost anything (youtube accounts, social media, etc), how do you expect them to make the most of a 100k marketing budget?

Obviously you need someone who is going to curate the content, which costs money, but uploading a video to youtube is free. I honestly don't think the NBL knows this. Someone should email them.


Reply #429645 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

I like Micks idea re not needing the Marquee player rule, just spend the cap differently to get the marquee player.

Say the Crocs if they were spending the full cap, could basically replace Conklin or Pace with a stud marquee player, which would be exciting, pity they cant and other teams havnt done this, did the Tigers do this with Flynn last year to a degree?

I always wondered if the you could put together a stronger team signing 2 imports at 250k each, and then spend the other half of the cap on your Aussies. Is 250k each enough to get say Ty Mckee and Donta Smith?

Could you put together a team of say

C Schenscher 120k/Vasiljevic 30k
PF Petrie 80k/ Mottram 30k
SF Donta Smith 250k/Henry 30k
SG Gibson 150k/Burdon 30k
PG Mckee 250k/Daly 30k

How would that line up go against last years top teams?

Alternatively if you could say get Newley for 250k instead of say McKee and spend 150k on Ervin you could go

C Schenscher 120k/Vasiljevic 30k
PF Petrie 80k/ Mottram 30k
SF Donta Smith 250k/Henry 30k
SG Newley 250k/Burdon 30k
PG Ervin 150k/Daly 30k

That could be even better!

I reckon either of those line ups would make atleast playoffs if not win it all, sure not much depth, but using most of the bench spots for locals (just couldnt think of a SA sf with NBL experience not currently in the league, maybe Sutton could play that role?) but id play the starters 30-35 mins each.

Reply #429646 | Report this post


Bear  
Years ago

Coaches want to keep their jobs so they will do anything to achieve success at NBL level, that's a given.

So, unless the game is officiated properly to make them change, they will not change, no matter what they say they are going to do or what the perception is, if defense is winning games the coach won't move away from this...

No need to make any wholesale changes here, the rules are fine, it is the interpretation of the rules and the blatent disregard for protecting an offensive player (While also not encouraging the flop of course)!

Reply #429647 | Report this post


paul  
Years ago

A lot of good comments I think, a lot of people on the same page. Re $250K enough to get McKee and Smith. No, sadly.

Reply #429649 | Report this post


Mick  
Years ago

I think you need to take a risk here on who leads up the new NBL. It is absolutely key that there is a sole leader who has a vision for the league at the top of the pyramid.

Is it worth identifying an up and comer in the NBA league office, for example, and offering them the gig? Paying a little extra to get the right person knowing that they will be able to save you money elsewhere.

Reply #429650 | Report this post


paul  
Years ago

Mick, the problem with offering Dave Barlow $350K is he would not be a star in the NBL, a good player of course but not someone to build a team around.

As you increase the number of teams and drop the standard the more value overseas guys become, but it's a bit of a paradox at the moment. Guys arent worth to NBL clubs what they have to pay to get them.

Reply #429651 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

damm, 250k not enough for these guys, i wasnt sure but was hoping, what is the average salary for guys like McKee, Smith, Newley?

Would 350k be enough?

would love to see any of these guys back in the league, they would make such a huge difference to their team and the league as a whole!

Reply #429652 | Report this post


Mick  
Years ago

True Paul, I agree, but I was just saying that it's possible to get someone of that calibre if you have the full cap to spend, and fill roster spots 1-9 as if you were one of the community clubs. If you have the right combination of up and coming players and cheap imports and aussie vets, you can theoretically build a team around someone in that price range of 300 - 400k.

@ anon: Brad Newley is a level above those other guys you mentioned in terms of salary and ability. Mckee and Smith could easily be had for that sort of money.

Reply #429653 | Report this post


Isaac  
Years ago

paul re '651 comment - very true and needs to be read by all. You could get a bigger impact than a Barlow by paying up to steal Jackson from NZ.

Reply #429654 | Report this post


paul  
Years ago

No they couldnt, in fact McKee's club has a bigger budget than Newley's and McKee's performances have been better. Smith's club is trying to spend it's way up the European ladder and Smith is one of their absolute stars. I think youll find they are in similar pay brackets.

