Carcus Mamby
Years ago

Flopping and the NBL

Congrats to Perth for winning. Adelaide didn't play well and didn't deserve to win.

I'd like to address flopping in game 3 especially. Some may think Perth outplayed Adelaide and they may but the start of the game was a mess. It was not professional basketball it's not the sport I want to continue to follow into the next season.
To me it was clear that the body language was right off when Adelaide was getting soft calls against them and it really changed the momentum of the game. They say basketball is a game of momentum swings and to me flopping has a massive effect on the momentum of a game and not in a way that is amazing to watch or an amazing display of talent like a 12-0 scoring run in 42 seconds. It's cringeworthy when you see your team does it and it's an outrage when you see it when an opposition does it

What can the nbl do to address this, it can't stay the way it is and is becoming a joke and has been getting worse as each season goes by. There is no penalty so there is no deterrent. Should they impose a fine system similar to the nba where the more you offend the higher the fine becomes and a public shaming over social media? What other options does the nbl have?

Yes I am an Adelaide supporter but it's been driving me crazy all season and I snapped today.
Queue Perth supporters telling me I'm a sore loser

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Ricey  
Years ago

There is a deterrent, techs for flopping only issue is we need a ref with some nuts to call it

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Sore loser. Dosent matter how much you flopp, it dosent negate Perth's 34 point win.

Reply #469780 | Report this post


paul  
Years ago

Had no impact on result, best team all season won, congrats Perth after two tough GF losses.

But it was an incredible step backwards from three of the best refs in two areas where I thought there'd been some decent progress this year - flopping and how they call the charge/block. A shame.

Reply #469785 | Report this post


Wildcats80  
Years ago

Get over it, players do whatever to get a foul whether it be nbl afl. It's up to the refs to contain it. Don't blame the players. Cats 6 time champions

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Pauly B  
Years ago

I actually think the refs, overall, did a pretty good job. A much better series to watch than the rugby like play allowed in last year's series.

As for the flopping, I actually think it's better to just not call anything and let the play continue if the ref's think it's a flop. If you flop and don't get the call, you're basically one defender down and the team with the ball has an advantage. It also keeps the game flowing instead of stopping it for free throws.

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Carcus Mamby  
Years ago

Of cause it makes a huge impact on the game. After one or two flops of cause that is going to affect the team who are getting fouls against them, they are going to drive differently, they are going to fight over the screens differently they are going to be less aggressive on the rebounds. To say that it doesn't have any impact on the game other than the single foul is a joke and very naive.

Any nbl fan please answer this. Do you actually think its a good idea to resort to flops to get calls that often wouldn't be called?

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Anonymous  
Years ago

They need to bring in the NBA flopping fine rule. not as much $$ as NBA obviously. But just a little fine to try stamp it out of the League completely because it is becoming a joke seriously. Not just Perth, every team does it!

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Good story bro. Losing is always the refs fault

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Scopes44  
Years ago

Carfino, mentioned flopping way to many times when they weren't. Commentators influencing the perception of what a flop is.
Saw a tweet, can't remember who, but maybe some are not great at balance and no threshold for pain.
Also, players do what they can to win. You don't like it, don't watch it. What soccer, urgh wait....
Years later, people aren't going to remember players for flopping, they will look at them as smart players who played the way they wanted and won. Redhage being one of them.
Its up to refs to call it.

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Rasheed30  
Years ago

Sore losers, please!!!
Most 36ers fans would say Perth deserved to win it best team all year and it showed today, but the flopping Redhedge & Knight do is weak as piss for their size.
I've used the same tactic myself when you know the ref will fall for it when it's someone twice your size. Those 2 use it when the smallest players on the floor breathe on them.
I just don't understand how NBL refs still fall for it when it's highlighted so much.

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Maxymoo  
Years ago

Saw looser

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Anonymous  
Years ago

People saying get over it, ex and current nbl players have taken to social media to voice there disapproval of flopping. Players (redhage and knight) shouldn't do it to start with let alone the refs not calling it. Beal making out to get slung from under the ring to the 3point line when creek didn't touch him is near on cheating in my opinion. Don't call me biased because if it was Sixers players I would be saying the same. I hate floppers and unless the nbl does something about it I won't watch another game. It's woeful for the GAME! Knight flopped in game 1 it should have been reviewed and fined. It may have sent a precedents for game 2-3. The nbl is a joke.
Congratulations Perth on the title.

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Poker  
Years ago

"Congratulations Perth on the title."

Admit that was damn hard to type....

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Anonymous  
Years ago

maybe it was good there was ridiculous flopping going on in the Grand Final series because a.) it didn't affect who won but b.) highlighted to the NBL brass that the issue needs to be addressed next season as it is ruining the spectacle

Reply #469826 | Report this post


paul  
Years ago

You just need refs to not call charges when players flop.

Reply #469827 | Report this post


natwhereyouat  
Years ago

It's up to the refs to call it. But I must admit it's a pretty gutsy call to make either way when it's live.

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Beantown  
Years ago

No doubt Perth deserved to win the series, but I agree that the flopping in today's game was a disgrace. It's not just this game though. Unfortunately the NBL's refs prove time and again that they just aren't up to calling a balanced game. They are so easily conned and it affects the game to the point that away teams know that they can't attack the basket or play defence with any aggression. IMO the only way to win a final on the road in the NBL is to just shoot the lights out, because you're not going to be allowed to compete evenly on the physical side of the game.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

The refs have shown they are incapable of doing so, so it is time to instil fear in the players by techs and/or fines as they do in the NBA. Will make the refs jobs easier.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

"IMO the only way to win a final on the road in the NBL is to just shoot the lights out, because you're not going to be allowed to compete evenly on the physical side of the game."

Exactly. Makes the league less exciting. How many playoff series has the team without home advantage won in the last decade? Probably two maybe three tops.

