instead of gliddon and sobey he should of brought 2 of the awesome guards who were available. I won't name them because it is so obvious but there were definitely 2 NBA type aussie guards who were available for sure and would of made a huge difference. real talk because I am not a moron.
Judging by the poor grammar in the OP I think Dave is on the loose.
Get over yourself while the 2OT loss to Spain and today's loss are a bit hard to swallow finishing top 4 is an acceptable outcome.
This will be the only tournament we will finish higher than USA, don't see that happening again anytime soon.
ingles, baynes, mills , bogut, adel, delly should really be bench players for the team . My starters for Tokyo :
Plenty of athleticism, depth in this lineup without any weak link.
I know that the nba picks young guys based on potential. And that often, that potential isn't realised.
And that despite that potential. Some of these players only spend 3-4 years at the end of the bench in the NBA before moving on to give space for some other kids with potential to take those spots on the off chance they might be good enough to contribute.
Doesn’t mean they are better than someone else. Just that one person thinks that they have potential. Chances are that Maker will be out of the NBA in the next few years. And Bolden as well.
Won’t mean that they are terrible. Just that someone with 'potential’ is being given that opportunity.
Just another poster
Complain all they want. I extremely doubt they'll sack Lemanis just over 9 months away from Olympics prep. After that, regardless of the final result he'll be gone, there's a changing of the guard and I don't think his coaching style fits in well with the newer players. Simmons, Green, Maker et all would probably prefer a more nba friendly system.
Sorry, but IMHO Jingles didn't play well this tourney and tried to do too much of the ball carrying duties (whether by instruction or not). Imagine a Simmons (or even Exum) attacking the rim and kicking it out to Jingles, Party, CG to drop those bombs.
Fact - Simmons in this squad and we would have walked away with a medal.
Australia has a great generation of NBA players. But so do a lot of other countries. When you are winning two crutial games and then fade out last quarter it could be saying something about our depth. I'd like to see more Aussies succeed playing in Europe if they're not going to make the NBA. Anyway, two fourth places in a row is not a bad achievement. Australia played some great basketball and the nation should be proud.
"I extremely doubt they'll sack Lemanis just over 9 months away from Olympics prep. After that, regardless of the final result he'll be gone, there's a changing of the guard and I don't think his coaching style fits in well with the newer players. Simmons, Green, Maker et all would probably prefer a more nba friendly system."
I agree with this. Unless Lemanis can show he can evolve significantly - as Henare as done impressively with the Tall Blacks to embrace their new generation - then 2021 is a good time for a new coach.
Dare I say it Rob Beveridge's style would be a great fit for our athletic, versatile generation coming through.
However, at the end of the day, there isn't time for that new style to be embedded before next year, and the next group don't yet have the international experience to play with the best teams. This current group under Lemanis has performed better than any Australian team at both the Olympics and WC.
Yes we have talent, but the international game has never been tougher, there are 7 legitimate medal teams at the moment (USA, Spain, France, Australia, Argentina, Serbia, Lithuania) and we are a very good chance of medalling next year if a couple of our young athletes are available to complement our core group.
Boomers only lost 2 games all tournament. They happened to be fall at the end. When was the last time we did that well?
We were obviously cooked by the end of the tournament. With a bit more depth at Euro or NBA level, we would have had more in the tank. Kay, Creek and Goulding did enough to justify their inclusions, but not the end of bench sitters. I can see the point of having a couple of younger guys sitting on the bench to learn the system, but would they be available to play no minutes?
During Lemanis's tenure:
2014 - 2016 -2019 - [current coach since] * indicates same coach as 2019
Spain: 5th* - 3rd* - 1st* - 2015
Argentina: 11th - top-8* - 2nd* - 2015
France: 3rd* - top-8* - 3rd* - 2009
Serbia: 2nd* - 2nd* - 5th* - 2013
Australia: 12th* - 4th* - 4th* - 2013
Czechia: DNQ - DNQ - 6th* - 2015
USA: 1st - 1st - 7th* - 2019
Lithuania: 4th - top-8 - 9th* - 2016
Italy: DNQ - DNQ - 10th* - 2017
Greece: 9th - DNQ - 11th* - 2017
Russia: DNQ - DNQ - 12th* - 2016
Brazil: 6th - 9th-12th - 13th* - 2017
Canada: DNQ - DNQ - 21st* - 2019
There's a bit of a pattern here. New coaches tend to take time to adjust to international basketball, instituting their system. Their results typically improve over time. This also happened with Goorjian and Brown.