Reply #429655 | Report this post


paul  
Years ago

Sorry, above comment was to Mick, not Isaac!

Reply #429656 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Great point Isaac, a team would definatly be better off stealing Jackson than paying Barlow 350k!

How much would Jackson be on in NZ? 200k? I doubt they could afford more under the cap with the rest of their roster.

Reply #429658 | Report this post


Go Sixers  
Years ago

The league need to look at the NBA in terms of being pro-active in areas of advertising and officiating.

Good points about the advertising but I do think that a significant investment in a great advertising campaign over 5 yrs is needed. You need an outside group to do this. Hire the experts!!

The league need to make sure the product is what people want. All the feedback I read and hear refers to athletic play. The NBA have made rule and interpretation changes to give advantage to athletic play. Our league needs to take note!

Reply #429659 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Oh ok Mick, that makes sense so Mckee would cost say around 350k,

what is Newley worth 500-700k? I guess that is way out of NBL price range, sadly,

but i do agree with your point some teams would be better off grabbing a McKee type star for 350k then building the rest of there roster on a 'community club' budget. I personally think all clubs should basically do this, would be more exciting for the league and wouldnt lose too many players either, all the top Aussies are already overseas, especially if it remains as the same 8 clubs. Some players may just have to earn a little less, but the top Aussies probably wouldnt take too much of a pay cut either.

Reply #429660 | Report this post


paul  
Years ago

Just as an example of how good McKee is Mick, last year in the Eurocup he was 4th in scoring (18p), 2nd in assists (6a) and 1st in steals (2s). He is considered one of the better import PGs in all of Europe and has now signed with UNICS Kazan who are one of Russia's biggest clubs.

Newley is a good solid import in the Spanish league who had a much improved year last season for a team who doesnt have a huge budget, but he's not at McKee's level. I actually think Ty would prob be earning more than him now.

Reply #429661 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

What do you think McKee would be worth Paul?

Its a pity we only got him for 1 season, and injury meant it wasnt even a full season, the guys a star!

Reply #429663 | Report this post


Mick  
Years ago

Hey I'm not disagreeing with you I honestly don't follow it very closely at all (obviously), I was just guessing based on an extrapolation of where he was at a few years ago.

My point was just general that if you so desire, you can build your roster around a pretty decent player of international calibre if you build your roster around them rather than sign them as the last piece, sell them on lifestyle, english speaking country, etc. Moreover, the cap isn't as prohibitive to that as some people make it out to be, and marquee player rules or increasing the cap are absolutely impossible in a league where half the teams can't spend the full cap as it is.

However as a separate point, I also do believe that (unless you have Marty Clarke involved) there is a directly proportional relationship between cap spend and crowd numbers (ie. revenue), so we have to get these "cheap" teams spending closer to the full mil for their own good.

Is a minimum cap spend like the NBA has implemented an option, or is it too much to ask for at this point?

Reply #429664 | Report this post


paul  
Years ago

Yeah, rewind a few years and it was the opposite with those two.

I think the two big factors for crowds are how much the players engage with the community and how competitive the team is at home. Obviously a bit of local media support and/or a large database (something NBL teams havent traditionally done well) helps to let people know when the game is on.

Cairns have brought in excellent crowds despite not spending near the cap, while the crowd numbers for Brisbane and Melbourne in the late 2000s were poor despite spending bucket loads.

Wollongong had both those key factors first half of last year and had great crowds, then starting losing at home and crowds dropped away in the second half.

One GM said to me if road teams never won a game we would have a booming league.

Reply #429666 | Report this post


paul  
Years ago

@ anon, it is just a guess, but I would say in the US$600-800K range for McKee.

Reply #429667 | Report this post


MACDUB  
Years ago

NBL Clubs need to partner closely with firms, businesses and their sponsors so that bench players can get some kind of additional employment to top up their income.

More and more teams should sign up returning college basketball players. It's a win-win. Teams get them at good prices and can get good bench production from them. And the players get exposure in a good basketball league aiding their development.