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Vodka63  
Years ago

Hmm...I don't recall the outrage at the flops by Schenser and Teys in the first quarter of game 2.

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Poker  
Years ago

^^^ LOL

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Natwereyouat what if the league stepped in and fined knight after game 1. Puts doubt in players flopping for the rest of the series.

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paul  
Years ago

Agree there should be the threat of suspension from a league review for really blatant flops, but for plays where there is actually contact but not enough to warrant a charge it should just be a no call if the defender falls over.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

yep more no calls agreed

for acting to win a grammy type ones they should be fined.

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The Situation  
Years ago

Some of the calls that went in Perth's favour today were atrocious. As much as I'm happy to win, I'd kinda like to see a fair fight. Not to take away from Perths outstanding execution but it's silly to reward them for some of the things that did or didn't happen.

I'm also still hungover/drunk so I may rethink this comment later.

Commiserations to the Sixers and their fans. It was a great season for you guys.

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Jake  
Years ago

Perth deserved the win - best team all year and this series. Well done to the cats.

Redhage is the best flopper to ever play in the league and unfortunately that is what most people will remember him as - not a great legacy.

When commentators, past players, neutral fans are all calling you out on it not much else needs to be said. NBL needs to ban players from games next season to stamp this out.

According to Wildcat fans we had the 'best' umpire in the world and if he cannot pick a flop then what hope do we have unless players start missing games

Reply #469848 | Report this post


Mick  
Years ago

Techs are not the solution.

Referee training is.

The tech rule is currently in place and I've never seen it used on a wildly overt flop. I don't watch as much NBL as some, but I've only ever seen it used on 50/50 calls that could have gone either way. Which is not the intent of the rule.

Earlier this year for example I saw Russell Hinder called for a flop tech in what was an actual offensive foul (offensive player charged, but Hinder embellished the contact and took a dive as well so both parties were guilty. Wouldn't have been a flop under the NBA's interpretation because the contact was legitimate and Hinder didn't really sell it very hard but got whistled for the tech. This was in a one possession game with a minute or so left, which effectively ended the game right there on a stupid technicality.)

The NBA has done a great job of cleaning up flopping (albeit it's still very much a work in progress and will get better), and I don't think it's because of the fine system: it's because refs will more often than not get the call on the floor right and call a no-call a no-call, a charge a charge, and a block a block; regardless of theatrical embellishment and salesmanship.

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Mick  
Years ago

I would also like to add that as a neutral viewer of that game 3 (ie. not an Adl or Perth fan with a vested interest), I found the entire thing pretty much disgusting to watch as a basketball fan, and pretty much the worst advertisement for our sport I could think of.

Of course Perth would have probably won anyway, but that's beside the point, because the outcome had no importance to me as a neutral viewer. As sports entertainment it was entirely devoid of any value.

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The Situation  
Years ago

The league has created a rod for its own back with the flopping. They rewarded it for years in the Goorjian Kings era, a defensive player will not get a call unless he sells it, and the refs seem to want to either let contact go or call an emphatic charge. Sure, it's tough to make the correct interpretation on the spur of the moment , so I think a fine system should be introduced.

The refs have enough to worry about than trying to determine a guy falling over was legit or not, because they have got plenty of flop warnings wrong too.

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paul  
Years ago

Such a shame a great season by Perth is being somewhat overshadowed by this.

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Poker  
Years ago

Redhage is an arsehole.

He's the bloke who everyone hates (except Perth fans. obvs).

Fine him, deregister him, deport him.....blah blah (tongue in cheek).

Hope the league stamps out the flopping. Bad press is the last thing the league needs. Carfino didn't help by mentioning flopping consistently throughout the call.

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Marcus Camby  
Years ago

Well done Carcus.....

Refs = 34 point differential.

Seriously, the grapes...they are sour.

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Poker  
Years ago

I reckon the unwarranted* booing is just as bad as the flopping in terms of the spectacle / quality of product.

Adelaide are the worst fans for it. Hopefully this will ease off next year.

* Unwarranted is when it's premeditated and not spur of the moment based on something which has happened on the floor. ie; if someone strikes a home team player or flops badly or spits the dummy etc then booing is great (and encouraged). The idea of booing someone because they are a star is BULLSH!T and must stop IMO

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Reviews are the only answer, 4th ref in a booth. Warnings then tech then eject.. We would never see, Redhage, Hire, Wortho, Wagstaff, Goulding, MAdgen and Tomlinson again !!! While we are on that, add in travels too...…. Go back to the basics people, if a players jumps his feet into another players personal 'CYLINDER', and the player moves to exit it, then it is not a charge as you have invaded his space. It was not yours to invade, he was there first. Naturally you are going to fall back but it is still not a charge. And since when can a charge be called in the no charge circle……

I get the feeling Joey and the team knew mid 1st quarter how it was going to be played and called after the calls on Teys that were disgraceful and the hooking from Redhage and Hire. THen came the flops and heavy hands. Last years rules were back in force and Wildcats style of game prevailed and the academy awards commenced… Can't fight that and were never going to win, even if their shots dropped…. The boys looked like they knew it… Joey put this team together in good faith that the NBL would stick to its guns with the umpiring and open up the game and remove the thuggery that has seen top thug teams Cats and Breakers at the top for a few years now. This year it got off to a good start with the results showing with the Win Loss rations better than ever at the bottom of the ladder and anyone of many teams able to get the elusive 4th spot. Sadly it has all declined back to whence we were a year ago……

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Anonymous  
Years ago

In one of his time out speeches Joey told the players to play the same bullshit as the wildcats, obviously he liked the bullshit play otherwise he wouldnt want it incorporated into his game plan and wanted his players to imitate it, pity they didnt have it as down pat as the perth boys.

