Happy Days
Years ago

Melbourne Tigers to join SEABL.

Tigers will be playing SEABL in 2016.Asian backer stumping up the money with Gaze heavily involved playing out of MSAC.Picture will be clearer next week.

Topic #38585 | Report this topic


Anonymous  
Years ago

Yes its already in the seabl 2016 thread.

Reply #567880 | Report this post


LV  
Years ago

That's great

Reply #567881 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

with Gaze heavily involved playing

I have taken this completely out of context, although it was fun to do so and I hope Boti or someone runs with it....

Reply #567883 | Report this post


Anon  
Years ago

Let's hope the rumors of having funding for one year are incorrect and it is sustainable. Given the awful crowds at their Big V games and lack of success in the state league over the past couple of seasons it will be very interesting to see what has actually changed.

Reply #567888 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

What will happen to their Bigv State Champ team then? Will they have both? plus their youth teams?

Reply #567891 | Report this post


Anoniguy  
Years ago

He was never a good athlete, just have him camp at three and he'll give you 40..

Reply #567893 | Report this post


Baller6  
Years ago

Yes BigV crowds still not up to par, I can't see them sustaining a move to SEABL...

Reply #567907 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Big v team has been a joke for along time since seams pulled the pin on NBL guys playing back in 2008.

In bc v they really were only good in youth league to develop guys for college that then kicked into to other seabl or big v clubs when they returned hone

Reply #567919 | Report this post


Anon  
Years ago

Not in Big V in 2016.

Reply #567921 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

So if they stick in seabl then knox making move back to SEABL within 3/4 years big v can't be happy with it

Reply #567930 | Report this post


Astor  
Years ago

Does this mean the women's team is moving up too?! Even with an entirely retrofitted starting five with two solid imports they'll still lose every game by 50.. look at Albury with THREE american's last year and the starting point guard from the winning Hobart team prior

Reply #568003 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Suffer in your jocks Big V

Reply #568013 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Women's team will join SEABL in 2017.

Reply #568015 | Report this post


Bear  
Years ago

You can have SEABL and Big V teams, if you can afford it that is...

Reply #568113 | Report this post


HO  
Years ago

This really interests me.

Why would they do it?

When they were in the NBL, kids (parents) would join in droves because they saw that the "club" had a pathway to an NBL spot, no matter how unrealistic this actually was.

The SEABL is not that attractive to any kid, and there are multiple SEABL clubs in Victoria that a kid can join if that is really their goal. The SEABL is not really a pathway to anywhere these days, no better than any other league when you really analyze it, although I suspect the SEABL women's league is more important in this respect.

So to me, if the Tigers were using this as a stepping stone to getting back into the WNBL, it would make some sense, but for the men... what is the purpose?

Reply #568145 | Report this post


Deez  
Years ago

I disagree.. SEABL is a national competition that includes interstate travel which allows players to be seen by NBL coaches around the country. They also live stream games and get better media coverage.

Reply #568148 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

If you look at SEABL womens Comp a significant number of WNBL players including imports play in the Comp so if your young up and coming female it is certainly a very clear pathway to getting looks & exposure to WNBL players/coaches together with a good feel for travel & preparing for the next step up if your good enough.

The men's is bit less clear but a number of players have been signed to NBL programs out of SEABL recently but due to the nature of the men's game less current NBL guys come back and play compared to the women.

Still if your a young college returnee or men's player aspiring to NBL it is probably the most logical league to play in although potentionally playing for Cairns Marlins or the like in FNQ has been a good shop window to but I'd argue SEABL is still the best pathway we have

Reply #568153 | Report this post


jeff  
Years ago

HO.. The SEABL is "not" a pathway??? Ok.. Lets have a quick look at who is playing in NBL just this season who has come through the SEABL (even if they were at AIS)

Barlett/MacDonald (Breakers)
Knight/Redhage/Jawai (Perth)
Froling/Steindel (Crocs)
Weigh/Bruce (Cairns)
Sober/Teys/Hodgsen/Walker/Creek/Gibson/Petrie/Fisher (Adelaide)
White/Coenrad (Hawks)
Adam/Patton/Hill (United)
Carter/Hill/Garlepp (Kings)

25 out of 96 league players. Withdraw the 20 imports in the league, would make it 25/76. 30% is not attractive?

Reply #568154 | Report this post


Deez  
Years ago

Owen Odegie
Chris Patton

Reply #568155 | Report this post


paul  
Years ago

Guys who have actually debuted in the NBL in recent years via the SEABL is a lot smaller, most of the guys listed above were recruited from college or directly from juniors.

