Killer
Two weeks ago

Tech Fouls

Watched an u18 div 1 game recently, don't really need to name teams or venue, but during the first 2 minutes of the game a tech foul was given for little more than the player questioning a non call. He was not abusive, did not raise his voice nor were there any previous warnings given to any player or team. I would have thought if the ref didn't like being questioned maybe a warning would have sufficed.
Maybe because it was early in the game he wanted to make a statement this wasn't going to be tolerated to set the stardard . But no, there were more and more questioning of calls, raised voices and language being used during the remainder of the game with no penalties following. So my question i suppose is are our refs being a little pedantic and inconsistent these days? These are the sort of things which create angst amongst players, coaches and spectators and refs must realize they bring this pn themselves. Rant over !!

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Anonymous  
Two weeks ago

Usual small penis syndrome.

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Ingles13  
Two weeks ago

Was it at Pasadena and favouring the blue team ?

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FM  
Last week

2 minutes in and starts whinging. T sounds good especially if the other 2 or 3 calls in the game had received too much noise after the call.

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Killer  
Last week

FM, Don't think you read the post properly. Didn't raise his voice, wasn't abusive and definitely didn't whinge. Questioned a call very calmly without a raised voice and with no previous warnings a tech. Seriously if the ref didn't like being questioned he could of just warned the player. Then for the rest of the game both sides got away with much more serious language with no penalties. Just get sick of these Refs who believe they are bigger than the game and answer to no one.

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FM  
Last week

No name of teams involved, no venue, no time.

Ever think the ref didn't want to do that game for a myriad of reasons however no one else would do it. 2 minutes in player wants to look at them oddly, that would be enough for most refs.

If I punch a player, do I need a warning or should I be ejected.

If I abuse a ref why does the population think they need a warning. Warnings are there as a in-between for a punishment versus no punishment. Also covers situations which might be above the level of the players, eg reaching over the end line. Needs a warning in kids basketball, I wouldn't warn an adults game.

You state the rest of the game. Ever thought at timeout refs discuss stuff and adjust accordingly. If the poor ref just come off a crap game with whinging parents, coaches etc and then cops this crap 2 minutes in, good call. Next time the two get together they discuss how pissed they were, mention probably a bit harsh and thats it.

Because some of the great old refs are deceased I won't mention names but a few would have no hesitation at calling a tech 10 seconds into the game for something simple as saying nicely "what, the foul is on me?" They refereed every level in the world but if you got them on their bad day, it was your bad luck. Others use to let all hell break lose and only call disqualifying fouls and call the game off. No techs called at all.

Instead of posting this on forums, should educate the kid who was T'd up this early in the game. Likely needs a good role model and supportive family figure.

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Anonymous  
Last week

Killer in the good old days refs were respected for being there. There was conversation because a referee and players/coaches/spectators had respect for each other.

This forum is an example of that respect no longer existing. Referees get blamed for rule changes made by those well above them. Referees get blamed for enforcing a rule which someone just doesn't like. Or for simply doing what they're instructed to. Or just because a coach or parent disagrees its like they have a right to make the referee know that.

There's a difference between a legitimate question and the stock standard reaction hid behind a question.

End of the day both sides are to blame for the change in behaviour and communication between teams and players. Happens across every sport. People are just so much more self important and entitled to an opinion these days. And have zero respect for anyone else.

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Ricey  
Last week

I'm guessing a certain female ref at Hilcrest? Known for slanging our techs for so much as a whisper. If so, she’s the one with the temper who can’t be controlled.

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DJ  
Last week

Not too many years ago umpires communicated with coaches and players. Explanation, chat and even a bit of a laugh. Mutual respect.

Haines, Durant, Welbourn all good examples.

Unfortunately that appears to be a lost art.

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Anonymous  
Last week

I've said it before and I'll say it again - basketball (and many other sports) need to have a look at rugby union and how players mouthing up at refs is not acceptable. There is barely any complaining because the players know it is a sendable offence if you do more than ask politely about a call.

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Anonymous  
Last week

mouthing off*

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Anonymous  
Last week

Players, coaches and parents have absolutely zero respect for referees these days and comparing referees to those older referees is completely pointless as these referees are most likely under the age of 25. How were your communication skills at 17? Especially with 10+ adults, who should know better might I add, screaming at you? These referees are out there learning every single game. They are generally thrown out in the deep end or made to do 3-4 games a night due to the lack of numbers because of players and parents like the ones you are describing screaming abuse. How would you like to spend your Friday night be abused for 3+ hours? Yeah I'd like to think you have something better to do as well.
Maybe reconsider the way you and your children and their team speak and treat referees and then have something to say. Next time you go to a game consider how you’d feel if it was your child being screamed at by a stranger and if someone is screaming abuse maybe tap them on the shoulder and let them reconsider their choices as well. Otherwise go play tennis or golf or find something else better to do with your time then abuse referees.

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Ricey  
Last week

The respect given to referees has dropped off at the same decline their ability to call a game, communicate with players/coaches and general attitude has dropped.

Why would you expect to be shown a huge amount respect when you're clearly going through the motions most the time and show no interest in earning the dollars you’re getting to be there.

I remember in juniors most the referees being able to communicate with the most volatile players and coaches, and explain why they made a call. Generally they wouldn’t Agree after, but they would at least be able to step back and see the others perspective. That doesn’t happen anymore. Subsequently the players and coaches get angrier and verbally abuse the refs eventually. It’s no shock.

Doesn’t help the refs are being told to call some terrible stuff, or when they stuff up the people who are meant to teach them better don’t do a thing.

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Ricey  
Last week

And the age part is ridiculous. How old do you think the likes of Welbourn and others happened to be 15 years ago when they acted relatively the same, if not better, than they do today.