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bowtie  
Years ago

Whoops, sorry.
What exactly was Mal Cooper brought back into basketball to achieve?
To make it more entertaining and in Hollywood style ? (no pun)
The flopping must be part of that.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Joey could see there was nothing else to do as it was made quite obvious early in the 1st quarter that was how the game was to be played and reffed. Repeat of Game 1....It was a sarcastic comment…... I'm pretty sure that Joey said it loud enough in the hope that Cooper would hear it and take a look and speak to the refs at half time.. Obviously he didn't…… Sixers saw the writing was on the wall.. Time Warp back to last years reffing…… Thats the way the Wildcats play...

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alexkrad  
Years ago

Flopping doesn't make you lose by 34 points

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Anonymous  
Years ago

I also hate flopping,

We are not blaming the refs for the result, we all agree Perth would have won either way, they were the better team on the day and all season.

But there were a few shocking flops in that game.

This is how i would stamp it out

1. if picked up in the game its a tech foul, plus the player gets a $150 fine (remember these guys are not on NBA money) per incident.

2. Refs boss, watches all games back on replay, any flops picked up, obvious ones the player is hit with a $250 fine.

3. If a player is called up on it 3 times or more they are suspended for 1 game every 3rd time.

If the refs are unsure whether it was a flop or not as said let the play continue the guy lying on the floor is putting his team at a disadvantage, then again if its picked up in the review as a flop he gets fined.

I reckon that would go a long way to help stamp it out.

Flopping is cheating imo and needs to be stamped out, its funny how some of the biggest guys in the league can go flying with minor contact and the refs fall for it, i watch it and go there is no way that guy could push him that hard or push him that far, even if he wanted to, so surely the refs could atleast pick it up on video review after the game, it wouldnt be hard at all imo.

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Ricey  
Years ago

How didn't flops have an impact? You take those fouls out the game and there wouldn't have been any big Perth runs. Fairly simple idea to grasp

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Wookiee  
Years ago

There's a difference between the few really obvious (and disgusting) flops that Redhage did today, and the fighting for defensive position and having the ref call an offensive foul... You can't put Knight, (who would fall into the latter category, despite overselling a few things) in the same bag as some of the crap that Redhage pulled today... I don't think the thing with Carter was too suss, it certainly looked like Carter got all up on him, so it's not a stretch for the old man to take a tumble, Carter's reaction and subsequent refs call is entirely Carter's fault.

I just cringed whenever the defensive player wasn't set and instead of a line call being a no call, it was registered as an offensive foul... Fixing this, as well as an after-match review for the over dramatic soccer-like performances, I think will go a long way to tidying up the game. Like Mick (I think?) said above, we don't want to punish the 50/50 calls, as often the punishment outweighs the crime, we want to stamp out the dramatic ones and I think if the players knew that those sorts of things would get a review after the game and sanctions such as fines and suspensions for multiple offenders will get applied, we'll see them pull their heads in...

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Might as well bring in the Card system like soccer, instant effect...… Lets just do it and get this rot out of the game immediately.. It changes the game...

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Anonymous  
Years ago

The people saying the calls don't affect the bottom line in terms of the score have no GENUINE idea about sport. Yes Perth won comfortably Congratulations to the team who afforded the star studded line up.

It would be interesting to see if you went again and watched the game with pen and pad and accounted the fouls in the front court type/location/team in the first 5 mins of each quarter and then the calls later in quarters especially in the second if the stats would favour Perth in the offensive calls or not?

The reality is half you halfwits didn't even acknowledge the OP your too full of yourselves especially the CATS fans to agree that it was an UGLY game and your players were PISS weak on their feet - there were at least 3 poor form flops called charges that came from soft contact that the 6ers pushed through..

I agree the 6ers played themselves out of the game they lost it but also agree with another poster that they were affected immensely by the rubbish quality of the game.

IF THAT'S THE BEST NBL HAS TO OFFER MANY WILL GO BACK TO NBA

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Phil  
Years ago

i think the refs have shown an inability to correctly call flopping and it ruins the game.

i think having a weekly review whereby the nbl can review the games and hand out fines and even game bans for repeat offenders would stamp it out.

what are the cons of instituting such a thing?

i cant think of any bar the time/cost which should be minimal. i mean someone at nbl should already be reviewing games already.

the pros would be obvious. stamping out a hideous part of our game that has been getting worse. video review would allow people to make an informed choice and decision based on evidence.

if a player has been fined and knows the next time he does it he will fined much more or banned for a game he will be less inclined to flop and more inclined to stay on his feet and try to make a real defensive play at the ball, which is what we all love to see.

i mean , who wants to see matty knight fall over when you could see him make a defensive play at the ball? i know what fans would rather see and what is better for the game.

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GOSIXERS  
Years ago

Clearly the flopping has to stop. Mal Cooper really needs to look at this in the off season. Cats benefited from a lot of calls today and throughout the series, result could of been different overall. A lot of sixers fans and other fans not happy with the flopping and the way the Wildcats go about playing the game.

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Sixers took charges and got called for blocks because THEY DIDN"T FLOP


PATHETIC

Reply #469905 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Paul, How about Corletto and Bruton's continues flopping?

Reply #469906 | Report this post


Kev  
Years ago

What about the call on wag staff, where Cadee drove and jumped up/forward and passed then landed on/near wag staff and hit the deck like a sniper shot out his knees!

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FM  
Years ago

First call on Petrie for the game would have been a great call if Aylen called a double. Both players doing the wrong thing and initiating contact.

1 foul each simple education that if you want to carry on, it's going to cost you both a foul and no one benefits.

Reply #469908 | Report this post


Brian  
Years ago

I love it how people post like they were in the teams and some how team x winning was their doing, the charges/flops their fault.

Objectivity please.

Perhaps focus on what you'd like to see next season rather than dwelling on the terrible series we just had.

Bring on the NBA finals. They know how to rig a game so it's still close.