Goorjian: 2004 9th, 2006 9th-16th, 2008 7th
Brown: 2010 10th, 2012 top-8
From this year's top 5, France, Spain, Australia and Serbia had a head coach that was in their 3rd major tournament or more. Argentina's coach was in his 2nd major tournament.
The major underachievers in this World Cup -- the teams that had the talented rosters but failed in this tournament -- nearly all had a head coach with no previous major tournament experience: USA, Lithuania, Brazil, Italy, Greece, Canada.
For Australia to select a new head coach just when our NBA role player generation is able to play with our emerging athletic generation is a huge risk. To sack Lemanis, it should either take a massive failure in 2020, or some sort of Simmons-led mutiny against him.
Also I noticed a mistake for the 6th placed Czech coach. He actually started with them in 2013. It's also worth pointing out that the fact that so many members of that team were familiar playing together. What was it, half of the team plays for the same Czech club?
Realistically, Lemanis is here for Tokyo, and then will probably step down anyway.
That said, honestly, the regular "know it alls" should not be so quick to jump to his defence without reason.
He's not perfect.
It wouldn't hurt to actually have a discussion about some issues.
Do we need to bring in a strategic specialist (to assist him) purely to run end-of-quarter plays?? Is there anyone we'd recommend for that??
If we find ourselves in the same situation next year, through injury, availability, or egos, how do we deal with only having 8~9 players??
I'm certainly not suggesting that there were obvious stand-outs begging for selection, but clearly having Sobey, Gliddon, and Barlow there was quite literally useless.
Question IS, was there a solution that could have been somehow less useless??
We know guys like Simmons and Bolden have huge egos (apparently) So how do we get around that going forward?
I don't doubt it takes some self-belief for Simmons to be as good/bold as he is, but how is it ultimately ego that you think is the issue? His boss has $170m on the line for him to stay fit during a championship window. Loads of other players at that tier made the same decision. Then if he had any intention of having a late change of mind, the Australian media wouldn't have exactly made a positive case.
Bolden made a decision people could consider selfish, but he's young and has a career to build. If he was going to be in Barlow's spot at the end of the bench, he probably figured it would only tarnish his reputation at a critical stage of his career, and that he wouldn't be greatly missed. Not ideal, but his call. Next time around he'll need some combo of being good enough and interested enough just like everyone else.
Was wondering who had put together such a well-research post rjd, makes sense it was you!
Yep, continuity is key when you only come together for a few weeks a year. Australia in a great spot to again be at the point end next year (something that shouldn't be taken for granted when there are 7 brilliant international teams and another group who are very capable), let's hope Simmons is available.
Fact - Simmons in this squad and we would have walked away with a medal.For sure, but I don't think it even needed that. Broekhoff in for Gliddon or Sobey, pushing Goulding down the bench, would've been enough. One bucket off guaranteed silver. But Broekhoff gives you a bit more size on D, and more experience on bigger stages. There were a couple of sequences late where Goulding had rotated onto Gasol or Gobert or whoever it was. Or another where Fournier (I think) had it too easy driving baseline.
"For sure, but I don't think it even needed that"
It's one of those great Butterfly effect questions...
We came within one F/T of guaranteed Silver, and then Spain easily accounted for the Argies, so potentially could have been gold!
So maybe if we had somebody who could have played a couple of minutes somewhere, and then maybe Mills is a fraction less fatigued, and makes that shot.
Or not, unfortunately in real life we can't go back in time to try out our theories LOL
Longley said that. It's spelt Lemanis. And no...
I'm just not an over the top reactionary person. We have over-performed to our potential the last few tournaments and I think we wouldn't be in that position without Lemanis.
We have built a great culture (while other countries haven't) and performed well and are playing the right way. 4th is amazing and we were unlucky (twice) to not medal, but it's not the be all and end all. Some people keep moving the goal posts, but I think if after 2014 you said we'd finish 4th at the Olympics and World Cup leading into the 2020 Olympics, everyone would absolutely take it.
On to the next one.
lemanis totally fucked up. If had used a 12 men rotation through out the WC, the likes of mills, ingles, bogut would have been less fatigued in the semi against Spain and we would have won. Spots 10~12 should have been given to green , makur and adel to let them learn the boomers playing system. I don't see any harm drafting in 2 or 3 youngsters for the WC, gliddon, Barlow, sobey only sit on the bench anyway.
The winners only used a nine man rotation till 1.20 left in the grand final match, those players never got on. Most sides ran nine man rotations.
Re Green and Maker tying their allegiance to Australia, you would think if they are true Australian they will fight for their spot like all players, if not they can play for who ever wants them, if they think there better than all.
anon, they will be nba lottery picks in the next year or two and will be potentially nba all stars.