Reply #568156 | Report this post


Deez  
Years ago

Is there truly an honest discussion to be had about which league is stronger?? Really??

Reply #568158 | Report this post


LV  
Years ago

Shane McDonald is a long time SEABL player and debuted this year.

Imports from SEABL have included Rob Brown, Shawn Redhage, Troy Devries, CJ Massingale, Daequan Montreal, Dave Gruber, Dave Biwer (I think?)

In terms of Aussies from Big V and SEABL, It does seem to have decreased but thats probably mostly a result of 1. Having only 8 teams in the NBL and 2. Increased numbers of kids going to college in the US. Whereas more would have played SEABL- then NBL- years ago.

Reply #568159 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

College guys returning are getting more looks but a number seem to wash out of the NBL quickly and a few NBL coaches prefer to see guys come back through SEABL or state leagues first unless they are involved in boomers or bigger programs.

Reply #568168 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

This is a huge kick in the guts to the Big V...

Reply #568170 | Report this post


Bear  
Years ago

Some big statements there HO, do you have anything to back them up with?

You have mentioned analysis but have presented none, just comments, somewhat contradicting ones at that...

A pathway is what that particular Association wants it to be, no one else can determine it for them I wouldn't think.

Reply #568172 | Report this post


Dwayne Pipe  
Years ago

LV, this isn't MacDonald's debut season.
Singapore Slingers, and I believe also a stint in Perth before now.

Reply #568174 | Report this post


LV  
Years ago

Macdonald was a DP with the Tigers a few years back but he didnt get on the court. This is his first *real* NBL gig and he's been playing SEABL the whole time.

Reply #568179 | Report this post


LV  
Years ago

He played 5 minutes last time. Literally 5 minutes:

http://www.fiba.com/pages/eng/fc/gamecent/p/leagueid/AUS/ot/3/pid/6040133/season/2016/tid/6008012/playerview.html

Reply #568181 | Report this post


LV  
Years ago

Oops yeah sorry- you might be right about Singapore too.

Reply #568182 | Report this post


HO  
Years ago

Ok. The point of my post was not about SEABL, its about what Melbourne Tigers get from being in SEABL.

And I did differentiate between mens's and women's SEABL in terms of the Tiger's objectives.

I'll respond in another post about the SEABL stuff.

Reply #568183 | Report this post


HO  
Years ago

I have previously provided a view regarding the effectiveness of other league's in regard to players moving from 2nd tier to NBL. In particular QBL and SBL. The SEABL, IMO (just for you Bear) is over-rated these days as a pathway. Honestly, in the last 5 years how many players have genuinely gone from Juniors/College, honed their skills in a SEABL team, and gone on to an NBL career.

(I should differentiate again here, I think SEABL women is a very good second tier competition, and I do think it provides a very effective pathway)

15 years ago the SEABL was certainly an identified and effective pathway. Now though, most of the guys will choose College as their pathway, and return to either SEABL or NBL or another state league after College. Paul I think was indicating much the same.

As for imports, if we are providing the SEABL as a pathway for imports, we are all wasting our time and money.

And sorry Jeff, playing SEABL after you have played NBL (as a number of those guys have) does not make it a pathway.

Reply #568184 | Report this post


Happy Days  
Years ago

From my perspective I think the Tigers are dipping there toe in the water to see if there is an appetite for the Tigers to come back into the NBL.The question is who is stumping up the money to get this off the ground??? I'm hearing the money is coming from Asia but cant get any more info than that at this stage.

Reply #568187 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Your on the money. The next step is a season or two to build up to NBL in a few years time.

Money is coming from the Chinese investors who used to put cash in when they were last in NBL

Reply #568189 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

The "diminished pathway" debate is flawed on the men's side because there is a significant bottle neck at the top with only a handful of NBL teams available to progress to.

If we had 12 or 14 NBL teams you'd see far more SEABL players given opportunities at the next level.

As it stands SEABL provides a place for bench or fringe NBL players to continue to develop their game in the winter.

Reply #568192 | Report this post


jeff  
Years ago

HO. Overrated as a pathway?

To answer your question

"Honestly, in the last 5 years how many players have genuinely gone from Juniors/College, honed their skills in a SEABL team, and gone on to an NBL career."

I will now be honest.

Coenrad/Bruce/Sobey/MacDonald/Hodgson/White/Garlepp/Petrie/Adnam/Patton etc.