Reply #469939 | Report this post


Missed the point  
Years ago

I think the cats supporters are missing the point. I doubt you'd find a 6ers supporter that thinks the refs cost them the game. You can't win too many games scoring 60 points and shooting at 30%. That's what lost them game 3. That said something needs to be done about flopping next season. Seriously, the Perth court must be the cleanest in the league as every second play someone slides 6feet across the floor. No call would be a good start, then a few techs followed by reviews and fines. Wouldn't take much to get it out of the game. On the positive side great turn around from the sixers this season. Let's hope most of the group can stay together next season and go one step better.

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EC  
Years ago

Alexkrad, I've just read my 250th post on this grand final game and I don't think a single 36ers fan has said that the 36ers would have won this game if it wasn't for the refs' calls. There is however a lot to be said on how the game has been officiated and the disgraceful tactics employed by the Wildcats.

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EC  
Years ago

Also I would like to add, game 1 of the grand final series saw Perth 47 times to the free throw line compared to 13 for the 36ers. There was a lot of errors in officiating in that game that went Perth's way. The 36ers lost it by 7 points. What a difference this grand final series would have been if the first game was called fairly and then the 36er won the 2nd game at home. Today could have been a total non event.

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Dunkin' Dan  
Years ago

Boti just put a post about flopping up on his blog and as much as the timing seems like sour grapes I agree it's an issue that needs to be addressed, and pretty urgently.

If the NBL truly wants to grow in the Aussie sports market, it can't be a league renowned for exactly the type of shenanigans that the average aussie sports fan despises. We take the piss out of soccer for this stuff, and the NBL is at serious risk of being lumped into the same category if it continues down the current path.

This season was supposed to be about the benefit of the doubt returning to its rightful place - with the player on offence. That was very much the case early in the season. Gotta wonder how we ended up back here back at square 1 with what happened today.
As I joined in with a shitload of *trumpet music* "Charge!" shouts during the game today, I couldn't help but shout "Not!" after many of them, such was my guilt about getting those calls in our favour.

Have the refs forgotten that just not blowing their whistle is still an option for them?

I really don't blame the players for diving on board the flopping bandwagon. Seriously, it is smart to do so if the refs are rewarding them. Further to that, it's almost silly not to. Players who let their integrity as basketballers get in the way of their flopping are actually costing their team.

I really don't like it. I hate it when my team's players get in foul trouble because of it, and I feel bad when they're rewarded for doing it themselves. And it's bad for the game.

I really hope the NBL takes a legit stand on it next season and sticks with it.

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Marcus Camby  
Years ago

EC conveniently forgets that Adelaide also got home cooking on Friday and the Cats lost by less.

Reply #469975 | Report this post


Rod D  
Years ago

You are all missing the point these are prof players they like AFL NRL NBA or any other prof sport will take any advantache they can get its not cheating they are playing for there jobs

Reply #469976 | Report this post


The Situation  
Years ago

I said earlier that I was baffled by some of the calls and flops that Perth were being rewarded with. But as Boti has just said, EVERY team has floppers. Highlighting the "worst" or singling out those that play for a team you really dislike will not solve anything.

Reply #469979 | Report this post


EC  
Years ago

Marcus, it doesn't change my point. If game 1 was fairly called, it could have gone Adelaide's way. The 7 point loss was far less than the potential points that could have been gained if they didn't have to wear mistaken fouls. A 3 point win at home in game 2 would have sealed it.

Reply #469980 | Report this post


Steven  
Years ago

Could have, would have, should have, EC just accept the sixers loss.

Reply #469983 | Report this post


The Situation  
Years ago

EC, in game one Adelaide were playing very tentatively. They were shooting floaters and jump shots. You are not going to get rewarded with foul shots when you play like that. Perth were attacking the basket and that contributed to a lot of the shooting fouls.

I've said this before, at the end of the third quarter in game 1, the foul count was 20-16 (Sixers had 20). They were losing by 12. The foul count ended up being 26-19 (if you don't count the six intentional fouls in the final minute) yet Adelaide cut the margin to 7.

All that tells us is that repeating the discrepancy in fouls and free throws does not tell you that there is where the game was won or lost.

Reply #469984 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Hang now Marcus is anti sixers? U Radford Clarke bitch

Reply #469985 | Report this post


Jack Toft  
Years ago

Flopping is weak and pathetic. If we wanted to see stuff like that we would watch soccer

Reply #470002 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

^^ spoken like a sore loser.

Reply #470003 | Report this post


Maxymoo  
Years ago

Aaaaaah Jack - at half time with the lack of goals I thought you'd sent Adelaide Utd over

Reply #470004 | Report this post


Marcus Camby  
Years ago

Jack...so is kneeing other players in the groin and punching the opposition coach....but Sixers fans don't have a problem with that.

Reply #470005 | Report this post


Steven  
Years ago

Weak and pathetic is scoring 59 points in a grand final.

Reply #470008 | Report this post


Jack Toft  
Years ago

Flopping is weak and pathetic.

Reply #470009 | Report this post


Jake  
Years ago

Perth deserved the series win but game 1 officiating was a disgrace. 47 to 13 free throws. Take out the 5 fouls in the last 55 seconds and it is 37 - 13. Still seens lopsided to me. For the record game 1 was the most lopsided grand final game in NBL history. If you take the 10 foul shots off at the end it is the second most lopsided game but that game was 48 minutes long. Perth fans were crying foul after game 2 when there was a difference of 6 FT's. If these statswete reversed and you also were on the end of the flops you would questioning this as well