If you have gifted youngsters like them , we have to do everything to make sure they play for the boomers. We have already missed out on Kyrie Irvine because the Aussie coach did not give a fuck.
Its time for people like you to adjust the mentality, talented players just don't grow on the tree.
Every country would welcome precocious talents like Simmons, Green and Makur maker with open arms, but obviously not Australia.
Some morons here suggested Simmons is not a lock for Tokyo. Are you serious ? An Afl jerk even told Simmons to go back to usa and don't come back to Australia. Some aussies just can't stand the success of fellow aussies with American background (Simmons) or atheletes with refugee background (Makur & Adel)
This is a racist country with many dickheads, that is
"Most sides ran nine man rotations."
In fairness, most sides didn't play as many tough games as us, then double O/T.
That said, Spain seemed to have bounced back ok.
But, we WERE clearly wrecked by the end of the SF, and the BMF.
If we'd had 11, or even 10 guys capable, could we have used them?
Unless you've got players who are a simple like-for-like swap (unlikely at this level) it's hard to run even a 10 man rotation.
Only our guards were wrecked. If he had his time again I'm sure Lemanis finds a way to rest Mills and Dellevadova more. You need to play your bench early in the tournament because if you don't you can't play them later on when the stars need a rest.
It's something to learn from. In Rio we had Goulding, Martin and Lisch off the bench and they played from early on, so there wasn't an issue. He needed to trust Gliddon and Sobey for some minutes against Canada, Senegal and the Dominican Republic.
I don't think a coach had anything to do with Kyrie not representing Australia. A) Whilst recognising he was born here, he doesn't identify with being anything but American and B) I think he'd rather play with a better team with a greater chance of winning, not taking into account these WC.
if our best 12 basketballers are made up of all black players, so be it. Look at France, 8 of their starting 11 who won the football world cup last year were blacks. These is no room for racism in today's society.
unfortunately there are some jerks in this country who are blatant racists. The so called afl legend, Jones whatever his name is,is one good example. There are many posters here who I believe would rather want the likes of gliddon, caddie and bairstow to play before Green, maker and adel in the next Olympics, regardless of the players' abilities, just because they are white.
You're the one being racist Dave - you obviously despise white players. It is what has fueled your incessant ranting on here over the past month.
Wow, France has a majority of black players in football - so? The two finalists in the basketball World Cup had zero black players. It doesn't mean anything.
No Dave...we just want them to earn their spot at selection camp. When you'd rather give them a spot when they’ve done nothing.
The US had 12 NBA players and they finished 7th. And these guys haven’t even performed at college level.
And to suggest that Kyrie ever had any intention of playing for Australia is utter stupidity and show that complete lack of understand and therefore relevance of anything you write.
A few hours ago
"Simmons pulled out, you can't force him to play. When Makur or Adel are good enough and can understand the system the be picked. It's got fuck all to do with racism."
Selecting two bullets is at best nepotism and at worst racism. Neither a great.
Playing Kay over Bolden.
Not selecting Adel.
Their seems to be a theme here.
If Maker isn't selected in the next Boomer team, then I will calling out the racism.
Dave/Makur/Todd, what makes you think all those young players are up to international level? If Lemanis made 3 selections based on potential as suggested, you realise that it would've still been a 9 player rotation, as most highly ranked teams chose to use? Except you are even more screwed because the insurance selections are even less capable of coming into to swap like-for-like within the system.
For at least two decades there haven't been any 9-12 Boomers selections in major tournaments based on potential that have led to a role in the main rotation in subsequent Boomers teams. Did Spain/Argentina/France/etc make any end of bench selections based on potention? Try young players in the qualifiers. Major tournaments is when you select the best team possible.
Let's hear your alternative selections. Lemanis chose a 1/2 guard (to replace Mills/Delly), a shooting 2/3 (if we lost a shooter like Ingles/Goulding), and a 4 (if Kay/Landale went down), each that knows the Lemanis system. You can't choose Bolden, Motum, Maker, Broekhoff, Simmons, Exum as they were unavailable. It might help if you also provided some reasons for your selections.
Keeping Lemanis is insanity.
You have to know the system. That system had our first five struggling against the lesser teams on our journey.
That system has time over seen teams choke when it counts.
Our turnover rate is caused by trying to work through a system, instead of just flowing in offence.
How does Creek not get selected but plays in the rotation like he should be there and then you have 2 players in the initial 12 who sit there like dudds riding the pine all tournament.
Well at least you've stopped criticising him for calling a timeout instead of waiting for a nonexistent one to be called for him.