Would love to see a team get Delly back:

Delly(180k)/Tomlinson(55k)
Gliddon(80k)/K.White(40k)
Newley(335k)/Henry(45k)
Petrie(80k)/MacMillan(45k)
Bairstow(95k)Trueman(45k)

Reply #429670 | Report this post


YouknowME  
Years ago

Totally have to agree about the marketing... it is non existant.. I remember people saying at one point "they are saving for a big marketing push next year"... well I never ever saw it.

The best marketing the NBL has got all decade is the South Dragons. The sooner they are back in the league the better... someone with money and vision is what the league needs... I remember the Melbourne darbys were sell outs.

The NBL needs to also look at how it shows highlights... I think its ludicrious they show people falling over and scrapping for a ball on the floor and a missed lay up as highlights on the show when you watch One hds coverage.. its like "come on are you TRYING to destroy the league???"

Someone needs to spring for a fresh, new and interesting marketing campaign... People are sheep, show the league enough, show the faces enough and people will get curious. Shit, I dont even like soccer... but recently the hypes got me thinking.. "hmm maybe I will go see Adelaide United sometime"

Reply #429672 | Report this post


HO  
Years ago

Sure, but even with the marketing, the Dragons crowds were not great (overall) considering their market. The Melbourne derby's were sellouts when Magic played North Melbourne or when Magic played Tigers.

Reply #429675 | Report this post


paul  
Years ago

I dont think the Dragons marketing was great. It was glitzy sure, but not that effective. The Tigers' marketing last season was more effective, and the work Perth, NZ and Cairns have done in recent years has been excellent.

Reply #429676 | Report this post


Nathan of Perth  
Years ago

@Mick,

I think it's still open for debate whether OneHD/Ten have in fact been attempting to destroy the League ;)

Reply #429677 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Sort of off topic, but say McKee is on 600k, how much better would he be than say Gary Ervin or Cedric Jackson?

What numbers would you project he would put up, same for say Newley, would he be guaranteed to be better than Ervin? Would both McKee and Newley be putting up 25pts, 5 assists, 5 rebounds? If not it could be hard to justify the expense of spending even 400k on them when you can obviously get Ervin and Jackson for 100-200k. But i guess there are only few imports of Ervins level in the NBL at 'NBL money' so i guess spending the extra would almost guarantee that every club has a player of Ervins level or better aslong as they pick wisely.

Another thought would 200-300k be enough to get say DJ Kennedy or another top line D-LEaguer? I know they earn like 40k or something but i think the harder thing is if they keep doing well they are more likely to get a mid season NBA call up in the D-league than they would if playing in Australia, would 200k be enough for him to not worry about a potential call up to the NBA and bigger/NBA money? Especially for the younger guys, i think DJ is 23. If so that may also be a cost effective way to get some star imports into the league, as im pretty sure Kennedy would be MVP level in the NBL from what ive seen of him, and the other top D-league guys would be similar.

I'm sure NBL clubs think of these things, i wonder if anyone has tried recruiting DJ? but sometimes i wonder if they get too focussed on getting a depth of Aussie Talent and cheaper imports and if they would be better off starting the roster with a star import or 2 and then getting your Aussies around them, sure the imports may only play 1 season, but im sure you can generally find a similar mould/level of player to replace them with aslong as you have a decent amount of $$ ie 200-400k.

Reply #429679 | Report this post


paul  
Years ago

It could be that Kennedy wants to stay in the US to keep trying to crack the NBA. I think those are the sorts of guys NBL teams chase though, Jackson and Gill were fringe NBA/D-League guys. The Tigers are apparently close to signing a ripper who played NBA/D-League last year.

Reply #429680 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

1. No one played defense in the 90s in the NBL. No one. Watch the tape. It's like an all star game every play.


Ridiculous comment. Ever heard of Brian Goorjian and the SE Melb Magic? Or players like Terry Dozier, Darnell Mee, Darren Lucas, Ray Gordon etc?

Reply #429688 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Newley is a good solid import in the Spanish league who had a much improved year last season for a team who doesnt have a huge budget, but he's not at McKee's level. I actually think Ty would prob be earning more than him now.


Newley is on around $800k in Spain.