What you fail to understand is that athletes have a variety of pathways they can follow. They plug into that pathway and plug out. No one pathway is better than the other, because it is specific to in the individual and dependent on how good those programs are at developing talent. The state leagues have some very good programs as an example that can develop talent, but the stats of progression from those pathways are not as strong as the SEABL. Likewise first year out collegiate prospects also can not boast a direct link into the NBL, because many must first prove themselves at SEABL level first. Why? Because the NBL is the best in the country - it is tough to get a spot on a roster.

But as a league - stats don't lie when you talk about the SEABL. How and in what way is the SEABL over rated as a pathway? What facts do you have? What statistics do you have that show otherwise? I have highlighted 10 players who have progressed through this pathway to NBL for this season alone and now have a career in the NBL.

The defense rests its case because quite clearly you have shown you threw your statement out there without thinking about it first or with any facts.

Reply #568209 | Report this post


paul  
Years ago

Coenraad was recruited straight of college wasn't he? And I'm pretty sure Hodgson and Patton became Melbourne DPs straight out of college.

Garlepp came into the NBL via the SBL (as did Jervis and Hire) and bounced from Perth to Adelaide to Gold Coast to Sydney. White developed through the Waratah League.

In terms of true recent SEABL success stories, Shaun Bruce is a good one, Petrie a ripper and Sobey looks promising. Lucas Walker and Daniel Dillon are good 'missed out the first time and got in via SEABL' stories, while Macdonald so far has been way out of his depth after years in the SEABL.

As someone said above, it's a place for fringe players to work on their game in the off-season, but no better than the QBL in that regard.

As someone else said though, expand the NBL and then the SEABL probably becomes more relevant as a pathway, but without structure I don't think it will ever be a true second tier comp.

Reply #568216 | Report this post


paul  
Years ago

That should say "without a restructure".

Reply #568218 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Can I ask Happy Days where you got your info from?

Reply #568230 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

The china investors have also been involved in the gaze mid-season SEABL tours to China so it's all a big circle do to speak re this investment. Don't be surprised to see the SEABL Tigers tour China pre & post season as this will help fund/cover the sponsors effortd

Reply #568237 | Report this post


HO  
Years ago

Sorry jeff, been busy.

First, I don't fail to understand anything. Not sure how you could determine that from what I has said.

I also think Adnam is a great story and I think Petrie is fantastic example.

However Petrie has been in the league for more than 5 years, and as Paul has pointed out, quite a number of the guys you have mentioned actually signed out of College. McDonald signed his first NBL contract in 2007. Sobey I think played a dozen or more SEABL games before signing NBL, you would suggest that College was his pathway, rather than SEABL - its hardly a case of "honing your skills". Coenraad has only played SEABL since joining an NBL club.

So you have highlighted 10 guys, but not all have progressed through the SEABL to the NBL. Through is the operative word here.

As for over-rated, the passionate defence here is a good example. I am not talking down the SEABL, it is a good league, but it just is not the "pathway" everyone thinks it is.

Paul mentioned White coming through Waratah, and there are a bunch of others who came through QBL, SBL or even Central.

Reply #568321 | Report this post


HO  
Years ago

Happy Days,

Does anyone realistically think that will happen? Will United ever concede the name?

Reply #568327 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

It's not a lot of money really. Sure not every club needs to be in the Seabl but in terms of career path etc for the kids coming through it is the next best step before the NBL.

Reply #568332 | Report this post


Happy Days  
Years ago

Personally i wouldn't be putting my money up but why else would they be trying.There must of been discussions with United or they would not of bothered.

Reply #568345 | Report this post


HO  
Years ago

@568332

For Tigers, who are a club without the backing of a local association base, it is a lot of money.

Reply #568347 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

LK won't be around forever

Reply #568349 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Do United own the name?

Reply #568373 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

2 season to go for LKG. Most of his money and the NBL's will now be wasted on the Bullets.

Reply #568381 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

& he'll be tipping in to the Kings soon too oh and Adelaide!

Reply #568384 | Report this post


Anoniguy  
Years ago

Bullets will have Bendat money.. I'm sure they probably won't be given or need much help from LKG or the NBL.

Reply #568385 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Strange than that the bendant people withdrew some time ago.

Reply #568395 | Report this post


jeff  
Years ago

HO you show no understanding of a pathway. So SEABL is over rated as a pathway - how?

Reply #568588 | Report this post


Bear  
Years ago

HO, I feel you are placing emphasis on SEABL as the pathway to the NBL and this is your afguement, however many see the SEABL as a pathway for juniors and not necessarily just there as a feeder to the NBL.

