Anonymous
Years ago

Point system - a constraint of trade??

I think this whole points system is an absolute joke.

My understanding is that the NBL thought it a good idea to stop salary cal breaches. While it may be away of limiting this it certainly doesnt stop it.

From what I can see the only real impact it has is to lower the standard of the comeptition.

This is because there are players such as Tom Daly who I believe is rated a 3, has tried to appeal the rating without success and now cant get a contract because of that issue. That is a restraint of trade.

I believe he would play for the minimum wage and if there were no points system I am confident many teams would have signed him and certainly Adelaide would have.

However because of the points cap they can not fit him in to their rosters so are forced to sign players with less ability which reduces the standard or perhaps it is better to say it reduces teh depth of the league.

This hardly seems fair and I believe is an illegal restraint of someones trade. I belive the players association (I assume there is one) should be taking this issue on.

I belive that it should be the best players available that should be playing in the NBL and those are the players that deserve the contracts (how ever modest that pay might be)

I have only used Tom as an example, but from a thread I was reading earlier I suspect Benny Lewis is in a similar boat and I expect there are many others that I am not aware of.

This points system needs go and quickly.

The NBL can still monitor the salary cap, it is called auditing!

Rant over!

Topic #32352 | Report this topic


Isaac  
Years ago

If your argument about it lowering the standard of the league centres on Tom Daly (sorry Tom, still a big fan) and Bennie Lewis, oh boy. I don't mind the points cap but I do agree that someone like Daly should be in Adelaide and shouldn't be missing out on gigs because of a points value. I don't think the points cap has meant that Adelaide have assembled a weak team however - I think it's looking great for 70 points.

For every player who misses out, another gets a spot who would've otherwise missed out. Quality of competition remains a valid argument, but I don't think Daly and Lewis are a strong case.

There is supposed to be a way to appeal a value through hardship but I don't know how effective it is. Once Adelaide sign Teys for his single point, the path for Daly gets harder. Make the appeals too easy and you'll have teams exploiting it.

Yes, there is an NBLPA and yes they do make various noises about the points cap and restrain of trade, but I haven't seen anything come of it.

I imagine that the new NBL might ditch the points cap purely because some fans don't like it. I can see it having some value, even just as an arbitrary way of retaining control and changing it to a soft cap with a way of "buying points" from other teams. That's one mechanism whereby teams can be offered flexibility at a cost. Remove the points cap, and that opportunity disappears.

Reply #431472 | Report this post


PlaymakerMo  
Years ago

Well said, Isaac.

Furthermore, if Tom Daly (I'm a big fan too) were CLEARLY better than the alternatives available for 1-3 player points, he would've already been signed.

I believe that Townsville, Sydney and Wollongong aren't in danger of breaching the player points cap without extending their salary budget.

What we have is a subjective classification (by the NBL) and analysis (by clubs) of talent, where a given player (e.g. B.Teys) that is likely about the same standard as Daly picks up a spot that he otherwise may not have.

It's still in the best interest of the teams to put together the best roster possible given their salary constraints - this does not change.

While there is a deadweight loss from the PPC, I doubt there would be a negative net effect considering both the talent distribution effect and additional enforcement of the salary cap.

I wouldn't mind seeing a more 'flexible' player points cap i.e. a soft cap similar to the NBA's, but regarding the PPC and much fewer exceptions.

Reply #431498 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

I accept that Daly and Lewis might not have been the best examples about the weakening of the league but the restraint of trade problem still exisits. I couldnt imagine what it must be like for a fringe player to know that would get a contract if rated lower. To know you had an NBL gig and income stream availble to you but couldnt get it done because of the point rating is just absurd and a restraint of trade.

I dont get the arguments about what it actually does to benefit the league and why it is needed. If the auditing process is done correctly then what is the use of it.

Do any other sports use a points rating system?

Reply #431512 | Report this post


Nathan of Perth  
Years ago

@Isaac,

Either by trading for unused points or by paying the league a luxury tax on extra points. Something that could allow the 70pt margin a little fuzziness so that players who would otherwise be 1 or 2 pts too dear on a team balancing a roster can still get a gig.

Reply #431520 | Report this post


paul  
Years ago

Big fan of being able to points trade to keep a current player, would help get rid of some of the silly situations where a player cant be kept because of one or two points.

Reply #431526 | Report this post


Muzz Buzz  
Years ago

Analogy

Do people like what the Miami Heat has done in the NBA? Amalgamating star power into a few teams weakens the leagues general appeal.