Reply #429689 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Awesome look forward to seeing who the tigers get,

yea i was thinking that may be the case re Kennedy being young and wanting to stay in the US and maximise NBA chances if any come up, and am glad NBL teams atleast chase these guys, as they should. Even if they get rejected,m just keep going down the list, good D-Leaguers do tend to translate well into the NBL aswell so its a safe recruiting zone, but obviously probably quite hard to get the young guys to give up on the NBA and leave the US.

But would be interested to see if 200-300k would be enough to get him to change his mind and come to Australia and dominate, but pretty much end his chance of a NBA call up, atleast for a year, maybe we will get a guy like him when he is over 25 a bit like Jackson, ie he may realise at over 25 very very few get a NBA opportunity if they havnt already played a decent amount of games, so may aswell cash in outside of the D-league.

Reply #429690 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Paul, i get the perception the Tigers almost do what Mick suggests ie spending up big on one player with there import PG, looking at there roster i wouldnt be shocked if they had 200k plus available,

do they basically sign most of there roster for around 700-800k and spend up big on the import pg, not a bad idea imo, is that what they do?

I imagine guys like Flynn and who ever with the credentials you are suggesting wouldnt come for much less than say 200k would they?

(All this assuming the Tigers are playing within the rules and caps)

Reply #429692 | Report this post


Isaac  
Years ago

but i do agree with your point some teams would be better off grabbing a McKee type star for 350k then building the rest of there roster on a 'community club' budget.
If it was likely to work, they'd do it. But the Tigers more or less did this and not even with the community budget for the rest, and how'd it turn out?

Clubs are about winning and locking in the best Australians (limited talent pool compared to imports) deprives other teams of good options. That's been one good tactic, IMO, to focus on Australian talent.

Reply #429702 | Report this post


skull  
Years ago

without 10,000 seat stadiums how does any of it stack up......maybe that should be the initial criteria??

Reply #429709 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

The Tigers had too many Sf's last year, and struggled to take care of the ball as a result of not enough ball handlers a non budget related roster imbalance which hurt them dearly and if they had Flynn from the start and had Goulding finished as he started they may have made the playoffs, so cant say it was a complete failure, the basic idea has some good merit, Flynn was atleast a name that people got some what excited about/interested in and would have been one of the better known players in the NBL, which helps with media, marketing, etc.

They did better than the 6ers who stock piled the Aussie talent, with a cheap import, sure we had a bad coach, but one of the first things Joey did was go after a stud import, Ervin.

perhaps the ideal is something in between i think you need atleast 1 star import ie NZ Jackson, Perth Lisch, but enough room to have atleast 8 deep roster including around 2 'boomer level' guys ie Perth Redhage, Martin, NZ Abercrombie, Vukona. Which is what the grand finalists had. 6ers say had too many Aussies who were not good enough to compensate for the lack of a star import, Crocs pre Neville had Ervin, the star import for most of the time, but lacked a 2nd Boomer level Aussie, Crawford wasnt doing well until after Neville arrived either, so they ended up being fairly decent once they got Neville into the mix.

if they the tigers go down the same path again, get the roster balance right, ie 2 at each position and get the import pg right from the start and guys like Goulding continue his form, i reckon they will be around the mark of the playoffs atleast.

Reply #429711 | Report this post


paul  
Years ago

"Newley is on around $800k in Spain."

Was that last year's deal, next year's, or the one that was publicised when Valencia bought out his contract from Lietuvos Rytas two years ago? I imagine all three figures would be different.

Reply #429715 | Report this post


paul  
Years ago

It seems like Perth are going for less depth and more top end talent this season, will be interesting to see the difference, although the change of coach might make it hard to judge.

Reply #429718 | Report this post


skull  
Years ago

if Newley is on 800k per year he is grossly overpaid !

Reply #429737 | Report this post


FYI  
Years ago

Minimum 50k net to bring any big name Aussie back to the NBL

Reply #429739 | Report this post


Mick  
Years ago

Sweet! Even my lowly Crocs could afford that...

Reply #429740 | Report this post


Vart  
Years ago

$800k per year to play basketball for a living AND live in the Canary Islands? That is a SWEET deal!

Reply #429741 | Report this post


paul  
Years ago

Given Gran Canaria reportedly spend about $3-3.5million on their roster, and Brad is their third best player, that figure doesnt seem correct.