How does Creek not get selected but plays in the rotation like he should be there and then you have 2 players in the initial 12 who sit there like dudds riding the pine all tournament.Do you think Cooks wasn't going to play?
"You can't choose Bolden, Motum, Maker, Broekhoff, Simmons, Exum as they were unavailable"
Except Motum was available and wanted to play for the team. I've never seen anything but speculation to suggest Motum wasn't able/willing to come into the team once he'd arrived in Spain.
Bolden leaving certainly messed things up, but why was there no contingency plan?
Was Bolden given realistic expectations when chosen for the side? Clearly he and Lemanis had differing ideas. Motum showed in Rio he was willing to play whatever role was offered.
I find it absurd, sure. But the only official talk at the time he was called in was that Lemanis stated upon reflection Barlow was exactly the kind of player they needed. There was no mention of Motum being unavailable beyond speculation from people here and on twitter that because he had already arrived in Spain he "couldn't" leave or "wouldn't want to". This wasn't confirmed anywhere.
By all means, point me in the direction of something to the contrary, but all we can go off is what has been said.
Again, even if we he wouldn't/couldn't return, this is poor player management by the Boomers staff for not having a contingency plan.
No player is guaranteed game time by any coach, you have to work your way into the team, Bolden would've got plenty time had he persisted, imo when he wasn’t starting his bosses would’ve told him get back to training, let’s don’t forget he’s a bench player in the nba.
"Martin and Lisch have been mentioned a few times. Do we know if either of them were actually available?
Surely both better options than Sobey."
Can't imagine Martin saying no, unless injured. He played well pre-season.
I would GUESS those two were seen as "too old"/"not the future"
Martin should have been there. Could actually have played (defensive) minutes, and given Mills & Delly a Breather.
I would have at least liked to see Lisch at the camp and practice games. Very experienced, including Europe, good defensively & offensively.
As for Barlow, FMD, would have been better of with DJ or DK.
OR, if you're going to take duds who won't play, why not take youth for the experience? Naar, WMW, etc.
It's true that running a more sophisticated system will produce more turnovers -- also more assists. Compare us with New Zealand and Serbia, who both run similarly complex offensive systems. Australia, New Zealand and Serbia ran a beautiful offense. To throw it away because of a perception that it causes too many turnovers is like arguing that we shouldn't play intense defense because it causes fouls.
If you remove our last two games, we averaged about the same in turnovers as both those teams.
A lot of Boomers turnovers were just from sloppy plays, offensive fouls, and unforced errors. Especially in the bronze medal game, we encountered problems adjusting to the refereeing. Look at the stretch in the 3rd of the bronze medal game when there were multiple offensive fouls called. The signs were there in the first half that the refs were getting tight calling screens. I thought multiple offensive fouls were total bullshit, but we even have to adapt to bullshit refereeing anyway. 7 offensive fouls were called on the Boomers in that game; but France also copped 6. Adapt.
Individually, you had players like Landale and Bogut both averaging 1.6 turnovers in 18 minutes. Bogut had more of an excuse as a high post facilitator.
We had 22 and 19 turnovers in our last two games. These were attributed to:
6 ball handling turnovers
12 bad pass turnovers
3 offensive fouls
Vs France (bronze)
5 ball handling turnovers
6 bad pass turnovers
1 out of bounds
7 offensive fouls
Spain picked up a lot of loose passes, as you might expect from a strong defensive team. It wasn't the system's fault, it was mostly from not adapting to higher level defense and from lethargy.
Vs France (2nd round)
3 ball handling
8 bad pass
1 shot clock
2 offensive fouls
"if you remove our last two games.."
" To throw it away because of a perception that it causes too many turnovers is like arguing that we shouldn't play intense defense because it causes fouls. "
Except it clearly made our team work far too hard in the opening round, leading them to be tired by the end of the tournament.
"Australia, New Zealand and Serbia ran a beautiful offense"
These teams won all the medals right?
"To throw it away because of a perception that it causes too many turnovers is like arguing that we shouldn't play intense defense because it causes fouls. "
If you're unable to consistently play defense without fouling, and the resulting free throws is costing you games, you absolutely need to look at your defensive strategies.
[We where 10 turnovers away from playing for a gold medal.]
Actually, we were a Patty Mills free throw away from playing for a gold medal.
Patty shot 86% from the line during the world cup but unfortunately missed the one that would've got us there.
The turnovers were our achilles heel, but overall our offense was very good and suited our players. The system may need some tweaks, but the system itself was proven over the past 8 games.
You can't criticise the turnovers without acknowledging that larger context.
~ no sane coach would start
kay over bolden
~ no sane coach would pick
gliddon, sobey, barlow ahead of adel.