Hell you've got guys like Darren out at hilcrest starting the trash talk. Yet throwing techs out as soon as somebody responds to his obvious baiting.

It’s not just young refs screwing up, it’s a great deal of these older refs who only seem to have a job due to a lack of any other identifiable talent to fill the void.

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AD  
Last week

"questioning a non call" means he got in the refs face for no reason, possibly whilst the game was still in progress.

"during the first 2 minutes"
So the game has barely started, and already this kid is giving attitude??

And who knows, maybe this kid is a repeat offender, and his coach doesn't pull him into line.

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Ricey  
Last week

AD I think Killer is saying there was no call made, and that the player was questioning why it wasn't called. You know, when you get fouled and the ref says play on.

Go to any game today and listen to the refs constantly tell the defence to keep hands out or something for an entire play then not call the foul when the offensive player goes for a shot, or makes a pass. Why make 100 verbal warnings if no foul is being made. That kicks off everyone’s tempers in the first play of the game, then it spirals downward.

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Anonymous  
Last week

it's a cycle that isn't going to end without some significant change is the point both sides seem to agree to.

Yes some referees could communicate in a time when both sides communicated differently. Some still can.

The cycle has resulted in less experienced referees doing more games and games above their level. Which results in poor decisions which results in more abuse...

It's a cycle. One that has been ignored by those with the power to change it (from both sides) for 10+ years.

The ONE group not to blame is the actual referee on the court. Management yes. Referee education and resources yes. People who abuse referees yes.

Referees that are willing to go out there under these conditions are not to blame, but the only ones who seem to get all the abuse and blame.

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Ricey  
Last week

How are referees not to blame for their own actions?

You surely don't get a steak at a restaurant and ask to speak to the chefs old head chef about how this current chef has managed to send out a great piece of meat well done when you asked for medium rare!

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Ricey  
Last week

In other words. No one person is to blame, but everyone plays a part.

Especially the adult refs who've been around long enough to know better

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Anonymous  
Last week

Been around long enough doesn't necessarily make them good. Plenty of players around who have played for a long time that still aren't NBL quality too.

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Ricey  
Last week

Didn't say that it means they’re good. Clearly said they should know better.

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Killer  
Last week

There were no abusive parents from both sides this game, actually very calm. Yep point taken from previous poster that this particular Ref could have been treated badly the game before. Yes also both Refs were as young as the u18s playing so also point taken they are probably thrown in the deep end and umpiring higher than they should. U18 Div 1 Men would ideally have at least 1 experienced Ref officiating and show some consistency, let the really minor contact go and let the game flow. Anyhow in this particular incident a warning would have sufficed. Previous poster, nothing to do with Hillcrest or a certain lady there.

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Killer  
Last week

I also acknowledge it's a very difficult job which requires really deep skin for the abuse they cop. I just would like maybe a bit more communication and respect from the Refs towards the players and also vice versa. I'm sure this would improve relations from both sides of the fence.

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Hanging Round  
Last week

So it sounds like Woodville got a crap call at Pasadena.
No Surprise that it happened there.
"If" a ref had a bad previous game and got abused (deserved or not), surely UIC should have spoken to him/her and suggested they put it aside and start again.
Hopefully not advised to 'take control' in next instance.
A little communication during a game can go a long way and as previously mentioned, the Ref won't change a call, but their version of the incident could go a long way to better understanding and respect.
Should a ref be tired and emotional after a hectic night, a change to rosters seems to be a simple solution surely

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Anonymous  
Last week

Hanging Round the Friday rosters are done centrally so referees are moved all over to various venues. Your comment is basically calling the referee a cheat and that all Pasadena refs look after Sturt, a subtle way of calling them cheats. Gee I wonder why there's an issue.

A change of roster isn't possible. When people are begged and thrown on games to cover a roster do you really think it's simple to just take someone off. And replace them with who?

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Hanging Round  
Last week

What I am referring to was a previous comment 'suggesting' refs may be covering 3-4 games and it was alluded that constant abuse may lead to some ‘strange’ calls.
I suggested a rest, preferably having 1 game off, not replacing the Ref during a game. That would be a stupid move.
I simply agreed with Ingles13 that it may have been a game at Pasadena which Killer referred to.
Not cheats, just many dubious calls made.

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Anonymous  
Last week

Referees do 3-4 games because they have to. There aren't the numbers for them to do less. I understood the point you were making, I'm telling you that isn't possible.

Dubious calls is a nice or gutless way of saying cheat.

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Anonymous  
Last week

There is a meme going around with 2 Dads on the sideline. One says to the other..."which one is your son?"
"why do you ask?"
"Because I want to start abusing him every play!"
"you cant do that he is just a kid!"
"why cant i? you have done it too my kid all game"
"which is your kid?"
"the referee!!"

Its not acceptable to abuse 15 year old players, why is it acceptable to abuse 15 year old refs?

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Hanging Round  
Last week

I think Killer mentioned that there was no abuse, no raised voice, just a query THEN the Tech Foul
Tough job umpiring any sport with 2 teams playing. Never going to please them all.

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Killer  
Last week

Hanging Round & Ingles 13. I purposely haven't named the venue or the teams as i thought it may identify a young referee doing a touch job. But one thing guys it wasn't Pasadena as Ingles 13 has wrongly alluded to. All I'm saying here is that I'd like to see an older more experienced Ref doing 18-1s and maybe mentoring the younger Ref into not making silly soft calls at this level. Too often this season we have had to many young kids umpiring this level and they are out of their depth. Not their fault, they are rostered that way which is unfair on them and puts them under too much pressure.

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