Still, after his really good year last season Im sure he is getting rewarded pretty well for living on a beautiful island and playing hoops! Good on him.

Reply #429745 | Report this post


FYI  
Years ago

@Mick that is per month

Tax paid , Car paid , super paid, accommodation paid

season here is 6 months plus 1 month pre season

50k Net translates to approximately $600,000 AUD

Reply #429748 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

There is a good debate going on right now on the NBL Facebook page. Join in and share your thoughts/suggestions

Reply #429750 | Report this post


FYI  
Years ago

My input to improving the NBL is as follows

Condense season to 4 months
1 import or BA contracted player
No points cap
Salary Cap of $800,000 across a minimum of 9 local players with 12 at home games
Import/ BA contracted player is unlimited spend
48 Minutes
Refs to De Gorj the game by encouraging fast passed , free flowing offence
6 fouls

Those things can be done rather easily and at no increase in costs to the current structure.

Ideally BA generates enough income that they can supplement Australian talent to stay in the NBL with national team contracts ala Cricket Australia. It happens in the WNBL , so it could happen in the NBL.

In that world a Newley may pick up a $100,000 BA contract and decide to stay in the NBL at Australian rates and not be THAT far off a Euro contract.

Reply #429754 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Contribute your thoughts on the NBL Facebook page.

That way the head head honchos will read your suggestions

Reply #429756 | Report this post


HO  
Years ago

Correct, because there is no way anyone officially connected with Basketball or the NBL would read this here. Absolutely no way. No way at all. Nothing to see here... point taken #429756?

Reply #429758 | Report this post


VP  
Years ago

Perhaps the NBL is dying because of the NBA! The amount of access to watch coverage of the NBA & College games is huge in comparison to watching the NBL.

Playing the NBL Season at the same time as the NBA probably doesn't help either. The NBL was at its biggest when it was played as a winter sport.

Now it competes with NBA & College games each week and most Australian basketball fans would rather watch these two basketball competitons than the NBL which has absolutely no big name players left worth watching.

Most aussie kids couldn't name any players in the NBL!

Reply #429761 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

The NBL isn't dying.

Reply #429762 | Report this post


Damo  
Years ago

FYI - if you allow more fouls for players then i dont see how this will increase the flow of the game?

I was recently in Europe and interesting enough, the deliberate foul to stop the game and allow defence to re-establish is so common compared to Australian leagues, where players are prepared to run the floor and the defence is prepared to attempt to defend the break without foul after foul.

I guess this is why the break away unsportsmanlike foul was introduced, but it only applies in a one on one situation.

Where the big difference seems to be is the increased calls on the post both on offence for hooking, pushing off and holding as well as defence for holding.

It's pretty hard to get a shooting foul (inside the keyway, and there is lots of contact on the ball carriers, provided its not two hands on kinda defence.

The games i watched all had foul counts under 40 per game, and everyone just accepts the physicality.

Very little coach demonstration, and basically the players were allowed none!

Reply #429763 | Report this post


Camel 31  
Years ago

Don't spose we'll see Al Green 72points Adam Ballinger 48points agen. Todays heros get 10points in 32minutes and the League's most versatile player has retired (Cam Tovey)

Reply #429768 | Report this post


YouknowME  
Years ago

Al Green and Adam Ballinger achievements, fine I am with you. Bur Cam Tovey the most versatile player in the league? What is Graeme Dann best 6th man now?

Reply #429773 | Report this post


YouknowME  
Years ago

VP, I wouldnt say the NBL is 'dying'. Lord knows it has been a lot closer to it before... We are probably more on an upward swing. This is where Keneallys self love is right when she talks about increased memberships and TV ratings and revenue. The NBL was much closer to death a few years ago. BUT it can, and needs to be improved... it cant settle for simply existing, I am sure it will simply exist for a very long time.. but will it thrive again? even in a niche market?

Reply #429774 | Report this post


Camel 31  
Years ago

Tovey described by those commentators on OneHD
Gaze and Carfino last season.
It just struck me kinda funny Weigh next.

Reply #429775 | Report this post


YouknowME  
Years ago

Tovey was a versatile scorer too... 1.8 points per game.

Reply #429776 | Report this post




 

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