A points system avoids situations where the strong clubs get stronger and the weaker continue to struggle

do you want a competition where any team can beat any team or a lopsided one with 2/ 3 dominate teams that smack everyone each game.

Reply #431528 | Report this post


Nathan of Perth  
Years ago

paul - definitely the thing that narks me the most about the points cap.

Apart from, you know, not being able to spend millions of dollars hiring NBA players and then pretending they're on $150k. But apart from that, that's my biggest pet peeve

;)

Reply #431529 | Report this post


Nathan of Perth  
Years ago

Muzz Buzz, you say its lessened the general appeal, but has it? NBA does not seem to be suffering or trending downward.

Reply #431530 | Report this post


Muzz Buzz  
Years ago

Having said that i believe the concession should be granted to stop successful teams forcibly being torn apart to comply with the rule

You also have the classic recent case of Ev Bartlett claiming the points cap kicked him out of the league despite his points rating not changing and he having a valid contract in place


Reply #431532 | Report this post


Nathan of Perth  
Years ago

I still cannot understand how that last season did not see Barlett's points value go down instead of up, but whatever. In a sense, yes, he was dropped due to points. Not because they changed, and not because of salary issues, but because it was 4 instead of 3, which made the maths not work how we wanted it to. And there was absolutely no recourse available to him.

That said, good bye Mr 0-from-9.

Reply #431534 | Report this post


Camel 31  
Years ago

Originally I thought it time for point system to go
but thinking about Burdon instead of Christopherson and selling 9 points, my reaction has since mellowed.

Reply #431538 | Report this post


Isaac  
Years ago

Do people like what the Miami Heat has done in the NBA? Amalgamating star power into a few teams weakens the leagues general appeal.
Absolutely not. If I were one of the poorer NBA teams, I would not be excited about bidding high to get scraps while big name teams assemble "big threes". I quite liked when Bosh, Wade and LeBron were franchise players for their respective teams.

NBA might still get by on televised blockbuster games and finals series, but watching drubbings outside of that can't be attractive.

Soft points cap could mean that Adelaide could buy a couple of spare points from Wollongong for $x0,000. Either have a points market, or a flat-rate with redistribution based on who had underspent most. That said, would a team pay a five-figure premium for Daly over Teys; probably not.

Some fans have long argued that the lower end of the player market is roughly handled by the points cap. Often a 5 is hardly a monstrous jump from a 1.

Reply #431539 | Report this post


Muzz Buzz  
Years ago



Nathan points are locked at the time of the contract. Sign DJ long term at low points and reap the benefits. If a player drops off then you are lumped with that too.


to throw a curveball into the equation

Delly is 3 points
Exum is 1 point

Points dont necessarily equate to talent

Have also heard that Daly had advice not to challenge his points as it will drop his earning potential



Reply #431542 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Points arent related to salary. If someones points are lower then arguably that make them more of an asset, assuming they have the talent.
With the new NBL now on it's way expect the points system to be scrapped. No one in the new system will know how it works.

Reply #431553 | Report this post


Muzz Buzz  
Years ago

Points are not related to salary in any way.

Reply #431558 | Report this post


Nathan of Perth  
Years ago

And given they bumped Bartlett to a 6, I'd say they're not related to talent either!

Reply #431571 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Given Bartlett was under contract, his points would have been the same as they were when he signed next season. So points rising has nothing to do with him being cut.

Ie if he signed a 2 year contract as a 3, he is a 3 for his team for the whole 2 years regardless of his rating at the end of year 1.

Reply #431573 | Report this post


Nathan of Perth  
Years ago

Actually, it kind of did. It certainly closed the curtains on the idea that he would still be at the club at the end of the coming season and effectively made him a dead-end proposition that made more sense to cut than retain. The fact his points value arbitrarily added up to a college returnee+1pt player, freeing up a necessary single point to get dual imports just sealed his fate sooner rather than later.

But my comment wasn't related to that - just an observation that his points shouldn't have risen to begin with.

Reply #431575 | Report this post


Muzz Buzz  
Years ago

Bartlett is a moot point. Who knows what his points rating would have been once his contract finished. More to this payout than just his points rating.



Reply #431580 | Report this post


HO  
Years ago

http://sportsbusinessinsider.com.au/news/category/financial-and-governance/brendan-schwab-nbls-player-rating-points-system-is-a-flagrant-restraint-of-trade/

Reply #431583 | Report this post


MACDUB  
Years ago

Yes, the points system has its negatives.

At the end of the day though, it's a case of "tough titties".

Nothing is guaranteed in sport.

If you are good enough to play in the league, you will get a spot.