~ no sane coach would overplay mills and patty.
they were too tired in the semi final. They were ranked
1st and 2nd with minutes played in the WC
~ no sane coach would pick average players with better "team first" before more skillful, athletic players.
sobey, kay, gliddon, Barlow are pretty average players.
~ a competent coach would keep an eye on the future by picking talented youngsters as 11th, 12th men on the team and slowly integrate them into the team.
"no sane coach would overplay mills and patty."
The only truth in that post. How can 1 guy play as 2 people (as great a Boomer as he has been over the years).
The rest of those pontifications is devoid of rational logic, and shows great deficits in understanding team basketball.
anon, you can't compare the two. NBA is probably 3 levels higher than that nbl as a competition. Bogut is a journeyman in the nba, but he became nbl MVP in his 1st season in the nbl.
Patty averages 10 points in the nba, but he would easily average 25 points a game in the nbl
Nostraballmus says FFS stop saying 'we win gold if Patty makes the free throw ‘ or if the refs don't call the foul on Bogus.
Nostraballmus can see the future but can’t be sure that if Patty knocks down the 2nd freebie that with 4 seconds left Spain don’t advance it(if they had time out left- cant remember) and /or score it anyway.
Game was lost earlier than that blowing the big lead
Andrej Lemanis' message to Australian NBA players: 'The door’s open’
Andrej, the problem is you prefer to pick less talented
nbl players and treated some nba players like idiots, bolden is a good example.
Trying to ignore Dave's rubbish arguments (we are all still waiting for your report on what makes Adel so important to the team), so better to respond to a more sensible poster:
"These teams won all the medals right?"
New Zealand basically always plays above its talent level. It got a lot from its offensive system and clearly lacked talent and depth. Serbia lost to the gold and silver medalists, but otherwise were dominant and would've probably smashed Australia and France. If anything, they arguably struggled when they moved too much away from their usual system to run more through Jokic.
If you want to talk about medal winners, look at the offensive system of each of them. I'm wondering what the alternative offensive system that's being proposed. I hope you are not proposing going back to Brown's iso offense when he first took over. Or Nurse's NBA pick-n-roll offense.
The fact is that we simply don't have the talent on our team to *not* rely on an offensive system like Lemanis uses. Outside of Mills, our core struggle to create their own shot. They are not much as slashers. They're role player types. Only Ingles can run a decent pick-n-roll. Delly can feed a superstar like LeBron in that action, but we clearly don't have that. Although I don't know what happened to the Delly-Baynes pick-n-roll from years back. We have hard working NBA role players, yet the system makes the Australian team run some great offense. That should be enough to prove my point.
Look at the pre-WC odds. Even when Simmons put his hand up. Australia was well behind the likes of USA, Serbia, Spain, France, Greece. Serbia ran into two hot teams. USA's talent was not enough without a good system. Greece arguably tried too hard to let Giannis's talent take over. Canada's simple offense was exposed badly, eventually finishing 21st (behind New Zealand, by the way).
Let's not throw the baby out with the bath water.
"Except it clearly made our team work far too hard in the opening round, leading them to be tired by the end of the tournament."
This again wasn't the system's fault, it was a time management problem. To get to that next level, we need to solve the lethargy problem. Better time management. We did that better in Rio. Mills, Delly and Ingles shouldn't all be top 10 in minutes. More guard depth is vital, which was not available to us in this tournament. Hopefully Simmons and Exum help in that regard. This will help at the offensive end of the floor, but probably even more at the defensive end.
Totally agree he has more "upside" and athleticism?
But where has he shown that he has better defence and offence. And would have been better for the tram either now or in the future other than in your own head?
In which competition or selection camp.
Opportunities are not given, they are earned.
You continue to lack this understanding!!!
"Opportunities are not given, they are earned."
Sobey and Spuddee say otherwise.
"Why is Adel better than the likes of sobey, gliddon and Barlow ?"
Umm, he has two legs and a Pulse?
Even I would have been a better option. My arse can play a 2-3 zone defence all by itself.
"Opportunities are not given, they are earned."
"Sobey and Spuddee say otherwise."
A backup guard spot that can play the 1 was always likely. In the camp, that was between McCarron and Sobey. Both played ALL Asia qualification games and excelled in them. You are saying that's not earned?
People talk like we have more talented guards available. Or are you following reasoning like Boti: just select the best players, such that there are no backup guards that can play the 1? It's Boomers Smyth-sonian logic. Look how many minutes Delly/Mills/Ingles played as it is. Look at how much we relied on Mills off-the-ball motion to generate offense. Imagine if Delly went down injured and we had no Sobey/McCarron.
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