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Anonymous  
Years ago

Steven - were you blind that the Sixers fast realised that there was no point getting battered up for what was obviously going to be a no call at the basket game surrounded by Perths bigs and their grabs, hooks and dropped arms. At the other end it was pinged. The most calls for Sixers were open court weak calls to even up the count. It was exactly as SA expected it would be. Thats why Joey wasn't losing it and he sent on the rotations he did which were so far off what he has done all year. Gleeson still persisted in cracking it when 20 up and the refs had a stab at reigning in the dirty rubbish we thought was long gone, but the refs weakened and the game fell into disrepute as finals go. It was not a matter that Perth were amazing, but the Sixers souls had been crushed and they were just going through the motions and it showed with all the turnovers, lack of effort on the defence missed shots that saw a side that did not resemble the Sixers. MAny see it as a victory for NBL, but many see it as a worry for the future of NBL. These Sixers boys all have other commitments to honour and in honourable competitions that don't change the rules to get the results they want when they are feathering the nest for a new deal. After ENNIS kicking out a chair in Adelaide (that should have been addressed !!!!, tossing the trophy and Gleesons behaviour in Adelaide which was equal reffing both ways and a fair fight and what we in Adelaide consider our final. Cooper and the NBL should have stuck to their guns and kept the game clean from the get go. Instead they transported themselves back to last year. Adelaide should have just said Melbourne and Sydney do you want this one as that is their style of game. The rest of the league put together teams to play a different style. A style that suited the promised officiating that at Perth was non existent. We desperately need to go down the NBA route if other teams are to succeed and have a chance to stay alive in modern times. I was proud the the boys managed to contain themselves and how Peach didn't let one fly and Ervs controlled himself but they did. Power to them. Lets hope this gets fixed not just for Adelaide, but for all NBL teams and more importantly the future of Australian Representative Basketball or we will lose our home grown talent and less available to represent our great country.

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Wilson Sting  
Years ago

Carfino certainly fed the perception of flopping, I don't think it was too bad either way and in any event, it's the refs jobs to call the foul or the flop so it's their problem. Carfino also admitted to bias in his call for game 2 because he wanted to see a game 3. Time for Carfino to go I think, the commentating team to be lead by Jeff Van G.

Reply #470027 | Report this post


Wildcat Fan  
Years ago

Absolutely time for Carfino to go. His call of Game 3 was disgraceful. Really did initiate more fire into the whole flopping issue. Yes there was flopping, but Carfino made it out to be a lot worse than it actually was.

His call yesterday further reinforces a long time suspicion that he's always hated the Cats. And that is not good for the "lead" commentator.

Would like to see him go completely, or be relegated to colour commentary only (which he's good at) on a part time basis.

Reply #470050 | Report this post


Ballin Fan  
Years ago

I liked the fact that Carfino was highlighting the bad flopping, and by that i mean not the falling back in a charge/block situation, to me that's not flopping, i mean falling over when someome simply blocks out on a rebound.

Kudos to Carfino.

Flopping did not affect the result.

Flopping affected the spectacle.

Basketball in Australia is no longer my No. 1 sport.

Reply #470053 | Report this post


Steven  
Years ago

Are we that short on commentators that Steve Carfino is the best we have? Imo he should stick to kings games.

Reply #470054 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

I lost interest after Redhage started flopping, man I hate that guy.

Reply #470070 | Report this post


Poker  
Years ago

"I lost interest after Redhage started flopping, man I hate that guy."

+1

Reply #470073 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Flopping is an artform that needs to be taught at the junior levels and implemented in the right situations.

A player to flop correctly in the right situation can be game changing.

If you don't fall over to take a charge you don't get the call so you need to learn to fall over.

Also, if Petrie is going to bump me all the way down the court every step I take, I'll eventually throw my hands up in the air and act hurt and hopefully get a call, or at the very least get the referee's to start paying attention to the bumping that is occuring.

Reply #470077 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

WF,

No, Carfino just hates floppers. A few NBL greats were really pissed off with Flophage's antics yesterday.

Reply #470081 | Report this post


Vodka63  
Years ago

If Carfino was balanced, he would have made comment that there was no need for Carter nor Gibson to initiate contact with Redhage off the ball. They did, and he made sure the refs saw it. Carter then followed up with an undisciplined verbal spray that saw him get a tech.

Both incidents were a case of poor discipline from Adelaide players yet Carfino chose to focus on the reaction rather than the initiation.

Reply #470082 | Report this post


MACDUB  
Years ago

Think there are many things the league needs to fix up. Flopping is a significant one. So is the disciplinary system and the need to create tougher sanctions for unprofessional conduct.
Both ADL and PER have done some silly things this year - Perth with the flopping and ADL with Joey swinging and Ervin kneeing Goulding.

Neither team has being an angel this year.

I think the thing everyone can take away is that you shouldn't judge a team, its fans and the entire city based on what one or two persons did.

Ervin and Joey were the ones who made mistakes, so don’t go attacking everyone else connected with the team.

Redhage and Ennis were the ones flopping/acting like brats, so don’t go attacking everyone else connected with the team.

Reply #470083 | Report this post


The Situation  
Years ago

A few NBL greats are also hypocritical. I'm not sure why Sav has taken it upon himself to be captain of the Flop Police but he never seems to make mention of Demos, Hinder, Wortho and others flopping.

Reply #470084 | Report this post


jonno  
Years ago

I think most unbiased fans hate flopping, the only people who ever like that is when it benefits them, but to be honest i hate seeing it all times, and wish no one ever did it.

Stamp it out NBL, tech them, fine them, get them to stop, no matter what team they play for its ugly and ruins the game.

Reply #470086 | Report this post


Wildcat Fan  
Years ago

^ Yep - every team has its villains. Even the loveable battlers Wollongong and Townsville :) It just seems like an awful lot of attacking against big bad Perth.

Reply #470087 | Report this post


The Situation  
Years ago

I don't think anyone actually likes it, biased or unbiased. The bias is shown when certain circles only complain when one team, or a few players from that team, does it.

Reply #470088 | Report this post


Poker  
Years ago

I never thought Wortho was that bad for flopping.
I'll pay more attention.

Reply #470095 | Report this post


The Situation  
Years ago

I must admit, he isn't as bad as he used to be. That might be because he doesn't play with much effort any more ;-)

Reply #470098 | Report this post


Steven  
Years ago

If the NBL is serious about stopping the flops why don't they do something about it. Get tougher on it by all means. Perth are not the only floppers in the NBL despite what you read on this forum.