For guys like Daly/Lewis, it just reiterates the idea that you shouldn't put all your eggs in one basket. You have to prepare yourself for life out of basketball.

At the end of the day, working full-time in a good job will pay them better than what their earning potential is in the NBL atm?

Reply #431584 | Report this post


Nathan of Perth  
Years ago

If you're good enough to be a 10pt player you will get a spot. If not, well, you may or you may not get on to a roster. Depends how it all shakes out.

Reply #431588 | Report this post


paul  
Years ago

Just take a few words and you are spot on. If you are good enough you will get a spot. If youve been around a while and not performed you probably wont, doesnt matter whether there is a points system or not.

Reply #431590 | Report this post


OP  
Years ago

"http://sportsbusinessinsider.com.au/news/category/financial-and-governance/brendan-schwab-nbls-player-rating-points-system-is-a-flagrant-restraint-of-trade/"

excellent article! thanks HO.

The point is simply that if the NBL enforced the salary cap properly there is no need for the points cap.

Isaac your point about the NBA is moot. I dont follow it but surely the purpose of a salary cap in the NBL or any league is in place to equalise the competition? Do you disagree?

The NBL just need to enforce the salary cap. It is that simple. If they did their job properly the players and particulerly those at the lower end wouldnt be left out.

The points trading proposal floated from what I can workout goes directly against your notion of not wanting the richer clubs to be advantaged over the lower clubs. Would being able to afford to buy points simply strengthen the rich clubs and weaken the poor clubs who couldnt afford to buy them?




Reply #431628 | Report this post


FYI  
Years ago

And the writer of that article has since said he didn't have access to all the facts so it cant be considered accurate.

Just remember too that players are and have been happy to be paid outside the rules.

Players cant abuse 1 system and then complain when rules are brought into stop the undeclared payments. Not even ARL and AFL are able to effectively police a salary cap.

The NBA example shows that a salary cap doesn't equalise a competition. Even having a salary cap is restraint of trade isn't it, whoops perhaps not convenient to mention that is it.

Reply #431636 | Report this post


Nathan of Perth  
Years ago

"Even having a salary cap is restraint of trade isn't it, whoops perhaps not convenient to mention that is it."

Of course it is.

And the courts know it is, too, but its allowed as long as it satisfies a few conditions.

Schwab's contention is that the points cap does not satisfy those conditions.

Reply #431637 | Report this post


Isaac  
Years ago

OP, other leagues have salary caps and measures like a draft. A draft can't work effectively in the NBL and clubs were brutally rorting the salary cap.

A weak team cannot bring in revenue to improve. Selling points can help maintain income and allow them to cover shortfalls and make their way back.

Reply #431638 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Restraint of trade. Go for it. The NBLPA cou;dn't pull the skin off a sausage. Toothles, ineffectual and pointless.
Let's not forget those that have a job. Tell the 10 point player that wee need to hit maybe 2 x 5 point players, or maybe a 9 and a 1 point player. He will sue as well.
The new NBL will have to address this issue. Noone can sue anyone anymore, the old NBL that everyone says is resposible , has no involvement anymore.

Reply #431662 | Report this post


Libertine  
Years ago

Original poster, simple answer: Yes, it is a restraint of trade.

Complex answer: its legality depends on a number of things. ultimately it's up to the NBL to justify it (ie is it going to provide for what it's ultimate goal is -> competitive balance, an even league etc).

Brenadan Schwab wrote an article about this moons ago. Should look it up.

Reply #431714 | Report this post


Libertine  
Years ago

Sorry, just read the posts and seen the article already mentioned.

I do know that recently the NBLPA has been talking to Brendan about their next negotiations.

Reply #431719 | Report this post


HO  
Years ago

FYI, is there a reference to where Schwab now says he didn't have all the facts?

Reply #431727 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

His own quote in the article that salary is linked to a points rating tells you exactly that.

Reply #431728 | Report this post


Muzz Buzz  
Years ago

Google is your friend here HO
Schwab has said on his twitter feed that he used anecdotal information.
Obviously he cant state fact because the fact is no player has ever been stopped form playing basketball anywhere in the world because of their points rating in the NBL. There is nothing stopping eg Daly playing in NZ or SEABL or trying out overseas. No one is restraining his ability to play basketball and earn an income. He tried out for a number of NBL teams but was passed over. IMO the points cap is often to blame for players who arent good enough to make it. have you ever heard a 10 point player blaming the points system for not getting a job, of course not because they do have jobs. it is also an easy out for NBL teams to tell players that they cant sign someone because of their points. That is a lot easier to say to player than you arent good enough.

Reply #431734 | Report this post




 

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