Many see SEABL as the pinnacle, and I don't see any problems with this either...

Reply #568596 | Report this post


Bear  
Years ago

Sorry for typo, but if the Tigers are seeking to establish a pathway for their juniors and it is the SEABL they choose, good for them.

Numbers are irrelevant, how many go to the AFL through the VFL compared to the draft, does this make the VFL a non-pathway, no it just makes it another option, which is what SEABL is for those who go that pathway IMHO...

Reply #568597 | Report this post


jeff  
Years ago

well said Bear. People plug in and plug out of pathways all the time. Specific to the individual

Reply #568600 | Report this post


I just don't know  
Years ago

Melbourne Tigers are a very rare entity.

They are not association based. Players (parents) go there for the Gaze history and the chance to play for Melbourne Tigers.

The new kids that go to Tigers are usually pretty good if you look at what teams the new kids transfer into. A team can only have to two transfers per season.

If you look at who is coaching the BigV teams, seniors and youth league at Melbourne Tigers they are trying to keep the kids who make the juniors strong. Especially on the men's side.

Melbourne Tigers have dominated U/18's boys but have not converted this to youth league lately. The argument then is because our best players go to the AIS or college (Division 1 so they can not come back and play Youth League).

In Victoria you can have only a SEABL team or a BigV senior team not both.

Melbourne Tigers you either love them or hate them. No middle ground.

If they can keep the kids they will be a very strong SEABL team in 3 - 5 years on the men's side and probably quicker on the women's side.

SEABL is the pinnacle for many basketballers in Australia.

Reply #568623 | Report this post


Bear  
Years ago

In Victoria you can have both a SEABL team and a Big V Men's senior team. Just to correct you on this fact^

Reply #568629 | Report this post


Bear  
Years ago

Women too...

Reply #568630 | Report this post


I just don't know  
Years ago

Sorry Bear you can not have both.

Geelong have two different organisation, that is how they get around the loophole.

Geelong Supercats (SEABL) and Geelong Association (BigV).

BigV players need a clearance to play SEABL. Geelong Youth League can not play in SEABL.

Geelong is administrated by one organisation though.

Reply #568675 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

Y have both thou? Just spend the cash on SEABL and focus there! Geelong only club whom have seniors in SEABL & Big v dub 1

Reply #568677 | Report this post


HO  
Years ago

Jeff, you rested your case I think....

Bear makes a good point about the SEABL being the end of a pathway, that is a reasonable thing to propose and if that is the Tigers goal that is a reasonable thing also. Bear.. I have largely been responding to Jeff - what did he take the pathway to mean?

You took it to mean pathway to the NBL didn't you Jeff. After all, in your own posts you tried to point out, erroneously as it has now been established, how many players got to the NBL through SEABL. So you were viewing the SEABL as an NBL pathway.

All I saying, and have said many times on this forum in other threads, is that the SEABL is a pathway, but its hardly the imperative pathway that it was. (in this regard, it is over-rated by many)

That is a function of many things. College has become the "must do" after juniors for almost all kids, the other leagues (as others have pointed out) have provided plenty of players, etc, and as even more have said, the reduction in the number of places in the league.

There was a time, when the NBL played winter, and being in an NBL linked SEABL team was almost a given in the South-Eastern states. The NBL moved to summer and that was weakened.

The next impact on the SEABL pathway imperative was the removal of the full time AIS participation. But lets not mistake this, kids didn't go the AIS to play SEABL (as you yourself sort of said Jeff), they went to the AIS because it was probably the best finishing school in the world at the time.

Now we have almost silhouette participation in the SEABL by the AIS and I think that is good for those kids that they are back in the SEABL.

I think Paul has summarised it best, the SEABL is now a league that is... "a place for fringe players to work on their game in the off-season, but no better than the QBL in that regard."

Here is the simple summary for you. Once upon a time, as a graduating junior or returning College player, the SEABL was first choice, often for both NBL Coaches and the players themselves. These days there is no damage done coming back and playing QBL or SBL or even Central provided that the NBL Coach can see you are working at your game, in a good structure etc. There are still players spending their off season in the Waratah, and its generally considered a poor league, but it doesn't seem to be harming those players.

Reply #568680 | Report this post


Bear  
Years ago

Interesting, poster @I just don't know, how is it then that Bendigo has SEABL and Big V youth league, so does Dandenong, Ballarat, etc etc........

Geelong Big V play as Supercats, so do the SEABL, yes you can argue there is two legal entities, but if there is a loophole, so be it, others can also exploit it if they choose I would have thought?!