Reply #470100 | Report this post


bk  
Years ago

@marcus i'm an Adelaide fan and was outraged when Ervin kneed Goulding. I don't care what anyone did or said before that incident happened there is no excuse for that kind of behaviour. I was glad he was punished for it by being banned for a game

Reply #470123 | Report this post


The Situation  
Years ago

Jake, free throw attempts yesterday were dead even. Perth won by 34. Your stats mean nothing.

Reply #470128 | Report this post


Isaac  
Years ago

Video review is the only adequate option. Financial penalty or suspension (as Boti suggested) is the decision to be made. Something like Goulding in SF2 where it was a completely obvious flop should be penalised significantly to wipe out the practice.

Reply #470165 | Report this post


Jake  
Years ago

Saviour the victory @thesituation. We have all said the better team this year won the series.

But if you want to bang on then......

Game one was the most lopsided game in NBL grand final history!!! We now are only playing 40 minutes so it shows how lopsided it really was We lost by 7.

Your team and in particular Flopage has been called out by the media, ex players and neutral fans. Even ex wildcats players are embarrassed about his flopping. Great legacy to have being the biggest flopper in NBL history.

The stats over the series show the NBL we be reviewing this and that changes will be made. Look at the G2 thread and see all the Wildcat fans banging on

Reply #470198 | Report this post


Roger Murdoch  
Years ago

Game 3 would have been far better had the Perth Wild Flops not come out in force and the umpires had not seen it for what it was. If they cut that rubbish out they still would of won and the game and it would have been far better to watch, and a far closer contest. Some of what went on was farcical, Shawn Redhage is a disgrace, the quicker he retires the better and Matt Knight is not out there to impersonate a feather. As a sixes fan I think the club coach and players should all hold there heads high despite a game3 that was painful in the extreme. Perth had a fantastic team and know one could say they weren't deserving winners, we should just be talking about them being deserving winners but we are not. Every sport has its equivalent and no fan of any sport likes seeing it, the "GAME" is the loser in the end.

Perth you were awesome but look in the mirror if you don't like this thread

Reply #470210 | Report this post


noitautiS ehT  
Years ago

daerht siht ekil t'nod uoy fi rorrim eht ni kool tub emosewa erew uoy htreP.

Reply #470215 | Report this post


The Situation  
Years ago

Three years ago, Redhage was told he'd never walk again. It took him a while and a shitload of hard work but he has not only overcome that early prognosis, but has bounced back to have a great sesson and win another title. That is in no way an excuse for him to flop but for fans to pretend his flopping is all they'll remember him for, instead of what he has achieved, is pretty ordinary. Hell, I even wished Hinder well in retirement and I never had a good word to say about him.

Redhage deserves just a tad more respect than the shit he cops.

Reply #470217 | Report this post


Slammin'08  
Years ago

Respect is earned not just given. He may have earned respect for his comeback but has lost it with his unsportsmanlike conduct.

Reply #470224 | Report this post


The Situation  
Years ago

I still think the good far outweighs the bad.

Reply #470225 | Report this post


Rasheed30  
Years ago

I think a lot of Sixers fans would agree kneeing someone in the nuts or chasing another coach around a court is weak a piss but they were in old threads and we're talking about flopping in this one.

Redhage will tangle someone up and when they try get free will act like he's got shot.

I actually did the same thing he does to the man himself about 10 years ago and him and his team mates looked like they wanted to kill me.
I did it because I didn't have his talent or size and he was killing us. It was a last resort.

I understand you've got to sell fouls to the refs but he oversells it, especially with someone with his talent and size against someone half his size.

Reply #470233 | Report this post


Maxymoo  
Years ago

Hey 6ers fans easy fix - finish on top of the ladder and then you can sit back and listen to the morally courageous posters attack you (but you've still won so who cares).

Flopping is annoying but no way is it the epidemic being cited on here.

Also in regards to Redhage - Joey obviously gave instruction to rough him in game 3, bump ...bump..bump and he throws his hands up and gets the foul. Stupid coaching and it was Adelaide's ill discipline and questionable court roster that cost this game.

Personally I hope Joey believes his hard luck story, if flopping was eliminated through fines/fouls ...hate to break it to you - Perth still win.

Reply #470243 | Report this post


Slammin'08  
Years ago

I think a lot of people on here are confusing selling a foul and flopping. Selling a foul is legitimate play. That is when a playing charges into your chest and you go down or your are legitimately fouled. Flopping is when a player brushes against you and you act like Shaq just ran into you at full speed and then shot you. Contact is allowed in basketball. It is the over selling of 50/50 or even no calls that results in the refs calling an over the top number of charges or lose ball fouls that needs to be stamped out. Any game with 50 free throws taken is not fun to watch at all.the referees are 100% to blame as they are both inconsistent an easily influenced.

Reply #470244 | Report this post


Roger Murdoch  
Years ago

Maxymoo - as constantly stated Perth Deserving winners and are an outstanding team

The Situation - Respect is hard earn't and easily lost, you can't fight reality

Reply #470245 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Redhage was never told he wouldn't walk again, stop talking crap

Reply #470248 | Report this post


The Situation  
Years ago

That's fine but Gary Ervin's NBL career won't be defined by kneeing someone in the nuts or for starting a melee for no reason. He'll cop shit about it but he will ultimately be remembered for his good play and MVP season. I dislike him immensely but I'd be an idiot if I said "the sooner he retires the better"

Reply #470249 | Report this post


Steven  
Years ago

Anonymous you obviously don't remember the severity of Redhage's hip injury. It doesn't matter that most people east of the nullabor hate him he helped Perth to a title.

Reply #470252 | Report this post


The Situation  
Years ago

Thanks for setting me straight anon. You clearly understood the point I was making.

Reply #470253 | Report this post


Roger Murdoch  
Years ago

The Situation - Redhage is a cereal offender when it comes to over acting and flopping. That said " sooner he retires the better " will take that back, going too far. Wont defend Ervin on what you have mentioned.
Redhage is far too good to carry on the way he does and deserves to be criticised

Reply #470255 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Hang on you make a statement of fact that redhage was told he would never walk again. That is flat out incorrect and shows all to often idiots spew up crap like they know facts. You don't know shit little boy and everyone one of your posts reinforces that

Reply #470256 | Report this post


Rasheed30  
Years ago

Redhage is a player you love when he's on your team & hated when he's the opposition.
Of course being on one of the best performing teams who was again for the 3rd year in a row on the grand stage the finals are, highlights it even more.

He has a few years to play and if he continues with flopping it could tarnish what has been a great career. People can have very short memories.

In regards to hating on Perth I admit watching the Wildcats over the last couple years I noticed they seem to piss me off more than any other team and I hated all teams over the past decade because we've never been good enough.

It was little things like watching Wagstaff get in between people and the ball when they were trying to grab it and inbound the ball after a basket and Lisch was just anoying to me for no good reason but could really ball.

Martin is the one I couldn't stand a couple of years ago but love watching now .

Reply #470260 | Report this post


Steven  
Years ago

Cereal offender Murdoch. Think you meant serial offender. If you're struggling with English cats4life can give you some assistance.

Reply #470265 | Report this post


The Situation  
Years ago

Fuck off anon. I checked two articles since your outburst and both said that he was told he would never walk "properly". My mistake. It still doesn't change the fact that you're too stupid to understand the point, or have the maturity to correct my error like an adult.

Reply #470268 | Report this post


The Situation  
Years ago

"Redhage is a player you love when he's on your team & hated when he's the opposition. ".

Fair call, and I think that goes for players too. He's essentially a one-club player (yes, anon, I know he briefly played for the Breakers) so he hasn't built that rapport that plenty of other players have with each other.

Reply #470270 | Report this post


Isaac  
Years ago

I don't believe Redhage is especially liked by much of his own team. But yes, often a very effective player whatever you think of him.

Reply #470275 | Report this post


Maxymoo  
Years ago

Hey Roger - you hold that head high , Gibbo/Petrie bitching after any call, Carter propelling himself sideways in game 2 to get a charge on Ennis ....though you stay noble.

Dress it up all you like, I'm not bitter and Perth were the better team ....BUT....

Redhage is a champ and has the W to prove it.

You lost, build a bridge and if you want to attack faking - you got a couple of targets too.

Reply #470277 | Report this post


Jake  
Years ago

Defend Redhage all you like.

The guy is the biggest flopper in NBL history. He has been called out big time across the country after this series.

Ask some of the Wildcat legends what they think of the flopping.

When your own teammates disprove of your play and your not that well liked within your team it sums it up really.

Reply #470307 | Report this post


Poker  
Years ago

Sources for these "facts" or it didn't happen people.

Whom at the Wildcats doesn't 'like' Redhage and your source please.

Lots of big statements without basis here.

Reply #470309 | Report this post


YOLO  
Years ago

Redhage was set to leave the Wildcats 2 years ago. Perth fought hard to keep him by moving on the people he didnt like. Others haven't been given the same graces and have got pay increases to cover it.

Reply #470320 | Report this post


The Situation  
Years ago

Jake will hear and believe anything he chooses, and extrapolate it in to something he thinks is a fact.

Reply #470323 | Report this post


Maxymoo  
Years ago

Sorry Jake I was trying to speak to the Cats players but the flapping of the Championship banner, constant playing of 'We Are The Champions' and chinking of champagne glasses meant it was too hard to hear them

Reply #470325 | Report this post


Camel 31  
Years ago

knight looks the silliest, while flophage lovers enjoy it

Reply #470327 | Report this post


Roger Murdoch  
Years ago

Maxymoo - not talking about whinging to umpires talking about a " Serial " ( thanks Steven will be contacting cats4life for some much needed assistance ) flopper. No one is an Angel and everyone has their moments but Redhage makes an art form of it and does it constantly. Flopping is the most irritating thing in basketball and I hope people whinge long and hard about anyone who constantly does it as Redhage will continue to do. Have been complaining about Redhage oscar credentials for a long time. I take it you enjoy players getting a foul for a flop.



Reply #470331 | Report this post


Steven  
Years ago

Redhage supposedly not liked within his own team sounds fictional to me unless someone can prove otherwise.

Reply #470333 | Report this post


The Situation  
Years ago

"I take it you enjoy players getting a foul for a flop."

No not at all. I think most people's issue with this discussion is that criticism is only ever directed at Redhage. Is he the worst? No. He is up there as one of the worst though but we never hear about Demos, Hinder, Bruton, Madgen etc.

Do you guys actually want to stamp out flopping, or just find a reason to have a whinge about something Perth does....again?

Reply #470338 | Report this post


Roger Murdoch  
Years ago

Redhage IMO is the worst and his reputation is earnt, no not the only one clearly but he has brought this on himself. Why on gods earth would anyone not want to get rid of it. No one likes it, Perth most of all should see why its not good. Would it not be better if we were talking about a great 3 game series going to Perth in the decider and great crowds in Perth and Adelaide.

Reply #470342 | Report this post


The Situation  
Years ago

So stop talking about it.

Reply #470344 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Redhage is the worst by a long long way!

Reply #470345 | Report this post


The Situation  
Years ago

"Redhage is the worst by a long long way!"

Chalk that comment up as someone who is only complaining about it because Perth does it.

Reply #470346 | Report this post


Steven  
Years ago

Let it go Adelaide.

Reply #470347 | Report this post


The Situation  
Years ago

I think the league needs to stamp out hypocrisy. It's a blight on the game to see fans and players complain about the antics of one team, while ignore those same antics when its done by their own team, or former team mates.