Reply #568753 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

BigV Management changes the development pathway for Geelong
deananglinNovember 2, 2015Big V, News, SEABL
Youth League Men


As the McDonald's Geelong Supercats finalise teams for the 2016 season, special consideration has been given to a change forced by BigV Management. Since early discussions between Geelong Amateur Basketball Association (GABA) and the Geelong Community Basketball Association (Geelong Supercats) began in the early 2000’s to form what is now known as Basketball Geelong Inc. an exemption has been in place to allow players from Basketball Geelong’s Youth League Men’s and Women’s teams to play and develop with the SEABL Supercats program. The exemption is necessary as the Licence for the SEABL teams remains under the ownership of GCBA and is simply licenced to BG to manage.

On Thursday the 1st of October Basketball Geelong was officially notified that BigV were removing the exemption that has been in place for many years. An exemption that allows for Geelong’s Youth League players to move between BigV and SEABL for their development. Despite appeals to this decision for the last 12 months, BigV management have decided to remove this exemption and therefore change the development pathways for the regions elite and developing players.

Basketball Geelong CEO Dean Anglin said "In a review of the past couple of seasons, it’s clear this decision will have a greater impact on our developing female athletes which is very disappointing. Players such as Ange Morris and Tiarna Rolph last year played U18’s, Youth League and SEABL and there is no doubt they have benefited from the game time gained in U18’s and Youth League and the exposure to elite basketball at a SEABL level"

“Our selection decisions need to be about not only this season, but also about what’s best for the next generation of Supercats players and that has definitely affected our thought process for the season ahead. Having the best 18-22 year olds sitting at the end of the bench playing limited minutes may not be the best choice in 2016”

Certainly athletes ready for the rigours of elite programs at 18 do come along once in a while, but for the most part, there is a period of development and integration required and for male players that can often mean 2-4 years at college in the USA before they get an opportunity at a SEABL level. While the differences are broad between AFL and basketball, players don’t get drafted in the AFL until 18 years of age and rarely play out a full season in the senior team, rather we see those players field opportunities intermittently, and a focus on their longer term development in place. This change will affect the opportunities for some players to get this all important senior exposure in the coming season and potentially beyond.

Basketball Geelong believes that another Victorian club is set to present a motion at the BigV AGM on Saturday 28th November allowing for SEABL clubs to also enter a team at the BigV Senior level resulting in a change to a 3 team structure and allowing for restricted player movement between all teams. Should this motion be passed, Basketball Geelong would complete its merger with GCBA and transfer the licence of the SEABL teams to Basketball Geelong, once again establishing the pathway for all players of the Supercats family. However, if the motion is defeated at the BigV AGM Basketball Geelong will need to consider the opportunities for further appeals to the decision, or the ongoing structure of the McDonald’s Geelong Supercats program to ensure we have the best program possible to develop home grown talent for the SEABL Supercats.


Anyone know the outcome ?

Reply #569233 | Report this post


paul  
Years ago

"Numbers are irrelevant, how many go to the AFL through the VFL compared to the draft, does this make the VFL a non-pathway, no it just makes it another option, which is what SEABL is for those who go that pathway IMHO..."

That's not a good comparison. Sam Mitchell, Michael Barlow, James Podsiadly, Michael Hibberd, Josh Gibson, Mark Baguley, Isaac Smith, Aaron Davey etc have graduated from the VFL to have really successful AFL career, you can't go close to matching that list from the SEABL to NBL.

Reply #569243 | Report this post


Bear  
Years ago

@paul, you have missed my point completely mate.

Reply #569415 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

#569233, the motion was heavily defeated.

From what I hear it was only the SEABL clubs that showed any interest.

Reply #570056 | Report this post


Anonymous  
Years ago

#569233, the motion was heavily defeated.

From what I hear it was only the SEABL clubs that showed any interest.

Reply #570057 | Report this post


GreenB  
Years ago

SEABL clubs seem to have little regard for the smaller clubs

Reply #570582 | Report this post


Bear  
Years ago

Throw away comment right there^, I think you may also find the opposite true to be fair...

Reply #570612 | Report this post


GreenB  
Years ago

^ What do you mean? The little community clubs have no regard for the big influential powerhouse clubs that are almost professional playing SEABL and Big V???

How dare they. Maybe the should be stamped out and exterminated immediately.

Reply #570624 | Report this post


paul  
Years ago

"@paul, you have missed my point completely mate."

Not really, I didn't say is was a bad point, I said it was a bad comparison to try and make it.

Reply #570632 | Report this post




 

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