Reply #470349 | Report this post


Roger Murdoch  
Years ago

Since my first post all Ive done is reply, if the NBL take notice I hope people keep talking about it until there is nothing to talk about.

Reply #470350 | Report this post


Perth fan  
Years ago

Look, I agree that Redhage is bad, but it's a problem that's been in the game for years. It comes down to the referees. If the players didn't have to 'sell' a foul, and the game called the way it should be interpreted, the problem wouldn't exist.
I may be showing my age but one of our all time biggest floppers/ exagerator of fouls in the league was also out most decorated, Andrew Gaze, with CJ Bruton a close second. Although I loved Gaze, I think the way the referees had him as a protected species started the ball rolling on the flop era. The same with CJ. Both legends of the game- but both academy award winners too!
So my point, yes Redhage flops (or sells fouls), but he isn't the first and unless the referring stops rewarding it, he won't be the last.

Reply #470351 | Report this post


The Situation  
Years ago

So you're making a mountain out of a molehill in order to try and take the shine of Perth winning again?

Reply #470352 | Report this post


Fact is he doesn't flop like a bitch when he's hitting the body on a screen or a dodgy ass hookup through the key! He's a blight on the game, a charge is a charge agree but selling it like he does is weak, Pathetic and he should have been Teched - Piss weak referees to blame.

Reply #470353 | Report this post


Jake  
Years ago

We have let it go. Wildcat fans are trying to defend the biggest flopper in NBL history. He has been called out by neutral fans, past greats, the media and you cannot accept it . Celebrate your win

Reply #470354 | Report this post


The Situation  
Years ago

We are not defending him Jake. We are saying he isn't the only one, and if flopping is such a blight on the game, why do these neutral fans (ha, thats laughable!) and past greats ONLY talk about flopping when its done by Perth.

Brian Goorjian is considered basketball royalty in this country and his teams, particularly the recent Kings teams, played almost exactly the same way as the recent Cats teams do. Thats why its just laughable that Sav keeps tweeting about flopping. He was always a poor sport though.

Reply #470356 | Report this post


The Situation  
Years ago

What does Andrew Bogut think about flopping?

Reply #470357 | Report this post


Nathan of Perth  
Years ago

Ring-ring!

Is it a telephone? No!

Is it a doorbell? No!

What is it?

Redhage's championship ring collection, of course!

Reply #470362 | Report this post


Poker  
Years ago

I'm a genuine neutral fan (dislike both Adelaide and Perth for differing reasons but ADMIRE the piss out of the Perth organisation and what they've achieved in Perth. Anyone who has been to Perth Arena should agree with me that it's the best game day experience by panels).

Anyway, back to flopping, the reason why everyone gets up Redhage is because he is so easy to hate. Someone in a previous post said he is one of those you either love or hate. His sportsmanship is appalling. He's an arrogant annoying arsehat. But he has game. He has a sweet jumper. To me he's the leagues worst flopper. Earlier this year I thought Wagstaff was at his level but IMO Redhage went to a new level post season.

The league does need to do something. Game 3 was a rubbish spectacle and a little embarrassing (as a neutral fan remember). IMO, Redhage does more harm to the brand than good.

Reply #470365 | Report this post


Jake  
Years ago

Good old Nate from Perth. The only man in the country that thought the umpires did a great job in Game 1 even though it was the most lopdided foul count in NBL GF history. Not surprised to now see you supporting the biggest flopper in NBL history

Reply #470372 | Report this post


The Situation  
Years ago

Jake, the only man in the country that keeps on blaming the refs despite being told repeatedly how misguided his justification is.

Reply #470374 | Report this post


Statsheet Stuffer  
Years ago

Both sides say they're misguided. Cearly no one's opinion is going to be changed, it's just sniping at this point, fellas.

Reply #470378 | Report this post


Statsheet Stuffer  
Years ago

Nevertheless, a good read.

Reply #470379 | Report this post


Steven  
Years ago

Agree with Statsheet a good read with Jake providing comic relief

Reply #470386 | Report this post


YOLO  
Years ago

Situation's because i said so attitude in arguments is boring and uninspiring

Reply #470397 | Report this post


The Situation  
Years ago

So you can't find anything to disagree with, just the delivery? Thats cool, says more about the substance of what you're trying to say.

Reply #470400 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

It's not fair to expect the Refs to police flopping. They struggle enough with the basic charge/block/no-call decision without expecting them to also adjudicate on the difference between exaggerating or "selling" the contact and an actual flop. "Get up!" is the most I would ever expect from a Ref.

If we want to eliminate flopping then it's up to the coaches and the players. If the coaches didn't at least silently condone flopping then it wouldn't happen. And if the other players ostracised the floppers then you'd think they'd learn pretty quickly.

Reply #470403 | Report this post


Wilson Sting  
Years ago

"It's not fair to expect the Refs to police flopping."

It may not be fair but it's their job!

Maybe a post-game review committee should review flops and other controversial calls and make statements about whether they got it right or wrong, and in the case of flopping maybe issue some fines or some other form of deterrent (eg three strikes and your out for a game).

But the NBL aren't really in the habit of dishing out serious penalties.

Reply #470407 | Report this post


Isaac  
Years ago

It's not fair to expect refs to effectively police flopping in real-time.

And no, coaches and players aren't going to do anything about it until there's a serious disincentive. Maybe make it a yellow/red card type situation. Blatant flop like Goulding SF2 is something like a red card and misses the next game. Something a little grey-area is a yellow with a suspended financial penalty attached. Second yellow means you cop the fine plus a game suspension.

There are players who just don't have that blatant cheating (which is what it is) in them. For any that do or are considering it, clean it up and keep it out of the game.

Reply #470421 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

You call flopping cheating. How about when players lie to the refs about not having touched a ball out of bounds. Do you regard that as cheating?

Reply #470440 | Report this post




 

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